Participation and DAR

[Lephturn]

 

I don't think either side is playing the same game here. And while that does nothing to prevent the enjoyment of Aces High by furballers, it seriously effects the enjoyability of the game by Strat players.

That's where you are wrong IMHO.  Taking away any of the radar we have would affect the enjoyability of the game for those that like to furball.  You can't enjoy a good fight if you can't find it.  Heck, the entire strat system inhibits the fun the furball crowd can have.  Every time a strat player flies over a base and dumps the fighter hangars, be it ours or theirs, our fun gets curtailed.  The furballers however, do NOT harm the strat players fun.  All they do is choose not to participate in the strategic war.  That's their decision, but it doesn't stop the strat-minded players from doing their thing.  You are right, you always see strat players asking the furballers to play their way, and you don't see the furballers asking the strat players to play our way.  That's the whole point, if we don't want to play that base taking game, it's our choice.  Leave us alone about it.  Don't try to re-design the game so we can't play how we want to just because you wish more folks would play your way.  The very fact that more folks seem to be involved in the furball side tells me that there are more folks playing the game for pure "fun" type of play than there is the competitive way taking bases.  It wouldn't be smart for HTC to limit it's most popular form of play now would it?

The problem is how do you minimize each type of player's impact on the other? The answer I supported before was some kind of small area that was not part of the strategic system.  A "fighter town" or whatever you want to call it with one base from each side where the furballers can always find an aircraft and a fight quickly and easily.  That way, both types of players would be able to do their thing without being a problem for the others.

Gadfly,  there is no hard-set 32 plane limit in AH.  Sure, at some point AH won't be able to display all the planes, but it isn't a hard number like it used to be in WB.  In any case, I'm not talking about two large formations that clash... we're talking about a furball.  You could have a 50 plane furball that never has more than about 25 all in visual range at once.  You always have planes getting killed, diving out to escape, exiting to grab alt, and joining as the take off.  It's a very large area overall, and not super concentrated enough to cause plane view limit problems.  I've only ever seen view limitations be an issue in scenario setups where you have formations, in large furballs it's just never been an issue in my experience.

Curly, the bandwidth issue isn't THAT big of a deal.  Don't forget, you only get updates to those planes within a certain range, and it's not until those planes get pretty close that the update speed increases.  It minimizes the bandwidth problems for the clients.  I was in a beautiful furball with about 40 planes participating the other night near A1.  Now all 40 weren't in visual range at once, but at times there were 20 in icon range easy.  Although one or two individuals were a bit warpy, there was no overall degradation in connection quality.  It was a huge furball and it was a blast, warping was not a problem.  In short, I've never seen a furball in the main arena large enough to cause problems on the server end.  I've only ever seen it in the scenarios, and that was while there was also 100 folks plus in the main arena at the same time.  You are proposing limiting furballs to avoid a problem that doesn't exist.  There is no reason to do that.  If HTC gets so many folks in the arena in huge furballs that it saturates their bandwidth on the server side, then they may have to upgrade their connection.  As it is, I don't see the problem.  Large furballs are rare enough, and they work just fine now, there is no reason to curtail them.



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Sean "Lephturn" Conrad - Aces High Chief Trainer

A proud member of the mighty Flying Pigs
http://www.flyingpigs.com

Check out Lephturn's Aerodrome for AH articles and training info!

[darling]

Lephturn

Never have I disagreed with one player more  

Sometimes I utter a string of choice words for the furballers on Nit side (quietly of course). I'm not saying they ruin the strat game for us strat players, but the point you mentioned about us stratters ruining a good furball is... wow, I lack the words. I have lead several flights of bombers (always as scort), and destroyed the FHs at 4-5 forward enemy bases. Seeing the furball die down and then the bases being captured one by one, is just sooo rewarding. But the furballers never seem to have a problem finding a new spot to ply their trade.
On the other hand, when 15 nits - often half our forces - engage in a furball, stratting becomes very challenging, since cooperation is nearly nonexistent nit-side. So, while the furballers can find a new place, the strat game is nearly nonexistent.

But what the hey? We all pay our $30.


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2nd Lt. Hogni "Darling" Gylfason
332nd FG "Flying Mongrels"
143rd Pursuit Wing

[Degas]

Leph, despite some of my more "colorful" comments on the country channel, I really don't want to force my way of playing Ace High onto you or any other so-called "furballer".

HTC has tried to make concessions to both camps, and I applaud them for it.  However, that effort perfectly fits some pundit's definition of "compromise":  a solution that leaves all parties equally pissed off.  It certainly seems that the Strat players spend a lot more time pissed off than the furballers, though.  Maybe we need group anger management classes, LOL.

I still believe we are playing two different games.  The problem has been that there really isn't a persistent online game world out there designed for Strat players.  Most of us believe (hope) that this is going to change, in the very near future, with the release of World War II Online.

I'll say this much, though...  the key to enjoying AH as a Strat player is to find
other Strat players, get on RW and try not to fixate on "the big picture".  Just have fun with your group.

I just watched an excellent movie, The Legend of Bagger Vance.  Will Smith has a line in that movie that applies here:  "Remember, it's just a game.  It's meant to be played, not won."

[Lephturn]

Darling,

When a group goes and dumps the FH's at 4-5 forward fields, it often leads to folks logging off.  If you are not someone that wants to hunt buffs, often the situation is that you can't take off in a fighter anywhere close to the action.  For those of us who fly with limited time often, that means we just got limited pretty severely.  Sure, we may EVENTUALLY find someplace to fight, but that's the problem.  Many folks don't have long periods of time to play this game (including myself) so finding a new furball is often not possible in the time we have.  That's why it's frustrating to see the FH's going down just as the fun gets going.

The point is, 1/2 of your players furballing doesn't make playing the strat game impossible to play.  You can still take off, bomb targets, take bases etc.  Nobody is stopping you.  You might not be as successful, but you can still do it.  It's SUPPOSED to be challenging.  The fact that you wish more people would play the game the way you do is irrelevent.  Your still free to grab a buff or whatever and go bomb things.  Those who just want to fight A2A against other fighters lose their options when the FH's go down.  Although we can try and find another place to scrap, it often takes quite a while.  For many of us, that time luxury just doesn't exist.  I know that's often the case for me.

Degas,

Yes, we are playing two different games in the same arena.  Yes, HTC has an arena that is a compromise... it has to be.    While I don't think it's a perfect one, I believe it is pretty good.  There are some things that might improve it IMO, but we'll see.

My point Degas, is that Strat players can always do that.  The "furballers" just looking for a good A2A fight can do the same... however our fun gets stopped when the strat guys fly over and blow the FH's away.  How would you guys like it if Jabo fighters went around porking BH's for miles around?  Just as your group of strat players get geared up for a mission and get rolling... blam, no BH's on the front you were working.  Go find another place....   um it's not that easy.  

Just trying to illustrate why I think some slight changes would help.  


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Sean "Lephturn" Conrad - Aces High Chief Trainer

A proud member of the mighty Flying Pigs
http://www.flyingpigs.com

Check out Lephturn's Aerodrome for AH articles and training info!

[Nifty]

I'll throw my 2 cents into this one...  

The strat players don't just want to bomb things.  If we did, we'd have no problem just bombing the hell out of bases/cities/factories yet leaving the FH's intact for the furballers.  The strat players want to work together to take fields and advance the front for their country (or to stop an advance if being pushed.)  It's a combined effort of buffs, 'scorts and transports.  That's what the strat crowd is after, teamwork that leads to a visible, positive result, e.g. base captures or limiting the ability of your opponents.  If a strat team is pushing to take a base, they HAVE to take down the FH at some point.  Otherwise the troop 'sport won't make it, though on this map, M3's can sneak in sometimes.

Now, do we want to ruin furballers fun?  No, we don't.  In fact, furballers actually could benefit from strat missions.  Usually, a mission to take a base generates good opposition during peak hours.  Sometimes it takes 10+ friendly fighters to handle the nme fighters at the field.  

In the few posts in this thread we've seen the extremes of both sides of this, via Leph and Darling.  Perhaps a compromise can be reached here.  If the objective for a strat team is limiting infiltration capabilites, taking out BHs, VHs and barracks does the trick.  Enemies can't take bases without transports and troops.  That way, Darling (with me on his wing!  ) can have the feeling of accomplishment in that his strike has effectively kept our bases on that front save from takeover, and Leph and the furballers still are able to up from those bases.  However, if the objective is a base takeover, the FH has to come down, and possibly the ones at the nearest fields too.  

On a side note, I personally felt like the Islands map was more conducive to both playstyles at once, as the bases are spread out and use the whole map, not just the outer edges as the current one does.

[LePaul]

My quick 2 cents on this very lively, and cordial, discussion...

I'm a strat guy and have enjoyed the times I've had escorts like Darling ride me into a hot area in need off bombing.  I do not understand why the furballers would be upset being asked to plow a path for the bombers?  If you guys are upset the cons will go away once the Fighter Hangars go, well, hang in there while we cap the base and move...I mean, I've seen some extraordinary battles where Ripsnort has managed to lure in the best of furballers and strat guys to win a field.  So, I can safely say I've seen the stratballers approach work.  And I savor the times it happens.  

Example:  Bish did a raid on A18.  They asked me to fly up ahead in an Arado (love how they volunteer MY perk points! LOL) and knock out the radar, so I did...not far behind me were our fighter guys, clearing my six and knocking down the bad guys.  While that war was being waged, the bombers made it in, knocked out hangars.  Two (or 3?) C47s and escorts made it to the field and 18 was ours.  Wow, what a rush.  And I'm sure many of you can echo experiences like this.

My $0.02.


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Paul J. Busiere

Aces High Arena handle:  BD5Pilot
 http://bd5.checksix.net
BD-5 "T" (TurboProp) 90% complete, first flight in 2001 (We hope!)

[HMR]

 

Originally posted by Lephturn:
You can't enjoy a good fight if you can't find it.

Amen!

 

 Every time a strat player flies over a base and dumps the fighter hangars, be it ours or theirs, our fun gets curtailed.

Oh the humanity!

 

The furballers however, do NOT harm the strat players fun.  All they do is choose not to participate in the strategic war.

And don't forget listening to the self-appointed strat geniuses telling us where we should be fighting over and over and over again!

 

You are right, you always see strat players asking the furballers to play their way, and you don't see the furballers asking the strat players to play our way.  That's the whole point, if we don't want to play that base taking game, it's our choice.  Leave us alone about it.

Yes, please!!!  I'm new to AH, but the whole base-taking vs furballing thing is exactly the same in AW.  If you want to take a base, then by all means do it and best of luck to you.  But please don't "yell" at me or anyone else telling us we need to stop whatever we are doing to follow your agenda.

Realizing that my rant is a little off-topic, I will say that I could live with a reduction in the accuracy of in-flight dar, but the reality is the location of the fight often changes significantly while you are trying to get there and, without some means to check while in-flight, there is a good chance you won't find it.  Just my $.02

HaMmeR

[Wlfgng]

Good points all.

I have to agree with Leph on this one.
I love the furballing and hate it when strat guys end the fun.
I do believe that the strat guys should be able to play the game how they like.. and same goes for the furballers.

Typically when I log in I fly lone-wolf stuff and look for A2A fights.  When I log on and participate in my squad nights.. we usually take fields.  

All is fun and each person should be able to play it how they see fit.

I totally object to the strat guys that 'yell' to the rest of the country about needing help.. or you should do this or that..
have fun your own way and let me have fun my way..

[Nifty]

 

Originally posted by Wlfgng:
I totally object to the strat guys that 'yell' to the rest of the country about needing help.. or you should do this or that..
have fun your own way and let me have fun my way..

As long as the person is asking for the help, I see nothing wrong with it.  If they are "ordering" you to help it's another story.  It's not like the strat guys know exactly who wants to participate in strat, so Ch. 2 is the best place to ask for that help.

If someone is directly asking you to help, just tell them you're not interested in that aspect of gameplay and maybe they'll leave you alone.  Asking for people to not cry for help, and you're killing gameplay for those of us that do want to help.  

[popeye]

As it is now, the game is built around field capture.  So the "strat" guys are playing the game the way it was intended to be played.  (If it was intended to be a furball game, the FH's couldn't be destroyed.)  So, it's not entirely unreasonable for the strat guys to <cough> request the assistance of other players to accomplish the goal of the game.

There really needs to be a Furball Island, or Fighter Town, where the furball crowd can go to ignore the field capture game, and play the game they want to play.


[This message has been edited by popeye (edited 05-21-2001).]

[Nifty]

 

Originally posted by popeye:
There really needs to be a Furball Island, or Fighter Town, where the furball crowd can go to ignore the field capture game, and play the game they want to play.

How would that be different than going to the DA and/or the TA?  (other than not having to go to a different arena)

[Beach]

<S> all comments, i agree that sector bars need to go.  I really like the idea of have remote Dar stations (but again at a level of 500ft AGL.  the comment about the ack needing a minute to spool up is a good idea but to long of a time, maybe 20sec, u can get a good run in on that,


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[This message has been edited by Beach (edited 05-21-2001).]

[BBGunn]

AKA:Wren-From what I have experienced furballs tend to be very lopsided and favor one side that sends out a mess of planes.  I consider it more fun to be 1 on 1 where I can try different ACM's against an opponent than just fly into a bunch of AC.  The end result is usually getting shot down and learning nothing except to stay out of bunches of AC. One of the weaknesses I have seen in play is that folks rely on the radar too much and react to the dots, rather than posting a few fighters over a base at 15k to relay info and intercept raiders.  On the other hand the dar has saved me a few times from low 6 attacks when I saw the close red dot and of couse if there are few players in the MA then one tends to look for the dots to indicate where the next attack is taking place.  If there was no inflight dar then there could be ground controllers if players would be willing to shift duty around so the control guys wouldn't get to bored etc..  This has worked in some of the special events.  Turning the acks down at some bases really favors the offense but this may be compensated for by manned heavy guns coming up in the next version.  

[lemur]

My dos pesos:

Keep radar more or less the way it is now: Make it easier to take out local radar at bases, but bases only show enemy dots for people in the area of that base. Other wise it shows bars for folks elsewhere.

HQ only provides the strat bar info, and then only for areas not covered by base radar. And only at an alt of 5000 or more.

i.e. Field dar is accurate, but the info isn't relayed. HQ dar isn't accurate, but it  covers a wide area and is relayed everywhere.

As for the whole strat / furball thing... Why not make a 'fightertown' furball arena?

3 bases per country (2 forward, 1 rear), small map, no buffs. Make all the bases large and disable troops. Or all GVs except Osties.

All furball action, baybee!

~Lemur

[Lephturn]

You never want to try and separate into multiple arenas without enough people.

The whole point is to have all types of play styles accomodated in a single arena.  Nobody wants to play the same way ALL the time, and most swap around what role they are playing frequently while online in the main.  I often ask for help defending a base myself.  I sometimes will hunt enemy buffs, or escort our own.  Sometimes I have limited time, or I just feel like playing A2A or furballing.  The main arena is supposed to be the whole ball of wax, and I should be able to switch roles whenever within the arena.  It is meant to make all aspects of the game available, and it's meant to have large numbers of people online.  Until HTC has more folks than they can handle in a single arena on a regular basis, it's just not smart to break up the player base into multiple arenas.

A separate arena is a hugely different thing than a small protected area within the main.  Even the strat players would be better served this way with everybody in the main.  If you pulled all the furballers out of the main, the "strat" arena would be pretty dead.  That's just not the point of a main arena.

You know, I'm not even convinced of the necessity of a "fightertown" type arrangement, although I would like to see the effect of such a thing in the main.  If radar is changed so dropping HQ didn't blind an entire country, and the fields were changed so that it's tougher to drop all the FH's (as seems to be the case in 1.07), I think things would be in pretty good shape.

------------------
Sean "Lephturn" Conrad - Aces High Chief Trainer

A proud member of the mighty Flying Pigs http://www.flyingpigs.com

Check out Lephturn's Aerodrome for AH articles and training info!

[This message has been edited by Lephturn (edited 05-22-2001).]