Author Topic: Beet1e, you got some 'splaining to do (lucy)  (Read 2449 times)

Offline Ripsnort

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Beet1e, you got some 'splaining to do (lucy)
« on: October 06, 2003, 03:25:14 PM »
http://observer.guardian.co.uk/crimedebate/story/0,12079,1056411,00.html

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Gun crime spreads 'like a cancer' across Britain

As the number of weapons on the streets grows and shootings become the norm, gun law is back at the top of the political agenda



Shock! Gun laws don't work! :p

Offline Sikboy

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Beet1e, you got some 'splaining to do (lucy)
« Reply #1 on: October 06, 2003, 03:38:13 PM »
better put up more cameras over there.

-Sik
You: Blah Blah Blah
Me: Meh, whatever.

Offline Mini D

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Beet1e, you got some 'splaining to do (lucy)
« Reply #2 on: October 06, 2003, 03:39:39 PM »
They obviously need more gun control laws.

MiniD

Offline Replicant

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Beet1e, you got some 'splaining to do (lucy)
« Reply #3 on: October 06, 2003, 03:43:16 PM »
Really think legalising guns in the UK would make gun crimes go down? No I don't think so.  So for now we just have to put up with the occasional gun death - there maybe a lot of incidents, i.e. armed robberies etc., but there's not a great many deaths luckily!
NEXX

Offline medicboy

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Beet1e, you got some 'splaining to do (lucy)
« Reply #4 on: October 06, 2003, 03:48:27 PM »
How can you live like that?  Yahooo!  We don't have many gun deaths but we all get robbed, raped , and live in fear because the only ones armed are the crooks!  Yahooo!       Sorry, I's rather take my chances in a shoot out with some scumbag than let them come into my house, rape my wife, kill me and take my baby all in the name of ruducing gun deaths.     I feel very sorry for you and the way you have to live in fear, just to make some stats look better.

Offline vorticon

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Beet1e, you got some 'splaining to do (lucy)
« Reply #5 on: October 06, 2003, 03:49:19 PM »
im not sure why you gun nuts are worried about gun control laws...you all use them perfectly legally so you have nothing to hide or fear...so what if it takes you a few extra days to get it

oh and those having nothing to do with gun laws...some idiot got them legally then altered them illegally...so the system aint perfect WHAA WHAA WHAA

number of gun related crimes in uk / number of people

number of gun related crimes in us / number of people


look at the figures (i dont have them..sorry) THEN decide

Offline Ripsnort

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Beet1e, you got some 'splaining to do (lucy)
« Reply #6 on: October 06, 2003, 03:51:56 PM »
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Originally posted by vorticon
im not sure why you gun nuts are worried about gun control laws...you all use them perfectly legally so you have nothing to hide or fear...so what if it takes you a few extra days to get it

oh and those having nothing to do with gun laws...some idiot got them legally then altered them illegally...so the system aint perfect WHAA WHAA WHAA


I actually partly agree with you.  One thing to take in account is that gun laws rarely touch the criminals...only the common man.  I personally don't see much need for assault weapons as well.

My only complaint today is...ENFORCE the laws we have today.  And, for convicts found with weapons on parole? Life in prison.

Offline vorticon

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Beet1e, you got some 'splaining to do (lucy)
« Reply #7 on: October 06, 2003, 03:54:03 PM »
so its not the laws...its the enforcers...remember those guys DID get busted...how often does that happen in america?

Offline Mini D

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Beet1e, you got some 'splaining to do (lucy)
« Reply #8 on: October 06, 2003, 03:55:36 PM »
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Originally posted by vorticon
im not sure why you gun nuts are worried about gun control laws...you all use them perfectly legally so you have nothing to hide or fear...so what if it takes you a few extra days to get it
I don't recall seeing anyone here arguing over a waiting period... maybe you could post a link to that discussion?

Other than that... what laws could you impose in terms of gun control that would not affect people currently owning or wishing to purchase firearms?  The acts that are trying to be avoided are already illegal.
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oh and those having nothing to do with gun laws...some idiot got them legally then altered them illegally...so the system aint perfect WHAA WHAA WHAA
Hard to argue with that one.  Of course, some have been saying "if you make guns illegal, only criminals will have them."  I think a more important part of that article may have been the part where gun crime is actually higher now than before the ban.  That do you still say "whaa whaa whaa" to that too?  Or was the point of the ban not necessarily intended to curtail gun crime?

Though... this was my favorite part of the article (laz's too I might guess)
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"Although much of the blame has fallen on trends in music and fashion, particularly within the black community, which have helped to glamourise weapons, the problem is now spreading into other sectors of society."
LOL!

MiniD

Offline medicboy

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Beet1e, you got some 'splaining to do (lucy)
« Reply #9 on: October 06, 2003, 04:02:37 PM »
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Originally posted by vorticon
im not sure why you gun nuts are worried about gun control laws...you all use them perfectly legally so you have nothing to hide or fear...so what if it takes you a few extra days to get it
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We have the instant background check, so there is no reason to delay the buying process, it serves no function.  I do use all my guns legally, and no I don't have anything to hide, but if they outlaw guns altogether, than we have a problem.  medicboy
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oh and those having nothing to do with gun laws...some idiot got them legally then altered them illegally...so the system aint perfect WHAA WHAA WHAA
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Like Rip said the laws only affect those that follow the rules, criminals don't so more laws don't do any good, just enforce the laws we already have!!!!  As far as assualt weapons, ya they are fun but serve no sporting purpos so I don't own any, that doesn't mean they should be banned.  medicboy

 
« Last Edit: October 06, 2003, 04:05:02 PM by medicboy »

Offline Replicant

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Beet1e, you got some 'splaining to do (lucy)
« Reply #10 on: October 06, 2003, 04:04:00 PM »
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Originally posted by medicboy
How can you live like that?  Yahooo!  We don't have many gun deaths but we all get robbed, raped , and live in fear because the only ones armed are the crooks!  Yahooo!       Sorry, I's rather take my chances in a shoot out with some scumbag than let them come into my house, rape my wife, kill me and take my baby all in the name of ruducing gun deaths.     I feel very sorry for you and the way you have to live in fear, just to make some stats look better.


How can we live like that?  Easily, we've never had guns as such (only certain gun club members could have certain calibers before the majority were banned - 90% of them had to store them at the gun club too) so it's not as if we miss them.  In all honesty apart from the armed RAF/soldiers at work I've only seen a few hand guns in my life and obviously shotguns used by farmers etc.

Perhaps the rough side of inner cities have seen an increase in gun crime, plus there's always been robbers with sawn off shotguns, apart from that any gun death is a great surprise because it's so infrequent.

It's Catch 22 as far as guns are concerned because if you legalised them (in UK) you'd get the law abiding safety conscious citizen using them only in gun clubs but you'd also open up the market for criminals using them, what with them being more readily available.  This would mean the Police would have to be armed making more criminals use them to counter the Police.  You'd also get the psycho home owner shooting postmen and delivery guys too :), although I don't think legal owners would be allowed to keep them at home.

Like Ripsnort said, 'gun laws rarely touch the criminals...'.  We have laws for everything, it only affects the common man.  Only real positive thing about not having guns with the common man is no gun accidents.

Greatest crisis we see today is the constant failiure to punish criminals.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2003, 04:07:01 PM by Replicant »
NEXX

Offline vorticon

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Beet1e, you got some 'splaining to do (lucy)
« Reply #11 on: October 06, 2003, 04:06:06 PM »
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I don't recall seeing anyone here arguing over a waiting period... maybe you could post a link to that discussion? Other than that... what laws could you impose in terms of gun control that would not affect people currently owning or wishing to purchase firearms? The acts that are trying to be avoided are already illegal.


it might affect them a small bit but since there all doing legal stuff with them and have nothing to fear why are they worried? im all for guns for the use of protecting your family (Wich doesnt include "preemtive" strikes...you can shoot the f*er once it counts as proper defence), hunting and clay shooting.

yes the acts that are trying to be avoided are illegal...so by making it harder for the people who WILL use them illegally it SHOULD lower it...it also stops the psychos from getting a assault rifle or automatic weapon...seriously who needs those to kill a dear etc.

i took the waiting period thing out of context...you can ignore it if you want

Offline medicboy

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Beet1e, you got some 'splaining to do (lucy)
« Reply #12 on: October 06, 2003, 04:13:18 PM »
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Originally posted by Replicant
How can we live like that?  Easily, we've never had guns as such (only certain gun club members could have certain calibers before the majority were banned - 90% of them had to store them at the gun club too) so it's not as if we miss them.  In all honesty apart from the armed RAF/soldiers at work I've only seen a few hand guns in my life and obviously shotguns used by farmers etc.

Perhaps the rough side of inner cities have seen an increase in gun crime, plus there's always been robbers with sawn off shotguns, apart from that any gun death is a great surprise because it's so infrequent.

It's Catch 22 as far as guns are concerned because if you legalised them (in UK) you'd get the law abiding safety conscious citizen using them only in gun clubs but you'd also open up the market for criminals using them, what with them being more readily available.  This would mean the Police would have to be armed making more criminals use them to counter the Police.  You'd also get the psycho home owner shooting postmen and delivery guys too :), although I don't think legal owners would be allowed to keep them at home.

Like Ripsnort said, 'gun laws rarely touch the criminals...'.  We have laws for everything, it only affects the common man.  Only real positive thing about not having guns with the common man is no gun accidents.

Greatest crisis we see today is the constant failiure to punish criminals.


One sad point, one great point.  

Yes the biggest crime is the failure of the courts to properly punnish the criminals, excellent point.  If they did their job, we would not be talking about the rest of this stuff.

Sad point, your goverment doesn't trust people to keep guns at home???  OMFG  why is this?   Does your Govt trust people to wipe there own arses as well???   This sounds like you are living in a communist country and the Gevt is afraid of what an armed public might do.....

Offline vorticon

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Beet1e, you got some 'splaining to do (lucy)
« Reply #13 on: October 06, 2003, 04:18:13 PM »
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Sad point, your goverment doesn't trust people to keep guns at home??? OMFG why is this? Does your Govt trust people to wipe there own arses as well??? This sounds like you are living in a communist country and the Gevt is afraid of what an armed public might do.....


AMEN


only there not living in a communist country...there living in the father of democracies...

Offline Nashwan

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Beet1e, you got some 'splaining to do (lucy)
« Reply #14 on: October 06, 2003, 04:22:23 PM »
Anyone see the deliberate contradiction in their hype of gun-crime?

"Working with rudimentary tools in the basements of their homes, the pair had set themselves up as armourers to the local underworld, converting blank firing pistols into lethal weapons."

"Police intelligence suggests Shabir and Hussain were the tip of the iceberg. Hundreds of similar gun factories have been set up in homes across the country and detectives admit guns are being put on the streets more quickly than they can take them off."

That's the story the police keep trotting out, that replicas, blank firers and air pistols are being converted to fire 22 LR.

However, the police also like to trot out the claim that you can buy a proper 9mm handgun for £200 in almost any pub in the country:

"As well as being converted from air guns and blank firing weapons, handguns are being imported from eastern Europe and beyond. A good quality semi-automatic handgun can be bought on the streets of London for as little as £200."

Makes you wonder why they bother converting guns, doesn't it? The sort of good quality blank firers and replica that can be converted cost at least £80, then you have to convert them, and sell them through illegal contacts. How would they actually make money?

It's hype. There were less than 100 people shot dead in Britain last year, compared to 10,000+ in America. And WE have an epidemic of gun crime????

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Yahooo! We don't have many gun deaths but we all get robbed, raped , and live in fear because the only ones armed are the crooks! Yahooo!


But we don't. I "live in fear" that some kid will try to steal my car stereo when the car's parked outside. By and large, the crooks aren't armed. Almost every shooting in Britain is domestic, or one drug dealer shooting another.

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Sorry, I's rather take my chances in a shoot out with some scumbag than let them come into my house, rape my wife, kill me and take my baby all in the name of ruducing gun deaths.


Do you know why people break in to other peoples houses? To steal things (and not babies, either)

Families are far safer when an unarmed burgular breaks in, than when an armed one breaks in and a gunfight develops.

There's a interesting site by the Nashville police, they detail the press releases for all the serious crimes in Nashville. You never have to go back far for a few good illustrations:

"September 30, 2003
Detectives are working to confirm the identities of the two would-be robbers who this afternoon fatally wounded the owner of Unique Hair Design at 720 Murfreesboro Road.

Wayne T. Martin, 56, of Mt. Juliet, died at 3:45 p.m. during surgery at Vanderbilt University Medical Center.

Shortly before 2 p.m. today, Martin and a customer were inside Unique Hair Design when two men wearing red bandanas over their faces entered. At least one of the suspects was armed with a pistol. Martin immediately ran into a closet area and yelled to employees of an adjoining business, King’s Florist, that he was being robbed and to call the police. The suspects then retreated from Unique Hair Design. Martin retrieved a revolver from the business and ran outside. It appears that Martin and the suspects exchanged gunfire as the suspects ran to their car that was parked on the side of the business. Martin was hit and made it back inside the building. An ambulance was summoned and he was transported to Vanderbilt."

If he'd left it at calling for help, he'd still be alive.

Incidentally:

"Martin, today’s victim, is the same man who fatally wounded robbery suspect Michael Swilley on March 30, 2001. Swilley robbed King’s Florist at knifepoint. The shop owner yelled for help. Martin saw Swilley fleeing on foot, got into a vehicle and confronted him in the parking lot of a car dealership a short distance away. During the confrontation, Martin fatally wounded Swilley.

On August 26, 2002, Martin pleaded guilty to voluntary manslaughter for Swilley’s death. He was sentenced to four years probation."

Seems being on probation didn't stop him having a gun either.

And to put the number of guns in perspective:

Nottingham has almost exactly half the population of Nashville.

From the Guardian report:

"For the past 12 months police in Nottingham have been running Operation Stealth, an anti-firearms initiative. The team has made more than 580 arrests and recovered 160 weapons, "

160!!! (note "weapons", not neccessarily guns)

From a Nashville police press release last month:

"Over the past five years (1998-2002), Metro police officers have seized 11,744 guns, the vast majority of which were being carried illegally or were used in some type of crime. January through July of this year, 1,370 guns were confiscated."