General: 3-6 GIs die each week in Iraq

[Frogm4n]

Look at the stats from the first 2 years in vietnam(63-64 I could be wrong here) and the last 2 years of troops lost in afghan and iraq.

The thing is, i understand the afghan occupation, but why and what we are doing in iraq is highly questionable. We are in there now and need to support our troops(by allowing the UN to take over alot of our troops dutys), but we shouldnt have gone in at all.

Attacking iraq was not defending America.

[capt. apathy]

That might work. I prefer the "beat the crap out of anyone that looks at you funny , take what you want, then leave them to rebuild their broken country" approach.

that would be ok, but we seem to be using the-

"can't find the guy responsable, so start a fight with somebody so you look effective, give what you can't afford, throw away a few of our sons a week, then move in perminantly to rebuild their broken country" approach.

[wulfie]

Oh where oh where do I start?

Originally posted by DmdNexus
They relying upon middle class Americans - mostly minorities to do the fighting.

'Mostly minorities to do the fighting'? A total lie - just like it was back in the era of Vietnam. I'll tell you what. You let me know the next time you are in Georgia, or Southern California, or Virginia, or North Carolina, or South Carolina. I'll give you the names of a couple of bars to go to. You go there and explain to the 'minorities' how they are being 'exploited' by 'fighting for the rich' (as opposed to volunteering to kill bad guys). I'll make sure you have a large audience anywhere you go. You make sure your dental insurance is up-to-date.

On a more somber note, I have mental images of plenty of good guys who have been killed over the past 2 or 3 years and none of them were members of a 'minority'. It took a statement like yours to actually cause me to think about specific details like that. There are a few guys I know who have been KIA who *to you* would be considered part of a 'minority group' - but that's your label for your *****ed-up agenda. They considered themselves to be Americans.

Originally posted by DmdNexus
Bush (the Vetienam Texas National Guard hero who never showed up for duty)

Bush did something more dangerous and challenging than you have ever done. He flew jet fighter aircraft. In the spirit of the above paragraph I could arrange for you to go to a bar or two in the states where you could explain to some USAF fighter pilots who never flew over SE Asia (read: the majority of the interceptor pilots flying for SAC) about how they were 'draft dodging sissies' and 'never did any dying'. The dental insurance advice is still very relevant in this case. When I think about how many guys I have seen get killed in 'peacetime' military aviation - you are a *****ing loser dude. A total *****ing loser lying about serious issues to support a petty argument that is itself based totally on lies.

Where did you get 'never showed up for duty' from? Did you pull it out of your prettythang along with the rest of the facts that define your reality?

Originally posted by DmdNexus
Wasn't it Bush who said "Bring it on."
Tough talk from a sissy draft dodger.

Here's a suggestion that might lead to you getting a little 'real-world' education. Before you explain to the above mentioned audiences how 'minorities do most of the fighting' and get beating within a inch or two of your worthless life, you should ask them what they think of the "Bring it on" quote. I love it. Most of the guys I know who are currently serving in the military love it. You apparently missed the point of the statement - probably because you are totally incapable of relating to the CiC or anyone directly involved in the current hammering of bad guys worldwide. Bush was saying "Bring it on" because he knew his fighters were up to the task of dealing with the opposition. 'Bring it on - it's nothing my guys cannot handle'. This type of talk may bother you. Why don't you go back to the coffee shop now and 'heroicially resist the evil Bush regime by dreaming up conspiracies to post to the internet' with your fellow 'freedom fighters'.

Another reality check - why do you call him a draft dodger? He was a member of the military already. Contrary to popular 'extremist' belief, his Dad did not hold any significant political office at the time (another reason why the 'Bush Jr. was skated into Yale' rumor is baseless). He was as succeptible to being activated to an active duty USAF fighter squadron and deployed to SE Asia as any of the couple thousand other ANG interceptor pilots flying at the time.

Originally posted by DmdNexus
Bush and his rich buddies pick the fights and average Americans pay the price with their lives.

I'm not average. The guys fighting and sometimes getting killed are not average, except in your eyes I guess. Your comments smack of the Clinton adviser who had that great quote: "The Nations best and brightest didn't die in Vietnam. The best and brightest never went to Vietnam".

What's the point of joining into a discussion if all you do is lie?

Mike/wulfie

p.s. For everyone else reading this reply - here's a graph showing monthly Coalition casualties:

[DmdNexus]

Wulfie,

>>Bush did something more dangerous and challenging than you have ever done.

Now this is a moronic statement... Bush not only did not show up for duty - he never once flew with his unit! That is a documented fact.

And if you think I'm wrong... what's your source of information that he did?

Because Bush said so?

Remember Bush also said he had irrefutable proof that Iraq has WMD and they had mobile chemical/biological labs running around the country inside of sophisticated trucks. Remember those beautiful Auto CAD pictures Powel showed to the UN security council - JUSTIFICATION FOR GOING TO WAR!

BS!
Bush and his cabinet were snorting lines in the oval office and free basing in the Lincoln room with Laura.

Where are these WMD that Bush had such convincing evidence on?

Bush also backed down from his "Bring it on" statement almost with in an hour after saying it - where's his gonads? Such a tough guy! So confident in his forces to fight - he should have stuck to his guns - he didn't because he's a sissy draft dodger.

That's why he's addicted to alcohol and was arrested for drunk driving. And when asked about it the first time he denied it, until guess what? Someone found proof he was arrested!

What a pathological liar he is.

His world of lies is getting exposed.

>>you are a *****ing loser dude. A total *****ing loser
Name calling? What's wrong? You can't have a discussion with out calling people names?

You let me get your goat Wulfie! LOL

My lefist socialist commie loving left wing liberal mission has been a success - Thank you!

[Sandman]

The general's numbers look low.

http://www.militarycity.com/valor/honor.html

[AKIron]

But ya see Nexus, when your "facts" are wild distortions if not out right wrong or perhaps even lies, how can we possibly consider your conjecture?

[lord dolf vader]

bush was a deserter, probly because of his cocain addiction because of the instilation of the first cocain testing by the military. he couldnt fly without the medical and couldent pass the medical exam. his dad then used his influence ( unpruven ) to get him a discharge with a exit exam from a civilian doctor. he wont talk about it go figure coke heads cant ever keep **** strait ...just like errr him.

and i know a lot of vets viet nam and otherwise and am one myself your good guy bad guy crap is just that crap. belive me i and they werent in combat for some cowboy movie concept of right and wrong. man that pissed me off. play your conservative politics game but dont put me on your side "deleted bad word".


 ohh yea can we get a credit on that chart. or the source figgures source wulfie?

[AKIron]

Originally posted by lord dolf vader
bush was a deserter, probly because of his cocain addiction because of the instilation of the first cocain testing by the military. he couldnt fly without the medical and couldent pass the medical exam. his dad then used his influence ( unpruven ) to get him a discharge with a exit exam from a civilian doctor. he wont talk about it go figure coke heads cant ever keep **** strait ...just like errr him.

and i know a lot of vets viet nam and otherwise and am one myself your good guy bad guy crap is just that crap. belive me i and they werent in combat for some cowboy movie concept of right and wrong. man that pissed me off. play your conservative politics game but dont put me on your side pissant.


 ohh yea can we get a credit on that chart. or the source figgures source.

I've been tellin' ya to ease up on the glue sniffin', it's hard on yer grammar.

[muckmaw]

Some of the posts in this thread are so stupid and uninformed, I find myself reaching a point where I don't even bother reading what people write anymore.

There used to be good political debate here. Now, it's simply mudslinging at politicians. Hardly Cerebral.

We now return you to the parade of hippies.

[DmdNexus]

>>But ya see Nexus, when your "facts" are wild distortions if not out right wrong or perhaps even lies, how can we possibly consider your conjecture?

I started  all this with conservative comments... now I'm enjoying the distorted rant...

I understand, now, why Rush, Hannity, Anne Coulter, and O'Reilly love to froth and sprew so much... it's rather exhilerating distorting facts and being absurd.

The truth is people who start wars never fight them, people who die in wars rarely know why.

The Iraq war is not about protecting America or ridding the world of an "evil" dictator.

Latin America has been waging a chemical war (drugs - weapons of mass destruction) against American's for years. We know who the governements, we know who the criminals are, and we know where they are. Yet we aren't occupying Columbia.

There are countries in Africa which have suffered far more than the Iraqi people, by far worse dictators. We're not talking hundreds of thousands of people dead (like in Iraq)... we're talking millions, brutal masacres of entire tribes, women, children, elderly, helpless people, babies ripped from the womb, be headings, rapes, every imaginable brutality one human can inflict upon another.

Why aren't we taking care of those dictators?

Often times these conflicts are across borders - making the region unstable.

The "moral" reason and justifications used to attack Iraq were not enough to go to war. The Bush Administration new this - because those were the conditions Congress imposed upon the War Powers act.

This administration had to lie and come up with a "Real and Present" danger (aka WMD) in order to justify this war.

This adminstration new that WMD and the link to Al Queda did not exist, and yet they continued to lie.

Why?

I don't have the answer to that question.

I know it's not about morality... no nation goes to war because of morality.

Iraq did not pose an immenant danger to America to justify Bush invoking the War Powers Act.

The Truth will be found. Bush is not that bright.. the CIA leak is a sign of that.

Leaking Bin Landen's cell is a sign of that.
Ignoring Al Queda for 8 months until they attacked us is a sign of that.

Not working with the UN, creating a huge defeciet, the situation with N.K., a tax cut for the rich - all examles of Bush's stupidity as a leader.

Bush has taken more vacation days than any other president in history - this guy is a lazy moron.

Ok wait he's not a total moron... he did sign the do-not-call bill.

[wulfie]

Originally posted by DmdNexus
Now this is a moronic statement... Bush not only did not show up for duty - he never once flew with his unit! That is a documented fact.

And if you think I'm wrong... what's your source of information that he did?

Because Bush said so? Name calling? What's wrong? You can't have a discussion with out calling people names?

You let me get your goat Wulfie! LOL

My lefist socialist commie loving left wing liberal mission has been a success - Thank you!

The current CiC was a fighter pilot for the ANG. This means he completed basic flight school for the USAF, finished high enough in his class to be selected for fighter training, and then completed advanced flight training as a fighter pilot.

Guys get killed in all phases of flight training. And he was assigned to other units previous to the unit that liars like you claim that he 'deserted from'. He was never charged with desertion. He was never even charged for UA.

I don't think you are wrong. I know you are a liar, and I know you are wrong. It's not my job to prove to some idiot that the sky is blue. Prove to me that he was lying when he said he flew jet fighters for the ANG.

I 'called' you adjectives that give an accurate description of your persona. We aren't having a discussion. You are lying about life and death occurances involving numerous people that I know personally to further your feeble attempts at feigning educated discussion on matters involving politics, national security, etc. I gurantee that you are incapable of ever 'getting my goat'. Do not fool yourself (again). This was not some 'verbal engagement' between you and I. I was slapping down a pathetic little liar (you) who sees nothing wrong with lying about guys who are currently engaged in combat and guys who have paid the ultimate price while serving a cause that you have no respect for.

"My lefist socialist commie loving left wing liberal mission has been a success - Thank you!"

Someday I wish I could be as cool as you. Instead of discussing matters intelligently I wish I could learn to lie and start endless identical arguments over the same lies.

You are pathetic.

Mike/wulfie

[wulfie]

Originally posted by lord dolf vader
and i know a lot of vets viet nam and otherwise and am one myself your good guy bad guy crap is just that crap. belive me i and they werent in combat for some cowboy movie concept of right and wrong. man that pissed me off. play your conservative politics game but dont put me on your side "deleted bad word".


 ohh yea can we get a credit on that chart. or the source figgures source wulfie?

I don't know if the 'good guy bad guy crap' applies to anything I said - let me know and we'll discuss it. By the way for serving in SE Asia. For what it's worth I don't think you can really compare the 'war on terror' with the war in SE Asia - you guys had to deal with much tougher circumstances in my opinion.

As for the credit(s) for the chart, here's the best I could do on short notice:

Origionally a summation from:

http://www.opinionjournal.com/best/?id=110004090 (the chart is on this page)

Opinion Journal lists this 'blog' as where the chart came from:

http://www.samizdata.net/blog/archives/004670.html#004670

And here's a detailed database of Coalition casualties in Iraq (linked from the Opinion Journal page listed above):

http://lunaville.org/warcasualties/Details.aspx

Mike/wulfie

[davidpt40]

Don't try to speak for the GIs in Iraq.  They either joined the military because they wanted to see combat, or were willing to risk going to combat for the benefits (college, insurance, etc).

I think the problem stems from the dumb democrats who try to join the military for a 'free ride'.  Then they whine and cry when they have to actually do something.

And its the same democrats who put pressure on the President to pull out of Iraq, while the Republicans want to get the job done.  In effect, this makes the President go into a stalling action like we have now.

[AKIron]

Hey, you were a bit vague there LDV. Were you a Vietnam vet or one of the otherwise? Just curious.

[miko2d]

davidpt40: Don't try to speak for the GIs in Iraq.  They either joined the military because they wanted to see combat, or were willing to risk going to combat for the benefits (college, insurance, etc).

 I know a few who would have never enlisted if they thought they would risk being sent into conflict.

 My aquaintance's step-son was tricked by his enlistment officer to sigh for an extra year of military servce 5 instead of 4 - for a bonus sum of $3000. He was shipped to Iraq last week.

 miko