Incendiary .50 Cal

[Nath-BDP]

Westy said:

 

AlI I can say is I noticed this is one topic that NathBDP is conspicuously absent from.

I don't see any problems with any of the guns, its just that jamming/overheating of the barrels etc isn't modeled, which gives the advantage to hispanos.

That and the fact that I don't have much info on aircraft weaponry from WW2.

[Fishu]

 

Originally posted by Zigrat:
hooligan

i believe the problem lies in the fact that the hispano currently has as good of HE explosive power as the Mg151

I agree with you that the hispano round has superior ballistics and armor penetrating capability to the MG151, and that the round should fly faster and straighter, and be far superior in anti armor operations.

However, the hispano cannon did NOT use the HE ammo very often because of severe gun jamming problems encountered when using it, and when it WAS used, the hispano cartridge was not as explosively charged as far as I know.

So what does this mean? To me, it means the MG151 should be a much better Buff killer (since thats what the germans wer eprimarily doing) and the hispano should be great at anti armor operations (see hurricane IIc)

From what I know, the rounds used in hispano cannon were by and large AP only, not the mix found in aces high today.

If there are AP rounds in the MG151 bullet stream, i would prefer they be removed and only a HE round be used, since that is what was typically used.


The end result will be typhoons being used to kill panzers (great!) and 190s being used to kill b17s (also great!). Funny how if the game was setup realistically, engagements would tend to be mroe realistic  

I think you said just that what I've been trying to say...


this discussion in UBB is hard if you need to bring in some library with you..
WHY do we need some proves of this and that, why can't we just be civilized and discuss of it instead of flaming other of having this and that prove with him.

heh.. or is it just to make the guy look even more wrong when you don't have any better ideas left?
This would work, because when you think logically.. you'll find out that not many will have needed books or sources for everything, even if the guy might had seen those 'proves' somewhere elsewhere but can't obtain the source to prove it.

Well.. hooligan, show me YOUR proves, let me use the same method  

and funked.. I know you're lucky one to have library with you.. so don't help hooligan okey?  

[Hooligan]

Fishu:

Here is some information that I based my arguments on.

 http://home.earthlink.net/~jayboyer/b-20mmTabelle4.jpg
 http://home.earthlink.net/~jayboyer/50pen.htm
 http://home.earthlink.net/~jayboyer/50traj.htm
 http://home.earthlink.net/~jayboyer/minetraj.jpg
 http://home.earthlink.net/~jayboyer/gebelt.jpg

This site has some useful general information about Aircraft weapons.
 http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/8217/fgun/fgun-fr.html

Your turn.  And saying that you are “too lazy” is not an acceptable answer.

Hooligan

[Westy]

"I don't see any problems with any of the guns"

 Sorry Nath. Of course you wouldn't.   You're the one of the 109 pilots I'm refering to that fly the 109 like a Zeke even when you're loaded down to the gills in ammo and gunpods.

A 109 with 30m and extra gun-pods = the "no ping" wonder destroyer.

  -Westy

[Fishu]

 

Originally posted by Hooligan:

Your turn.  And saying that you are “too lazy” is not an acceptable answer.

Eh, I go to library perhaps once in 1-2 months and it is totally in another direction where I usually travel.
I don't own car either..

...and would I really get some book from there just to prove for someone in internet something, which would have no use at all?


Now, as you've given "some kind" of proves, we'll go into the second part of the "proof" case which I've stumbled into when I've had proves.

How can I really believe those are correct information?
There is been alot propaganda with these things and might be test by people who would maybe tweak the numbers a bit for their favor... <include other suspicious talking here>

Now.. mr. Hooligan, are you begining to get the point?

Of course theres little mistake here, of course you have "some sort" of diagrams for the guns because you did yourself ask me to prove something.. but when it would be about something else, it could be different and you couldn't put up anything worth trusting. (or you could of course show fakes..)

Okey.. there were few examples for the "proof" - case.

westy,
You were earlier telling about Aper right?
My experiences of Aper is that hes lagging often and warping sometimes (the times i've encountered him.. and I did actually see lag last time I killed him about week ago)

Another thing that I've noticed is that if you get hit by one 30mm, you might not hear ping at all.. just crunch and there you go..
But I have only once got 1 hit kill in 109 with 20mm's..  very tough lead shot on a fast speed 190 which was turning and I had luckily almost top hit on him, I saw at least or only one hit through my instruments and he blew up (and I wondered did he blow up of that only)
Must been a 20mm into cockpit.

talking of this, sometimes I don't get pilot kill at all when I strafe the cockpit like mad, sometimes it comes with hit in elsewhere on the plane..
i go for cockpit sometimes.. specially I like that spot against bombers if I don't have Hispanos with me.. got to use up the lack of power in the pilot

In fighter I rarely hear more than couple pings and I have been torn into pieces (and sometimes trying to verify amount of hits by asking, when I think that it couldn't been couple hits)
In bombers I usually hear sheetloads of pings, long after I've got killed.

Any plane can turn like zeke actually...
You have right amount of speed, trimmed up.. you pull and plane makes one sick instant turn.
I think problem lies with too good trims and in blackout modelling.
it seems that you could in theory pull 15G turn and still have control over the plane in AH. (if plane wouldn't break up  )
In one version P-51's did these instant turns constantly.. (even worst than 109 that ive seen)

hmm.. maybe I'll quit writing any further so I don't totally mess up myself and my talking.

[Vermillion]

Ever notice that on certain subjects there is a "group or community knowledge" thing, where people say that "everyone knows that..."

And its especially prevalent when the discussion about German vs. Allied cannons comes up.

Here's a few from this thread, but I'm not picking on anyone in particular, because you see these "facts" stated frequently.

 

the hispano cannon did NOT use the HE ammo very often because of severe gun jamming problems encountered when using it, and when it WAS used, the hispano cartridge was not as explosively charged as far as I know.

Urban myth. Do some serious research on armaments, and in particular the Hispano. Yes, in its early developement the Hispano had jamming problems, but it was solved by both the British and Americans by using different approaches. Just like many other pieces of equipment we use in AH, that had teething problems but were solved.

And while AP ammo was more common during the early parts of the war, due to its ease of manufacture, HE ammo did exist and became more prevalent as the war went on. I have seen pictures that show mixed AP/HE belted ammo for the Allied, and I have personally held in my hand WWII-era 20mm Hispano HE ammunition that was being demanufactured/recycled. Plus I can provide sources of information on the HE ammunition and so can Hooligan.

 

From what I know, the rounds used in hispano cannon were by and large AP only, not the mix found in aces high today.

Again, see above. Where exactly have you gotten this proof? Honestly, I would love to see anything that proves this. But everytime I ask, people just say "I heard" or "I know".

 

If there are AP rounds in the MG151 bullet stream, i would prefer they be removed and only a HE round be used, since that is what was typically used.

Another patently false urban myth. Even during the great bomber offensives on the western front in the summer of 1944, the Germans used mixed AP/HE/Mine belting of ammunition. Its quoted on Gustins page (which is linked earlier in the thread), from a german source. And if you look at the same source which gives the specific belting used at the same time on the Eastern front, you will see even more of an emphasis on AP and AP/HE due to the type of combat prevalent there.

Also, lets consider that the Summer of 1944 in the ETO (when the highest proportion of anti-heavy bomber operations took place) did not represent the war as a whole for Germany and German armaments.

What about 1939 to 1943? What about BOB, the Channel Front Battles, the North African Campaign, and the entire Eastern Front? Was the emphasis during all those times exclusively anti-heavy bomber operations? Of course not. So do you honestly think that the Germans used exclusive HE or Mine shell loadouts during those periods?

Aces High will eventually represent the entirity of WWII (currently 1942-1945). So to me at least, the ammunition should represent the range of possibilities of the entire war.

Cannons and Lethality is a hobby of mine. I have done alot of research on the subject, but admittedly, I don't know as much as Hooligan. But I can definitely say that I have gotten past the "I heard" or "We all know" stage, and gotten down to looking for facts.

I mean, we all know Germany lost the war, so they should have crappy planes and guns, right?  




------------------
Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure

[Fishu]

Vermillion,

From that what I've read, Spit V and IX still had somewhat bad reliability problems with the Hispano Mk.II, where Spit II had even worse problems with earlier Hispano.
I remember reading that Hispano Mk.IV was first more reliable version of Hispano and it was done later than IX or V.. (I think that Tempest and Spit XIV had Hispano IV)
I read these stuffs some 4 years ago.. I've been wishing for long time that I could find that source on my hands again.
There was alot different versatiles of planes and blaablaa story for each.

I think there read also that Mg151/20 was alot more reliable than any Hispano until Mk.IV (though, not sure if I read this from another source)

[Hooligan]

Yes Fishu I get the point.  The point is you don't really know anything and you can't show us any data or tell us your sources because you have nothing to show.

Hooligan

[-lazs-]

Face it fishu.... all german ammo and especially the mg 151, were weak, slow, unreliable pissants.   i have seen several quotes that say those exact things and it is well documented in books that i don't have but are at my local library.   I would post those quotes but the library is out of my way and besides.... everyone but you feels the same way.   Many U.S. pilots that were hit by german rounds reported a nasty welt and large bruise that was very close to the injuries sustained in a dirt clod throwing fight.
lazs

[Fishu]

   

Originally posted by -lazs-:
Face it fishu.... all german ammo and especially the mg 151, were weak, slow, unreliable pissants.   i have seen several quotes that say those exact things and it is well documented in books that i don't have but are at my local library.   I would post those quotes but the library is out of my way and besides.... everyone but you feels the same way.   Many U.S. pilots that were hit by german rounds reported a nasty welt and large bruise that was very close to the injuries sustained in a dirt clod throwing fight.
lazs

I have never said that I have trouble with german or russian guns...
Actually, I find those the best guns for the gaming fun, because they don't kill instantly on one hit.

Also, if we come to this, we could begin wondering why does Hispano, which I hear alot that it used AP mostly, does damage like HE with the penetration of AP?

I am not looking for making Hispano weaker than MG151/20 or ShVAK, but making Hispano bit weaker, when it still would be far more powerful than those two above.
Right now, I feel those Hispanos somewhat super for a 20mm when compares to any other 20mm cannon in the game..

The thing is, that AP shouldn't rip wings off by one hit unless it hits fuel tank or weak point, it shouldn't happen constantly (definetly not from above.. from right behind it might really cut structure and collapse wing)
If HE manages to get through the wing from above, I figure that it would do more damage because it won't just go through, but blast off some surrounding with it.
Of course AP round does nice big hole too if it has correct shape and velocity, I am not that dumb that I'd think it would make nice 20mm hole into everything what it goes through.

Okey, you won hooligan.. I am not THAT serious as you are.
I am not gonna waste my time looking for proves everyday for every topic that I happen to read.
I don't talk bullcrap, not my style.. if you still can't discuss about something without proves.. please, ignore my posts.

[This message has been edited by Fishu (edited 11-02-2000).]

[Maverick]

Fishu =     &    

[-lazs-]

fishu... I will drop down to your level and tell you how it "feels" to me.   the HS feels like a pretty good cannon.   All the cannon feel pretty good to me.   I do have proof tho that the HS is NOT A ONE PING KILLER.   What proof?   I got a whole bunch... probly about 20%, assists using nothing but the 4 cannon C HOG... If it were a 1 ping killer, I would have..... Zero assists.   Now, it just doesn't get any simpler than that does it?   Maybe the Spit is easier to kill with than the lag but I can't tell..
lazs

[Ripsnort]

Give me a few hours and I can provide you with film of 100 rounds of Hispano going into a B26 fuselage, with the B26 flying away happily.  Hispanos are fine guys, and they already toned them down once.

[Fishu]

 

Originally posted by -lazs-:
fishu... I will drop down to your level and tell you how it "feels" to me.   the HS feels like a pretty good cannon.   All the cannon feel pretty good to me.   I do have proof tho that the HS is NOT A ONE PING KILLER.   What proof?   I got a whole bunch... probly about 20%, assists using nothing but the 4 cannon C HOG... If it were a 1 ping killer, I would have..... Zero assists.   Now, it just doesn't get any simpler than that does it?   Maybe the Spit is easier to kill with than the lag but I can't tell..
lazs

Never said that it does everytime with one..
in testings it does kills per 1-3 hit or damages plane so that it surely won't fly long (read; ditch or landing with no engine and couple other parts)

while other cannons has *2 this.
with other cannons 1 hit kill was extremely rare and those started from +2 hits... while average were around 4 or more..  with hispano average was 2-3. (testings within 480 yards)
and this also means that you don't spray the plane all around...

but with random spray & pray tactic HS/M2 owns.

though, my main grip is *not* against fighters... in testings I was satisfied with results within 300-400 yards where all cannons were fairly much the same.
though, at extreme range, other cannons are almost nothing but Hispano still does 1-2 hit kills.. (all on my own experiences as the HS shooter)

Okey.. then we go to my main worry which is lethality of HS against bombers.
Against bombers Hispano is very very lethal while MG151/20 or ShVAK damages alot before anything nasty comes.
Often I tend to blow up the bombers with HS, but with MG151/20 or ShVAK, they get smoky first and lose some parts until they finally lose something vital.
I just wonder this; if Hispano is AP.. it goes nicely for fighters, but what it does for bombers that HE doesn't?
I've seen pictures of B-17s that has got back home from mission after MG151/20 hits.. and I can say those are NOT small holes for a one 20mm hit. You could put your head through the hole.
Now.. what does HS with AP round do?
blow up even bigger hole?  with what?
(and blow up with what?  with some sonic shock eh?  )

I think I'll do testings with these bombers.. as I find someone to do job of the target.
Main arena experience so far is that I prefer 2xHS more than 3xmg151/20 on 109. (or 2x20mm and 1x30mm)
other thing here is also that I tend to shoot buffs from very close range in 109 or 190, while in HS armed planes I tend to spray from longer range and break off if I don't see a chance going right by the bomber.

Though, this lethality effect has me confused anyway;
In PZ-IV H I often shoot other tanks just couple times from 3.5k (or something like that.. hard to know when no scaling in the gunsight beyond 3.2-3.4k)
but when I am right next to them, I might hit them even 10 times.. (I got at least one if not two films of this that I remembered to film)

it has made me wonder if gun lethality chart has turned around so that long range shots actually counts damage as close range and close shots as long range hits.
In planes this is also seen.. I was amazed when I hit 109 4 times with f4u 1C at range of 200 yards, which of 2-3 hit the wing and two somewhere else.. and i was awarded with assist after other guy shot the wing i had hit.

[-lazs-]

fishu... I have done guns testing in the other sim.. it is a long process.   i will be glad to test gunsets with you in the training arena if you hail me when i am up.   You can fly a bomber and I will try the fighters or vice versa.   We will have to test for more than a couple of hrs tho to get any kind of database but at least we won't be talking about "feel"  anymore.
lazs