Author Topic: Lessons from the DC Killers  (Read 2357 times)

Offline crabofix

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« Reply #75 on: October 10, 2003, 09:56:14 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by mrblack
I also build custom rifles.
here is one I built.
Savage 223 with Mcmillian a-5 stock





Wow, that looks like my long missed Parker-Hale M-85.

MrBlack, Do you have any experiences from this gun, the M-85?

Or was it only used in Brittish service? Anyone knows?

Offline medicboy

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« Reply #76 on: October 10, 2003, 11:36:25 AM »
OK, that's interesting. Having just bought myself a house in upstate NY I can now keep weapons there that I can not own in NYS (I have a Mini-14). I am shopping for the "only" rifle to start my collection. My choice so far is M1A as the most versatile and reliable - as battle rifle, sniper rifle or a hunting rifle. What can you say/advise about that?

Do I really need the rear lugs like M-25? How big a difference does heavy or medium weight barrel make compare to the regular one? How much velocity does 18" barel lose compared to standard 22"? Do NM models have tighter chamber specks? How does that affect reliablility?
Whatever you can tell me about that rifle - anything usefull you can think of. Or any other advice on all-around rifle.

Also, what do you think of a Savage Varminter?

miko
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I can't tell if this is a trool or a legit question so here are a few observations.

An M1A is a poor choice for a do everything rifle, you might get my with one of the new M14's (note:not the mini 14 mut the updated version of the M1A) but I think it is still a poor choice.  There is no real good compromise between a hunting and battle rifle.  Your best bet is to get a nice bolt action for hunting, ditching the pos mini14, buying an ar-15 style rifle and going from there.

The 18" barrel on what?  Your hunting rig?  Bad choice, the shortest I would go on a hunting rifle is 20".  You lose anywhere between 50-100fps per inch depending on the round and the load (ie: fast buring powder or slower burning)  On the chamber tightness ,not sure.   Barrel weight only comes into play after several shots, they resist heating up which could change point of impact.  FOr a hunting rifle you do not need a hvy barrel.  

I have a savage 112 bvss varmiter in 22-250, love it, by far the most accurate rifle I own.

Offline MJHerman

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« Reply #77 on: October 10, 2003, 12:47:12 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by crabofix
Wow, that looks like my long missed Parker-Hale M-85.

MrBlack, Do you have any experiences from this gun, the M-85?

Or was it only used in Brittish service? Anyone knows?


Vaguely recall that Parker-Hales were at one time in Canadian service, but I was Armour not Infantry so I might be 100% wrong on this.

Offline Jack55

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« Reply #78 on: October 10, 2003, 01:03:07 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by mrblack
I also build custom rifles.
here is one I built.
Savage 223 with Mcmillian a-5 stock





Anyone have spec.s on that scope?  It's huge.  I have almost no experience with the things.  Scope looks like it weighs as much as the rifle.

Offline MJHerman

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« Reply #79 on: October 10, 2003, 01:10:03 PM »
Current Canadian Army sniper rifle.  Looks like a Parker-Hale (?)


Offline crabofix

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« Reply #80 on: October 10, 2003, 01:15:54 PM »
Sure looks like one, yes.
Bipod is diffrent though, but it sure looks like the mag is M14 style and the turn knob of the bolt is the same. Stock looks a little more slim, but it can be the picture.

Offline MJHerman

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« Reply #81 on: October 10, 2003, 01:24:23 PM »
Here's the other one currently in the inventory.  This was the weapon that our boys used to really "reach out and touch someone" in Afghanistan.  I can't recall the details, but I believe they had a kill at 2,000 + metres.  Don't know if it was this weapon or a Barrett .50 borrowed from our American cousins.


Offline MJHerman

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« Reply #82 on: October 10, 2003, 01:31:17 PM »
Correction to above...2,430 metres...give or take....and not a Barrett .50 but indeed the weapon in the post above.

"Subject: Canadian Sniper Makes War Record Shot, 2430 Meters  Canadian sets record for a long-distance shot under combat

Wait due to 'Canadian protocol'
A kill from 2,430 metres

The United States wants to give two teams of Canadian snipers the Bronze Star, a decoration for bravery, for their work in rooting out Taliban and al-Qaeda holdouts in eastern Afghanistan, but Canadian defense officials put the medals on hold, the National Post has learned. The five snipers spent 19 days fighting alongside the scout platoon of the United States Army's 187th "Rakkasan" brigade last month, clearing out
diehard fighters from the mountains near Gardez in eastern Afghanistan. The Americans were so impressed by the Canadian snipers that they recommended them for medals after the battle.
Sources told the Post that U.S. General Warren Edwards had already signed the recommendation for five Bronze Stars for the sniper teams, drawn from 3rd Battalion, Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry, last month. Gen. Edwards, deputy commanding general of coalition land forces in Afghanistan, had recommended three Canadians for a Bronze Star and two for
a Bronze Star with distinction. The night before the troops were to be awarded the medals, about three weeks ago, Canadian military officials in Ottawa put the decorations on
hold, according to a U.S. Army source in Afghanistan.
The Canadian military told their U.S. counterparts to wait before awarding the medals for reasons of "Canadian protocol."
Spokesmen for the Department of National Defense would not comment on the award last night, but a source within the department said the medals are on hold while the military decides whether or not to award the men a similar Canadian decoration. However, Dr. David Bercuson, director of the Centre of Military and Strategic Studies at the University of Calgary, said the real reason for the delay was likely official squeamishness.
"Canadians don't kill -- they don't even use the word kill; that's the problem," he said. "I think the military is not sure that the government is prepared to accept the fact, let alone celebrate the fact ... that Canadian soldiers do sometimes end up killing people." Many of the U.S. scouts who worked directly with the Canadian snipers were incensed that the Canadians did not get the Bronze Star, the medal for bravery the U.S. military usually gives foreign soldiers serving alongside its troops.
The snipers themselves, all of whom spoke on condition their names not be printed, have said they would prefer to receive a medal from their peers in the field rather than from National Defense Headquarters in Ottawa. Dr. Bercuson said there should be no objection to Canadians receiving a U.S. decoration: As recently as the Gulf War, two Canadian CF-18 pilots were given the Bronze Star. He said the medals would be a badly needed boost to the morale of the almost 900 Canadian soldiers on the ground in Afghanistan, especially after four of their comrades were killed and eight others wounded in last week's friendly fire incident. "Absolutely they should get it," Dr. Bercuson said. "It would be good for the morale of the guys and good for the morale of the whole unit, and they need a morale boost right now." Canadian snipers were reportedly outstanding in the fighting around the mountainous al-Qaeda bastion east of Gardez, code-named Operation Anaconda. The battle pitted the two Canadian sniper teams against an enemy that showered the assaulting coalition troops with mortars and machine-gun fire
as soon as they jumped from their helicopters. One member of the team, a corporal from Newfoundland, said on his first
night in combat he and his partner got an al-Qaeda machine gun in their sights as it was hailing bullets down on U.S. troops below.
Crawling up into a good position, they set up their .50-caliber rifle -- the Macmillan Tac-50, a weapon the corporal compares to having superhuman power in your hands. "Firing it feels like someone slashing you on the back of your hockey helmet with a hockey stick." When he hit his first target, an enemy gunman at a distance of 1,700 metres, he said all that ran through his mind was locating his next target. "All I thought of was Sept. 11th and all those people who didn't have a chance and the American reporter who was taken hostage, murdered and his wife getting the videotape of the execution; that is my justification." A master corporal from Ontario, the lead sniper of his three-man team,
said when they first landed in the combat zone "our spider senses were tingling.... It was night and we didn't know what to expect." By daylight, after coming under enemy machine-gun fire, he managed to ease his rifle barrel between two rocks and quickly located an enemy sniper hiding behind a small piece of corrugated steel between two trees. He guessed the distance at 1,700 metres and fired one shot through the metal, killing the man instantly. He said afterward he remembered thinking: "That's one less bullet that's gonna be coming at us, one less person we have to think about." During the next four days of fighting, the Newfoundland corporal set what
is believed to be a record for a long-distance shot under combat
conditions, hitting an enemy gunman at a distance of 2,430 metres. The days of crawling, shooting and long hours waiting in cover left the Canadian snipers exhausted. "You don't realize what you've done to your body and how tired you are till it's all done. I think we slept 14 or 15 hours when we got back," the master corporal said. Three of them, along with U.S. special forces soldiers, also rescued a company of the U.S. 101st Airborne Division that was pinned down by enemy
fire on the first day of Operation Anaconda. They also participated in Operation Harpoon, with Canadian troops on "the
whale," a mountain overlooking the Shah-e-Kot valley where al-Qaeda fighters were putting up stiff resistance.
Operation Harpoon, carried out in conjunction with Operation Anaconda, consisted of 500 Canadian and 100 U.S. troops under the command of Lieutenant-Colonel Pat Stogran, who leads Canadian Forces in Afghanistan in the biggest ground offensive since the Korean War. Lieutenant Justin Overbaugh, of the American scout platoon to which the Canadian snipers were attached, said it was a pleasure to work with the Canadian troops. "Their professionalism was amazing," Lieut. Overbaugh said. "The Canadians were a very large asset to the mission. I would have loved to have 12 Canadian sniper teams out there. I'd have no problems fighting alongside of them again."
He said the Canadian snipers had equipment far superior to theirs. Their rifles had longer range than the U.S. weapons and better high-tech sights. Lieut. Overbaugh said if another mission comes up, he will request the Canadian sniper teams be sent with his unit. Senior military officials in Ottawa made a point of praising their work at the time. "The sniper teams suppressed enemy mortars and heavy machine-gun positions with deadly accuracy," Vice-Admiral Greg Maddison said after
Operation Harpoon ended. "Their skills are credited with likely having saved many allied lives."

Offline mrblack

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« Reply #83 on: October 10, 2003, 02:09:02 PM »
The scope Is a tasco custum shope 40 x And I have to agree with medicboy miko You will indeed loose 50-100 Fps per inche of barrell length.
The Garande Is a little complexe for an all around weapon.
But then again It is pretty reliable if kept clean.

Offline mrblack

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« Reply #84 on: October 10, 2003, 02:13:50 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by crabofix
Wow, that looks like my long missed Parker-Hale M-85.

MrBlack, Do you have any experiences from this gun, the M-85?

Or was it only used in Brittish service? Anyone knows?


No i have only seen pictures of it.
I believe the brits are now using the AW 338lapua.

Offline medicboy

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« Reply #85 on: October 10, 2003, 02:26:47 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by mrblack
No i have only seen pictures of it.
I believe the brits are now using the AW 338lapua.


Or is it the AI 338 lapua (AI meaning Accuracy International?)

Offline crabofix

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« Reply #86 on: October 10, 2003, 02:26:58 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by mrblack
No i have only seen pictures of it.
I believe the brits are now using the AW 338lapua.


338 lapua?
ok, so they have abandond the 308 win?
We are using the L96A1 AW in 308 win (7,62 nato, AW=artic war).
(I think this is the same model brittish troops are using, but they might have choosen the finnish Sako)
When I did service, there was a lot of saboted 5,56 (undercalibrated 7,62) and duplex tested for the "sharpshooters",  are you guys using anyhting like this?

Offline mrblack

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« Reply #87 on: October 10, 2003, 02:32:33 PM »
LOL I have been out since 1981.
I was using 7.62mm 308 nato

Offline medicboy

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« Reply #88 on: October 10, 2003, 02:33:18 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by crabofix
338 lapua?
ok, so they have abandond the 308 win?
We are using the L96A1 AW in 308 win (7,62 nato, AW=artic war).
(I think this is the same model brittish troops are using, but they might have choosen the finnish Sako)
When I did service, there was a lot of saboted 5,56 (undercalibrated 7,62) and duplex tested for the "sharpshooters",  are you guys using anyhting like this?


I doubt they have gotten totaly away from the 308, but the AI 338 lapua is just a much better gun and round.  
On the sabots, no that I know of and I seriously doubt it.  Sabots are inheriently inaccurate and unstable.  In the 308 I think they just switched from the 168gr to a 172gr?  Not sure on this but have heard something on these lines.  ANd they still use the 300 win mag with the 190 gr smk.

Offline crabofix

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« Reply #89 on: October 10, 2003, 02:43:54 PM »
Ok,  So, what about the duplex?  Was it ever serviceble?

Duplex=2 bullets attached to eachother, "head in buttom" and where suppose to hit 1 inch from eachother