Originally posted by beet1e
On motoring: Driving too fast is dangerous... many abide by the speed limits, but some do not. Therefore, "speed limits don't work". Ripsnort's solution - abolish speed limits so that no law is being broken. 
[/url]
But the method you want to use is: Driving too fast is dangerous. ...many abide by the speed limits, but some do not. Therefore the present limits do not work. So we'll keep adding limits until we take away your cars. And, by the way, the only ones who'll have to give them up are the ones who weren't speeding in the first place.
Momus:
You just made my/our point. You took guns away from those who legally enjoyed shooting sports. But crime still went up. So all you've done is kept law-abiding citizens from having weapons, for whatever purpose. No, those people probably weren't holding back crime, but they weren't causing it either. Yet they are the ones who've born the punishment for someone else's crimes.
To all:
I have several weapons. I have a permit to carry them concealed. I live in the 5th largest city in the US (Phoenix) We have a decent crime rate, largely due to illegal aliens from Mexico and the drug trade. I do not live in fear. I do no own guns because of fear.
There is always going to be a basic point where most Europeans do not understand the way Americans feel. And that's because we feel it's our right to keep and bear arms. It is not something given to us by the government that can be taken away by our government. Just as our government can't take away our right to free speech or religion or voting. That right can be limited, there's already over 20,000 federal, state and local laws controlling firearms in the US, but it can't be destroyed.
A few facts to leave with you:
At the same time the crime rate and the overall murder rate has reached a 22-year low, privately owned firearms increased in the U.S. by an average of 5.3 million per year during the 1990s. (BATF)Privately owned firearms in the U.S.: Well over 200 million, including 65-70 million handguns
Gun owners in the U.S.: 60-65 million; 30-35 million own handguns
American households that have firearms: Approx. 45%
Hunters nationwide: 14 million (16 yrs. of age and older)
I wont argue with you, just ask you to look at the numbers. There are more guns in the US than ever before and the crime numbers, across the board, are going down. Yet in places like England and Australia, which confiscated a vast majority of private owned firearms, the crime rates have gone up.
To me that means that guns aren't the problem. Yet the response is to say, "Take them away from law-abiding citizens!".
Then we show you that in countries such as Australia and England, the number of crimes comitted with guns has gone up since guns were widely outlawed.
So, let's take a look at this. We've shown that more guns do not equal more crime. And we've shown that taking guns away from law-abiding citizens does not equal less crime (in fact, it seems to equal more).
But it's so much easier to point at a gun and scream "There's the problem!!!". Because otherwise, you might have to look at the person holding it. And then you might have to do the hard job of figuring out why he's holding it and why he's thinking of using it. And that reflects on society as a whole. Which can be uncomfortable.
So once again, you cry for us to strike at the symptom, not the disease. And, like giving make-up to someone suffering from cancer, the problem may look better but it's still killing you.
Guns are not the problem, criminals are the problem. Because they will get guns or some other weapon if they need it. Reduce crime and reduce gun crime.
And with that, I bow out of this thread. The numbers are there that show gun control is a lie told to the people by the politicians because it's easier to attack them than fix our society.
There are people who don't see because they can't. Then there are people who don't see because they wont.
