Real World Tactics?

[ISHMAEL]

If Desert Fighters has been cancelled, that's the first I've heard of it.

ISHMAEL

[jmccaul]

Ishmael your answer doesn't really satisfy me it avoids the main issues which I feel need to be addressed but this is partly my fault due to my long rambling post. I will now break down my feelings why this idea at the moment wouldn't work in a 24/7 arena. I could be wrong nobody will really know until it is tested 24/7 server with a 100's of people in the arena.
1) You say you want to encourage more realistic player behaviour as it is to unrealistic at the moment i.e. Not disengaging enough, furballing, taking opponents on against the odd. The way you do this though is inherently unrealistic. You give pilots with long "live" streaks better planes than there country men this would not happen, you give these planes unrealistic performance boosts and also give these player extra skills and abilities as if they were magicians. All this is not realistic. Also pilots would take planes on against the odds, when large groups of planes met they furballed and did not run away from fights. Admirably though I feel people furball a bit much but it is there money.


2) Unfortunately your unrealistic artificial rewards for long kill streaks will reduce the amount of air combat drastically for those who have a streak of note. This would get boring, there is nothing more fun than going into an against the odds battle and coming out on top. Your system would reduce these circumstances many fold.


3) Your system rules the game so people who do not like it are driven away purely because the way it is setup.The amount of people who will not like the system will be large as I suspect any one with a k/d ratio of less than 1 : 1 would feel aggrieved that they will not get a chance to fly the favourite planes such as the P51-d or spit14 because only the good players get these planes. Also there is no greater joy for the average player than to shoot down a good player but this will happen a lot less if you have to take on a spit14 in a P-39. There is a time and place for strict penalties - scenario's.


4) You will have a situation where at least 50% of people have nothing to lose as they only have kill streaks of 0 or 1 so your system not only denies this majority of an even fight but the tension and fearing of death your system is supposed to give.


5) Also you say this encourages teamwork as people group together or protection but this isn't teamwork, in fact your system discourages teamwork as it is completely based on individual success. Whose is going to risk there streak to save a fellow country man in a 3v1, or go on a daring raid to capture an enemy field when they could be safe cruising away at 30 000 feet ready to dive away at the sight of an nme and perhaps taking an occasional flying shot at some low performance plane circa 1939.


6) You do not have much experience in WB or AW I was wondering maybe you found these sims boring because you got shot down a lot.


   I have thought of more points but have left them out for brevity ( this is brief!). I will say that on testing of the concept not all these factors may appear if the idea was tested but I believe the idea just will not work at the moment because to much about it is wrong at present that is not to say it is not without merit.

P.S. Your dad is a preacher..... Now I see where you get your faith in ideas with little evidence to back them up.
 
P.S. I would appreciate specific reaction to each point on why I am wrong not vague politicians mumbling on why your idea is great.

[Ozymandias_KoK]

Read the news on any gaming site -- Sierra went out and zapped several titles, Bablyon 5, a Middle Earth RPG, Desert Fighters, and Pro Pilot something or other.  Was yesterday IORC.

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TKoKFKA-OZDS-


[This message has been edited by Ozymandias_KoK (edited 09-23-1999).]

[Granger]

Dweebwarrior I

In the arena you describe Ish, you seem to miss out on a few things.

1)-Death..if death has such a weighted penalty attached to it how are you ever going to find a fight?

Once you get a few kills under your pilots belt, you will take off far away from the action (taking off from a field getting vulched would be suicide of course.

You will only engauge the enemy when you have the advantage. (You might be balsy enough for a 1 on 1..but id bet youd be in a faster plane..just in case..)


Dogfites will be a thing of the past, (I'm not gonna risk MY pilots life in a furball !)

You would prey on the weak and newbies of the arena in your shiny 190 or p-51. (newbies of course flying f4-f's or ol' p40's)

Risk of death would overcome all and force you to behave this way, its the only way your pilot could survive many missions.
There is nothing wrong with this per say.but an arena that forces everyone to value life so greatly,and forcing all to behave like scared rats with no desire to get killed.
Nobody likes to die, but it happens..all the time, every day in our sim lives..it happens.

When your squad needs you to go in under heavy fire and bust that ack, what are you going to do?

When you are ordered to attack that 17 that has gunners from hell what will you do?

When your wingman is smokin bad and needs scortin back to base with 3 or 4 bad guys chasin him what will you do?

Avoiding death? absolutely nothing.
Give it hell, all you got, do or die knowing you will probably auger in in the process?

Somehow I can't see you doing the latter..not with your precious Pilots life on the line.
 
BTW, in aw3, in b land..there is a pilot named Zazen. Anyone that flies FR knows him, or of him. He averages 400 kills per tour, with maybe..MAYBE 3 to 6 deaths. How does he accomplish such a feat..easy. He follows the guidelines listed above..preys on weak and inferior aircraft, never attacks unless he has a huge advantage, and is always in a lightning fast plane..(I think he flies the 190-D9..maybe the A8.) Hes always up there in points, but a guy like that is pretty much worthless to have around doing mundane missions for a squad. Hes a loner and only cares about himself..he will circle high above and watch his countrymen die below him whiles hes up there in the stratosphere..waiting and watching like a buzzard for a smokin or ammoless enemy breaks and heads back to base. Is this wrong? not at all, but its just not something that 98% of us want to do. I have many friends I have met in aw3, and believe me..if im gonna die tryin to save one of my buddies in a furball so be it. For me, thats what makes these type sims so great..the comraderie and friendship, depending on each other and knowing when you see a squadmate, help is on the way..


Just my .02..ok..maybe a nickles worth


Granger

[Tomb]

so whos going to log on and risk thier one life flying a stuka...who would bother...you have outlined the ultimate fiter dweeb game and thier is nothing realistic about that and you reward the "ace" for getting better while the essential stuka is just target practice...

i would award the points to the stuka fodder.

i would also have a limit on the planes  if side A loses all its uber rides thats thier fault and a penalty for throwing them away/using them up...the reward would be more points for flying the essential or boring stuff...these point could be "spent" on flying a better plane which you lose if you die or upgrading to better plane if avaible..of course if you have earned a lot of points flying stuka missions maybe you have enough to buy your ride again...(if still availble)

this way you have something to gain while adding to the game itself...some one has to fly the less glamoruos stuff. what you propose is selfish and not good for a game though i too believe the fighter jock furball mentallity will change.

if red baron 2 had ever become an effective on line game it would have shown the way...it did not its best played as stand alone. i fly many one life scenarios in WB and have flown AW also and know of the excitment of trying to land my one misrable life on a CV with only one gear down and a fuel leak...the combat was tame compared to this..

the players who need rewarding are those who fly the stuff that makes the game such as the buff and stuka boys and those who have to fly the obsolete equipment...not some dude in the latest and greatest ride...

OAE will simply be boring becuse who is going to be interested in flying the other "stuff" to boost some dudes hot ride score...not me....if i got lotsa of points for flying the other stuff maybe so.

Tomb  

[Jochen]

 

My Dad's a preacher....that's explains everything.

Billy-Ray was a Preacher's son, And when his daddy would visit he'd come along,
When they gathered round and started talking,
That's when Billy would take me walking, Through the back yard we'd go walking,
Then he'd look into my eyes, Lord knows to my suprise -

The only one who could ever reach me, Was the son of a preacher man,
The only boy who could ever teach me, Was the son of a preacher man,
Yes he was, he was, ooh yes he was.

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Oblt. jochen 'Stern von Afrika' 2./ Jagdgeschwader 27 'Afrika'


[This message has been edited by Jochen (edited 09-23-1999).]

[Bombjack]

*THWAPS a pointing-stick into a big picture of Jochen taped to a blackboard*

And this, gentlemen, is what can happen if you fly that FW190 for too long...

 

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-bmjk-
617 Squadron RAF

[SpinDry]

The Wuerger is the only plane, grasshopper.  Spread the Hate in 20MM enemas so they know you mean it.

Seriously, check out my ranting on the thread I just kicked off; I think I explain the how and why of what Ish actually accomplished well enough.  I gotta add, the highest-scoring pilot in the test war was a bomber jockey, and he was a real in-yer-face hero IMHO.  It really worked, but I have to admit everyone there WANTED it to work, except one pain in the a** who was kicked out and banned for his troubles.  It's a sad-but-true fact there'd have to be some clubs around to use on the troublemakers.

As far as furballs, dogfights, fighting from advantage, and all that ... wtf?  Has Bullethead left you mutts adrift for too long?  You mean there's another way to fight?  Fair fights are for the schoolyard, mon ami.  The best kill is the one who doesn't know he's meat until the enemas explode in his face, and the killers I know from Ish's deal racked up their scores by not being happy unless they were killing something.  Hardly the attitude of slacker trying to save his skin, nope.  The trick is learning how to shed lots of blood and not dying in the process.  Doesn't take fancy ACM, it takes knowing when you've got a sucker and when it's time to extend and restock -- and then coming back to kill them on your terms.

<EG>

[Toad]

The one thing all games of this type lack: mission orientation.

There is no real objective that has to be accomplished. I'm not sure you can put that into a game that runs 24/7 and which people pay to play.

If you basically try to emulate "one life" through various devices, it's going to be a tough sell.

Can one create a _game_ that can engender the necessary emotions to make a FW pilot repeatedly make passes on a closely-packed bomber stream that's guarded by higher squadrons of P-51's?

Not in a game...those bombers aren't headed for your house and homeland. No game administrator is going to be able to order you to the Russian front as an infantryman if you want to take a "pass" on that day's flying.

Bottom line is that people still play _games_ for _fun_.

If it's NOT fun...they won't play.

If you make the "death penalty" too high, people will lose interest pretty quickly, I'd wager.

[ISHMAEL]

If you make the "death penalty" too high, people will lose interest pretty quickly, I'd
wager.
----------

I completely agree. The key is "balance."

As I stated in one of my original posts on this subject, players do not receive electric shocks upon being shot down! :-)

The OAE system is rewards based, rather than punative. It is also designed to appeal to the player's sense of adventure.

Combat flight sims provide immediate rewards for engaging in combat: the thrill of the contest. Rewards for life preservation must be designed to provide a balance only against the desire for immediate gratification of the desire for action. Ideally, they should also model the increasing value of real-world experienced pilots.

In this way, true heroics become possible. The pilot who risks his own life to save that of a comrade has really done something worthy of note (in game terms). Without some risk, there can be no heroics.

Speaking for myself, I can see no reason to spend 30$/month to enter a sim world where true adventure is impossible - especially when I currently participate and officiate combat games based on the OAE (on the other hand, I would CERTAINLY pay $30+/month to participate in a persistant game universe based upon the OAE).

Red Baron 3D's 64 player MMP, combined with the player-modified flight models, damage models, and additional aircraft and ground vehicles created by players, continues to prove itself an ideal platform for running immersive and semi-persistant, campaign-style games.

If there are any persons reading this forum who might be interested in seeing how (and if) the OAE works in practice, I encourage them to pick up a copy of Red Baron 3D and join us in the AirWar or the next Historical War.

For more information, check out these Web sites:  http://www.delphi.com/airwar/  http://www.netvector.com/redbaron/

ISHMAEL

[Toad]

After wading through the other topics that discuss this OAE system, I think HT has it right.

While you're own extremely limited experiment has satisfied you that you have the right answer, there is a wealth of evidence suggesting that the majority of of on-line ACM players do not desire the gaming experience you so clearly believe in.

You yourself admit to limited/no experience in either Main Arena or Scenario play in either WB or AW. Like it or not, these two games presently lead this category and thus pretty much present the "target market" of an on-line ACM game.

As previously discussed by many others, Historical Scenarios and Arenas just don't draw the crowds that Main Arenas do. This isn't an endorsement of one style over another, it's simply a business fact.

While there is undoubtedly is a market for the OAE experience you suggest, I agree with HT that it is most likely too small to entirely support any ACM game and generate a profit.

Don't give up. Continue to experiment and refine your idea. Every field needs visionary theorists.

Once AH gets up and running, perhaps you can convince HT to let you set up an arena as you envision on-line ACM. I think AH will provide you with a seasoned, serious customer base to try out your ideas.

Good luck!

[ISHMAEL]

Don't give up. Continue to experiment and refine your idea. Every field needs visionary
theorists.
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It is certainly possible to disagree over a purely theoretical concept and respect the opposing view point. Though your own experience leeds you to believe that the OAE concept is not (mass)marketable, I compliment you on your willingness to entertain the idea.

The OAE system remains untested. I can't claim any hard evidence outside of my own experience and limited testing to support my belief that it would have mass appeal. Unsurprisingly however, I remain convinced that it is a good idea that can (and someday will) revolutionize online games (of many genres).

Until the concept has been put to the test, little emperical evidence will exist to support my belief. My hope is that some game developer will eventually take note and invest the resources required to research and test the concept.

If it works (as I believe it will) the payoff could be enourmous. The system would provide a unique feature to the first online sim to employ it and it could perhaps attract thousands of new customers to per-per-play online gaming who might otherwise have restricted themselves to the single-player experience or "free" MMP games like Red Baron 3D (such as myself).

Furthermore, if the effects on combat tactics are as I predict (and limited testing has shown) then many "hard-core" simmers may be drawn to an environment where they can encounter more frequent use of "real world tactics."

In conclusion, by way of responce to some of the criticisms of the OAE that have been made by others in posts I could not respond to directly, I would like to add these final remarks....

Our tests under the OAE system have shown:
1. Players still take risks - but fewer of them and of lesser extremity.
2. Players still come to the rescue of teammates - even against the odds (but do tend to give less extreem assistance).
3. Players with more experienced alter-egos tend to "shepherd" the less-experienced alter-egos (as keeping everyone alive helps the team and helps their own chances of survival in the long term).
4. Less skilled players suffer less from the deaths of their OAEs - minimizing the "disappointment" factor
5. The historical value of combat experience for living pilots is "accurately" modeled (death depleats a valuable or potentially valuable human resource - not just a piece of hardware).
6. The subjective "immersive" feel of the game is reportedly increased (I can now testify to this first hand).
7. Players are never prevented from playing the game. They can always create a new alter ego and immediately rejoin the action  (though this was not the case in our tests)
8. OAEs are not the same as "role playing characters." They have no unique characteristics. They have "powers" and "bonuses" that grow in a linear direction (making all equal OAEs share identical characteristics). The player still provides the intelligence, motives and personality.
9. Minimizing loses is now a legitimate goal of any "mission" or offencive/defencive action.
10. The player's individual success is MORE INTIMATELY tied to his team's success.

If anyone should like to get in touch with me regarding this system, I invite them to send me an email: christopher.ash@home.com

ISHMAEL

[jmccaul]

Hey ish you still are not answering specific critisms you have done exactly what i asked you not do just post saying OAE is good, except you seem to be doing it with less confidence then you did originally when you were making statements like

THIS IDEA WILL WORK I'M JUST HERE TO INFORM YOU IT WILL

ANY COMPANY THAT USES OAE CANNOT LOSE

IT WILL REVOLUTIONIZE MMP GAMES

now you are saying

IT NEEDS TESTING AND TWEAKING

I THINK IT WILL WORK

 

[SpinDry]

Aww, we twit Ish all the time over in RB-land for being a used-car salesman, and a damned pushy one at that.  But we did tell him to put up or shut up, and damned if he didn't deliver.  It's not for everyone and it's still got refining to suffer but you know, you guys are giving him the same grief he got over there so he's heard it all before, and most of the nay-saying stuff turned out just not to be true.

His success was just a prototype, sure, but how many prototypes blew up on the runway and killed the test driver?  His took off and flew pretty damned good, if not perfectly.  Yeah, the RB crowd tends to be more polite and stuff than the usual baby-seal-clubbing gomers (now I'm getting hungry) in the WW2 sims, but he's not totally full of sh*t, really.  He comes on like afterburners but to his credit he worked his bellybutton off the whole time his war was running and made it happen.

Just give his ideas some thought, why don't ya, and look past the hype to the nuggets he's got worked out.  Then go kill something in case you start feeling too polite afterwards. <bg>

[Toad]

My primary observation is that the OAE idea is extrapolated from a very limited and not necessarily relevant testing protocol.

1. We asked a few guys what they thought was lacking in on-line ACM.

OK, fine...good idea.

2. We came up with an idea that might work.

Super, press on.

3. We got 30 or so of our like-minded friends to try this idea out. We tossed one guy that didn't fit the gung-ho profile.

Uh-oh...this is not a representative sample of on-line acm-ers is it?

4. We played by these rules a few missions at certain predetermined times/dates.

So the 24/7 environment hasn't been tested at all?

5. We played a game on service that is free of charge.

...and the "pay-to-play" element was totally missing.

6. We, the originators of this idea, were the sole judges of success or failure of the experiment. We found it succeeded beyond our expectations.

Raise any red flags here?

7. We now declare this concept fully validated and ready for "prime time".

Say, you don't work for the U.S. Government by any chance do you? <g>


As HT pointed out, not everyone plays for the same reasons. For everyone seeking the elusive "true realism" there are apparently herds of paying customers crowding into what are basically "fantasy" arenas.

Without going into the "but they didn't do it MY way" argument, it's clear that the AW FR arenas and the WB HA arenas don't get the play that the Mains attract. Perhaps the unwashed paying masses like what they like?

I think it's a bit premature to suggest that OAE is "the" answer based on such a limited test.

Still, that is not to say the idea has no merit. It just really hasn't ever been tested in the pay-to-play environment. I think HT is pretty smart in going with what he knows and what he knows will work, rather than betting the farm on an essentially untested hypothesis.

Always time to experiment _after_ you've paid a few bills.