Terrorism Quiz.

[Bluedog]

Originally posted by miko2d

slimm50: Miko,... What, exactly, prompted you to begin this thread? Just curious.


And that servant, which knew his lord’s will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more
  (Luke 12:47–48).

 miko

The Bible told you to do it??  This is gettin' scarier by the minute.

[miko2d]

Bluedog: The Bible told you to do it??  This is gettin' scarier by the minute.

 
 The Bible is a good source of allegoric sayings for all occasons, even for atheists.

 miko

[cpxxx]

The truth is none of us really knows how we'd react in that situation unless it happens. Stress does funny things to people. Some want to hide, some run, some want to help others. You just don't know. Most likely I would try to get my family away from the scene. That I think would be my only interest. Protect the family. Now in real life I don't have a family so just how I'd react I don't know. Cower in the corner, run screaming, help others, stand there dumbly in shock. None of us really knows.  At a guess given previous stressful experiences I suspect I would suppress any emotional reaction and move through the scene in a rather detached way, probably helping some people, ignoring some and finally drifting away home. I think that would be a common experience of many in that situation. Luckily I've never had to experience something like that and hopefully never will.

[miko2d]

cpxxx: The truth is none of us really knows how we'd react in that situation unless it happens.

You must not have experience with activities that require serious or even reasonable training...

 For the rest of us training and preparation is what makes a huge difference in how we perform under stressfull conditions.

 You turn the wheels in a proper direction when your car is slipping, you keep pushing anti-lock brakes despite the vibration that makes you want to release the pressure, you do not struggle violently if being caught underwater, you do not run screaming while caught in a fire but crawl low and breeze as little as possible, you run forward - not back when under mortar fire attack, you stay motionless when a sniper is zeroing in on you and you shoot back in an ambush firefight rather than staying still and low. Etc. etc.

 All those things are contrary to instinct and following the instinct is suicidal. Numerous people do them every time because they had proper training and survive while poorely prepared people perish.

Stress does funny things to people. Some want to hide, some run, some want to help others.

 Yes. Stress makes me laugh. Stress makes me unable to think creatively. That's where the previousy thought of plan comes handy.

You just don't know.

 Some people are by nature totally useless in a crunch, true - but those are a very small minority. For most, right upbringing and preparation make a huge difference.


Now in real life I don't have a family so just how I'd react I don't know. Cower in the corner, run screaming, help others, stand there dumbly in shock. None of us really knows.

 Even if you do not know how you would react, does not it seem usefull to now how you need to react if you do happen to maintain control over yourself? You may as well run screeming back as forward...

 miko

[Doctorr]

I would like to add a liitle comment : i live in a terror stricken country ( Israel ) , and have experienced quite a few bomb attacks in restaurants.( worked in a trauma center and seen and heard the dead, wounded and relatives ).
Most of us here have had military training sometime or other in their life and are expected to know how to react to a given situation.
But Allass!! -Planning a strategic response in writing or training  is one thing and BEING there is another .
All you want to do is get the hell out of the restaurant !! Just remeber : a blast in a closed environmment ( like a restaurant ) has a multiplied effect which usually injures ALL the diners, some get killed , and the rest are wounded. ( just like an explosion in a bus ).Immediately after the blast there is a terrifying SILENCE for a few seconds and then all hell breaks loose , screaming , shouting , moaning , those who survived try to run for the exit , and try to avoid stepping on bodies while doing so. The bodies close to the explosion are usually torn to pieces and this adds to the sights that the wounded see.
So fellas , it's a good discussion and i could go on in details but still remeber : 1.- you cannot sight the terrorist untill its too late .
2. the bomb's weight can be VERY big ( 10 k"g, or more ) and thus render a huge disaster.
3.Try to get out of the area and wait for rescue .  

Doc

[miko2d]

Doc,

 Great to have you here. Could you please help with a bit of info that is not provided by the US media. What would you say is the ratio of the dead to wounded that got serious injuries, that require more than just a bandage and couple of weeks recovery? How many people are permanently disabled per each one killed?

 The americans have an impression that you get a few killed, kill a couple of militants in responce and the count is in your favor. They do not know about thousands maimed each year.

 9/11 was not instructive in that regard, since practically all the victims died and very few survived with injuries.

 As for the blask effects in limited space, you are right, but not every space that appears limited actually is. There is a huge difference whether the room has brick/concrete walls or a drywall and a lot of windows. Those get blown away like paper and do not confine/channel the explosion.
 Of course I know that you people build most of the stuff from concrete. A 20 pounds of explosive would probably level the whole block of american frame houses.

 miko

[Doctorr]

Just for numbers : in the last terrorist attack in the "Maxim" restaurant in Haifa - an attack that took place on Saturday at 1400 hrs ( the most crowded hour  in a very popular restaurant ) , there were 21 dead and about 50 wounded.
Between the dead : 2 whole families :1: grandfather & mother , son and wife + a kid ( 3 yrs old ) . 2: husband +wife+ 2 small children ( 9yrs and 5 yrs ) + grandmother .
Between the wounded : most of them have already been released from hospital ( about 35 of them ) , the rest are still in hospital, 2 in a very serious condition ( small 4 yr old child with a brain injury ) and the rest with orthopedic \ vascular \chest wounds .
Just for the info : the "lightly"  wounded  who have been released suffer from deafness ( torn eardrums ) , burns of face , scars for life and not to mention the pshychological effect that will last for years.
In most of the attacks usually the numbers are similar to what i've written up to now, sometimes in bus explosions the number of dead is higher than the wounded.
The wounded suffer for years onward , going from operation to operation trying to rebuild their life .
many suffer from "trauma shock " - with no physical injury but a large mental impact .( usually bystanders who where close by and were exposed to the sights , sounds and smell ( yes yes, there is a very typicall smell of gunpowder mixed with charred bodies ).

Doc

[cpxxx]

Milo said:

You must not have experience with activities that require serious or even reasonable training...

Miko, I have to say I found your reply to my post mildly patronising. But for your information: I have been in the military, had some first aid training and am a pilot. All of which require serious and reasonable training and have led to stressful moments where the right decision must me made instantly. My experience of how I actually reacted in some situations leads me to believe that I would remain relatively calm in a bomb situation. Your confidence in your ability is commendable. But in many of the scenarios mentioned there is an expectation of potential danger.
The last thing you expect while relaxing in a cafe on a nice day is to find yourself in a life threatening situation a moment later. There is no preparation for that.  You and I just don't know how any one person is going to react. Doctorr has summed it up a lot better than me.  He knows what it's really like.

Training can help but you still don't know. I met a veteran of the Croat army who told me that his unit came under fire for the first time, some of his unit cowered in terror and some reacted aggressively as trained, some remained calm, some almost panicked. There was no way of telling beforehand who would do so.

It's all very well thinking you are prepared but this is not a movie. Real life has no script.

[Gunthr]

Under extreme stress, when the mind goes out the window, most people will react as they have been trained.

Simple things, like training to reload immediately after exhausting ammo - even if threats have been knocked down - saves lives.

Repeatedly going through the motions of clearing jams, stovepipes, improperly seated magazines - over and over saves lives. It becomes part of the "muscle memory", and you will do it as you've been trained without even realizing that you are doing it under conditions of extreme stress.

Likewize, the process of visualizing "what if" scenarios is valuable simply because it provides your mind with a kind of previous experience that can be applied if a scenario actually happens. If you go through these mental excersizes because reacting the right way is important to you, you are far more likely to do the right thing. I don't think anyone can debate this.

[miko2d]

cpxxx: Miko, I have to say I found your reply to my post mildly patronising.

You should have seen how offencive that line was before the edit...
 Certainly I did not believe you to be a totally incompetent person -  it was intended to be mildly offensive/sarcastic.

 You come into discussion and issue a blank statement that   preparation and training does not make sense because nobody knows how he will react.
 Unpredictability is a cause for more preparation, not less.

 There is no area of human action, (outside some reflexive physical activities where over-analysing can screw up natural prowess - like golf) where more correct knowlege would be a handicap and not possibly beneficial.

Your confidence in your ability is commendable.

 Nothing to do with that. I can accumulate and share knowlege that I cannot use but some people may.

The last thing you expect while relaxing in a cafe on a nice day is to find yourself in a life threatening situation a moment later.

 Don't you always check any premices you enter for the location of exits and fire-extinguishers? If not for bombing, then for loss of electric power, or a fire or a car plowing in from the street. It does not even have to be fully concious - just like car driving.

...some reacted aggressively as trained, some remained calm, some almost panicked. There was no way of telling beforehand who would do so.

 First, having trained for some situation makes it less likely that a person will panic. Instead of running around thinking "oh, god, what to I do" he will at least think "I was taught that, I am supposed to deal with it, what was I told?"
 Second, those people who do not panic must still know what to do.
 It does not help if a person keeps his head and calmly steps up front into more danger instead of as calmly going through the back door and directoing otehrs to do so.
 It does not help if a person goes to help a victim who is unconcious rather than one who is bleeding but claiming that he is not hurt badly.

It's all very well thinking you are prepared but this is not a movie. Real life has no script.

 Sure it does. Not as simple as in the movie but preparation generally pays. There are no guarantees of course, only the percentages.

 miko

[cpxxx]

Originally posted by miko2d
You come into discussion and issue a blank statement that   preparation and training does not make sense because nobody knows how he will react.
 Unpredictability is a cause for more preparation, not less.

and
 
 Don't you always check any premices you enter for the location of exits and fire-extinguishers? If not for bombing, then for loss of electric power, or a fire or a car plowing in from the street. It does not even have to be fully concious - just like car driving.

First off, I did not state or imply training does not make sense. It does. But realistically no preparation can prepare you for the overwhelming moment of being caught in a bomb blast and the emotional state you find yourself in. Sure training and preparation is good. But in practice most members of the public are not ready for that situation. From my own knowledge, the best people at the scene initially are usually off duty, medics, firefighters, cops etc. People who see trauma all the time. For the rest of us the sight of severed and quivering body parts might freak us out completely.  That could happen to me, I just don't know until the moment. You really can't prepare for that. Which is my point. Your point is that we all should prepare and that is a good point. That kind of thinking can be applied to any potential crisis, trivial or major and is good thinking.

Yes I do check out premises for exits etc and I keep my eyes open for dangers, hell, I even use those methods to avoid my boss when I'm skiving.      But that's just me, partly from the background growing up in a country where bombs, while not daily occurences, did happen. I checked out cars in the street and packages in public areas and avoided streets where bombs had previously been placed. I suspect anyone growing up in Ireland, particularly Northern Ireland or Britain in the last thirty years are more aware of issues like that. Potential terrorism was a daily fact of life.

But I still don't think everyone can be like that or even that I will react sensibly should the worst happen. I'll let you know if I ever find out!

[miko2d]

cpxxx: But realistically no preparation can prepare you for the overwhelming moment of being caught in a bomb blast and the emotional state you find yourself in.

 How about if you are not in a restaurant that experienced a blast but the one across the street. You hear a pop, see broken glass but no blood. Should you send your wife and child out the back door or into the street while you do whatever you think you should do personally?

 How about if you have to clear a building due to a bomb warning? Do you step out through the main entrance and wait in the middle of a major avenue or do you try to get through service entrance and at least stay in the middle of a block on the small street?

Sure training and preparation is good. But in practice most members of the public are not ready for that situation.

 True. But raady is not yes or no thing - rather more or less concept. And why do you care about "most members of the public". If they die of stupidity, does not mean your family should.

For the rest of us the sight of severed and quivering body parts might freak us out completely.

 Helps to know a madical professional or a student who can take you to anathomical theater and attend training operation on a corpse. At the very least, there are some sites on the Web that host extremely graphical close-up images of bodily damage or a scene of a major disaster (like the most recent Ukraine airshow crash). So the freak-factor may be diminished or at least accustomed to.
 It certainly does not help to see many dead people and mangled body parts for the first time in a situation where quick thinking is required.
 It's all in the head and the head can be somewhat adjusted.

You really can't prepare for that.... Your point is that we all should prepare and that is a good point.

 ?? I guess you mean that we can prepare as much as we can but not expect total readiness.
 By the way, the very process of solving/preparing a certain task improves a person's ability to solve tasks of similar kind in general. Your fire and dust and suspicious smell scenarios contain the part of holding your breath, not moving frantically and looking/thinking for the exit before acting - but if you happen to be pulled underwater by undertow, the same technique applies even if you neglected to train for it.

 That kind of thinking can be applied to any potential crisis, trivial or major and is good thinking.

But that's just me, partly from the background growing up in a country where bombs, while not daily occurences, did happen.

 Now it can happen in our country. A hallmark of an intelligent person is ability to learn on other people's experience.

I'll let you know if I ever find out!

 Let's hope you don't have to.

 miko

[cpxxx]

Originally posted by miko2d
cpxxx: But realistically no preparation can prepare you for the overwhelming moment of being caught in a bomb blast and the emotional state you find yourself in.

 How about if you are not in a restaurant that experienced a blast but the one across the street. You hear a pop, see broken glass but no blood. Should you send your wife and child out the back door or into the street while you do whatever you think you should do personally?

 How about if you have to clear a building due to a bomb warning? Do you step out through the main entrance and wait in the middle of a major avenue or do you try to get through service entrance and at least stay in the middle of a block on the small street?

Oddly enough I was thinking about that as I drove home this afternoon. Yes You have got me thinking!! That perhaps is a more realistic scenario. With a family present they must come first and be led to safety. Perhaps then I might return to help. With no family present then I would have to help immediately and until my services were no longer required. Most people would do that, I think.

As for the bomb warning, well I've been in that situation, although a hoax although there was no way of knowing that at the time. Leave by the nearest exit is the best option, preferably to the rear away from parked cars. Get as far away as possible and get off the street. That still may not save you.
In 1998 in the small town of Omagh in Northern Ireland a bomb was planted by dissident members of the IRA. A warning was given, as was the custom. But it was inaccurate by accident or design and many people were evacauted  right into the path of the car bomb 400 metres away. The result: 29 dead  and 210 injured. All civilians standing in the street. That is what you are up against.