Which would you rather fly if your life depended..

[flaps737]

I'd take a 38, two engines (warplane engines were pushed very hard, prone to failure), easily identified (wont be mistaken for a 109 like a 51 or a 190 like a jug, which could happen with excited b17 gunners, remember, no red icons!). Also, may not be quite as fast, but better climb rate and higher ceiling.  P38 was also the only US fighter designed from the start with a bubble canopy.  so up until 47D and 51D, still would have a visibility advantage.  and low level attack having 2 engines is an obvious advantage.  As tough as jug was, 1 oil cooler hit or propeller damage you're gonna have to ditch or jump.

[WhiteHawk]

Originally posted by vorticon
tempest or p51...p51 is all you americans ever hear about because its a american plane...

Regale us vorticon..Can u post some stats or comments about the performance of the tempest in this vital role?

Does it perform well at high altitudes?  
What was the main escort fighter for the Brits?
How is its range?
Ground attack survivablility?

I choose the p47 simply because of the flight sims I have flown that have offered a career choice.  (EAW, CFS1) to name acupple.
That is as educated as I can get.  The Jugs numbers are outstanding as far as survivability.  (I wil find the numbers later),
Even though it doesnt rack up the kills, it does force the nme to either break from attack or die.  At high altitude, and I remeber,
I think it was Francis Gabreski, saying, "The p47 could corkscrew up and up and the nme could not follow."  This is far removed from any of the flight sims I have flown, but I have to believe a
WW2 fighter pilot who survived a good part of the Air war in Europe over the modelers of cyber airplanes.
  Combine this with the diving ability and the P47 could 'disengage at will."
  So for my decision, the Jug could force the nme to break off attack from the bomber forms, or could drag the nme away from the formations, completing the first part (escort) of thier mission.
  As far as ground attack, the Jugs performance is well documented.  Awesome firepower in just its 8x .50s'.  Survivablility second to none.
  I have heard that the p38 wasnt very competitive in the European air war, and I am curios as to why?
  were there any p38 aces in europe?  
  If so, then who?
  Maybe the 109's were the answer to the p38?

[B17Skull12]

spitmk14 for me:D

[davidpt40]

Believe you fellas are forgetting a big factor.  A spitfire cannont operate under military power for very long and still have fuel to return to base.

[NOD2000]

Originally posted by WhiteHawk
I have heard that the p38 wasnt very competitive in the European air war, and I am curios as to why?
  were there any p38 aces in europe?  
  If so, then who?
  Maybe the 109's were the answer to the p38?

No, there is a good reason why the Germans refered to the P-38 as "The Forked tailed devil". The main reason that I understand is that they p-38's alisons didn't operate as well in the cold air (expecially at high alt in europe), plus I have also read that the aircraft upkeep by ground crews wasn't all that hot in europe.

heres some quotes from a web site

"The P-38 would eventually begin to have problems operating in the ETO. With the introduction of the P-38 J, accidents and engine problems begin to rise significantly. The 'J' model had the ability to produce 1600 hp at war emergency power (WEP). Stateside testing encountered no problems, but it was a different story in Britain. Many problems were a result of inexperienced pilots, and the problems coincided with the arrival of these pilots to the battlefield. These problems would take time to correct, but General Doolittle did not want to wait for these problems to be worked out, and decided to phase out the P-38 in favor of the P-51 and the P-47."

"In combat, experienced pilots flying the P-38 were able to cope with the best German fighters. Being outnumbered, and usually limited to escorting duties, the P-38s scored over 2,500 kills at the loss of about 1,750 P-38s. These losses included losses of all types, which not only included combat, but also accidents and mechanical problems. A more realistic kill ratio was 2:1, but that was mostly when flying outnumbered. The P-38s flew 130,000 sorties at a loss of 1.3% (1.3 lost P-38s for every 100 missions flown). This could be compared to B-17, which at times was about 25%."

"The P-38s were also hard to maintain. Very tight cowled engines made it difficult to ground crews perform maintenance. Landing gear shocks would leak when it got very cold. Turbochargers would freeze up at high altitudes. To make matters worse, the turbochargers only had two settings, low (not enough to sustain high altitude flight) and high (more likely to blow up). There were instances of pilots flying much lower just to warm up, and in the process, exposed themselves to AA fire."

http://p-38online.com/arrival.html

also i have read about the tactics abserved by B-17 gunners (note: most pilots don't tend to tell their tactics they just tell about the kill in bio's). Basically the way the lightnings got a 190 or 109 off their tail was to pull up into a stall and have a wing man hang way way back, when the stall was at its peak the P-38 due to not haveing any torque would hang strait up; while the 109 or 190 fell to the left (usually) then the wing man would come by and slash the german fighter in one pass (while its in the stall) and if there were two or more german fighters; all that was needed to hit all of them, while in the stall was a little rudder...... this tactic was observed by gunners up until mid april 45 so they must have figured out how to fool the luftwaffe.

hope that awnsers your questions

[Widewing]

P-47 Thunderbolt. It had the lowest loss to sortie ratio of any fighter in the ETO. Why? It was built like the proverbial brick outhouse (unlike the examples modeled in AH) and had the most durable engine installed in any Allied fighter.

Fly any other fighter and your chances of not getting home goes up by nearly 50%. Sounds rediculous?

In the ETO, all causes loss rate per sortie by type:
P-47 - 0.7%
P-51 - 1.2%
P-38 - 1.7%

Remember, by mid-summer of 1944, the bulk of P-47s were involved in close support and interdiction with the balance flying deep penetration escort and strafing everything in sight on the way back. The percentage of P-47s coming home with battle damage was three times higher than the P-51, but they suffered little more than half the loss rate. What that means is a far lower percentage of Mustangs made it home after suffering battle damage.

P-38 losses reflect the severe engine reliability problems encountered in late '43 through mid '44. The loss of an engine over Germany meant that your chances of not getting home increased by a factor of 4. Of course, the loss of an engine in any other fighter meant an a nearly automatic visit in luft stalag.

I'd take the Jug every time if getting home was the sole criteria.

My regards,

Widewing

[Tilt]

Originally posted by WhiteHawk

  Did the spit14 and the Tempest escort lancs into germany?
  How did they perform?
  Can u justify your decision?

RAF Lancs flew mostly at night............... the  US took their own escorts.........

P51 had range.

The Tempest was actually  used mostly as a strike aircraft plus it was fairly expensive beside the P51.

Choice offerred was that of the pilot............would have been a strange pilot to turn down speed/performance and firepower over range.

The General would have chosen range over every thing. Hence the P51.

Spits escorted every thing.......

Given that you have your theoretical mission in a ground attack mode on the way back then I would go for the Tempest.

[Guppy35]

If I'm flying out of England on bomber escort to Germany, then I want a P51, even with the ground strafing.  

If I'm based on the continent, post D-Day then I want a Spit XIV, although it might be that in an escort role, the FIX with a 90 gallon drop tank was the way to go.  Quoting F/L Terry Spencer's Diary from 41 Squadron when they were fed up with chasing V-1s in Spit XIIs.

August 7, 1944:  "Rumored that we are to get XIV's shortly.  Bloody good show if we can go to France with an XIV Wing.  Otherwise I'd rather have IXs and come off Doodlebugging"

(The IXs were at that point being used to escort Lancs and Halifaxes on daylight raids.)

And if I'm based out of Italy, flying north to Germany, then I think I want a 38 as they seemed to have better luck with the 38 flying with the 15th AF

Dan/Slack

[MaddDog]

out of those planes listed, i think id have to go with the jug as well, survivability plus its overall a pretty good fighter, id definetly go with the jug.

[Karnak]

It wasn't on the list, but I'll sign up for a Mosquito NF.Mk XXX to defend the Lancaster and Halifax streams.

I think it'd give me pretty good odds.  Not only is it faster than any of the German nightfighters, but the vast majority of contacts the Germans pick up on radar will be Lancs or Halibags whereas all hostile contacts I pick up will be German nightfighters.

Enjoy your flights in the sun boys.  I'll see you at the end of the war.  Maybe.

[HoHun]

Hi Nod,

>No, there is a good reason why the Germans refered to the P-38 as "The Forked tailed devil".

Until someone comes up with an authentic Luftwaffe WW2 quote, I consider that a myth. The vast majority of German pilots writes about the P-38 as "Lightning", some just call it "P-38", but I've not even found a single mention of the infamous "Gabelschwanzteufel".

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

[Angus]

High Escort? Spitfire Mk IX or XIV, depending on what model is in service.
Return home cruising at 30K, better high alt performance than the Luftwaffles:D

[Nilsen]

jug.

[Dowding]

Tempest.

But I like Karnak's idea too.

[WhiteHawk]

So far the tally is

P47....8
p38...4
p51...3.5  (halfs go to the  'id take a xxx or a xxxx' guys.)
spits...2.5
tempests...2.5
And 1 daredevil wants to try a mossie:eek:

Thanks for the response  this si pretty interesting


Still curios as to who were the p38 aces in Europe?  If any.