Beet1e, you got some 'splaining to do (lucy)

[Replicant]

Originally posted by miko2d
Replicant: So for now we just have to put up with the occasional gun death - there maybe a lot of incidents, i.e. armed robberies etc., but there's not a great many deaths luckily!

 If your ancestors did not resist Germany in WWII, you would just have had to put up with a mild occupation, occasional jew or communist death, maybe a lot of minor oppression/abuse incidents, but there would have not been a great may deaths...

 miko

What on earth has that got to do with owning guns?  Even if we did have guns the majority of the general public couldn't keep the guns at home but would make them more available to criminals.  Would that increase or decrease gun deaths?  Unless you want us to be vigilantes but that would make us no better than the criminals.

I cannot understand that some people in the US cannot understand that guns are not part of the UK culture and no matter what people say we're not suddenly going to say 'we all want guns' because it's never going to happen.  Whereas in the US people have grown up with guns, if guns were suddenly made legal in the UK it would be catastrophic and like I said earlier I simply wouldn't trust anyone with one!

[Replicant]

Originally posted by drone
Well if the actions of the PEOPLE who are the criminals were taken into account when they were caught and the punish made to fit the crime when convicted, then guns themselves wouldnt be an issue..

 As mentioned by a few in the previous posts society itself and the way it deals with crime and criminals are at the root of the problem......Not weapons themselves ,,,,ya I know the old adage "guns dont kill people-people kill people" is so true that when  saying that, antigun jerks start screaming the minute you kill their aurgument with it.....

If responsibility were part of the responce to criminal acts then gun control would be a non issue...

Exactly, it's the justice system that sucks.

However, since the banning of guns it has made obtaining guns extremely difficult.  Many of the guns on the streets have either been reactivated old guns (ones that had originally been deactivated) or modified replicas and there was some talk of banning certain replicas that could be converted by a competent engineer.

I'm not anti-gun, I wouldn't mind one myself, but people arming themselves with knives now would start arming themselves with guns instead.

[vorticon]

guns dont kill people


but they sure as hell help...i for one would rather have a psycho armed with a knife than with a gun...or unarmed completely

[Dune]

Originally posted by Replicant
However, since the banning of guns it has made obtaining guns extremely difficult.  Many of the guns on the streets have either been reactivated old guns (ones that had originally been deactivated) or modified replicas and there was some talk of banning certain replicas that could be converted by a competent engineer.

Are you sure that's the case?

Tony Thompson
Sunday October 5, 2003
The Observer

Few people paid much attention when, late last month, Shabir Hussain and his friend Mohammed Shabir were jailed for 11 years at Birmingham Crown Court. Working with rudimentary tools in the basements of their homes, the pair had set themselves up as armourers to the local underworld, converting blank firing pistols into lethal weapons.
They produced more than 170 guns and sold them to gangs from Bristol to Manchester.

One week after the jailings, the murder of Nottingham jewellery shop owner Marian Bates, the gunning down of Hertfordshire gangster Dave King, and a drive-by shooting in Reading in which three men were injured on Friday night, as well as last month's shooting of seven-year-old Toni Ann Byfield, have brought the issue of gun crime to the top of the political agenda.

According to the Association of Chief Police Officers, gun crime is 'growing like a cancer' and spreading to smaller communities.

Police intelligence suggests Shabir and Hussain were the tip of the iceberg. Hundreds of similar gun factories have been set up in homes across the country and detectives admit guns are being put on the streets more quickly than they can take them off. For the past 12 months police in Nottingham have been running Operation Stealth, an anti-firearms initiative. The team has made more than 580 arrests and recovered 160 weapons, 10 fewer than the Birmingham duo produced in a quarter of the time. The murder rate in Nottinghamshire has almost doubled. 'We're getting the right information,' says Assistant Chief Constable Peter Ditchett, 'but we're just not getting enough of it.'

Last year saw a record 35 per cent jump in gun crimes, which means there are now, on average, 30 incidents each day. There were almost 10,000 incidents involving firearms recorded in England and Wales and, although the largest increases were in metropolitan areas, the figures showed use of handguns was also growing in rural communities. Overall, handguns were used in almost half of these incidents.

Handgun crime has soared past levels last seen before the Dunblane massacre of 1996 and the ban on ownership of handguns introduced the year after Thomas Hamilton, an amateur shooting enthusiast, shot dead 16 schoolchildren, their teacher and himself in the Perthshire town.

It was hoped the measure would reduce the number of handguns available to criminals. Now handgun crime is at its highest since 1993.

As well as being converted from air guns and blank firing weapons, handguns are being imported from eastern Europe and beyond. A good quality semi-automatic handgun can be bought on the streets of London for as little as £200.

New laws that make carrying a firearm an offence with a mandatory five-year sentence have won little favour with officers on the street. 'It changes nothing,' said one drug squad detective who asked to remain anonymous. 'Most of the kids carry guns in order to protect themselves when they are dealing. They are going around with enough crack or heroin to ensure that they go away for 10 years if they get caught. Because of that, they feel they have nothing to lose and everything to gain by carrying a gun. They carry them just for the hell of it.'

Notorious underworld figure Joey Pyle agrees. 'In the old days, during the time of the Krays and the Richardsons, people didn't go around with guns on them all the time. You only got tooled up if you were out on a bit of work. That's all changed now. For a lot of people out there, having a gun is little more than a fashion accessory.'

Although much of the blame has fallen on trends in music and fashion, particularly within the black community, which have helped to glamourise weapons, the problem is now spreading into other sectors of society.

The Metropolitan Police's flagship and hugely successful Operation Trident is described as an initiative against black-on-black gun related crime in the capital. In Nottingham, Operation Stealth has been criticised for concentrating on the problem of gun crime within the black community but, with both suspects in the latest shooting there being white, this focus is now being questioned.

'It's no longer a black or white issue,' says Lyndon Gibson of the Urban Nation Youth Project. 'These guns are in the hands of the whole community. Guns are everywhere and they are being used by everyone.'

Assistant Chief Constable Nick Tofiluk, of the West Midlands Police, agrees. 'The use of firearms is not an Afro-Caribbean issue alone. White and Asian networks exist that possess firearms and are involved in the supply of illicit drugs both to the Afro-Caribbean networks and in competition with existing networks. The potential for inter-ethnic criminal disputes is increasing.'

The suspects in the murder of Dave King in Hoddesdon were wearing masks but some witnesses have described them as being white. King, who worked as a security guard to a number of high-profile musicians and also had links to the boxing world, was well known to local police.

Assistant Chief Constable Jeremy Alford says the Hertfordshire Police investigation will be looking closely at King's associates. 'I can say that he is a person who had some criminal convictions in the past and his past could be described as involving some considerable criminality.'

A police spokeswoman said a second man who was injured in the shooting had been discharged from hospital and was at a secret location. She said forensic officers were continuing to examine the scene and a vehicle - thought to be the van used by the gunmen - which had been found burnt out and abandoned in the Lampits area of Hoddesdon..

King's murder came amid heightened concern over gun crime after a mother was shot dead in Nottingham while trying to protect her daughter from armed robbers.

Marian Bates, 64, leapt in front of her daughter as one of the two young criminals aimed a handgun at the 34-year-old and demanded gems from the family shop.

Her husband of 42 years, Victor, 64, suffered head injuries in the struggle,

Mr Bates said the gunman had first attempted to shoot him but the weapon misfired. 'My wife ran forward to get between the gunman and my daughter and he shot her dead. She was a brave woman, not at all foolhardy. She was protecting her daughter, like every mother.'

Victor Bates has called on the Government to take action to end the problem of gun crime. Home Secretary David Blunkett has promised action. He is believed to be pinning many of his hopes on the new head of the Home Office's Police Standards Unit, Paul Evans, who previously worked in the American city of Boston, significantly reducing gun crime.

'I want him to bring that experience and share it with us. I want the experience of the Metropolitan Police in London, with Operation Trident dealing with gang warfare, guns and drugs, to be spread across the country. If we can do that, I think we can take these people on and we can beat them,' Blunkett said.

The most recent shooting incident took place in Elm Park, Reading, Berkshire, when three men were blasted with a shotgun. Just before 10.30pm on Friday the men were hit by shots fired from a dark blue or black Volvo-type car, Thames Valley Police said.

One of the victims suffered serious facial injuries, the other two shotgun wounds to their arms and back.

All three were taken to the Royal Berkshire Hospital in Reading, where the man with facial injuries was undergoing surgery.

A Thames Valley Police spokeswoman said: 'None of the injuries is believed to be life threatening.'

http://www.guardian.co.uk/gun/Story...1056412,00.html

[beet1e]

Originally posted by Dune
BTW, is that the best you can come up with?  All the other numbers and facts I've thrown out and I get this?  A snide remark as if this invalidates anything else I've said.  Tell me, does it in any way make you feel better since you've lost the debate?

There's nothing more to come up with that hasn't been said in earlier threads. I haven't "lost any debate". This thread was composed by Ripsnort, and addressed to me asking for an explanation of what's happening in Britain regading crime levels, gun control laws etc. I answered Ripsnort's questions.

Earlier you said "And with that, I bow out of this thread." Hmmph, about as much truth in that as Phoenix being the 5th largest city.

[Nashwan]

Dune, as I pointed out earlier, police in Nashville recover about 10 times the number of guns per capita as police in Nottinham, one of the "stars" of that report. (of course, in Nashville, police only recover guns that are being held by a criminal, how many can't they sieze because they belong to girlfriends, wives, brothers, friends of criminals?)

[Toad]

Last year saw a record 35 per cent jump in gun crimes, which means there are now, on average, 30 incidents each day. There were almost 10,000 incidents involving firearms recorded in England and Wales and, although the largest increases were in metropolitan areas, the figures showed use of handguns was also growing in rural communities. Overall, handguns were used in almost half of these incidents.

Obvious nonsense. They already BANNED guns and collected them all, so this is clearly tripe.

There aren't any guns.. don't you see? They're BANNED and COLLECTED. They have actual LAWS about this.

So, this is clearly inaccurate.

Gun bans WORK.








Of course... if they don't, they may have to hire Laz on as consultant. Since the "gun" ban didn't work, they may have to move on the "hand" ban.

I'm sure the old neck chopping blocks will serve nicely as hand removal stations.

[Replicant]

Come on Toad, don't be so naive.

No one collected any guns after the stricter gun laws came into effect, any registered gun owners would have had to surrender them, but for the most the Police held an amnesty asking people to volunteer them.  Anyone caught having an illegal firearm would face prosecution (creating another firearm incident no doubt!).

And it isn't a gun ban, more like a ban on certain calibres so there's still going to be guns around.  However, I do believe that the stricter gun laws have worked, I'm sure the 'incidents' figure would be 50 times higher than the one reported if not for a gun calibre ban which I can accept.  No one in the UK needs .44 magnums, 7.62mm Kalashnikovs, Uzi 9mm's, etc., simply because there is no where to use them.  People that enjoy shooting either go clay pigeon, game shooting, target shooting (small bore) etc.  Like any law, they are there to be followed or broken.  Take road speeding, there are speed limits which are law, they get broken but at the same time they do slow people down as well.  I guess it's a compromise of all hell bent abuse and people working within the law (or along the fringe of it - e.g. I break speed limits on occasion on quiet roads but in built up areas I respect speed limits).

[Toad]

Nexx,

I've been to England and have shot in England. I've hung out with the folks that DO have guns and know how to use them.

So, I'm probably more familiar with England's gun practices than some of the Yanks posting here.

Nonetheless, it's funny to us on this side of the pond, after the lectures we've had on the BBS about our guns and crime and the superiority of the English ban method, to see your gun crime increasing sharply while ours continues to drop.

Sorry... we can't resist a few jabs.

[Godzilla]

Beetle, you once said that gun deaths in the UK never exceded a couple hundred a year. So why did the UK ban guns? What has the gun banned improved?


It's comical to me.

[Godzilla]

Originally posted by beet1e

Earlier you said "And with that, I bow out of this thread." Hmmph, about as much truth in that as Phoenix being the 5th largest city.

And how does Beetle know that Phoenix is not the 5th largest US city? He must have up to the second information that no one else has.

I have also heard that Phoenix is the 5th largest US city as of now by most estimates, but Im sure Beetle is more of an authority...after all he knows everything about America based on his living here for a couple of years....... 55 years ago

[Yeager]

How much has the ages old traditional anglo saxon culture of UK changed in the last 30 years or so?

If the change has been substantial, has it been for the better?

[Dune]

Originally posted by beet1e
Earlier you said "And with that, I bow out of this thread." Hmmph, about as much truth in that as Phoenix being the 5th largest city.

Heh.  So sorry for coming back to make a point.  A thousand pardons.  But I'm also sorry that you're dog wont hunt.  You've been fighting facts with feelings.  

So, now I'll leave this thread.  I'm sure that there'll be another one along soon.  And you'll lose there also.

[cpxxx]

Saw this debate and this one on PPRuNe.

More Americans killed by guns between 1979 and 1997 than in all wars since 1775

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?threadid=103496


Quite a long heated thread

Puts it in perspective I think.

[beet1e]

Originally posted by Godzilla
Beetle, you once said that gun deaths in the UK never exceded a couple hundred a year. So why did the UK ban guns? What has the gun banned improved?


It's comical to me.

The UK never had more than 100 gun deaths in any year because of gun control laws. Without those laws, my guess is that the number would quickly rise to around 1500-3000. Read my initial post in this thread.

I never did get an answer from Ripsnort about why the US banned heroin. Fewer people die from it than from gunshot wounds, and I am told by Ripsnort that it is a "victimless crime" (possession/supply/use of heroin) So why did the US ban heroin? What has the heroin ban improved?

It's comical to me.

Godzilla -

"And how does Beetle know that Phoenix is not the 5th largest US city? He must have up to the second information that no one else has."

 Last time I visited Phoenix (Xmas, 2001) I saw signs up saying that it's one of the fastest growing cities, and 6th largest. So when I saw Dune's statement, I checked the stats with the census bureau website. http://factfinder.census.gov/servlet/BasicFactsServlet

When I said that Dune's intention to bow out of this thread has a much truth to it as Phoenix being the 5th largest city, I meant that it would happen one day, but hasn't happened yet.