Author Topic: Where do you stand concerning Unions?  (Read 774 times)

Offline Toad

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Where do you stand concerning Unions?
« Reply #15 on: October 09, 2003, 10:03:41 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by miko2d
Unions are monolpolies created to raise the price of their good (labor) above the price that would result in a free market. As with any product, increase in price results in reduction in demand. Fewer people are hired.
 miko


Thank goodness management does not collude industrywide to artificially depress the market price of labor below the price that would result in a truly free market.

:rolleyes:
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Otto

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Where do you stand concerning Unions?
« Reply #16 on: October 09, 2003, 11:52:59 PM »
Where do you stand concerning Unions?

On my left foot with my right at a 45 degree angle.  That's about the best I can do at my age.  I hope this answers your question.

Offline capt. apathy

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Where do you stand concerning Unions?
« Reply #17 on: October 10, 2003, 12:29:34 AM »
Quote
They care only for themselve$ these days and have political agendas.


and the bussiness they are bargaining with don't? :rolleyes:
here's a little secret, everyone looks out for their own best interest and everyone has a political agenda, are you saying that you don't? why shouldn't unions have an agenda?

the main reason for a union is to gain an equal footing while bargaining for wages (and other compensation).  employers complain about the union having a virtual monopoly on labor, what they don't take into acount that how many people you compete with and how many jobs are available, the employer has much more of a monopoly on employment than any union has on work-force.

all of the company whinning about unions hurting them is just that, whinning.
here's a couple facts-
1.  
whine: I always treated my employees fairly we have no need of a union.
Fact:    you won't have a union forced onto your company unless more than half your employees feel they need one to be dealt with fairly,  less than that and a union couldn't get voted in)

2.  
whine:  all of these complaints about people refusing to do a job that is within the jurisdiction of another union, and other 'union' rules that seem to get in the way of production and efficiency.  
Fact:     a union can't just 'make rules' for an employers work place.  however certain things are open to bargaining, [some of these are working conditions, rate of pay, seniority (and other rules pertaining to hiring/firing), benifits, job  description (what type of services can the employer expect for their dollar.  like should a guy who gets paid minimum wage to sweep floors, be told to go do plumbing work for the same rate of pay), and other issues there are a couple more. ]
 anyway all these things are negotiated, just like any contract you sit down and play 'lets make a deal', the employer throws out something like "I can't afford cost of living increases this year", the union responds with "fine, but in exchange for that I want you to only use our members to change your lightbulbs (or whatever)".  it's all give and take.  so when I hear an employer whine about the contract rules (that is the corect term btw, the term 'union rule' is just used to make unions look bad by implying that the stupid situations are the fault of the union), anyway when they whine about the rules it tells me one of 2 things, either the guy is just a whinner and blames his problems on the union, or he's a lousey bussiness man if he can't even negotiate an aceptable contract.  if a contract issue causes some problems for an employer you can bet that he recieved consideration for it somewhere else in the contract. just like every clause in that contract that benifits you, was paid for buy something you sacrificed.  the idea that companys bargain egually and suposedly in good faith to agree on a contract, and then whine and cry when they have to live up to there end.  how long would you keep a guy on as an employee if he *****ed and moaned every time he had to do the work that earns his pay?

3
the whine:  the idea that the union requires employers to keep bad employees.
the fact:      unions can not stop an employer from firing a man for cause.  what a union does do is stop unfair firings, if you've done something to deserve termination there is nothing the union can do for you.  if however you get fired one night because a mistake your boss made is comming back to bite him in the prettythang, and his coke suplier is running late, so he throws a tantrum and fires somebody for no reason (seen it happen many times), then the union will send a rep (usually the shop steward) to get your side of the story, ask witnesses some questions, and get the bosses story. if the witnesses suport your side of things and the firing is thought to be unfair the union will file grievances for you and provide legal representation for arbitration, and if you win you get your job back, plus any wages you missed out on while unemployed.  the other thing a union does is provide you with the same caliber of legal representation available to employers, buy pooling the money of many thousand members, we can have the money to fight on equal terms with the employer when they abuse the rights of our members, also through examples set in this way we can discourage these abuses from happening in the future, as employers will know that the victims can fight back.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2003, 12:35:14 AM by capt. apathy »

Offline mrblack

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Where do you stand concerning Unions?
« Reply #18 on: October 10, 2003, 01:03:02 AM »
More importantly we need to keep American companys in AMERICA:D

Offline lazs2

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Where do you stand concerning Unions?
« Reply #19 on: October 10, 2003, 08:30:38 AM »
We will allways need some form of collective barganing and contracts between workers and managment.  Human nature forces us to.
lazs

Offline miko2d

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Where do you stand concerning Unions?
« Reply #20 on: October 10, 2003, 09:10:51 AM »
Toad: Thank goodness management does not collude industrywide to artificially depress the market price of labor below the price that would result in a truly free market.

 What you say contradicts theory and history.

 First, they could not possibly artificially depress the market price of labor. Anyone breaking such deal or a new start-up would hire the best workers by offering a bit more. Labor is just a factor of production and every factor of production receives the value of it's marginal contribution to the final product. If one factor is underpriced, entrepreneurs would exploit that by opening new businessas - and driving the prices up.
 How come they cannot "artificially depress" the price of other factors like capital, raw materials, time but only labor?

 Second, such attempts of collusion can only be made (not successfully) with government involvement. Anyone familiar with recent history knows it has been done.

 In the 40s there were mandatory wage controls intended to keep the salaries down in a misguided attampt to keep costs down. The companies inwented a whole bunch of tricks to compensate workers above the mandated wage limits in competition for labor - that's how company-paid health-care and insurance benefits originated.

 Second, the policy of steady inflation conducted by the government since Keynes is explicitely intended to lower the real wage rates and thus keep unemployment down and allow real wage rates in different industries to adjust to accomodate market demand.
 The reason given why inflation is needed to bring the wage structure in correspondence with realities of demand rather than let wages fluctuate is exactly that wages are less downward-adjustable due to union practices.

 The state supports unions with one hand, enabling their monololy to existm and undermines them with another hand by lowering their real wages through inflation.

 miko

Offline miko2d

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Where do you stand concerning Unions?
« Reply #21 on: October 10, 2003, 09:20:35 AM »
mrblack: More importantly we need to keep American companys in AMERICA:D

 Some things americans do well, others poorly - less efficiently, more costly or of worse quality. If american consumers do not want to buy products of inefficient american producers of certain goods and want to buy them cheaper overseas, why prevent them?

 The inefficient businesses would fail and their labor/capital will be free to produce what we do best - which will be exported to pay for what we buy outside.

 Division of labor is what makes all prosper. Oranges are better grown in Florida and airplanes built in Washington. Even if Florida can make as good airplanes, Washington cannot grow as good oranges, so the florida labor is better used to grow oranges and excgange for airplanes. This way we get more oranges and more airplanes than if we tried to be self-suficient.
 Same is true on every level - from individual to family to countries.

 Free trade is always balanced - you cannot possibly buy stuff from foreign country without selling them equal value of stuff you produce. You cannot lose jobs to foreign trade.
 If we get cheap steel from Pakistan (we suck at making steel), we can produce cheaper cars, which will be in more demand and we would have to expand production of them. Then we can sell cars to pakistan and other countries who cannot make them as well - they will be cheaper and more competitive.

 miko

Offline Toad

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Where do you stand concerning Unions?
« Reply #22 on: October 10, 2003, 03:57:24 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by miko2d
Toad: Thank goodness management does not collude industrywide to artificially depress the market price of labor below the price that would result in a truly free market.

 What you say contradicts theory and history.

 
 miko


I think you need to review the history how and why unions were organized in the US. Also, how the owners of the industries acted against them.

The history is what contradicts your theory.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Gixer

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Where do you stand concerning Unions?
« Reply #23 on: October 10, 2003, 04:07:28 PM »
I haven't belong to a Union since.... 95, as always thought the subs were a waste of money. Especially when I was learning to fly at the time. :-)



...-Gixer
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Offline DmdNexus

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Where do you stand concerning Unions?
« Reply #24 on: October 10, 2003, 04:48:47 PM »
Unions are communist organization with the sole purpose of underminding the free world, capitalism and the freedom of peace loving people.


Well except for the Teamsters... they're just mobsters who love America, in their own special way.

Offline Sixpence

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Where do you stand concerning Unions?
« Reply #25 on: October 10, 2003, 04:52:47 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by miko2d
Toad: Thank goodness management does not collude industrywide to artificially depress the market price of labor below the price that would result in a truly free market.

 What you say contradicts theory and history.

 First, they could not possibly artificially depress the market price of labor. Anyone breaking such deal or a new start-up would hire the best workers by offering a bit more. Labor is just a factor of production and every factor of production receives the value of it's marginal contribution to the final product.

 miko


Baseball Players sued MLB because the owners were trying to keep labor costs down. They were found guilty of collusion. Collusion happens all the time, but some have a union to help them fight it.(money makes the world go around)
"My grandaddy always told me, "There are three things that'll put a good man down: Losin' a good woman, eatin' bad possum, or eatin' good possum."" - Holden McGroin

(and I still say he wasn't trying to spell possum!)

Offline midnight Target

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Where do you stand concerning Unions?
« Reply #26 on: October 10, 2003, 07:25:21 PM »
against.

Offline capt. apathy

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Where do you stand concerning Unions?
« Reply #27 on: October 10, 2003, 07:29:58 PM »
one of the reasons people think these abuses by employers don't happen is that when it's a union shop most cases are handled by the steward telling the company that whatever they are doing isn't acceptable.  if the company refuses (very small % of the time) then you go through a grievance process which usually settles the issue.  it's extreamly rare that a problem gets bad enough to require courts or publicity.
  and then of course there is the non-union shops where you never hear of the abuses because the employees either don't even know that the abuses are ilegal, or have novoice to complain.

I know some of you have said that we don't need unions anymore to look out for our rights in the workplace.  afterall we have OSHA, and the NLRB to handle that.  how many of you really have confidence in a gov't agency to completely look after your legal rights for you? do you really think they are enough protection?  if so, do you also count on Social Security to completely plan for your retirement income?

Offline miko2d

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Where do you stand concerning Unions?
« Reply #28 on: October 10, 2003, 07:38:51 PM »
Toad: I think you need to review the history how and why unions were organized in the US. Also, how the owners of the industries acted against them.
 The history is what contradicts your theory.


 Not really. The state intervention makes monopoly possibe and both industry and labor took advantage of that. The important thing is that abuse from both sides do not compensate each other but hurt non-union workers and consumers.

Sixpence: Baseball Players sued MLB because the owners were trying to keep labor costs down. They were found guilty of collusion. Collusion happens all the time, but some have a union to help them fight it.(money makes the world go around)

 First, the storts francises are exampt from anti-trust legislation and follow different regulations. Second, people always try to collude and form a monopoly. Except in a free market it could not work, even if we did not have anti-trust legislation. The monopolosts must alwasy by support of the state to keep cometition away. Steel unions and indistry bought the state support to keep cheep imports away. Lumber bought support to keep imports away and limit logging.

 Consumers and workers who lost jobs due to expensiove steel/lumber are the ones who suffer.

 Union certainly have positive role - in education, training, representation, etc. Not in fixing wages though.

 miko

Offline Sixpence

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Where do you stand concerning Unions?
« Reply #29 on: October 10, 2003, 07:44:53 PM »
"First, the storts francises are exampt from anti-trust legislation and follow different regulations."

But collusion is not one of those regulations.
"My grandaddy always told me, "There are three things that'll put a good man down: Losin' a good woman, eatin' bad possum, or eatin' good possum."" - Holden McGroin

(and I still say he wasn't trying to spell possum!)