Author Topic: Hiroshma Vault  (Read 1594 times)

Offline Gadfly

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« Reply #30 on: October 24, 2003, 09:20:29 AM »
Why not just say "People, we are a huge productive country and Japain is small and devoid of resources, we can turn out eight new aircraft carriers for each one they build, besides we are a democracy and they are not, it will take some hard work but we will sure win".



That one, Miko.  And it IS stupid to think that FDR(or anyone) could make that type of statment and expect not to be laughed out of office.  You give "the public" credit for way too much intelligence.

Offline midnight Target

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« Reply #31 on: October 24, 2003, 09:26:46 AM »
Quote
No. That was a truly an unintended consequence.
Wasting planes and pilots and risking ships on a symbolic gesture was a bad decision in my opinion.

miko


Hindsight is 20-20 miko, but try to see it from the point of view of the time. We (USA) had been roundly beaten all the way across the Pacific from Hawaii to the Phillipines. There were NO victories or even the chance at one in the near future. The Doolittle raid was a morale boost for the entire Country. My parents still remember the news reports and FDR's famous line that the planes flew to Japan from "Shangri La".

Offline Eagler

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« Reply #32 on: October 24, 2003, 09:34:01 AM »
the raid was a stunt but it impacted Japans military strategy for the entire war. It also placed doubt in her ppl and their trust in their Emperors claim of invulnerability

even the US did not know how big an effect the raid had on the course of the war until years later

glance at the book in the link above if you get the chance
"Masters of the Air" Scenario - JG27


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Offline Maverick

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« Reply #33 on: October 24, 2003, 10:44:15 AM »
Lets not forget all the resources the Japanese tied up at home to defend against further raids on the homeland so early in the war. Yeah there was absolutely NO tactical or strategic value in that raid. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
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Offline miko2d

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« Reply #34 on: October 24, 2003, 11:46:36 AM »
midnight Target: We (USA) had been roundly beaten all the way across the Pacific from Hawaii to the Phillipines. There were NO victories or even the chance at one in the near future. The Doolittle raid was a morale boost for the entire Country. My parents still remember the news reports and FDR's famous line that the planes flew to Japan from "Shangri La".

 OK, you have a point here and first hand testimony. Were your parents or anyone they knew ready to sign a peace with Japan and satisfy their conditions - lifting of embargo, etc? I doubt it but the morale effect might have been sigificant.
 Could it be that is shut up the critcis who were blaming the lack of success in the war with Japan, whi attacked US, on the fact that FDR directed most of the resources on war with Germany - which did not attack US and did not pose the least threat to it (despite formal declaration of war).

 I will not concede this argument outright but I will admit that you may well be right. Who knows.

 Of cource "Shangri La" was a fiction, so FDR may as well have invented the whole raid and bombing.


Maverick: Lets not forget all the resources the Japanese tied up at home to defend against further raids on the homeland so early in the war.

 You have confirmation on that? The Doolittle's planes were met with AA fire and saw plenty of fighters around, so the japanese were already expending some resources.
 If anything, the raid and the lack of follow-up raids could have made evident to them the futility of such raids and let them free some resources for more important purposes...

 miko

Offline Sixpence

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« Reply #35 on: October 24, 2003, 01:17:12 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by miko2d
I cannot imagine how it can possibly be but I have no basis to contest that assertion. If the Doolittle raid had a legitimate strategic purpose, I wish it was better publicised. I've read Doolittle's book and saw no mention of it.
 miko


Watch the history channel, that is where I got it. The Japanese wanted to respond to the doolittle raid. Taking midway would allow their bombers to hit American targets. There was an argument at high levels of the japanese military, some thought it a high risk. But midway was finally chosen, the rest is history. The bombing of Tokyo was an embarrassment to the Japanese, responding was a top priority and they made a hasty decision to attack midway.

"Come on losing three thousand soldiers and a few obsolete battleships made the great american nation desperate? You can't really be of such low opinion of americans.
Have you seen a single published statement from 1941 where a single american said "we are doomed, our case is desperate..."? "

I remember how I felt after 9/11 , that sinking feeling and pit in my stomache. I wouldn't say I was desparate, but I felt pretty low. I could only imagine the feeling if it was an empire conquering the pacific heading for my backyard.
"My grandaddy always told me, "There are three things that'll put a good man down: Losin' a good woman, eatin' bad possum, or eatin' good possum."" - Holden McGroin

(and I still say he wasn't trying to spell possum!)

Offline muckmaw

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« Reply #36 on: October 24, 2003, 01:27:30 PM »
Those battleships were obsolete?

Offline Sixpence

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« Reply #37 on: October 24, 2003, 01:35:33 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by muckmaw
Those battleships were obsolete?


There were outdated. And the CV's were no where near pearl. Which leads to the black helicopter theory that the Japanes were baited into attacking and starting a war they could not win. Let the hijacking begin.
"My grandaddy always told me, "There are three things that'll put a good man down: Losin' a good woman, eatin' bad possum, or eatin' good possum."" - Holden McGroin

(and I still say he wasn't trying to spell possum!)

Offline miko2d

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« Reply #38 on: October 24, 2003, 01:48:09 PM »
Sixpence: I remember how I felt after 9/11 , that sinking feeling and pit in my stomache. I wouldn't say I was desparate, but I felt pretty low. I could only imagine the feeling if it was an empire conquering the pacific heading for my backyard.

I guess it's hard to imagine being as ignorant of those things as people were at that time - not a scorn, mind you, so that may interfere with my picture of how they should have reacted.

 The Japanese empire intitated the conquest out of desperation, rather than face a total economic ruin.

 You see - invading and annexing underdeveloped countries and colinising them was considered acceptable in those times. All countries did it, inclooding the US (Philippines).
 It was also considered admissible that if an empire got too week to hold it's overseas posessions, another one could attack it under some pretect and take them away (again US-Spanish war 1898).

 Japain was pretty muct the only country that did not colonise but conducted isolationist policy - having successfully eliminated modern araments and firearms - untill forced to open it's ports by US warships (Perry 1854?).

 So Japan found that all the countries right next to it were already colonised by Brits, French, etc. from half a world away. They did take a piece from Russia in 1904. Anyway, that was not a problem because Japan - poor in natural resources - rapidly developed industry and traded for what resources it needed.

 Unfortunately, after the WWI the Brits did not lower taxes and free the trade back to the pre-war conditions. British empire abandoned it's free-trade policy and reverted towards mercantilism.
 One of the results was promotion of exports and inhibition of imports with high tariffs. What's more - brits forbade free trade with their colonies, only allowing it among the colonies and with the mainland.
 Other countries followed the suit - Smoot-Hawley act, etc.

 As a result Japan was prevented from selling it's goods to the neighbouring countries like India, Malaysia, etc.

 It was encouraged to buy stuff that it needed but without exports it had no money to pay for those imports! It's industry was facing death and ruin from lack of oil, ore, rubber and other stuff that was produced right next to them by the local oriental people who seemed willing to trade with Japan rather than buy expensive stuff delivered all the way from Britain.

 As I said, grabbing colonies was considered acceptable bacause all civilised countries did it, so Japan decided to take them away from Brits and French. In return, US embargoed the sales of resources to Japan - especially the oil, well knowing that the war or disasterous ruination were the only options left to it.

 I mean, sure - they were evil invaders and colonisers, but by the standards of the time no worse than europeans/americans - untill they started racking up the body count. At least they were as willing to die as to kill.

 I can see how americans could have misapprehension of Japan as some kind of a powerhouse, rather than a dying country. Of course if they were given 10-15 years to get their colonies running in the co-prosperity sphere, we might have had a different kind of Japan. At the same time if brits and US kept the free trade and better yet, gave freedom to colonies, there would never have been any problem with Japan. After all Japanese are great imitators of the western ways.

 miko
« Last Edit: October 24, 2003, 01:59:30 PM by miko2d »

Offline miko2d

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« Reply #39 on: October 24, 2003, 01:57:37 PM »
muckmaw: Those battleships were obsolete?

 Not "those battleships" - the concept of an ultra-expensive artullery-armed battleship was obsolete with the appearance of naval aviation.

 IIRC, HMS Hood was the only battleship blown in a ship-to-ship duel with Bismark - without even scoring a hit. (Of course it died through ineptitude of it's command, that chose to fight at the long range - where any shell would land on top of the lightly-armored deck and pierce it all the way to the bottom,  rather than close in under smoke screen to within the distance where heavy side armor would come into play and the british gunnery were not as much of a handicap.)

 The rest were sunk by the land-based or naval aviation.

 The battleships were as obsolete for real combat (still great for bombardment of the third-world peasants) as the aircraft carriers got obsolete in the age of cheap capable AS missiles (still great for bombardment of the third-world peasants).

 :) Hmm.. Would anyone bite?

 miko

Offline Gadfly

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« Reply #40 on: October 24, 2003, 02:06:13 PM »
Coulda-Woulda-Shoulda-They lost.

Offline muckmaw

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« Reply #41 on: October 24, 2003, 02:11:01 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by miko2d
muckmaw: Those battleships were obsolete?

 Not "those battleships" - the concept of an ultra-expensive artullery-armed battleship was obsolete with the appearance of naval aviation.

 IIRC, HMS Hood was the only battleship blown in a ship-to-ship duel with Bismark - without even scoring a hit. (Of course it died through ineptitude of it's command, that chose to fight at the long range - where any shell would land on top of the lightly-armored deck and pierce it all the way to the bottom,  rather than close in under smoke screen to within the distance where heavy side armor would come into play and the british gunnery were not as much of a handicap.)

 The rest were sunk by the land-based or naval aviation.

 The battleships were as obsolete for real combat (still great for bombardment of the third-world peasants) as the aircraft carriers got obsolete in the age of cheap capable AS missiles (still great for bombardment of the third-world peasants).

 :) Hmm.. Would anyone bite?

 miko


Question: No one knew Battleships were obsolete at the time, least of all the american administration. Why would they be sacrificed?

Even the Japanese believed a battle of the seas would be decided by battleships.

According to my reading, there was no conspiracy to sacrifice men and material to bring the US into the war.

Offline Sixpence

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« Reply #42 on: October 24, 2003, 02:42:39 PM »
Oh, you are quite right. If Japan had done some things different, like consolidating their gains of non U.S. colonies, things might have been different. Attacking the U.S. was not a good move, IMO. That is why some believe that japan was baited into attacking.

Could Japan have attacked non U.S. colonies and consolidated their gains? Dunno, you would know the economics of that more than me. But it seems the attack on pearl played right into our hands.
"My grandaddy always told me, "There are three things that'll put a good man down: Losin' a good woman, eatin' bad possum, or eatin' good possum."" - Holden McGroin

(and I still say he wasn't trying to spell possum!)

Offline miko2d

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« Reply #43 on: October 24, 2003, 02:47:32 PM »
You quoted my note before the reply as if I was claiming teh conspiracy. I have no opinion for or against the "bait" hypothesis. Japan was provoked - most certainly. The attack was expected? Could be. Conspiracy to use the pacific fleet as bait? I do not know and do not really care.
 There is a good book about it but I have a few shelves of books I need to read first.

 Not only didn't US military believe that battleships were obsolete, there was a lot of resistance to the development of the naval aviation and aviation in general. At least if Doolittle and Mitchel are to be trusted.

 Nobody wanted to believe that a measly plane could sink a big ship with a bomb - even despite demonstrations in the1920s. Especially considering that in those times it took 5-8 years to build a battleship and we know how fast the aviation developed in 5-8 years.

 miko

Offline miko2d

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« Reply #44 on: October 24, 2003, 02:58:00 PM »
Sixpence: Oh, you are quite right. If Japan had done some things different, like consolidating their gains of non U.S. colonies, things might have been different. Attacking the U.S. was not a good move, IMO.

 Imagine that now that we are in posession of Iraq, we lost all the import of oil, ores, lumber, etc. How long do you think would it be before we could "consolidate" our gains?

Could Japan have attacked non U.S. colonies and consolidated their gains? Dunno, you would know the economics of that more than me.

 Nobody knows for sure whether they were facing imminent ruin, industrial reakdown and starvation, but they surely had good reasons to believe so.

 Even if they could hold on, would US have let Japan consolidate their gains and grow strong? I do not believe so and neither should have they.

miko