Participation and DAR

[Pongo]

leph
"Every time a strat player flies over a base and dumps the fighter hangars, be it ours or theirs, our fun gets curtailed. The furballers however, do NOT harm the strat players fun. All they do is choose not to participate in the strategic war. That's their decision, but it doesn't stop the strat-minded players from doing their thing. "
This statement says that if player A chooses to destroy a target with a bomber, that effects player B
But that if player A elects not to shoot down enemy interceptors over the target it does not effect player A

This cannot be true. Both are effecting the game of the other by their decisions.

[Lephturn]

Pongo,

Whether the enemy interceptors are shot down or not is irrelevent.  Those flying buffs can bring escorts, can fly more buffs, fly higher, whatever.  The point is they can at least TRY, they have the freedom to launch in their chosen ride and do their best.  When the FH's go down, those flying fighters can't even launch them.  No options at all, other than find another place to fight.  It's not that we'd be outnumbered, or that we would get shot down most likely.  We don't have a choice.

If you are a strat player who is into base taking, it's up to you to provide cover for your buffs, CAP over fields, etc.  Nothing the furball crowd does prevents you from taking bases.  The only thing that can stop the strat players is for them not to have enough like minded players to accomplish their goals.  That's not the fault of those who choose to play differently, and it doesn't PREVENT the strat players from doing their thing, just makes it more difficult.

The only way the two types of players would limit each other equally, is if the furball crowd had a good reason, almost a necessity, to destroy BH's wherever they went.

But, it's not a huge problem.  Sometimes it can be, but the new field designs on the way will likely mitigate the problem to a degree.  A small change in radar (so that dumping HQ doesn't totally remove it) and I think both types of players would live together in the main with a reasonable compromise.

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Sean "Lephturn" Conrad - Aces High Chief Trainer

A proud member of the mighty Flying Pigs
http://www.flyingpigs.com

Check out Lephturn's Aerodrome for AH articles and training info!

[popeye]

"the new field designs on the way will likely mitigate the problem to a degree. A small change in radar (so that dumping HQ doesn't totally remove it) and I think both types of players would live together in the main with a reasonable compromise."

I don't think so.  The strat guys are STILL gonna need to shut down fighters to capture a field.  Maybe it'll take more effort with the new layout, but that is still the goal, and the furball guys will get pissed when it happens.

There needs to be a place for furballs that doesn't figure in the strat game.  A separate area in the MA, or a separate arena.

[SeaWulfe]

 

Originally posted by popeye:
There needs to be a place for furballs that doesn't figure in the strat game.  A separate area in the MA, or a separate arena.

Dueling Arena has an area setup for 3 country furballs.
-SW

[Nifty]

Hey Leph, if you started taking out BH's so the strat guys couldn't take out FH's, wouldn't that make you a strat guy then?    Just some lighthearted humor.  Please don't embarrass me next time you run across me in the MA.  

And in defense of Leph here, I don't think he is talking about bringing FH's down for a base takeover, he knows that's part of taking over a base.  He's referring to taking down FHs when you don't have an immediate intent to take over that particular base.

[Pongo]

leph
"When the FH's go down, those flying fighters can't even launch them. No options at all, other than find another place to fight."
And how is the option to fight somewhere else signigigantly different the the option to bring escort?

[Lephturn]

Pongo,

The difference is that you can't "find someplace else to fight" that easily much of the time.  The difference is that the buff drivers have the option to participate in the fight, win or lose.  The furballers don't have the option.  All they can do is go away and find a different fight.

Heh, yeah Nifty, that's true.  

Yep, FH's need to come down for a base capture, and I can live with that.  If they are difficult enough to bring down and I have a chance to prevent it, then I'm pretty happy.  The manable acks and new FH placements may do it for me.

However, I still think popeye is basically right.  To solve the problem, a separate area in the main that is not part of the strat system is needed.  Then nobody needs to complain, because either type of player has an option all the time.

SeaWulfe, read what I wrote above about a separate arena.  It won't work, that's not the point, AND it would be bad for the strat guys too.  The main arena has to accomodate as many different play styles as possible and keep the numbers up.  That's the point of the main.

IMHO of course.

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Lephturn

[This message has been edited by Lephturn (edited 05-23-2001).]

[SeaWulfe]

 

Originally posted by Lephturn:
SeaWulfe, read what I wrote above about a separate arena.  It won't work, that's not the point, AND it would be bad for the strat guys too.  The main arena has to accomodate as many different play styles as possible and keep the numbers up.  That's the point of the main.

WB has been around for close to 7 years with the same type of arena format.

In the beginning, fighters could spawn until the field was captured. But back in the day, we also had to land a single plane to capture the field.

Putting troops down is another thing. There's NO way to drop fuel to 0% to stop planes from taking off. When you have to drive or fly troops in they are sitting targets, it shouldn't take 15 guys to CAP a field so the drunks can run in to the tower.

Fact of the matter is that the game DOES cater to everyone. "furballs" are just an excuse, they are just as fluid as the front line is and you should know that if you've been around for a long time.

Eventually one side decides "Hey this ain't worth it" and the furball dies down and moves somewhere else. With or without the fighters being stopped from coming.

I'm not a strat guy, I'll lend a hand in capturing a base (strafing ack or hitting GVs or just keeping planes on the ground) and I like to dogfight.

Why is it I have no problems doing things the way I like as it is, but you guys that have proclaimed yourselves "furballers" can't grasp the concept?

You just move to a different field and look for a new fight. Or you start one. I've never logged off with a "well this night sucked" attitude.

The MA is a place for air combat and revolves around base capture to promote air combat and fierce fights.

If all you want to do is fly in circles playing "daisy chain" with a bunch of like minded individuals without concern that something might disrupt it... then it's quite obvious you are in the wrong arena.

It does appeal to all types, I fail to see how it doesn't.

Oh one thing that seperates me from you I guess Leph is that when I see a bomber coming to my field to knock down the FH I climb up to him and attack and kill him. You DO have a say in whether or not your FH get knocked down.. it's just up to YOU to respond to the threat.

9kills of B17Gs, 0 deaths.
5kills of Lanc, 1 death.
1kill of B26B, 1 death.
4kills of TBMs, 0 deaths.
-SW

[anRky]

SeaWulfe, some of us don't like the strat game, or just get tired of it from time to time, and would like to be able to go somewhere that it doesn't have an affect us.

Personally, I'm mainly here for the scenarios and other historic events, although I also enjoy spending my time 'mindlessly furballing' when nothing else is going on.  I also like the opportunity for some good practice whenever a scenario is close.  I care nothing for the strat game.

It just seems *to me*, that I spend much too much time and effort figuring out what's going on, where the fight is, flying to the fight, then after I get there flying to where the fight has moved off to...

Most of the time I just want to get up and find a couple of good fights before I have to log off.

anRky

[Lephturn]

SW,

First of all, I often go after the incoming Buff, and at the very least I'll call it out to those who can intercept.  Even with an F6F5, which is far from the best choice for buff hunting.  Of course, if the buff is at 20k and I just rolled, I'm never going to stop him... sometimes that's just the way it goes.  Out of only about 50 kills so far this tour, I've taken out 2 B17's, 2 TBM's, a B26, and 3 C47's.  I've assisted on a few, and been downed a couple times by buffs, both times because I was attacking from a bad position because I was trying to stop him.  I don't have a problem with any of that.  I'm not looking for that to change.  

Agreed the FH's need to come down to take a field.  I've no problem with that either.  The changes in 1.07 will make it a bit tougher to take down the FH's alone, and that will make it a bit more of a fight for both sides... a good deal IMO.

The big problem comes when one side is being pounded, and their options are very limited.  Or when there are not a whole lot of people online, and there really isn't much of a fight anywhere but where the captures are taking place.  Another thread about this started because one fellow logged on to find his side down to 3 bases and all the FH's down.  Now THAT sucks.  That's not good for the game.

But lets get back to the point I was making.  I was explaining why separate arenas were bad, and why that's not a valid option IMO.  I don't disagree with much of the rest that you wrote, and I do agree that the main does a pretty good job of catering to different types of play.  I don't know who you are argueing with here for most of the post honestly.  I agree completely with a lot of what you said, but I don't see how any of it precludesa "fighter town" type of arrangement.

There is a potential benefit to a "fighter town" arangement within the MA.  Folks always have someplace to fly from is the big one.  Also, folks would be less likely to just log when they are getting pounded.  More folks staying online is better, I think you'd agree.  It's an increased chance for a spirited defense or a charge to reclaim territory.

What I'm missing is what the problem is with trying something like a "fighter town" in the main.  I fail to see how it would have a negative impact on the arena.  I think there are potential positive results from it, so I keep bringing it up.  Please, explain to me how a "fighter town" setup would hurt the MA as you see it.  I'm open minded on this, so maybe there is something I'm overlooking.

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Lephturn

[This message has been edited by Lephturn (edited 05-23-2001).]

[Nifty]

hmm, I've never had problems finding out where the big fights (save for when I log in and the DAR is already down.  Then I have to ask.)  The past couple of times I've logged in, I've only had time for a few sorties, so I just upped where the big furball was, and was thankful my mates were there.  

Leph, maybe I'm just not grasping the concept properly.  What is the difference in having an area in the MA that's "strat free" and the Dueling arena?  The only difference that I see is that in the Fighter Town concept, you get to hear and see what the Strat guys are doing.   To me it doesn't matter what the population of the main arena looks like in the log in screen if when you get in the arena, things are segregated.  Actually, I do see the difference.  It just makes it easier for you to switch between the strat free area, as you just can fly there or switch to the base without leaving the arena.

My point is that a separate area inside the Main Arena would have the same effect as if furballers went to the Duelling or Training arenas.  It would just aid those who want to switch playstyles often.

Now to make another point, I DO agree with you that we need to keep the MA numbers up, but the styles need to co-exist, not be segregated.  The original point of this thread would help that.  Losing DAR do to HQ bombings kills furballers ability to easily find the big fight.  Having at least the sector counter bars remain near friendly bases would help out immensely if the furball was to shift to another location.

[SeaWulfe]

I didn't say you have to participate in anything, but I certainly AM saying that you shouldn't allowed an arena within an arena to wander off to when HTC already built an arena WITH a FURBALL AREA within it. It gets used on Monday nights, most of the other time it goes unused.

So how's this. Instead of choosing the easy route of just logging off and coming here to piss n moan that you are outnumbered, out gunned, whatever.. you get a group of people that are also logging off because they are disguisted and hop yourselves right on over to the Dueling Arena and make use of that furball area.

Seems so simple to me...
-SW
ps: If you say that furballing improves your skills I'm going to have a hernia from laughing. The only thing furballing does is teach you a little better SA and how to daisy chain.. those are something I can do with my eyes closed.

[SeaWulfe]

 

Originally posted by Lephturn:
The big problem comes when one side is being pounded, and their options are very limited.  Or when there are not a whole lot of people online, and there really isn't much of a fight anywhere but where the captures are taking place.  Another thread about this started because one fellow logged on to find his side down to 3 bases and all the FH's down.  Now THAT sucks.  That's not good for the game.

I was online that night when this occured. I left around 11:00PM Eastern Time (they had 4 fields... atleast 2 were active) when I logged off to watch the Simpsons (yes at 11PM)... I read his message, logged back in at 11:45PM. The reset had occured. There couldn't of been more than 15 or 20 minutes where they simply couldn't take off because the radar bars were gigantic among those 4 fields when I was still there.

Anyways, this fighter town thing idea I don't like it because lets say there are 115 people online. Normal around 6PM Eastern.

Lets say 50 of them go to fighter town, leaving 65 people spread out on a very large map. Have you been online when there's 65 people? Good lord geezus almighty you can't find a damn thing unless 2 countries are pounding 1 trying to take a field.

Essentially I feel that a fighter town will reduce targets arena wide... so you don't really "fix" anything... you just, in fact, make it worse by further dilluting targets. Then you get one area for all 3 to congregate en masse and play daisy chains.

There are much better ways to make people want to keep teams even... hell one would be to simply have one squadron start up a webpage where the sqaudrons that rotate sign up for and place their order of rotation so that there aren't 2 huge squads on the same side at the same time.

Of course this requires end user effort, and we all know how far that goes.
-SW

[Nomde]

IMHO,
Let's play with Icons and DAR off  

Nomde
http://www.jump.net/~cs3" TARGET=_blank>63rd FS, 56th FG
"Zemke's Wolfpack"

 
"God loves the 56th cause we keep Heaven filled"

[Lephturn]

Nifty,

There is a huge difference between having a Dueling Arena and a small "strat free" area in the main.  You nailed it, it's easier to switch between the sheltered area and the strat part, and you can see/hear what's going on.  If they are still in the arena and there is somewhere to fly, those folks in the "fighter town" area will start to join in the rest of the main when they can I'd bet.  I know I would.  We need it so that when things get really nasty, folks don't log out.  It's pretty much irrelevent if they leave for another arena or just log off, it's bad when the leave the MA and THAT is why a separate arena is a bad idea.  IMHO.

I agree about the HQ killing all dar thing too.  If we can get that changed, get the new field layouts in 1.07, and maybe get some incentive perk wise to the heavily disadvantage side, this might be a much more rare problem.  However, I like the idea of something in the main that will mean folks can ALLWAYS grab their favourite fighter and have a go, regardless of the condition of the arena.  What if a newby just downloaded AH, logged in to the main for the first time, and happened to join the country that is getting pounded?  Wouldn't it make sense that base 1-2-3 (first one you pop up at for each country) were always good to launch from?  Existing customers have a place to fly from in extreme circumstances, and new ones can always launch their first sortie.

SeaWulfe,

You can say what you think people should do when the going gets tough, but that doesn't make it happen.  The fact is that right now people DON'T do what you describe.  A few might, but the majority just log in disgust.  Telling the few folks on the BBS what we should do instead isn't going to change that fact.  The fact that the DA doesn't get used in these times, just proves my point, that a separate arena won't work.

Where did that "furballing improves your skills" comment come from?  We all use the word "furball" a bit to liberally, but I'm certainly not looking for a furball in your narrow description of it.  I'm talking about a large in numbers and area air battle that is quite spread out and diverse.  One where I can likely choose my type of fight, and even my enemy to some degree.  Still, any air combat experience improves my skills more than logging off does.  

I think you are over-estimating how many folks would use a fighter-town type of arrangement, and under-estimating the affect the situation has on the arena the way things are.  That is, I say that people log out or switch sides now, and that's bad.  I say that anything that keeps them from leaving the main arena is a good thing, and can't have any more negative impact than folks logging off.

Now you lose me with the last bit.  What do you mean that you are "further dilluting the targets"?  I'm saying that folks should have someplace to go if their country is shut down.  Currently, they seem to either log off or switch sides.  I fail to see how having a "fighter town" area would make that any worse.  Sure, some of the pilots from the other teams would go to "fighter town" as well I'm sure, but your attack forces will likely be reduced only slighty, as would the defending forces be reduced.  I'd call that a draw.

So, as we have it now, in the situation mentioned above and our experience tells us that people either log out or switch sides... but mostly log out.  If they leave for another arena, it's the same as them logging out, since the main still gets smaller... but evidence shows they won't go to the DA but will just bail.  I say that keeping these folks in the main by some means such as fighter town can only help.  If they are still in the arena, I say they'll be much more likely to jump in on a defense when some options become available and lead to a much better fight.

Basically... we have a duelling arena.  That didn't work.  Why not try a "fighter town" type of arrangement?  If such an area would be as popular as you estimated (50% of the arena), it would be a smart move for HTC to try it.  The only reason I heard not to try it was that it might be TOO popular.  You can always limit that strat-free zone in various ways to control it's popularity.

Lephturn

[This message has been edited by Lephturn (edited 05-24-2001).]