Author Topic: Bouncey Planes  (Read 525 times)

HaHa

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Bouncey Planes
« on: December 05, 1999, 05:21:00 AM »
Bouncey.. all I can say is all the planes are bouncey. I've gotten a new stick so I know it's not my stick. I always used to have WB as my "realistic" sim now with AH its like.. uhm gee is this realistic? these things fly like they're suspended by rubber bands

Every little movement I always hear the little stall horn.. getting louder and louder. So fine I'm not going fast enough but then once I actually have speed I get blackouts instead of hearing the horn. There is no happy medium!!

Maybe it's my stick, maybe I'm going crwazy but I was NEVER frustrated nearly have as much with the flying model in WB as I am now with AH. It might have something to do with the "anti-stick" stirring code forcing more stalls.. I don't know all I know is it just doesn't feel right (of course I only have 2-3 years of WB experience to base "right" on.. no real-life flying experience).

My wish:

- lower stall horn sound sensitivities on all the planes (i.e. make them more maneuverable)
- lower black out sensitivities
- improve the joystick code and something.. I've spent over 2 hour trying to tweak my stick and it still doesn't feel like it's working as it should.

I know you realistic diehards are going to just flame me for this but please don't flame me unless you've had first hand flying experience, other than assuming that the "harder" the sim is then the more realistic it must be.

Offline Jekyll

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Bouncey Planes
« Reply #1 on: December 05, 1999, 06:20:00 AM »
Don't know about making the planes more maneuverable, but I agree with your comments regarding blackout onset.

At the moment, blackout does seem to come on a trifle early IMHO.  Sure makes it hard on those barrel roll break reversals  

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Offline Mark Luper

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« Reply #2 on: December 05, 1999, 06:26:00 AM »
HaHa,
No flame here. I have real life flying experience including some time in a Aeronca Champ that was a really enjoyable stick and rudder tail dragger. I do not have any experience in high performance war birds. I personaly feel the flight model is really good in here, I prefer it to WarBirds. The planes do have a bit of a hung on a rubber band feel to me too, but I think it may take some tweaking on Pyro's part to reduce that, something they are going to be working on next.

As far as every little movement causing black out or stall I don't have that problem, I get black outs when pulling high G maneuvers in combat, generaly fly on the edge of a total black out, and also I end up flying on the edge of a stall with the stall horn blaring away at me the whole time.

It takes time but learning to fly smoothly is a major item here. We don't have the tacticle and "felt" gravity to give us clues to what we are doing so we need to learn to use visual and audio clues instead. The stall horn gives us an audible clue as to the ability of the wings to provide lift. BTW, there are high speed stalls too so don't depend on strictly speed to tell you if you are going to stall or not. The black outs give us the G loading clues, where (when they get it modeled) the limits of the plane and pilot reach their limits.

Reducing stall horn sensitivities, or as you stated, making them more maneuverable, in my humble opinion is not the solution. Though some of these planes may need tweaking in that regard, we also don't want an arcade type of plane set that only requires pointing the nose at a con to shoot at him. What makes this work as a ACM combat sim is the various strengths and weaknesses of the different types. For low level, in the dirt turn and burn type dogfights pick the right plane, the Spitfire or the LA5. For boom and zoom, slash and run type combat pick a P-51, F4U or FW190. Dont expect to take a B&Z plane into the realm of a T&B plane with good results.

Black outs start in the 4 to 5 G range and this has been discussed over and over on this bulletin board but I feel it to be a realistic start. The fact that you cannot feel the actual gravity involved makes it more difficult to know when the onset of the high G forces start to come in to play so we use the visual que's like the tunnel vision and G meter to indicate these to us. Since I don't spend my time looking at gauges while in combat I rely on the tunnel vision to give me the feedback I am looking for. Something to keep in mind too is if you are flying the Spitfire it is so maneuverable it can load up it's pilot and airframe with a lot of G's in a hurry!

On the matter of your joystick settings in the joystick setup: I use the graph at the bottom left to indicate how I want to set up my sliders. You will notice that when all the sliders are at the top, for each axis, you get a straight line from lower left to upper right. Belly this out. Start with about 25% up from the bottom on the first slider and make it look like a curve, somewhat flat on the bottom, going to the last slider. I use this on roll and pitch more so than on yaw. I start my yaw sliders from about 50% up from the bottom. Your graph needs to look like a loose fishing line on a pole more or less. Set this up and then make sure you fly it that way for about a day's worth of flying. After you have flown it that long and have gotten used to it, then adjust one thing at a time and fly for a while (several hours) before making another adjustment. You can use the damping adjustment to reduce the actual movement of the control surface relative to the input of the joystick. Set this to about 25% up from the bottom on all axis except yaw, set that one to about 10% up from the bottom. The reason I want my yaw axis more sensitive is to help me with ground handling and take off.

Hope this helps.

MarkAT

MarkAT

Keep the shiny side up!

Offline -raxx-

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« Reply #3 on: December 05, 1999, 06:27:00 AM »
Haha,

I agree about the stall horn sound.  However you can make a copy of it and reduce the volume using the Sound Recorder in Windows 95/98.  Usually found in Start: Programs: Accessories: Entertainment or Multimedia.

A lot of pilots have had problems with the sensitivity of Aces High.  I used to think it was a fault of my MS SW Pro 3d, (you know the old twisty stick by Micro$oft).  After adjusting deadbands, damping and scaling of the stick inputs I found that you couldn't just wrench the plane about like I do in Warbirds.

All the fighters modelled, (perhaps with the exception of the Macchi c.205), are late war uber-planes.  They require loads of Energy to fly and sometimes need to be treated with kid gloves in the midst of a fight.  I was complimented 2 days ago on how well I retained Energy in the FW190.  I didn't have a choise because the moment you push a 190 around the torque will kill you cause a stall and then you dead meat for the first dweeb that comes along.  This is true of most planes currently modelled, (and especially true of the F4u just released).  Even the N1K flies more like an energy fighter.  When/if the Zero, (or my favorite the Ki43), are modeled I imagine the response you are expecting will be reflected in these planes and their handling.

In summary all I can say is scale your stick settings a little more and treat the planes with respect.  When stress limits are modeled I can see a lot of pilots giving the stick a good old wrench and watching their fighter plummet to the deck "sans wing", (if they don't pass out from the g forces =).

Spotcha in the Air

Offline Toad

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« Reply #4 on: December 05, 1999, 01:33:00 PM »
I sometimes get the feeling that part of the "bouncey" response is due to "out of trim" conditions.

That is, when things get loose and bouncey, it seems to help if you can quickly slap on the autopilot, give it a second to square away the trim and then go back to hand flying. Usually, I don't have time to do this  

Because of this, I wonder if it's really a Flight Model issue per se. I think it's more of a "trim model" issue, although I agree that trim figures into the FM.

This once again brings up the whole issue of autopilots in WW2 fighters, cockpit adjustable trim in fighters that didn't have it and the fact that trim is NOT a primary flight control.

But I'm not going there  

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org

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Bouncey Planes
« Reply #5 on: December 05, 1999, 01:56:00 PM »
I found the Warbirds flight model too "bouncey."  Seemed like the nose was always bobbing up and down.

Probably a lot of the percieved bobbing and bouncing is as was mentioned by the previous poster:  no matter how good your flight model physics are, you can't model the physical sensations of flight.  The G-loading you would experience when jerking back on the stick at 300 would go a long way toward teaching the value of smoothness and moderation.

Another problem is the sticks we are using.  My CH setup is not bad, but doesn't allow the small inputs you can get flying a real airplane, mainly because there is no feedback.  Even the so called force feedback sticks only model what the programmer THINKS is the proper feedback for various situations.

I go into a real (DC8) simulator every six months and spend at least 4 hours a day for two or three days.  The simulator is MUCH harder to fly than the real airplane because of all the factors I mentioned above.  The cockpit is modeled perfectly, everything looks exactly like the airplane, sounds like the real airplane, etc.  It just doesn't have the tactile feedback, and that messes people up.  

I guess the point I am trying to make is that without a way to model G's and accurately feedback control forces, we will never have a perfect flight model. (Flight model meaning the whole flight sensation, not just the mathematical physics of airflow, etc.)

IMHO, the AH flight model is closer to the real sensation of flight than the Warbirds.  The Falcon4 model is the most believable of all, to me.

org

Offline aztec

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« Reply #6 on: December 05, 1999, 02:44:00 PM »
Couldn't agree more Haha...have tried every combination of stick settings I can think of and still my stick is so sensitive in the pitch axis that i cannot enjoy flying the sim. Wish that it wern't so...oh well.

Offline Kats

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« Reply #7 on: December 05, 1999, 10:04:00 PM »
I was just about to say I find it bouncy as hell too, but I'm gonna log in and try again  

Offline Kats

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« Reply #8 on: December 05, 1999, 10:53:00 PM »
yup, very bouncy, fine tuning aim is next to impossible. Slight adjustments and I feel like I'm a pinball machine especially in zoom!

Now, I'm afraid to play with the stick dampening because of the loss of performance and I don't know how much difference it would make as far as nose bounce since the nose goes up and down the axis 2 times before settling anyhow.

Anyone figure it out yet?

Offline tshred

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« Reply #9 on: December 06, 1999, 01:25:00 AM »
A properly trimmed a/c will just about have no bounce. I use the zoom in all my engagments, and have no problem with the bouncy nose screwing up my aim unless I am out of trim. I use a CH Force Fx with the default stick settings, no adjustments to sliders, deadband or dampener. You just can't jerk on the stick. When Aces was first released, I used to black out left and right. Now I spend most of my dogfights in 'tunnel vision' using zoom! Small stick movements are the key, especially to conserve energy. If using all the adjustments available and adjusting your flying style does not help, possibly you need to get a different brand of stick. I've spent more money than I care to mention finding the right stick, throttle and rudder setup that works well for me.

ts

Offline Wardog

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« Reply #10 on: December 06, 1999, 02:45:00 AM »
I have no bounce at all. Not sure why your getting it.Stick scaling might help..


HaHa

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Bouncey Planes
« Reply #11 on: December 06, 1999, 03:15:00 AM »
Hmm the fact that you have no bounce at all concerns me WAY more than if everyone did have bounce.

I really really think AH might be heavily biased towards the biggest+most expensive+ fanciest joystick gear. I have a relatively inexpensive wingman extreme (logitech) which I just purchased and its fine for all games except AH. My joystick before this one was also inexpensive (Thrustmaster FCS) and it also bounced. Everyone who says it has no bounce seems to either have a force feedback stick or some other expensive joystick gear.

Is there anyone out there with an inexpensive stick that doesn't experience severe "control difficulties" ?

TT

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Bouncey Planes
« Reply #12 on: December 06, 1999, 03:35:00 AM »
  Try the spit WD. you,ll get bounce. The most wonderful thing about tiggers is.......

Offline Kirin

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« Reply #13 on: December 06, 1999, 04:02:00 AM »
hmm... I really think that the bounciness depends of the FM because I get different feedbacks on different planes. Take the N1K2 for example. This kite flies like on railroads, I don't get any bouncing around at all. On the other hand the c.205 is very bouncy - I hardly get any good shots an enemy even if he is 200 yards in front of me. This bouncing is the main reason I switched to the George again although I really like the Macchi as a plane. I hope tweaking on the FM will help to get rid of that. As for this I really appreciate that HTC decided to stop popping out new planes and concentrates on tweaking the FM we already have!


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Offline Dinger

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Bouncey Planes
« Reply #14 on: December 06, 1999, 04:13:00 AM »
The "bounce" may or may not be due to out-of-trim conditions.  But it varies considerably from A/C to A/C.
From my experience, the 205 and 109 are the worst bouncers; the Stang, Hawg and La5 have less bounce (I've heard the George is good, but haven't tried it).
If you want to play with nose bounce, go offline, take the respective birds up and do the Homer Simpson "Jiggle" test -- trimmed level and at full throttle, take the auto off, and apply and remove (at different dampening speeds if you wish) full rudder.  Measure the time it takes to stabilize.  Now imagine having to make a precision movement to line up a bogey with the nose bouncing all over town.
This becomes important in a TnB situation when being able to point the nose in the right direction at slow speeds is critical.  The macchi's all over the course; the la5 can hang on its props and spray.