Author Topic: Chog perk vs the "Big Five"  (Read 2127 times)

Offline Zanth

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1052
      • http://www.a-26legacy.org/photo.htm
Chog perk vs the "Big Five"
« Reply #45 on: October 10, 2003, 08:59:02 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Rutilant
They maintain the highest K/d because they don't collide with fuel bunkers, and there's an incentive to to bring them home. Makes sense, no?


P47 D-11  (typhoon beats em too, and I bet ya they encounter those fuel bunkers more than the big 5 all added together)
« Last Edit: October 10, 2003, 09:02:23 AM by Zanth »

Offline Rutilant

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1352
Chog perk vs the "Big Five"
« Reply #46 on: October 10, 2003, 09:01:39 AM »
"they don't collide with fuel bunkers" still applies. It only carries one small bomb,so isnt a very effective jabo platform, as opposed to the overloaded P47-D30, and more experienced pilots tend to fly the D11, and your average joe will take the D30 because it's has a bigger number.

Offline muckmaw

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3874
Chog perk vs the "Big Five"
« Reply #47 on: October 10, 2003, 09:05:25 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Dead Man Flying
Blue Baron, former producer of Air Warrior for Kesmai, once gave a speech about the differences between online flight sims and online role playing games.  In it, he explained that MMORPGs represent geritocracies where those who have been playing the longest possess the most wealth, the best weapons, the highest levels, etc.  In contrast, online flight sims are meritocracies where someone like WldThing, who's been around a couple of years, can beat the heck out of someone who's been around for twice that long.

Why?  Because his skill dictates the outcome, not his tenure.  So when you talk about "earning it," you're missing the entire fact that players are "earning it" every day by practicing to become better regardless of how long they've been playing.  

IMO there's no place for a geritocratic system in the main arena environment.  AH2: TOD should appease the more role playing-minded players in the community and draw on the Ultima Online crowds.  But like it or not, the AH main arena really is more Air Quake than it is Everquest.  And that's not such a bad thing in my mind.

-- Todd/Leviathn


DMF-

This is one of the best posts I've ever read on this subject. Though I disagree with certain aspects of it, the bottom line is, you are right. THe MA is quake with WWII airplanes, much to my chagrin. Though I and many others would prefer something different, I believe it is satisfactory enough for enough players to keep the dollars rolling in at grapevine, and that's all that really matters to HTC. Perhaps AHII will be more to my tastes. Perhaps another game will. I guess I'll have to start looking.

Offline AcId

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1090
Chog perk vs the "Big Five"
« Reply #48 on: October 10, 2003, 09:23:26 AM »
My opinion as to why the F4U-1C K/D is 3rd among perked planes is that it's because it's perked. Most if not all who fly a perk plane regardless of it's cost tend to fly smart. They fly smart because noone wants to lose a perk plane, again regardless of the cost. Another theory could be that most who fly it are experienced in it. That combined with perk aware flying could lead to a higher K/D than if it were not perked.

All speculation really, noone can positively say one way or another if it would return to unbalance gameplay. One can make a compelling case either way though.

Offline beet1e

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7848
Chog perk vs the "Big Five"
« Reply #49 on: October 10, 2003, 10:34:15 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by AcId
My opinion as to why the F4U-1C K/D is 3rd among perked planes is that it's because it's perked. Most if not all who fly a perk plane regardless of it's cost tend to fly smart.
I was going to wind up Mr. Toad by saying that the CHog k/d stats are distorted - because I fly it! :D  But you said it better. I get shot down plenty, but it's a good plane for earning perks.

I've always liked the Corsairs - right back in WB days even. And I've always liked carrier ops. Reasons to fly the CHog - great for upping off the CV to deal with the 500' LANC/B26/ju88 formations. Good for snapshots. The 1D needs a longer burst. But if building battling, and I have a couple of tool sheds that need whacking, the 1D might be better - 8 rockets instead of only 4. It's a toss up between the two which is best for fuel porkage. Rockets on the fuel bunkers? Perk rockets!

BTW Mr. Toad, you're in a good mood today - singing songs and all. :) Thanks for that Mary Hopkin song. She lives in the next village from here. I'll introduce you to her, but first you have to sing another song, which was in the top 40 at the same time as Mary's song. That song is another of your favourites... "Yummy! Yumm! Yummy! (I got love in my tummy)" by Ohio Express. :D:D

Offline oboe

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 9805
Chog perk vs the "Big Five"
« Reply #50 on: October 10, 2003, 12:36:22 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by muckmaw
DMF-

This is one of the best posts I've ever read on this subject. Though I disagree with certain aspects of it, the bottom line is, you are right. THe MA is quake with WWII airplanes, much to my chagrin. Though I and many others would prefer something different, I believe it is satisfactory enough for enough players to keep the dollars rolling in at grapevine, and that's all that really matters to HTC. Perhaps AHII will be more to my tastes. Perhaps another game will. I guess I'll have to start looking.



Came to the same conclusion myself recently, Muck.    No sour grapes here, its just that it became obvious to me that AH was moving farther and farther away from what I wanted out of a OL flight sim.   Still follow the boards here, though, for the occasional worthwhile discussion, and force of habit I suppose.   I'm interested in trying TOD, but I suspect its still quite far away.

Offline muckmaw

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3874
Chog perk vs the "Big Five"
« Reply #51 on: October 10, 2003, 12:44:15 PM »
I guess I am not the average gamer, or not part of the market these video game companies go after.

Hell, after Aces High, my favorite game is Civilization III.

I never liked first person shooters, as I get bored with them easily and look for something else, but the bulk of new video games seem to be first person shooters.

*shrugs*

This explains why I don't have a console system.

Well, here's hoping WWIIOL will get it's act together or AHII will be what I hope for.

Offline Guppy35

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 20386
Chog perk vs the "Big Five"
« Reply #52 on: October 10, 2003, 12:51:40 PM »
Eliminate perks completely.  Let anyone fly what they want to fly.  Who the heck cares?

All the experts who abhore the uber rides can then stroke their egos by defeating 262s in Hurricane Is, thus proving once and for all that they are AH gods, for what thats worth.

Those of us who are RAF, USAAF fans can fly Spits or Stangs and not have to apologize cause then we have to deal with the Luftwaffe fans in their TA152s and 262s.

The GV fans can prove they are tanker gods by defeating all the Tiger I mobs in their Mk IV panzers or M3s if they want to try.

The Navy fans can have super Corsairs, or prove their mettle by defeating the super Corsairs in F4Fs or Zeros.  Give em Bearcats, Seafurys, F7Fs I don't care, I'm not gonna fly em cause they don't interest me.

I  like Spits.  The history of the Spit has been a long time passion and I'll be damned if I'll apologize for indulging my imagination for flying a cyber Spit, cause its as close as I'm going to get to flying one.

Do I fly other planes?  Sure, on occasion I'll hop in a Jug or a 51 or even a P40, and my son will drag me into a 109G6 now and then cause his interest is Luftwaffe stuff.  But overall they don't interest me so I don't fly Luftwaffe birds.  You could throw 262s at me for free and I'd turn it down cause it would bore me.  I'll fly a Hurri I before I'd fly a TA152, but thats me.  

It's not my place to dictate to some other player how they approach the game.  It cracks me up to see these debates where folks want to somehow mandate how I play.  The MA isn't in place for that.  

In CT or a Scenario, Snapshot or whatever, I know that my choices are limited. That's fine.  By entering that arena I'm signing off that I know that.  But that doesn't/shouldn't apply to MA.  When I enter that arena I know that I could run into just about anything, and that's fine with me.

So unperk em all, I'll stick to the Spit V and IX regardless.

Dan/Slack
Dan/CorkyJr
8th FS "Headhunters

Offline Guppy35

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 20386
Chog perk vs the "Big Five"
« Reply #53 on: October 10, 2003, 01:01:45 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by AcId
My opinion as to why the F4U-1C K/D is 3rd among perked planes is that it's because it's perked. Most if not all who fly a perk plane regardless of it's cost tend to fly smart. They fly smart because noone wants to lose a perk plane, again regardless of the cost. Another theory could be that most who fly it are experienced in it. That combined with perk aware flying could lead to a higher K/D than if it were not perked.

All speculation really, noone can positively say one way or another if it would return to unbalance gameplay. One can make a compelling case either way though.



They fly smart or do they fly scared?  It's always the perked birds I see hanging high over the mob of unperked birds who are furballing all over the place.  Not much of a gamble if the other guys are doing the set up work and you drop in, cherry pick someone elses work and bail out of the fight.  I don't ever recall seeing a perked bird co-alt.  They are always higher and moving faster looking for a free lunch.

Posts are mentioning that the perked rides have the best K/D ratio.  Once again, not a surprise cause they aren't going to dive into a fight they might not survive because they don't want to lose the perks

So again, I'd say unperk em all.  Let those uber plane drivers actually risk it in a furball and see how they do.  Regardless of the ride, the good pilots always seperate themselves from the rest of us.  And regardless of the ride, us average joe pilots remain average joes,  with no complaint from this average joe cause I'm having fun, which is what it's supposed to be about isn't it? :)

Dan/Slack
« Last Edit: October 10, 2003, 01:21:41 PM by Guppy35 »
Dan/CorkyJr
8th FS "Headhunters

Offline aztec

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1800
Chog perk vs the "Big Five"
« Reply #54 on: October 10, 2003, 01:09:05 PM »
Hey!....no makin sense allowed here Guppy. ;-)

Offline beet1e

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7848
Chog perk vs the "Big Five"
« Reply #55 on: October 10, 2003, 01:57:52 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by muckmaw
This is one of the best posts I've ever read on this subject. Though I disagree with certain aspects of it, the bottom line is, you are right. THe MA is quake with WWII airplanes, much to my chagrin. Though I and many others would prefer something different, I believe it is satisfactory enough for enough players to keep the dollars rolling in at grapevine, and that's all that really matters to HTC. Perhaps AHII will be more to my tastes. Perhaps another game will. I guess I'll have to start looking.
Nodding in agreement here. JEDI, that wise sage on the WB/AGW BBS once said (in May 1999 actually)  
Quote
"Remember, REAL air combat wasn't FUN at all. The closer we get to REAL, the farther we'll get from FUN."
That was in response to the Historical Realists who wanted every aspect of WB to be modelled on Realism, with no concessions to gameplay of any kind. Jedi later added (and this is the key) that there is a limit to how far that principle would work in reverse - how far the game could pull away from REAL, and still get closer to FUN. In my view, and in the view of others whose posts I'm reading here, that point has already been passed in AH. It's moving further away from REAL, but as far as I and a few others are concerned, it's not moving any closer to FUN any more.

You only have to look at posts that folks have put up saying "what a blast" they had on such and such night. Analyse the scenario of what took place a little more closely, and one comes away with the impression that some people want nothing more than a fire button to pummel and to make stuff go BOOM every few seconds. I'm not saying that they're wrong to derive pleasure/satisfaction from an evening of doing that, but like you say, it's Quake with WW2 planes/GVs. It has a WW2 veneer but that is all. Fun for many, it may pull a lot of $ into HTC, but it hardly resembles WW2, and it's not what I want.
Quote
"eliminate perks completely. Let anyone fly what they want to fly. Who the heck cares? "
Do that, and more than half the planes flying will be Me262. That's exactly how it was on "Jet Day" in Brand-W, when a certain end-of-term feeling set in.

Offline Dead Man Flying

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6301
Chog perk vs the "Big Five"
« Reply #56 on: October 10, 2003, 02:05:09 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by beet1e
I'm not saying that they're wrong to derive pleasure/satisfaction from an evening of doing that, but like you say, it's Quake with WW2 planes/GVs. It has a WW2 veneer but that is all.


Keep in mind that when I say Aces High is more like Air Quake than it is like Everquest, I'm referring to the fact that Quake is the ultimate, or at least paradigmatic, meritocracy.  That's not to say that AH is merely Quake in the air -- the gameplay's more detailed than that and allows for different ways to play and enjoy oneself, but in the end the game still rewards skill over tenure.

By the same token, I don't think AH2: TOD will be exactly like Everquest in the virtual skies.  It too will have its own blend of action and role playing, though ultimately I get the sense that it plans to reward those who have participated longer than others.  After all, no matter how good you are, you have to start small and work your way up the ranks.  That takes time.

-- Todd/Leviathn

Offline AcId

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1090
Chog perk vs the "Big Five"
« Reply #57 on: October 10, 2003, 02:14:14 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Guppy35
..... Once again, not a surprise cause they aren't going to dive into a fight they might not survive because they don't want to lose the perks....


Take off the blinking neon perk icons and some just might. At least part of the reason they don't has to do with fear of being hunted due to that icon. Hmmm hunted doesn't do it justice...how bout gang raped...yeah that's a better description.

You have to admit, folks pay much more attention to the 'perk icons' than the non-perk rides.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2003, 02:17:02 PM by AcId »

Offline beet1e

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7848
Chog perk vs the "Big Five"
« Reply #58 on: October 10, 2003, 02:22:02 PM »
The CHog (subject of this thread) does not have an identifiable perk icon.

Offline Kweassa

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6425
Chog perk vs the "Big Five"
« Reply #59 on: October 10, 2003, 02:46:53 PM »
Some points about the "Big-Four" and the Chog, from a previous line of thinking, by me:



"1) The Chog was doing 20~23% alone.

2) The P-51D always had a stable rate of 10% - regardless of the Chog.

3) The Spit9 and N1K2 share a total rate of 20% - this means the overall rate of those two is set at about 20%, and which plane's more used, fluctuates throughout the tours. ie) In some tours, the Spit9 does 7%, and the N1K2 does 13%. In other tours, the Spit9 might do 12%, and the N1K2 8%.

4) The La-7 saw steady but continuous increase until recently, where it blew over the 10% line.

5) The Typhoon, which claims 5%, is probably the most intersting case of them all. It remains about 5%/fifth place ever since Tour29. The top five is set since that tour, up to today. (*note: recent stats of Tour41, is also very interesting in the fact that a change of terrain, can also significantly effect plane usage. "Bigisles" no doubt, is the main reason behind the Seafire and the F6F-5 getting more used than the Typhoon!)

6) The Seafire and F6F-5 is hard to track - only within three~four tours since they appeared, the La-7 and the Fw190D-9 appeared, and then, the Chog became perked. The usage fluctuates anywhere between as low as 1% to as high as 7% - with these difficulties in consideration, a lot of guesswork has to be made in its usage levels. About 1% each, is what I estimate as the "true" figures, before the Chog became perked. All the figures above that, is a result of new planes introduced in too quick a time period. "

...



"Comparative analysis of above five points, suggest:

* Point 2) suggests that there's a stable P-51D crowd, who are uneffected by whatever may happen or whichever new plane might come around(unless it's something like a P-51H  ) - probably due to its high fame, and high versatility as a MA fighter. They have no reason to falter whether or not the Chog was around.

* Point 3) reveals the fact that the N1K2 pilots are also Spit9 pilots. They too, fly nothing else. When someone gets bored with the N1K2 they take out a Spit9. Vice versa with the typical N1K2 pilot. This means the N1K2/Spit9 crowd is also set.

* Points 4), 5), and 6), reveal where the Chog crowd went. We can track the "actual" usage of the Chog as a fighter, with slight assumptions and some clever sleuthing, based on the facts in the three points above.

It's 23% impact, as previously analyzed by many, comes from its significancy as a do-it-all plane. After the Chog was perked, the Typhoon saw significant increase. A 1% plane, suddenly jumps up to about 4% immediately after it was perked. Over the tours, it stabilizes at 5%.

The significancy of the Typhoon, reveals the fact that a large share of Chog usage was due to its jabo capabilities. People who don't fly Chogs regularly, would still up a Chog when doing jabo, or when they had to fly off a carrier. Therefore, it is often misleading to see the "23%" figure and think "great, 23% of fighters in MA is the Chog" - this never happened.

From point 6), we can see how much the F6F-5 and the Seafire was increased in usage - those two planes are each about 4% in average since Tour29. Thus, over the tours, they saw total increase of 6%.

Point 4), thus, is where the secret lies. The Chog crowd, has been transformed into the La-7 crowd.


In conclusion, of the 20~23% kills achieved by the Chog at it's prime, 4% of them are from Jabo attacks. 6% was due to carrier duties. That's 10%. About 10~13% of the Chog kills, is achieved during regular, land-based, non-jabo fighter duties. "

.....



"Some of the claims of people skeptical on perking the Chog, turns out to be true: "I don't see that many Chogs to be a problem." Yes, the Chog never was 23% in "true fighter" usage. It's actual usage as a regular fighter, was 10%.


* P-51D - 10%
* Spit9+N1K2J - 10%+10%
* Chog - 10%

 The "new plane", La-7, is now 10% in usage. The "Big Four" phenomenon, wasn't caused by perking the Chog.  

In previous theory:

1) Supposedly the pilots of the perked planes, moved over to "next best planes" - and thus, when 1 plane was perked, the "next best planes" quickly became the new head honchos of the MA.

2) Thus, this led to the assumption that perking planes, just cause more whinings, people continuously asking to perk the best planes until every plane was perked - freedom is clasped in chains, and AH dies.

3) The whining about the "big four", was the result of the Chog being perked, and the classic case of perks decimating freedom of choice, and causing more and more whining. "



....


" The truth:

 The "Big Four" did not appear suddenly. The Chog seemed to be overused only due to the fact that it was a do-it-all plane. Remove the do-it-all aspect and observe it's nature as a normal fighter, the Chog was actually doing 10%. This magic number, "10%", is also what the P-51D, Spit+N1K2 has.

 We always thought in the past days, only the Chog was a scourge-terror, everywhere you run into you see only Chogs. That's how we were all brainwashed by the "20% kills" figure.

 ....

 We never thought the P-51D, Spit9, N1K2 was a serious problem, because to us, it always seemed like:

"Yeah, the P-51D, Spit9, N1K2 is used a lot.. but never like the Chog. The Chog is the real problem - anywhere you go, you see them always. For god's sake, they claim 23%!"

 In truth, the "Big Four" phenomenon - where four of the top fighters sharing about an equally high rate of usage and kills claimed - was already there.

 It was always the "Big Four". After the La-7 came and Chog was perked, all the Chog pilots moved to the La-7, and formed a new "Big four". The rest three planes of the Big Four, were always as much a problem as the Chog.

 The current stats of plane usage, is nothing but a reflection of what was past - The Typhoon, F6F-5, Seafire and the La-7, are direct heritage of what was once, superbly overhyped as the "Chog". "

...



" The perking of the Chog did what it was intended to do - it split some of the multi-roles the Chogs carried out alone, to different planes. However, it did not increase 'diversity' as what one would expect in normal fighter-to-fighter combat in AH.

 This, is not because perking itself is wrong. It is a direct result of wrong method of perks applied - adding in a new super-plane which immediately replaced the perked one. "

 ...



 Another interesting thing to consider is, people immediately relate to the concept "taking away a choice" when someone suggests a perk on a certain plane.

 If they suggest to pull the plane out of the planeset, that'd be taking away choices. If they suggest it needs perks above what average people can easily collect and use, that's limiting choices.

 But 3 perks for a cost? People are talking like 3 points on a plane will suddenly kill a plane and make P-51s or stuff inaccessible to the general public. I don't think that's true. 50~200 perks may kill motivation, but 3 points is just enough to boost motivational qualities and promote a more careful line of flying, but not high enough to feel punitive when the plane is lost.

 ..

 More details on various thinking in the link attached at the sig below.