Author Topic: Jet Sim (Read 2221 times)

artik · « **Reply #30 on:** October 29, 2003, 12:41:37 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Vermillion
If you keep missile combat prior to 1975, it should be pretty interesting. Missiles were just not very good till the mid 70's, and the hit rates during Vietnam (65-73) were around %10 for both IR and radar guided of all types in combat.

Plus if you have realistic launch restrictions, such as G limits (many had a 2 G launch limit) and time from button press to actual launch (several full seconds depending on aircraft/missile), and or missile warm up/spin up times, it could be very interesting I think.

However, HTC has stated many times that they do not plan to branch out to other air combat era's.

Agree with you that misseles were not really good... but they had some important issues:
1st. IR guieded missiles could shoot from rear space only, they could not follow hard manuvering target - they were usefull to open combat - when enemy do not see you, or to shoot to disengaging enemy fo force them make brake manuvers and.... catch him with gun.
2nd. Radar guiede missiles was even more worst to get hard manuvering target but.... they could be shutten from every angle - HO too.

3rd the persantage was more then 10%.

In 1973 Yom Kippur War it was following:

Best missile was Rafael - Shafrir 2 missile it had 51% (176 shoots 89 kills) kill/shoot raito.

Second missile that had 40% ( 132 shoots 52.5 kills) raito was Sidewinder AiM-9G/D

Sparrow AiM-7E had 12 shoots and 3 lills 25%

The sucsses of Shafrir 2 missile was a result not only of good missile design but alse of good knowlage of its parameters and best shoot condition. Most of IAF pilots was well trained in using this missile.

Reschke · « **Reply #31 on:** October 29, 2003, 12:54:58 PM »

Artik,

The only real factor with the Israeli Air Force is that its pilots are trained to a razor edge all the time unlike the other air forces in the region. Also the IAF has outstanding equipment compared to what their opponents have always had also. So it really comes down to the man in the machine regardless of what others say. You can have all the bells and whistles but if you don't know how to use them they really don't do you any good.

artik · « **Reply #32 on:** October 29, 2003, 02:29:20 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Reschke
Artik,

The only real factor with the Israeli Air Force is that its pilots are trained to a razor edge all the time unlike the other air forces in the region. Also the IAF has outstanding equipment compared to what their opponents have always had also. So it really comes down to the man in the machine regardless of what others say. You can have all the bells and whistles but if you don't know how to use them they really don't do you any good.

Thanks I know IAF is one of the best trained Air Force in the World, but...
Equipment most of the time it was equal to Arabian Air Forces.
1967 6 day war MiG21 vs Mirage III they are very similar planes. Only one advantage IAF pilots had over nieborhoods was that they know all perfomances and good and bad sides of MiG 21 in this war....

1973 IAF has F4E and Nesher (IAI Mirage III) vs MiG21s. F-4E suprioir but Syrian and Egyptian AF has extreemly good Anti Aircraft ground based systems like SAM2, SAM3, SAM6, SAM7-Strela and radar guided ground guns... all them work in coaperation all fill up all possible ranges - Low, Medium and High altitude. This battarey extreemy hard to be destroyed and very mobile. IAF get most of it looses because of this SAMs. So they wasn't equipment so bad...

1982 yes IAF has F-15, F-16, F-4E modern air to ground smart weapon, vs MiG-25, MiG23 and MiG21.... The result was 0 lost on aircrafts in combats.

But anyway the people make all the difference.

MC_Honky · « **Reply #33 on:** October 29, 2003, 02:40:09 PM »

Hey F4i,

If strike fighters ever gets its second patch it will have a strong online presence. Eye candy is as good as Lock -on or better.

F4i · « **Reply #34 on:** October 29, 2003, 04:55:08 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by MC_Honky
Hey F4i,

If strike fighters ever gets its second patch it will have a strong online presence. Eye candy is as good as Lock -on or better.

Thanks, Honky.

I've never liked stand-alone games that *try* to go online. It just never works for me. ( (shrugging shoulders) )

TBolt

Vermillion · « **Reply #35 on:** October 30, 2003, 07:33:53 AM »

Rechske, get ahold of me if your still interested in our little project. I'm trying to get things going again

Artik, I can get the exact numbers later at home, but the number I quoted for Vietnam is correct within a couple of percentage points. Yes, the hit rates got better towards the later parts of 72, and into early 73, but I quoted the overall average of the war. So I'm not surprised that the 73 Arab-Israeli conflict had statistics that you quoted. The experiences in Vietnam had taught the missile producers quite a bit about reliability, and these lessons were applied by the Israeli's.

Another rough number/statistic that I remember from my reading. During the 67 Arab-Israeli war, the percentage of guns kills were roughly 75% and missiles were 25%. Five years later in the 73 conflict, the numbers had flip flop'd and were 25% guns and 75% missiles. Thats why I say that to keep jet combat interesting, or at least interesting to this crowd who likes traditional "dogfighting", you would need to keep it prior to 1975 or so.

A good books on this era, in regards to tactics, weapons, and the aircraft is :

Clashes: Air Combat over North Vietnam 1965-1972

This book is excellent, and where I got the missile statistics from.

gofaster · « **Reply #36 on:** October 30, 2003, 08:51:13 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Vermillion
A good books on this era, in regards to tactics, weapons, and the aircraft is :

Clashes: Air Combat over North Vietnam 1965-1972

This book is excellent, and where I got the missile statistics from.

I concur. That's an excellent book about the Vietnam air war. Lots of good stuff there; some good analysis, relevant first-person "I was there" stories, background info to "set the stage"... yeah, if you only have 1 book on the Vietnam air war, this is the one to have.

artik · « **Reply #37 on:** October 30, 2003, 01:38:32 PM »

Vermillion

I didn't come to tell you was wrong I just wanted to show some statistics I can get to all who read the forum, I've get very interesting document from IAF site about Shafrir II developmnet with interesting descriptions of all feachers of this missile and comperison with others. Unfortunatly this document in Hebrew unless I've given you the link. I just wanted to add some more information about missiles not telling they was so good or so bad. Just pure information I get.

Vermillion · « **Reply #38 on:** November 04, 2003, 11:42:00 AM »

Artik, no offense taken

I was just trying to explain where I had read the information.

I would love to see any documents like that if they were in English. Unfortunately, I am a poor dumb American who can only speak/read one language

Except for a few grade school phrases of Spanish.

I do 3D modeling as a Hobby, and one of my first projects was an Israeli Mirage IIIc. Interesting aircraft.

Vermillion · « **Reply #39 on:** November 04, 2003, 12:01:10 PM »

Some statistics on Missile effectiveness, from the book "Clashes: Air Combat over North Vietnam 1965-1972"

During Rolling Thunder:

AIM 7 (D & E) Sparrow Results (340 total): Hits 8% (27), Misses 29% (99), and Failures 63% (214).

AIM 9B Sidewinder Results (187 total): Hits 15% (29), Misses 28% (53), and Failures 56% (105).

AIM 9D Sidewinder Results (99 total): Hits 19% (18), Other 81% (81)

AIM 4D Falcon Results (44 total): Hits 9% (4), Other 91% (40)

During Linebacker :

AIM 7 (E2) Sparrow Results (281 total): Hits 12% (34), Misses 22%, and Failures 66%.

AIM 9J Sidewinder Results (31 total): Hits 13% (4), Misses 13% (4), and Failures 74% (23).

AIM 9G Sidewinder Results (50 total): Hits 46% (23), Other 54% (27)

Overall:

AIM 7 Sparrow Results (612 total): Hits 9% (56), Misses 25% (152), and Failures 66% (404).

AIM 9 Sidewinder Results (454 total): Hits 18% (81), Misses 35% (160), and Failures 47% (213).

Note: Take out the very late war success of the Navy's AIM-9G (46%) and the overall Sidewinder success rate is much lower.

Reschke · « **Reply #40 on:** November 04, 2003, 12:23:50 PM »

Yep Verm; I will do that. I finally got the time to put into the skins again since all my coaching duties are over for a while. Plus I am breaking down and buying a new Wacom tablet sometime before Christmas. I am not springing for the big dollar tablets.

Deth7 · « **Reply #41 on:** November 08, 2003, 10:14:19 AM »

Korea Korea Korea Korea
Guns Guns Guns Guns Guns
Mig-15 F-86 Mig-15 F-86 Mig-15 F-86

Nefarious · « **Reply #42 on:** November 08, 2003, 07:46:17 PM »

Vermillion if you need a hand on anything...Textures, Modeling, Animation. I graduated from the Art Institute of Pittsburgh in June and am eager to get started anywhere I can.

Whymanbuster420@yahoo.com

Vermillion · « **Reply #43 on:** November 10, 2003, 07:05:59 PM »

Nefarious, I gotta run right now, but I'll write you an email tomorrow.

Nefarious · « **Reply #44 on:** November 10, 2003, 10:47:20 PM »

Cool.