Author Topic: Where do you stand concerning Unions?  (Read 733 times)

Offline Toad

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Where do you stand concerning Unions?
« Reply #30 on: October 10, 2003, 08:14:42 PM »
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Originally posted by miko2d

  The state intervention makes monopoly possibe and both industry and labor took advantage of that.

Horsepuckey. Management had the monopoly long before the state intervened and/or supported it. Like I said, time to put down the theory books and read the history books. That the state supported management only underlines the extent of the monopoly.

 
Second, people always try to collude and form a monopoly. Except in a free market it could not work, even if we did not have anti-trust legislation.

More horsepuckey.

1. There is not, has not and will not be a "free market" that matches the one described in your theory books. The pols would never let it happen.

2. Without anti-trust, you'd be right back to the sweatshops days.

 miko


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Offline miko2d

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Where do you stand concerning Unions?
« Reply #31 on: October 10, 2003, 08:28:37 PM »
Toad: There is not, has not and will not be a "free market" that matches the one described in your theory books. The pols would never let it happen.

 That's what I've been saying all along. The government intervention is the cause of the problems.


There is not, has not and will not be a "free market" that matches the one described in your theory books. The pols would never let it happen.

 I've read it. All those monopolies were the result of state interventions. Every single one. Railroads, indistry protection, tariffs, fractional reserve currency - started in 1788 and went downhill from there.


But, enjoy the dream

 ??? I've been saying we have no free market. You seem to agree. How come I am the only one dreaming?

 miko

Offline Sixpence

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Where do you stand concerning Unions?
« Reply #32 on: October 10, 2003, 08:35:23 PM »
Big oil companies are not a monopoly, but they can collude to control prices.
"My grandaddy always told me, "There are three things that'll put a good man down: Losin' a good woman, eatin' bad possum, or eatin' good possum."" - Holden McGroin

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Offline capt. apathy

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Where do you stand concerning Unions?
« Reply #33 on: October 10, 2003, 09:21:16 PM »
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Union certainly have positive role - in education, training, representation, etc. Not in fixing wages though.


unions don't 'fix wages' they negotiate with managment to get as close as possable to a fair wage.

Offline Mike_2851

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Where do you stand concerning Unions?
« Reply #34 on: October 11, 2003, 01:36:56 PM »
Well, I have been reading this thread for awhile and I just can't stay quiet any longer. Capt. Apathy and others have tried to explain certain aspects and have done quite well, probably better than I am about to.

First of all I am a Union member-very involved in my Union-that is the key-involvement. ANY Union is just that-the members' Union, even the people at the very top of ANY Union have to answer to their members, executive boards, and yes the government. The National Labor Relations Act (NLRA) governs both management and labor and is administered by the Dept. of Labor.

ANY member in good standing has the right to vote for leadership, ask questions, demand answers, look at "the books" to see "where the money goes". For that matter bills and expenditures are normally read aloud at Union meetings and approved paid by the members in attendance. Members have complete say in the direction for the Union, and when it comes contract time the members vote on acceptance of their collective bargaining agreement.

I will be the first to admit that not all is perfect. In the beginning the basic premise of a Union was-you pay us a decent wage, treat us fairly, give us a voice in the workplace and we will give you a hard days work, work of quality that you can market. Now ofcourse over the years that has changed-the Union has made it better for it's members by bargaining benifits-you know-the little things, like health care, retirement benifits. And yes through our collective effort we have pushed an agenda that protects ALL workers and laws are in place now like OSHA, FMLA, and the NLRA-that protects ALL workers not just Union shops.

In a Union environment you have rights and are able to excersize them, in a NON-Union environment, you are an "at will" employee, you are only employed at the will of the employer. If your employer hedges and cuts costs by sacrificing safety-OSHA comes in and conducts an inspection-fines your employer for violations (over something you have complained to your boss about). Probability is high that you will lose your job-you COMPLAINER! OR-if times get tough-the boss won't take a cut in salary-but you will-if not be phased out completely.

Yes there are worthless, lazy, diruptive, you name it employees (or members) in any Union. You know what-the UNION DOES NOT HIRE OR FIRE. That worthless, lazy SOB was hired by the employer, went through his probation period-still retained employment-became a Union member-and now yes we have the legal duty to represent this person just as we would ANY Union member.

Bottom line is; Are Unions needed?-absofrigginloutly. Those of you that have posted here against Unions are either 1) management, 2) were not involved in YOUR Union and therefore did not provide direction-never attended a meeting, never asked questions, 3) had bad leadership that you should have replaced, OR 4) you screwed up in such a way that it was beyond the Unions capability to help you, and you probably worked a year longer than you would have at a non-Union employer.

I have worked in both Union and Non-Union environments. Am I suggesting that all workplaces be Unionized-absolutly not. If an employer treats you fairly, listens to your concerns, pays you decently, provides for your safety, health, and retirement. Well this is a place that a Union would likely never be voted in.

Well that's my nickel-I could go on all day but I'm sure through the replies, I will get a chance to continue.

Offline Bodhi

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Where do you stand concerning Unions?
« Reply #35 on: October 12, 2003, 09:09:44 AM »
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Originally posted by Mike_2851
Bottom line is; Are Unions needed?-absofrigginloutly. Those of you that have posted here against Unions are either 1) management, 2) were not involved in YOUR Union and therefore did not provide direction-never attended a meeting, never asked questions, 3) had bad leadership that you should have replaced, OR 4) you screwed up in such a way that it was beyond the Unions capability to help you, and you probably worked a year longer than you would have at a non-Union employer.


Mike,

I disagree, my time working a union was an example of union corruption at it's best.  I was not in management at that time; I did attend meetings and did speak up; leadeship was not the issue, it was getting to them after the problem; I never screwed up, I eventually left the job, and the union after my example of how they allowed a problem to go untouched, and their BS strongarm ****.  

As for other union baloney, it goes on all the time.  People getting fired for using commosense like picking up a wrench off the floor and returning it to a tool crib, all because they did not get the steward so he could get the guy who left it there to put it away!!!  That is assinine, and there is tons more.  Unfortunately corporate leadership leaves so much to be desired, it is a toss up as to who is worse nowadays, but in my book, the union is the worst.  They will forever be blamed for NAFTA's creation.
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Offline lazs2

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Where do you stand concerning Unions?
« Reply #36 on: October 12, 2003, 09:17:27 AM »
We will allways need some form of collective barganing.   There is nothing inconsistent about that with having a free market.   Both managment and labor form their own unions and/or collective barganing units.

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Offline capt. apathy

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Where do you stand concerning Unions?
« Reply #37 on: October 12, 2003, 06:12:35 PM »
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As for other union baloney, it goes on all the time. People getting fired for using commosense like picking up a wrench off the floor and returning it to a tool crib, all because they did not get the steward so he could get the guy who left it there to put it away!!! That is assinine, and there is tons more. Unfortunately corporate leadership leaves so much to be desired, it is a toss up as to who is worse nowadays, but in my book, the union is the worst. They will forever be blamed for NAFTA's creation.


that really sounds more like a company regulation. property control, (acountability for tools you check out, so as to reduce loss and theft), with no benifit I can see for the union.

the steward is not there to bully the employer, he represents the employees when they have a problem.  he also is responsable to make sure the employees live up to their end of the contract.  the steward was probably required to oversee returning a tool that wasn't checked out by that employee, so that the tool was accounted for, that the guy who did check it out wouldn't be required to replace it, and the guy who picked it up wouldn't be accused of stealing it if someone saw him pick it up.

part of a stewards job is to be an 'official witness' in situations that are often messy or troublesome (firings, discpilinary meetings, accidents).  

and finally, the union cannot fire anyone (except the people who work in the union office), and I've seen dumber firings in non-union shops.