Author Topic: Hiroshma Vault (Read 1591 times)

miko2d · « **Reply #15 on:** October 23, 2003, 02:39:42 PM »

Sixpence: Right, but what i'm saying is the doolittle raid would have little difference in the number of chinese killed.

Little? Don't you think that saying "quarter of million chinese more or less, who is counting" is a bit callous?

All chinese who had lived in that time would have died sooner or later. That does not mean they had to die because of the stupid US publicity stunt.

If they didn't have to spend resources on fighting the U.S., they probably would have eliminated alot more chinese.

I am not speaking against the war. Just that the stunt was an attempt to impress the american public. You see - the president did not believe the americans had the guts to oppose the "mighty enemy" after the "crushing blow" of Pearl Harbor and (correctly?) believed the people to be too stupid not to see that the raid had no military significance whatsover fro the amount of resources expended - even without the loss of chinese lifes.

miko

capt. apathy · « **Reply #16 on:** October 23, 2003, 02:44:47 PM »

Quote

I am not speaking against the war. Just that the stunt was an attempt to impress the american public.

more like a moral booster, a turning point. much like in a ball game how one side can be getting beat soundly, then one guy hits a home run and the whole momentum changes, and they can come back and win.

making people (yours and theirs) believe you can win is the first step in making it happen.

miko2d · « **Reply #17 on:** October 23, 2003, 02:58:18 PM »

capt. apathy: making people (yours and theirs) believe you can win is the first step in making it happen.

Right, treating your people like mindless primitives and trying to impress them with flashy tricks rather than trying to talk to them as intelligent beings.

Why not just say "People, we are a huge productive country and Japain is small and devoid of resources, we can turn out eight new aircraft carriers for each one they build, besides we are a democracy and they are not, it will take some hard work but we will sure win".

It was not a home run, whatever the newspapers said.

miko

Sixpence · « **Reply #18 on:** October 23, 2003, 03:02:44 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by miko2d
Sixpence: Right, but what i'm saying is the doolittle raid would have little difference in the number of chinese killed.

Little? Don't you think that saying "quarter of million chinese more or less, who is counting" is a bit callous?

You are right, I just think they would not have been spared anyway. If they didn't have to fight the U.S., they might have done to the chinese what hitler did to the jews.

I am not speaking against the war. Just that the stunt was an attempt to impress the american public. You see - the president did not believe the americans had the guts to oppose the "mighty enemy" after the "crushing blow" of Pearl Harbor and (correctly?) believed the people to be too stupid not to see that the raid had no military significance whatsover fro the amount of resources expended - even without the loss of chinese lifes.

Well, I wouldn't term it as a stunt to impress the american public. It goes a little deeper than that. You would have to live through it to explain it. I can only go by what i've been told by people who did. It lifted a desparate nation when it needed it the most. Did it prevoke the japanese to seek retribution against the chinese? Yes. Would they have killed those same chinese as they conquered china? yes. The japanese were pretty ruthless, I believe if they had the resources, alot more chinese would have been eliminated, or enslaved.

I see your point Miko. But if I had to make the decision again, I wouldn't think twice. And it did have some military significance, some say this event was involved in the decision to take midway. If that is the case, then it played a major role in the war.

capt. apathy · « **Reply #19 on:** October 23, 2003, 03:15:50 PM »

Quote

Right, treating your people like mindless primitives and trying to impress them with flashy tricks rather than trying to talk to them as intelligent beings.

Why not just say "People, we are a huge productive country and Japain is small and devoid of resources, we can turn out eight new aircraft carriers for each one they build, besides we are a democracy and they are not, it will take some hard work but we will sure win".

It was not a home run, whatever the newspapers said.

I agree you make a very reasonable argument. the problem is very few people (%) use reason, they go on emotion, gut feeling, and they need symbols and hero's.

it's not logical, but more often than not it's the way it is.

vorticon · « **Reply #20 on:** October 23, 2003, 04:12:26 PM »

900ft huh...those japs sure new how to build a safe...

Gadfly · « **Reply #21 on:** October 23, 2003, 07:45:07 PM »

Miko, Miko, Miko, you know better than that stupid statement above, and if you don't, then you are not the intellect I thought you were.

Dago · « **Reply #22 on:** October 23, 2003, 09:03:36 PM »

I sure won't be confusing Miko as someone of great intellect.

Gadfly · « **Reply #23 on:** October 23, 2003, 09:05:16 PM »

You would be wrong, in general, then, Dago.

Shuckins · « **Reply #24 on:** October 23, 2003, 10:23:19 PM »

If memory serves, the Japanese dropped more bombs on Chungking than the U.S. did on the Japanese home islands during the whole of the war. By war's end, they had killed more than 10 million Chinese.

Chiang's forces also were also aware of the Doolittle raid and cooperated with the Americans whole-heartedly, even knowing what the Japanese might do in retaliation.

Psychologically, both the Chinese and the U.S. needed a stroke against the Japanese, even if it was a symbolic one. Doolittle's raid bolstered our flagging morale and dealt such a shock to the previously undefeated Japanese military that they precipitated the debacle at Midway.

It appears that the "spirit of revision" is beginning to change many American's views of these events. If you doubt the value of Doolittle's raid, talk to a few of the people who lived through and still remember those times. THEY can set the matter straight.

Shuckins

Maverick · « **Reply #25 on:** October 23, 2003, 11:22:19 PM »

Shuckins,

How DARE you inject historical accuracy in the rants from miko!!! Don't you know it's so much clearer 50+ years after the fact and allows you to make judgements of those who lived through that period and did not have the advantage of Monday morning quarterbacking the situation.

AKIron · « **Reply #26 on:** October 23, 2003, 11:34:48 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by miko2d
Little? Don't you think that saying "quarter of million chinese more or less, who is counting" is a bit callous?

All chinese who had lived in that time would have died sooner or later. That does not mean they had to die because of the stupid US publicity stunt.

Miko, please tell me that you're not blaming the US for the murder of Chinese by the Japanese.

Saintaw · « **Reply #27 on:** October 24, 2003, 02:43:58 AM »

I saw that vault. it's displayed in the Hiroshima (bomb) museum, in Hiroshima. it looks like it's been eaten away.. radiation or rust I don't know... but it didn't look fit.

miko2d · « **Reply #28 on:** October 24, 2003, 09:01:45 AM »

Sixpence: It lifted a desparate nation when it needed it the most.

Come on losing three thousand soldiers and a few obsolete battleships made the great american nation desperate? You can't really be of such low opinion of americans.
Have you seen a single published statement from 1941 where a single american said "we are doomed, our case is desperate..."?

And it did have some military significance, some say this event was involved in the decision to take midway. If that is the case, then it played a major role in the war.

I cannot imagine how it can possibly be but I have no basis to contest that assertion. If the Doolittle raid had a legitimate strategic purpose, I wish it was better publicised. I've read Doolittle's book and saw no mention of it.

capt. apathy: I agree you make a very reasonable argument. the problem is very few people (%) use reason, they go on emotion, gut feeling, and they need symbols and hero's.
it's not logical, but more often than not it's the way it is.

I recognise the benefit's of propaganda to encourage people's spirits. I was just critical about cost/benefit of this particular case even without the chinese.
Government could surely have found and overhyped the significance of some other heroics. I am sure that if Doolittle raid never happened, some other heroical and inspiring deed would have been found to fill the pages.

Gadfly: Miko, you know better than that stupid statement above, and if you don't, then you are not the intellect I thought you were.

I am not sure which statement you refer to. I am trying to make a case that the Doolittle raid was too expensive for the results it yielded - based on my subjective estimates. So I might be wrong and in any case there is no way to establish the truth.
I do not agree that the question is so obvious as to call arguing about it "stupid".

AKIron: Miko, please tell me that you're not blaming the US for the murder of Chinese by the Japanese.

No. That was a truly an unintended consequence.
Wasting planes and pilots and risking ships on a symbolic gesture was a bad decision in my opinion.

miko

AKIron · « **Reply #29 on:** October 24, 2003, 09:17:13 AM »

It's impossible to measure the precise value of Doolittle's raid. However, and I'm sure everyone here knows this, positive morale is an essential ingredient in winning wars. I don't see how anyone could have seen this successful raid at the time as anything but a big morale booster.