Author Topic: Real World Tactics?  (Read 727 times)

ISHMAEL

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Real World Tactics?
« on: September 21, 1999, 12:35:00 PM »
The following is quote from the front page of this Web site:

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Aces High is about the science and art of air combat.  It is designed to be very representative of air combat through the use of real world tactics.
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The makers of this Online Only Sim are claiming that they have DESIGNED the product with the specific aim of encouraging use of "real world tactics."

I ask, What *is* this design that will encourage such tactics? Why should I expect to see greater use of "real world tactics" in Aces High than I might expect to see in Air Warrior or Warbirds (or for that matter Desert Fighters *free* MMP?).

I have presented a cohesive plan for HOW real world tactics CAN be encouraged (and thus used as a marketing angle) in an online only flight combat simulation (for more details on this subject, I encourage new readers to review the "How to Conquer the Flight Sim Market" and "An Epistle to Ishmael" threads). This plan has enjoyed limited testing and has met with great success - it awaits a more extencive testing for conclusive results.

What plan does Aces High currently have in place to encourage use of "real world tactics" by paying members? Does it have a plan?

If not, what reason can it provide for *NOT* developing such a plan? How is the current marketing angle justified in the absence of a plan?

If it *DOES* have a plan for encouraging use of "real world tactics" - as the marketing would suggest - what is this plan?

The Online Alter Ego system is designed to produce the results that the makers of this sim claim to desire. Should it then be so quickly dismissed?

ISHMAEL

-towd_

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Real World Tactics?
« Reply #1 on: September 21, 1999, 12:40:00 PM »
can u picture him playin a organ with a crazed expression like captain nemo in 20,000 leages ?

"they destroyed me and now i will destroy them,  full speed ahead"

heheehe

Offline SC-GreyBeard

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      • http://www.picknowl.com.au/homepages/oneshot/main.htm
Real World Tactics?
« Reply #2 on: September 21, 1999, 01:03:00 PM »
Really, liked his idea, but he's worn it out....

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GreyBeard
Flt Ldr
Skeleton Crew

ISHMAEL

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Real World Tactics?
« Reply #3 on: September 21, 1999, 01:05:00 PM »
I would like to add these points:

#1. I am very excited by the Aces High product and look forward to the beta test.
#2. Some of the featues (like the weapon loadout screen) are very innovative and appear extreemly user-friendly.
#3. The graphics look beautiful!
#4. The weapon and flight modeling sound astonishingly detailed and feature-rich!

MANY of these elements contribute to the immersivness of the player experience and some have an impact upon tactics.

HOWEVER - I maintain that we can have no hope of "real world tactics" being used by players in the absence of some modeling of the >real world conditions< underwhich combat took place: specifically, the undesirability of "death."

To encourage use of "real world tactics," some system needs be developed to model the pilot's "will to live." The OAE "rewards-based" system is one such model.

ISHMAEL

Rolo

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Real World Tactics?
« Reply #4 on: September 21, 1999, 01:35:00 PM »
Ish,

Methinks you should adopt the name of your captain, as I believe you have found your whale.

Rolo

Sixr

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Real World Tactics?
« Reply #5 on: September 21, 1999, 01:39:00 PM »
Or Renfield from Dracula

ISHMAEL

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Real World Tactics?
« Reply #6 on: September 21, 1999, 01:46:00 PM »
Rolo:

LOL!!! :-)  

Moby Dick is indeed my favourite novel of all time - and the origin of my moniker.

ISHMAEL
~~--->>

Offline jmccaul

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Real World Tactics?
« Reply #7 on: September 21, 1999, 02:13:00 PM »
   Silly Plonk and Ishmael you disappoint me I was looking forward to a nice war of words but I'm afraid it has degenerated into mutual backslapping please do not keep this up and since the topic has moved to a new post I hope you can reignite your hatred.
   On a more serious note I am still having trouble seeing your idea working in it's current form on a 24/7 server. As many people have pointed out before your idea and your test is very much like a scenario. I will describe a scenario in more detail as far as I have experienced it in AW, I will also comment on why it is similar/dissimilar to your test. In a scenario you only get one life which creates tension like your OAE system does but it in a different way. In a scenario everything is organised so people fly in groups with a definite game plan and objectives which creates a feeling of being a team which is part of the fun. Your test will be similar to this in the fact that it is flown by people who know each other and therefore will find it much easier to work in a team making this similar to a scenario although probably not the same level of organizeaction. I also assume these flights are flown in a similar time frame to the scenario. So to sum up the similarities you have created an environment very similar to that of a scenario which is FUN. Now here comes the part in which I believe your idea has shortcomings Ishmael :
   1) While the your setup is similar to scenario I do not believe it is as good due to the fact everyone in your group flies the same plane regardless of ability and also planes of opposing teams are a historical match and also the planning is not done on the fly. Obviously a major attraction is just 1 life and as your system is designed for 24/7 play it can't have one life so instead it has huge advantages for long surviving pilots but in my opinion this decreases balance and realism ( squadron leader to pilot officer : I'll have this spit 14 you have that  hurri 1 - this is not realistic)
   2) When you analyse a scenario it's probably 2 hours of flying around and 15 minutes of action this is compensated for by the tension(for everyone not just those with a kill streak) , team work, and knowing you are playing on a level playing field. I just don't see how your system can create this atmosphere on a 24hour basis as many players will not have any sort of substantial kill streak and the main arena is not organised so many players will be flying around on their own with no definite objectives and when you haven't got these factors but still have the 2 hours of flying and 15mins of action it will not be fun for a sizeable proportion of the arena.

   On a separate point about the award scheme for long streaks is the fact you will give ace's better visibility to indicate superior situational awareness(SA) of a RL ace but RL aces did not have better eyesight they had better SA i.e. They probably to look around more, look harder and look in the right places the same is true in sims, better pilots have better SA not better eyesight this idea is nonsensical.    

P.S. Ishmael i would appreciate a well thought out well argued response as i agree with your basic principal that lives should be more costly

P.P.S  You've read all this are you MAD?

Brick

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Real World Tactics?
« Reply #8 on: September 21, 1999, 03:16:00 PM »
Hehehe... I just wanna see these two go at it in the air.    They should be good 'n worked up by the time the AH beta is out!

Andy

Offline popeye

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Real World Tactics?
« Reply #9 on: September 21, 1999, 03:25:00 PM »
Of course, Ish only gets one life.  Sure hope he doesn't crash on the first takeoff.  

popeye
KONG

Where is Major Kong?!?

silly plonk

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Real World Tactics?
« Reply #10 on: September 21, 1999, 03:46:00 PM »
Ish and I are friends now.

Go find your own sandbox!

:b

 

S.P.

Offline Ping

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Real World Tactics?
« Reply #11 on: September 21, 1999, 06:04:00 PM »
ME GAWD...are all Canadians this pushy Ish?
I/JG2 Enemy Coast Ahead


ISHMAEL

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Real World Tactics?
« Reply #12 on: September 21, 1999, 07:39:00 PM »
Are all Canadians this pushy? No...

My Dad's a preacher....that's explains everything. ;-)

ISHMAEL

ISHMAEL

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Real World Tactics?
« Reply #13 on: September 21, 1999, 08:59:00 PM »
This is a reply to jimccaul:

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In a scenario everything is organised so people fly in groups with a definite game plan and objectives which creates a feeling of being a team which is part of the fun.
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The OAE system doesn't require people to fly with any kind of organization. However, as formation flying and team tactics make susrvival more likely, the existence of an OAE system PROMOTES such activities without requiring them as a condition of participation.

Players are free to fly when they want and with whome they want where they want. Many will CHOOSE to arrange to meet friends for team flights in order to promote their personal survival.

Once again, if you simulate real world conditions, real world tactics will result naturally - without any additional complications.

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Your test...is flown by people who know each other and therefore will find it much easier to work in a team
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As a matter of fact, few of the players in the Historical War knew each other. Furthermore, each participant was ANNONYMOUS. Only >I< knew their real identity. Each player assumed the name of his current alter ego and other players knew him/her only by that name. When the alter ego died, that was the end for that persona.

This kind of scenario need not exist in a more relaxed OAE environment however. Players may re-use the same name for all of their alter egos. Only their stats are reset upon death.

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Obviously a major attraction is just 1 life and as your system is designed for 24/7 play it can't have one life so instead it has huge advantages for long surviving pilots
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Remember that pilots can only survive long IF THEY ARE SKILLED IN COMBAT OR SUPERIOR TACTICIANS. Demonstrated skill is the only means to success.

Many people have refered to the OAE as a "kill streak" system. This is inaccurate. The system rewards long life with experience and kills with base points. More experienced alter egos have a multiple applied to these base points.

To become experienced, one need not make a single kill. Experience is gained by time spent in the combat area. Rank, medals, or other awards are a product of points but experience is a product of combat time.

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When you analyse a scenario it's probably 2 hours of flying around and 15 minutes of action this is compensated for by the tension(for everyone not just those with a kill streak) , team work, and knowing you are
playing on a level playing field.
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Tension would also be increased on the 24/7 combat arena as a result of the OAE system, however there may be many more engagements. The OAE compensates the cautious player by rewarding actions that lead to survival. It also provides all players with an ongoing challenge (rather than just a series of minor combats).

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On a separate point about the award scheme for long streaks is the fact you will give ace's better visibility to indicate superior situational awareness(SA) of a RL ace but RL aces did not have better eyesight they had better SA
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Eyesight would not be improved. The hat switch and other manual views would operate the same for all pilots. The proposal (and it is only one proposal) is that long lived OAEs be given a greater range for their automatic tracking keys - to simulate the improved SA that comes of combat experience.

This WOULD remain a measure of the player's skill - as more skilled players would tend to fly the longer-lived alter egos more of the time.

ISHMAEL

ps. I am not mad. Though I am perhaps a little crazy ;-)

 


Ozymandias_KoK

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Real World Tactics?
« Reply #14 on: September 21, 1999, 10:17:00 PM »
BTW, Desert Fighters got cancelled.  

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TKoKFKA-OZDS-