General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: CptTrips on January 01, 2023, 09:08:19 AM
Title: Are We In A Sim Gaming Dark Age?
Post by: CptTrips on January 01, 2023, 09:08:19 AM
An interesting view.
Surprisingly AH actually gets a brief mention, but I think he thinks it has already closed down. :)
Title: Re: Are We In A Sim Gaming Dark Age?
Post by: oboe on January 01, 2023, 11:25:40 AM
Thanks for this post. I was all ready to disagree with the guy based on all the new content Great Battles and DCS have been releasing, Flight Simulator storming back, and the number of players populating War Thunder's servers - but after watching I think he may be correct. I dabbled in BMS before discovering DCS; maybe when VR capability is added I should give it a look again.
I agree with the notion of being too dependent on Eastern European programming talent, and that War Thunder seems to have its own gravity, keeping players trapped. I was surprised and pleased to see him acknowledge Aces High as one of the early sims from the Golden Age - without a mention for Warbirds or Air Warrior.
Can you imagine Aces High with a dynamic campaign with integrated ground and air AI units in all of the countries? While new aircraft may no longer be in reach for Aces High, I think Hitech could still be capable of creating 3-sided AI-augmented dynamic campaigns within the MA, and a change like this might solve both the player-caused side imbalances and the stagnation or map rolling that so many players are tired of.
Who knows, a change like this might also get AH noticed again in the wider flight sim community.
Tahnks again for posting - hope to see some more discussion here...
Title: Re: Are We In A Sim Gaming Dark Age?
Post by: Nefarious on January 01, 2023, 11:30:14 AM
this was an interesting video indeed.
Here's my comment:
Quote
41 going on 42 - and I fly 4 flight sim games - Still lying Aces High near weekly since 2000 in Friday Squad Ops, next up it's IL2 BOX, whether Combat Box, FlugPark, Finnish Virtual... then it's Strike Fighters 2 - followed by DCS single player. I don't fly DCS online, only offline kind of like MSFS2000. I agree with your points in this video - I have never flown War Thunder, but I have been seeing lots of videos and shorts and it's honestly quite tempting.
IL2 is frustrating because of the settings in Multiplayer Servers. I can deal with no icons, but it would be helpful to have some Friendly Killshooter. The offline campaign and scripted campaigns are ok, but have their flaws. DCS is the SIM-SIM that you learn and study and reminds of the old MSFS where you learn and fly. Strike Fighters offers all the aircraft I like and I can be fighting in less than 2 minutes with hordes of MiGs and all modded out offers some OK graphics - like Falcon 4.0. Wish it Thirdwire would patch it up for VR and online play.
Great video and offers a reasonable explanation of todays sim market.
Title: Re: Are We In A Sim Gaming Dark Age?
Post by: CptTrips on January 02, 2023, 10:24:13 AM
Title: Re: Are We In A Sim Gaming Dark Age?
Post by: perdue3 on January 02, 2023, 10:26:54 AM
I basically only fly Flugpark these days just because TAW is shut down. Wings of Liberty was good for a time.
Title: Re: Are We In A Sim Gaming Dark Age?
Post by: nrshida on January 02, 2023, 12:16:58 PM
Very good points I think. Wonder if we will have a renaissance? I had high hopes for IL2-1946 with all of the post-war what-ifs but I never could install it.
Title: Re: Are We In A Sim Gaming Dark Age?
Post by: AKIron on January 02, 2023, 12:56:35 PM
BMS has done a lot to keep a 25 year old sim alive but the terrain made from repetitive tiles has long been too hard for me to ignore. Kills the immersion.
Title: Re: Are We In A Sim Gaming Dark Age?
Post by: DmonSlyr on January 02, 2023, 02:42:41 PM
I thought his best point was about developers not being able to enhance games or add structure fast enough before the player base gets tired of it. It does all depend on the "bones" of the game. Halo Infinite has been a good example of that with their problems. I was a bit disappointed he did not talk about Aces High more though. Personally, I don't think that guy spent much time or any in Aces High to really understand it. He talked about BMS, DCS, Il2 and WT but not AH... Even though AH provides many of the things he said most other games did not. AH has FSO, Combat Challenge, Scenarios, King of the Hill, and other events and literally no one ever mentions this or talks about it. It saddens me really. A hidden gem. These battles are freaking intense! Hardly any real comments never discuss the wonders of these events. Not only that but the MA is a full time war game on an open map where just about anything goes. He mentioned that about BMS, which was Co-op basically, but not about AH which is all online and takes a lot of skill and practice to learn SA and all of the planes.
The things about Flight Simulators is that they take time and patience to learn. It's all about how much you want to learn and how quickly you want to learn it. I am going through this with DCS. Its very dynamic to me and I am taking my time to practice and learn the game. With AH, I wanted to learn Air combat more than anything 17 years ago, so I did everything I could do be the best and it still took me 2 years to be sorta good...I played it Intensely because air combat was the coolest thing to me. I still play it because of the challenge and warlike style of the game. The MA was so much harder than the H2H. I thought H2H was so great for this game to feed young players. I may have never been around if not for being able to play H2H for free with other players to gain quick air combat experience. I wasn't even close ready for the MA. Many "gamers", especially young gamers want quick action. Flight simulators do not provide quick action really... War Thunder did that with the CoD model and it worked of course. Now it sucks in players who are young and really aren't in the phase of "learning air combat". It's also "free" for them to play that way. Most gamers however want to play what all of their friends are playing so they can sit around the table and talk about it and play together. Flight Sims to me have always been a "loner" type gameplay. Ie, my friends never got into it and thought it was boring to watch me play having to fly 5 minutes to a field first. I had one friend play for a bit back in 2015 when H2H was free and even he wasn't passionate about it. Thing is, the subscription model also prevents young players from playing longer. They might want to try the game again a few months later after they downloaded it but find out they have to pay $15 for one month just to see the MA and there is no where else to go to fight people and learn the game with others in a quick way. There are a LOT of games out there you can buy an entire game for $15. So it just seems like it's sorta expensive if you have no clue what the heck is going on. I'd still love to see a commercial again on TV.
Flight simmers are very special people. There just aren't that many of us out there and now there are many games competing for those players. Hell there is a shortage of pilots in the real world. I know of only one person in my whole highschool who became a pilot. Sims normally takes an older crowd because they have the time and patience to learn a more intricate skill of "sorta closely like the real thing" which is always harder than hopping into already moving planes and instantly trying to shoot down other online players. Young players just dont have the patience, don't have the money, or aren't interested in flying to begin with. That leaves a small market with a lot of competition out there.
Title: Re: Are We In A Sim Gaming Dark Age?
Post by: -gg- on January 02, 2023, 03:08:56 PM
For me, online games have to be multiplayer - and not just 10 players or so. I think AH has a great balance between a good flight model and graphics/realism. Sure, the graphics could be better but for me graphics are not the main attraction to most games. What attracts me is the people and the interaction.
DCS, for me, would be very boring. I don't have an interest in having to learn every switch and lever in a plane and then just basically fly around sight seeing. I think the graphics are fantastic. The SIM is probably very accurate and realistic. It just doesn't interest me.
My favorite thing to do in AH is just fighting other planes and dogfighting. I really enjoy the WWI arena when I pop in there.
Title: Re: Are We In A Sim Gaming Dark Age?
Post by: Nefarious on January 02, 2023, 04:09:48 PM
One FSO frame has anywhere from 20 to 40 more pilots than the most populated servers in IL2BOX.
I think it offers the best Air Combat outside of AH.
It certainly does. My issue is the amount of time you really need to dedicate to it to be competitive, not flying, but spotting and tracking. Because I've not dedicated copious amounts of time, I am simply average if not below on the WWII side. The WWI side, I am very confident.
Title: Re: Are We In A Sim Gaming Dark Age?
Post by: AKIron on January 03, 2023, 11:48:53 AM
Many kids who grew up during or relatively soon after WWII had a natural interest in that war. Later generations naturally less so. Technology advanced and so did the interest in "modern" jets. That interest has faded. Not for some but among large numbers. The amount of interest and people willing to pay to satisfy it of course drives the market.
Title: Re: Are We In A Sim Gaming Dark Age?
Post by: CptTrips on January 03, 2023, 03:17:48 PM
Many kids who grew up during or relatively soon after WWII had a natural interest in that war. Later generations naturally less so.
Maybe. I understand the reasoning. That argument get trotted out around here a lot to excuse AH's the lack of appeal to the current market. Frankly though, it strikes me as a weak argument.
IL2 franchise has sold something like 10 million copies. They still sell millions every iteration.
War Thunder has a large percentage of WWII aircraft and is quite successful.
In non-flight genre you have popular games like WWII based Post Scriptum, Call of Duty: WWII, Hell Let Loose, etc. BF5 was one of the most anticipated releases in years despite being WWII. (Yeah,EA flubbed it, but that wasn’t because of lack of interest in the WWII subject matter.) Not flight sims, but indication that merely a WWII subject matter is not a deal breaker for the current market.
If WWII based IL2 Great Battles release can still sell 3 million units, then obviously the WWII subject matter is probably not the obstacle that many like to think it is. If AH could convert 1/1000th as many, it’s troubles would be over and it would have a new lease on life. Whatever the core fundamental problem is (we all have our opinions) it seems unlikely that the WWII subject matter is the main friction point.
I still suspect a WWII flight sim with the proper graphics, physics and damage modeling, user UI experience, play style and balance, activity cadence, and monetization model, could find buyers.
Sure, that is plenty to have to over come (probably too much at this point). I understand the emotional comfort of being able to say, “it’s not the games fault. It’s just that no one is interested in WWII anymore.” If trying to fix the real problems is no longer feasible, I supposed that balm has a certain palliative value.
BTW, good to see you still kicking around and popping your head up. About a million years ago, in a different reincarnation, I flew as AKWabbit.
:salute
Title: Re: Are We In A Sim Gaming Dark Age?
Post by: CptTrips on January 03, 2023, 03:40:36 PM
BTW, these guys are at least still trying. ;)
Maybe that's how bases in AH should have to be captured. :cool:
I like the concept of WWIIOL but have never been impressed with their execution. But they haven't given up.
I would have loved to have seen Cornered Rats and HTC merge in the early days and have produced WWIIOL model with HTC quality.
Tour of Duty looked promising, but alas....
Title: Re: Are We In A Sim Gaming Dark Age?
Post by: DmonSlyr on January 03, 2023, 04:27:50 PM
Maybe. I understand the reasoning. That argument get trotted out around here a lot to excuse AH's the lack of appeal to the current market. Frankly though, it strikes me as a weak argument.
IL2 franchise has sold something like 10 million copies. They still sell millions every iteration.
War Thunder has a large percentage of WWII aircraft and is quite successful.
In non-flight genre you have popular games like WWII based Post Scriptum, Call of Duty: WWII, Hell Let Loose, etc. BF5 was one of the most anticipated releases in years despite being WWII. (Yeah,EA flubbed it, but that wasn’t because of lack of interest in the WWII subject matter.) Not flight sims, but indication that merely a WWII subject matter is not a deal breaker for the current market.
If WWII based IL2 Great Battles release can still sell 3 million units, then obviously the WWII subject matter is probably not the obstacle that many like to think it is. If AH could convert 1/1000th as many, it’s troubles would be over and it would have a new lease on life. Whatever the core fundamental problem is (we all have our opinions) it seems unlikely that the WWII subject matter is the main friction point.
I still suspect a WWII flight sim with the proper graphics, physics and damage modeling, user UI experience, play style and balance, activity cadence, and monetization model, could find buyers.
Sure, that is plenty to have to over come (probably too much at this point). I understand the emotional comfort of being able to say, “it’s not the games fault. It’s just that no one is interested in WWII anymore.” If trying to fix the real problems is no longer feasible, I supposed that balm has a certain palliative value.
BTW, good to see you still kicking around and popping your head up. About a million years ago, in a different reincarnation, I flew as AKWabbit.
:salute
How many do you think they would sell if it was subscription based like AH?
Title: Re: Are We In A Sim Gaming Dark Age?
Post by: CptTrips on January 03, 2023, 04:59:42 PM
How many do you think they would sell if it was subscription based like AH?
Isn't War Thunder essentially subscription for the premium level? I think they have something like 70 million registered users. Not sure how many of those eventually converted to paid, but it doesn't appear they are having the same cash problems as HTC.
I'm kinda surprised they do that good. Subscriptions are a HARD sale now days. I think the reason they can pull it off is that they have a broad on-ramp to the game with the F2P planes. That lets new players play as long as they want to for free. In the MAIN game, not some empty un-used side arena.
I think that's really smart. Every day they come back to fly their free plane or grind for the next one is another day you might finally convince them to convert. They don't just slam the door in a potential customers face at the two week mark. Every day you extend direct contact with a potential customer is another day you might can close your sale. A F2P plane-set keeps them coming back. They work their way up. They learn. They meet players and form friends and enemies...connections. Every day the advantage of a premium membership is dangled in front of them. But no ultimatums. Even if they never convert, they are still targets and activity so the servers don't look like ghost towns with tumble weeds bouncing across empty runways.
Landing a subscription customer now days is hard. Think of it like landing a 5lb bass on 2lb test. It's be nice to just yank that hog straight into the boat with one jerk. But that probably won't work. The important things is continually get them closer, but never let that line snap. Even if you have to give them a little more line temporarily. As long as that line hasn't snapped, you can keep working them in close enough to net! ;)
YEah, I know. That's not how they did things back in Air Warrior! It's not 1988 anymore.
Title: Re: Are We In A Sim Gaming Dark Age?
Post by: DmonSlyr on January 03, 2023, 06:51:55 PM
Isn't War Thunder essentially subscription for the premium level? I think they have something like 70 million registered users. Not sure how many of those eventually converted to paid, but it doesn't appear they are having the same cash problems as HTC.
I'm kinda surprised they do that good. Subscriptions are a HARD sale now days. I think the reason they can pull it off is that they have a broad on-ramp to the game with the F2P planes. That lets new players play as long as they want to for free. In the MAIN game, not some empty un-used side arena.
I think that's really smart. Every day they come back to fly their free plane or grind for the next one is another day you might finally convince them to convert. They don't just slam the door in a potential customers face at the two week mark. Every day you extend direct contact with a potential customer is another day you might can close your sale. A F2P plane-set keeps them coming back. They work their way up. They learn. They meet players and form friends and enemies...connections. Every day the advantage of a premium membership is dangled in front of them. But no ultimatums. Even if they never convert, they are still targets and activity so the servers don't look like ghost towns with tumble weeds bouncing across empty runways.
Landing a subscription customer now days is hard. Think of it like landing a 5lb bass on 2lb test. It's be nice to just yank that hog straight into the boat with one jerk. But that probably won't work. The important things is continually get them closer, but never let that line snap. Even if you have to give them a little more line temporarily. As long as that line hasn't snapped, you can keep working them in close enough to net! ;)
YEah, I know. That's not how they did things back in Air Warrior! It's not 1988 anymore.
Yup, I made both of those points about H2H and subscription among others in my first post in the thread. War Thunder has a bigger apparatus behind it with way more money. It's pretty much easy mode CoD style which is why it's so successful. The thing is, the more a game is a "simulator" the less people play because it's not easy mode. The majority of gamers are kids who want free quick easy mode action. I had wish HTC brought back H2H rather than make the Pacific game. That would have kept players in AH and provided a "FTP." Game mode. We have the custom game mode thing now, but it just doesn't feel the same.
Title: Re: Are We In A Sim Gaming Dark Age?
Post by: AKIron on January 03, 2023, 06:52:29 PM
I wondered if you were still around Wabbit. Still have your astronomical observatory?
Title: Re: Are We In A Sim Gaming Dark Age?
Post by: CptTrips on January 03, 2023, 06:54:23 PM
I wondered if you were still around Wabbit. Still have your astronomical observatory?
Yep. It hasn't gotten much use last couple of years as some scope repairs were needed. It's all fixed now and I hope to get some photography done this year.
:salute
Title: Re: Are We In A Sim Gaming Dark Age?
Post by: AKIron on January 03, 2023, 06:59:40 PM
Cool Beans. :aok
Title: Re: Are We In A Sim Gaming Dark Age?
Post by: CptTrips on January 03, 2023, 08:01:17 PM
The thing is, the more a game is a "simulator" the less people play because it's not easy mode. The majority of gamers are kids who want free quick easy mode action. I had wish HTC brought back H2H rather than make the Pacific game. That would have kept players in AH and provided a "FTP." Game mode. We have the custom game mode thing now, but it just doesn't feel the same.
Well ya know, IMHO, War Thunder players are your best target audience to convert to AH. AH is a big step up, but not full-on, radiator-flap-twiddling study sim.
I find it hard to imagine converting IL2 or DCS pilots abandoning their sims to come here. They will see their sim as superior (whether or not others here will agree). They don't want to pay a subscription. Especially if it doesn't appear to have any on-going development active. They'll likely think the whole look and feel, GUI, in-game, will seem clunky and old style to them.
The things they might admire, like the organized scenarios and events, could just be transplanted to another platform (if they haven't already. Does Il2 and DCS have organized events and scenarios?). After all, that tradition was simply transplanted from AW -> WB -> AH. It's people-based not platform restricted. They'd probably try and enhance their own sim rather than migrate to one they feel is behind the tech curve or even relegated to long-term-maintenance effort only.
War Thunder players might see it as stepping up to a more serious sim but they are going to be unimpressed with the whole UI\initial impression. Also the monetization model is probably alien to them coming from WT. Before they've even made it to the runway they get informed that it's not REALLY a F2P. At least not in the commonly used meaning of the term they were expecting. They will not impressed with the twisted logic on why it still qualifies for that description because after the trial you can still get into some empty, unused arenas.
"But they don’t even stay 15 minutes! What good would a longer trial or F2P do?” I can hear the argument already. Here is what I imagining is happening:
---------------------------------------------------------- * I hear about this flight sim on Steam. F2P. Cool. I’ll try it and see if I like it better than WT.
* Start up...Oh. It’s not F2P exactly. I have a two week trial then I have to pay for a subscription. What B.S. That was definitely false advertising. F2P means there are starter planes I can fly for free like WT. Hmmm.
* This GUI. WTF. It looks like a unix administrator tools dialog. I’m sure it is capable, but doesn’t exactly set the mood and get my juices flow. And the menu layout is wack.
* This Fluffing loud music loop just goes on and on. How can I turn it off? You might find out that you have to spawn into a map to get to the menu choice to turn off the music, not that you hear in the map, but back in the UI you came from. Can’t get to that while in the UI you were hearing it in? Make it stop! For the love of Cod! Make it STOP!
*Offfffff this UI is confusing. I might eventually figure out what to click on to end up an a runway.
*Well the graphics in game are OK. Not fantastic, but not bad exactly. WT is better.
* This clipboard UI is annoying. It is probably useful in flight for quick stuff, but why is it the whole UI for the game. Some better traditional screens would be better at startup and configuration. Leave the clipboard in the plane.
* OK. Welp, I’m done. I could probably figure out how to get this configure and get off the ground, but I have already decided it’s a hard no. - Don’t like the UI. - Graphics look dated. - I sure as heck am not paying a subscription every month. - Even if I was, I feel a bait and switch was attempted so I start off with a really sour taste and nothing I’ve seen so far is compelling enough to dispel that. * Forget it. Not worth even wasting an hour. I already am not interested just from what I’ve seen so far. No point in wasting more time. * AltF4. * Uninstall. * Move on the next in the stack of top tier games competing for my attention. ----------------------------------------------------------------
Title: Re: Are We In A Sim Gaming Dark Age?
Post by: AKIron on January 03, 2023, 08:14:46 PM
For 40 years I've tried on and off to interest my brother in combat "sims". He flew helicopters in the US Army and was one of the first 100 Apache pilots. Then he went on to the airlines as an ATP and retired a few years ago from American. No PC sim interested him until DCS. He likes their modeling of the AH-64D and bought an HP Reverb G2 for that. He is hooked.
Title: Re: Are We In A Sim Gaming Dark Age?
Post by: CptTrips on January 03, 2023, 08:27:55 PM
For 40 years I've tried on and off to interest my brother in combat "sims". He flew helicopters in the US Army and was one of the first 100 Apache pilots. Then he went on to the airlines as an ATP and retired a few years ago from American. No PC sim interested him until DCS. He likes their modeling of the AH-64D and bought an HP Reverb G2 for that. He is hooked.
I loved flying that. Got to get my game machine back working. Really need to upgrade, but I'm hoping the coming global recession will drop prices.
Those heli's in DCS have gotten me interesting in sims again. Not even PvP. Just spending hour putzing around trying to land on roof tops and making little missions for myself. So different from fixed wing that it rekindled my interest.
DCS has it's own problems too. Eventually ground AI needs to be vastly improved to really use the heli's to their fullest. Luckily I am still in the honeymoon period just having fun learning to fly.
:aok
Title: Re: Are We In A Sim Gaming Dark Age?
Post by: Eagler on January 04, 2023, 07:23:49 AM
I'll take AH music over german screaming in your ear in IL2 anyday
Eagler
Title: Re: Are We In A Sim Gaming Dark Age?
Post by: oboe on January 04, 2023, 08:12:30 AM
Well ya know, IMHO, War Thunder players are your best target audience to convert to AH. AH is a big step up, but not full-on, radiator-flap-twiddling study sim.
I find it hard to imagine converting IL2 or DCS pilots abandoning their sims to come here. They will see their sim as superior (whether or not others here will agree). They don't want to pay a subscription. Especially if it doesn't appear to have any on-going development active. They'll likely think the whole look and feel, GUI, in-game, will seem clunky and old style to them.
The things they might admire, like the organized scenarios and events, could just be transplanted to another platform (if they haven't already. Does Il2 and DCS have organized events and scenarios?). After all, that tradition was simply transplanted from AW -> WB -> AH. It's people-based not platform restricted. They'd probably try and enhance their own sim rather than migrate to one they feel is behind the tech curve or even relegated to long-term-maintenance effort only.
War Thunder players might see it as stepping up to a more serious sim but they are going to be unimpressed with the whole UI\initial impression. Also the monetization model is probably alien to them coming from WT. Before they've even made it to the runway they get informed that it's not REALLY a F2P. At least not in the commonly used meaning of the term they were expecting. They will not impressed with the twisted logic on why it still qualifies for that description because after the trial you can still get into some empty, unused arenas.
"But they don’t even stay 15 minutes! What good would a longer trial or F2P do?” I can hear the argument already. Here is what I imagining is happening:
---------------------------------------------------------- * I hear about this flight sim on Steam. F2P. Cool. I’ll try it and see if I like it better than WT.
* Start up...Oh. It’s not F2P exactly. I have a two week trial then I have to pay for a subscription. What B.S. That was definitely false advertising. F2P means there are starter planes I can fly for free like WT. Hmmm.
* This GUI. WTF. It looks like a unix administrator tools dialog. I’m sure it is capable, but doesn’t exactly set the mood and get my juices flow. And the menu layout is wack.
* This Fluffing loud music loop just goes on and on. How can I turn it off? You might find out that you have to spawn into a map to get to the menu choice to turn off the music, not that you hear in the map, but back in the UI you came from. Can’t get to that while in the UI you were hearing it in? Make it stop! For the love of Cod! Make it STOP!
*Offfffff this UI is confusing. I might eventually figure out what to click on to end up an a runway.
*Well the graphics in game are OK. Not fantastic, but not bad exactly. WT is better.
* This clipboard UI is annoying. It is probably useful in flight for quick stuff, but why is it the whole UI for the game. Some better traditional screens would be better at startup and configuration. Leave the clipboard in the plane.
* OK. Welp, I’m done. I could probably figure out how to get this configure and get off the ground, but I have already decided it’s a hard no. - Don’t like the UI. - Graphics look dated. - I sure as heck am not paying a subscription every month. - Even if I was, I feel a bait and switch was attempted so I start off with a really sour taste and nothing I’ve seen so far is compelling enough to dispel that. * Forget it. Not worth even wasting an hour. I already am not interested just from what I’ve seen so far. No point in wasting more time. * AltF4. * Uninstall. * Move on the next in the stack of top tier games competing for my attention. ----------------------------------------------------------------
I think you're probably right CptTrips, with especially regarding the F2P misrepresentation. What AH offers is a free trial period, not F2P.
The road map to solve this seems pretty clear; a limited plane/vehicle set available to players who play without the subscription charge. Major games subscription-based games like Eve Online and World of Warcraft moved to this model years ago and are successful with it.
I *think* it would help keep new players longer than 15 minutes; maybe even long enough to get them hooked on gameplay and the community. Aces High does a great job of making multiplayer feel like multiplayer. Some of the best times I've had in game are when I become involved with a small team trying to take or defend a base. In DCS or IL-2, even though its multiplayer, it just feels more like SP to me when I'm online.
Agree with you on the dated look of the UI and offloading some admin/graphic settings from the clipboard to initial panels, before you get into the game proper - it would just be more consistent with the way most other games work, and therefore be less confusing. The clipboard interface is still a pretty clever implementation though.
Title: Re: Are We In A Sim Gaming Dark Age?
Post by: Spikes on January 04, 2023, 08:21:19 AM
I think you're probably right CptTrips, with especially regarding the F2P misrepresentation. What AH offers is a free trial period, not F2P.
FWIW, HT has addressed in the past why it is listed as F2P, he had no choice.
Title: Re: Are We In A Sim Gaming Dark Age?
Post by: AKIron on January 04, 2023, 09:44:46 AM
I would imagine free to play has a lot of management overhead. It's easier to be disruptive and exploitative when free email accounts are all it takes to create multiple AH accounts. No credit card identifying you.
Title: Re: Are We In A Sim Gaming Dark Age?
Post by: TWCAxew on January 04, 2023, 09:53:40 AM
I think AH registers your MAC/ip address. I played at my mom's house and than moved for the holidays to my dads house when I was 15 and AH made me pay :bolt:
Title: Re: Are We In A Sim Gaming Dark Age?
Post by: AKIron on January 04, 2023, 09:55:45 AM
AH may have other ways to identify you too but all easily spoofed by virtually anyone these days.
Title: Re: Are We In A Sim Gaming Dark Age?
Post by: CptTrips on January 04, 2023, 10:12:56 AM
I would imagine free to play has a lot of management overhead. It's easier to be disruptive and exploitative when free email accounts are all it takes to create multiple AH accounts. No credit card identifying you.
War Thunder seems to survive the overhead somehow. They apparently find it advantageous enough to keep it as their basic model. The strategy seems to make them a lot of money.
I'm not saying it would be no effort to implement and manage. I am saying it might be the price to pay to eventually coax players into accepting a subscription nowadays.
I'd wager that most of the players paying them a premium subscription probably thought they would only ever play the free planes and never subscribe. WT said, OK, No problem. There is a free plane-set you can play forever without subscribing if that is what you prefer. You just bought some goodwill pretty cheaply. You provided you other paying players the most valuable thing they require; other flying players to shoot at, and you've maintained contact with a potential sale and preserved the opportunity to close the sale later.
You drop a frog into boiling water, he'll just jump out. You gently place that frog in tepid water and carefully raise the temp, with a little luck you might make frog soup. ;) The two week trial and then take it or leave it; pay up of F-off! is a lot like dropping the frog in boiling water.
It may or may not help enough at this point. But it is something HT could do with the resources he has. He can make code changes to the billing and accounting system to support it. He can do that without needing new art or modelling assets which he probably can't afford right now. It's probably the lowest hanging fruit that he himself can implement by himself.
:salute
Title: Re: Are We In A Sim Gaming Dark Age?
Post by: AKIron on January 04, 2023, 10:19:47 AM
I have only a brief experience with War Thunder but it seemed a good deal more arcadish than AH. Free to Play for AH might be successful. If not, it might be the end of it. Dunno.
Title: Re: Are We In A Sim Gaming Dark Age?
Post by: CptTrips on January 04, 2023, 10:31:22 AM
I have only a brief experience with War Thunder but it seemed a good deal more arcadish than AH. Free to Play for AH might be successful. If not, it might be the end of it. Dunno.
What's the next best option to try to alter the games population trajectory?
Title: Re: Are We In A Sim Gaming Dark Age?
Post by: AKIron on January 04, 2023, 10:40:48 AM
More people. :D
Of course I have no idea what Dale plans for the game. He may be tired of it and ready to let it fade.
Title: Re: Are We In A Sim Gaming Dark Age?
Post by: CptTrips on January 04, 2023, 10:41:21 AM
FWIW, HT has addressed in the past why it is listed as F2P, he had no choice.
I totally buy that.
And it's irrelevant.
The only thing that is relevant is how it effects conversion rate. At one time I had sat and read through every one of the 200ish reviews on Steam. The feeling of a bait and switch was by far the most commonly identified deal breaker in those reviews. Fair or not, the vast majority of potential sales were probably lost in that first 30 secs when they are hit with that dialog. You've started you sales pitch by essentially spitting in the players face. Fair or not, that is how the person you are trying to sell is perceiving it.
It may not have been a choice on how they had to list it, but it WAS a conscious choice to not implement a F2P plane set to align the product with the players assumptions and with how other games they've played handle it, and how they had to list it.
Title: Re: Are We In A Sim Gaming Dark Age?
Post by: Eagler on January 04, 2023, 10:51:22 AM
The only thing that is relevant is how it effects conversion rate. At one time I had sat and read through every one of the 200ish reviews on Steam. The feeling of a bait and switch was by far the most commonly identified deal breaker in those reviews. Fair or not, the vast majority of potential sales were probably lost in that first 30 secs when they are hit with that dialog. You've started you sales pitch by essentially spitting in the players face. Fair or not, that is how the person you are trying to sell is perceiving it.
It may not have been a choice on how they had to list it, but it WAS a conscious choice to not implement a F2P plane set to align the product with the players assumptions and with how other games they've played handle it, and how they had to list it.
That seems more like a Steam issue than anything. By technicality the game is F2P. You can download the game for free, create an account for free, and play most aspects for free (including a free trial) with no CC required. I'm sure HT does not want to have his game perceived in the way that Steam forced him to do, but I'm not sure it should be the burden of the game designer to change their game entirely so that it can confirm to what Steam considers F2P or not.
If HT were to ever do a F2P planeset, which he won't, so all of these posts are completely pointless, I'd say the best option is to have some middle of the road aircraft available and then a rotating set of 3 or 4 that rotates at a given time (weekly, monthly, etc). SMITE does this well and gives a refreshing experience with the ability for people to try out new stuff every so often.
Title: Re: Are We In A Sim Gaming Dark Age?
Post by: CptTrips on January 04, 2023, 11:13:02 AM
If HT were to ever do a F2P planeset, which he won't, so all of these posts are completely pointless
OK. That's his call. It may be that AH is feature complete and now just LTM (long-term-maintenance).
I can see no likely scenario to reverse the downtrend if no material changes are able to be considered. If that outcome is acceptable then yeah, don't bother considering any changes.
Seasonal fluctuations aside, the player population appears to decrease every year. The player base is hitting that demographic cohort where they are dying off at a much faster clip. That will only accelerate with time as the players are probably heavily weighted in the same age range. It doesn't appear there are many new younger players being added to replace them. If just managing that downward glide slope is the plan, then yeah, don't bother considering any changes.
Failing that I can't see much low hanging fruit that he can do himself without new art and modelling. Is there a better option to increase the number of players in the area that I am missing?
Vulcan? That could help, but it might be a necessary but not sufficient condition kind of thing. I think there are too many other friction points for that to make the difference by itself, but not that I am against it.
It may be like Iron said that he has made to decision to give up and let it fade.
Maybe advertising. Maybe they can set up tables at air shows and give out t-shirts to rando's walking by. :lipsrsealed:
Maybe there is some secret wonder weapon being worked on in the HTC Skunkworks that we don't know about that will total change everything and blow us all away. Maybe. We wouldn't know because HTC does a lot of things well, but communicating the long term development roadmap to the player base isn't one of their talents.
It may be like Iron said that he has made to decision to give up and let it fade. That is not an unreasonable decision for a 20 yo game. It's on hospice care now. It will never get better. It's as good as it will get, and only decline further from here over time until it is finally gone. If that is the case, the community should all probably just admit it openly and move on to acceptance stage of grief.
It's a pity. There is a core code base of simulation that has been worked on for decades that should be able to be monetized. It's a shame to just let it all bit rot.
Title: Re: Are We In A Sim Gaming Dark Age?
Post by: -gg- on January 04, 2023, 12:38:10 PM
It's pretty sad because this is a great game. I remember when air warrior went away and a bunch of players really wanted to buy the game and keep it going but whoever owned it wouldn't sell it. I mean even though that had crappy graphics even for its time toward the end, that was a really great community. That was a fun game with a really really good community.
I could see the same thing happening if this game went away. The people who love the game would be desperate to have it back. And then it would just be gone. Nothing else is like it that's out there.
Title: Re: Are We In A Sim Gaming Dark Age?
Post by: -gg- on January 04, 2023, 01:23:01 PM
I'm pretty good at website SO. (search optimization)
I just did a very quick search under Google for each of the following:
WWII flight simulator WWII game WWII fighter game Free WWII fighter game
Aces High is nowhere to be found on the first page of google results. I didn't bother looking past the first page.
For such a niche market, this is super easy to fix. For no cost other than adding relevant content to the main website. It's very simple to make any of those returns come in the top search results.
Google doesn't return results based on key words, they return results based on relevant content. So if HT had a website that had articles about any of those subject and used those phrases (or any other phrase he chose) , you could get results very easily. I've done it and it's not rocket science.
I would do it for free for HiTech.
Also, any videos posted to Youtube (or whatever) should have descriptions that include those phrases and work it into the description in such a way that it reads as information, not spam.
Title: Re: Are We In A Sim Gaming Dark Age?
Post by: -gg- on January 04, 2023, 01:48:49 PM
Here's the meta description for AH.
(https://ibb.co/3WswzBX)
https://ibb.co/3WswzBX
Aces High - Homehttps://www.hitechcreations.com Aces High takes the art and science of vintage WW1 and WW2 air combat and sets it in a high intensity online multiplayer environment. Hundreds of players ...
That's what people see if they directly search for Aces High specifically.
This should be much more specific and to the point. something like:
Aces High - Multiplayer WW1 and WW2 combat simulator game. Free to try! Air, Ground and Sea WWII combat game!
Title: Re: Are We In A Sim Gaming Dark Age?
Post by: CptTrips on January 04, 2023, 01:50:36 PM
You drop a frog into boiling water, he'll just jump out. You gently place that frog in tepid water and carefully raise the temp, with a little luck you might make frog soup.
Just fyi, that's an urban myth. As the water gets warm the frog will try to get out.
Title: Re: Are We In A Sim Gaming Dark Age?
Post by: CptTrips on January 04, 2023, 02:40:02 PM
Just fyi, that's an urban myth. As the water gets warm the frog will try to get out.
I'm not even going to ask how you proved that.
:rofl
Title: Re: Are We In A Sim Gaming Dark Age?
Post by: -gg- on January 04, 2023, 02:43:34 PM
AH is right in the sweet spot for fighter games, imo. Good flight and damage models and not overly complicated like a full sim would be. And not ghey like an arcade game.
The graphics do not need to be any better. I'd say maybe the UI would be a better thing to modernize, if anything. The real enjoyment comes from the game and the people, in my opinion.
Title: Re: Are We In A Sim Gaming Dark Age?
Post by: -gg- on January 04, 2023, 02:49:06 PM
Instead of a free plane set, what about a "ghost mode" in which anyone can fly or drive anything, only they are not seen by anyone else.
They can fly and see any paying customer, but not anyone else in "ghost mode"
They can shoot and register what would be hits on their end. So they can tell if they would have hit or shot anyone down.
No comms.
They could fully fly any plane or GV in the main arena, but no one can see them. Kind of like the old dogfight thing in Air Warrior
Title: Re: Are We In A Sim Gaming Dark Age?
Post by: Hajo on January 04, 2023, 03:20:23 PM
Some of you older combat flight Sims jerks as myself, remember before online gaming there were only flight based boxed Simulations/Games. Back in the early eighties Combat Sims like Their Finest Hour, BOB were disk based. We had to change disks (insert disk 2) to play. With old DOS systems like DOS 2.1 we could make a disk to alter the Auto.exe file to free up memory so we could REM lines and drop some files that we could free up memory to play the games,copy the altered file to disk (boot disk) and play the game. (remember at this time 256k memory was huge! Yes 256k.)
As time passed the games became better, especially graphics. We had to upgrade PCs and Video Cards to play. Also back then memory came board sized. Anyhow, after awhile an upgrade would have to be made to a PC that had a hard drive and a higher performing CPU. Unfortunately boxed sets like Janes etc. stopped being produced. Reasons, back then flight sim fans were not great in number. We were regarded as Snobs for authenticity etc. As a result fewer people played Flight Sims and the production of flight sims at that time was very expensive! Those who produced them were losing money because sales couldn't cover production costs.
I'm saying if it weren't for MMOG SIMS like Air Warrior we wouldn't be playing today. And yes there are far more gamers' playing AH today then ever. AH has not changed, just the number of gamers versus those who love the history and accuracy of combat in the sky's during WWII. I basically only play in Scenarios for that reason. It's a pity.
Title: Re: Are We In A Sim Gaming Dark Age?
Post by: CptTrips on January 04, 2023, 04:03:54 PM
Oh forgot one last point before I put this to bed.
A F2P subset of players would have a couple of advantages.
One might be that part of earning the privilege of playing for free means you are volunteering to be moved to any side that needs more players by the server after any death. No need to ask. F2P'ers are volunteers by definition. Whenever the server needs to balance it can shuffle F2P'ers to a different side to maintain balance. Right after a death would be a convenient time.
If fact maybe F2P'ers never get to pick their side. Maybe they are placed where needed upon entering the arena and moved when ever the needs of game balance dictates.
BF has a server setting where you will get switched as needed to maintain balance after a death. You can also volunteer to switch. The Ah version could give the arena an announced time limit and then start moving FTP volunteers as needed. "Player balance needed. <dot command> to volunteer. Forced balancing to begin in 10 minutes." Only F2P'ers get forced.
Maybe the right to choose your side and stay there unless you volunteer to move is one of the perks you get with a paid account. Maybe a F2P volunteer get the full plane set for an hour when forcibly switched.
Maybe a system like this with a sufficient number of F2P "volunteers" can keep the arena balanced enough that ENY never needs to kick in.
Title: Re: Are We In A Sim Gaming Dark Age?
Post by: oboe on January 04, 2023, 04:30:01 PM
At first, I thought you might've linked a mockup of an HTC webpage as a joke, but I was able to find it myself by navigating to what feels like one of the back corners of the website. Can't say my heart didn't sink as I read it, but I think I can understand HTC's position. Plus I'm sure there are a ton of reasons influencing the decision that I'm unaware of.
AH as is, still offers plenty of fun; it's up to us to enjoy what we have.
Title: Re: Are We In A Sim Gaming Dark Age?
Post by: CptTrips on January 04, 2023, 04:34:04 PM
Finding this put it to bed for me: At first, I thought you might've linked a mockup of an HTC webpage as a joke, but I was able to find it myself by navigating to what feels like one of the back corners of the website. Can't say my heart didn't sink as I read it, but I think I can understand HTC's position. Plus I'm sure there are a ton of reasons influencing the decision that I'm unaware of.
AH as is, still offers plenty of fun; it's up to us to enjoy what we have.
Welcome to the final stage of grief.
I hope you find peace.
:cool:
Title: Re: Are We In A Sim Gaming Dark Age?
Post by: Nefarious on January 04, 2023, 04:45:28 PM
This paragraph and the link needs updated... Spikes, if you see this:
Quote
Same special events
Just as we have done for years, we will continue to offer special monthly gaming events like King of the Hill, Friday Squad Operations, Scenarios, and This Day in History.
Just as we have done for years, we will continue to offer a myriad of options with regards to learning tools and a helpful staff and volunteers.
Title: Re: Are We In A Sim Gaming Dark Age?
Post by: CptTrips on January 04, 2023, 05:23:58 PM
Hmmm those Phantoms might lure me back to try fixed wing again.
After I'm done with the Chinook. ;)
It seems like you may be the one who needs to get to the acceptance stage. DCS seems to have a lot more backing and employees and outside companies producing content for the game. At most, HTC had what, 8 employees?
If you have all these great ideas and plans, give HTC a call. Otherwise, the stuff you say here over and over won't mean a whole lot.
Title: Re: Are We In A Sim Gaming Dark Age?
Post by: DmonSlyr on January 04, 2023, 06:04:12 PM
I think maps make or break this game. When you have bowlMA, Buzzsaw, and then Crater MA, back to back over the weekend it's not good for the #s. The #s were much lower than they could have been the last 2 weeks during the holidays because the current lopsided map rotation. Atleast mix up the rotation so they worst maps aren't back to back and hog the entire weekend leaving poor off hours #s with scattered action. Why is it so hard to take them out for a couple of weeks just to see?
Title: Re: Are We In A Sim Gaming Dark Age?
Post by: Spikes on January 04, 2023, 06:07:04 PM
Very good points I think. Wonder if we will have a renaissance? I had high hopes for IL2-1946 with all of the post-war what-ifs but I never could install it.
You didn't miss anything. There were some interesting things you could do with the Skins and Emblems, but outside of that, its Flight Model would drive you up the wall and onto the ceiling
Title: Re: Are We In A Sim Gaming Dark Age?
Post by: CptTrips on January 04, 2023, 06:08:31 PM
I watched the video earlier and honestly wasn't impressed.
I may be a DCS lurker, but nothing in that video was something I didn't know about already with the exception of maybe some type of Egypt Terrain.
The F4U, F-4E, La 7 have already been teased last last year, I won't be buying any of those modules. (I will buy any naval variant Phantom though - F-4B/J/N/S)
Which brings me to my issue with DCS and that is the snails pace releases for 1 aircraft. Nearly every aircraft I really want has been teased, but here we are, some of them years since they have been teased and they still aren't here.
Title: Re: Are We In A Sim Gaming Dark Age?
Post by: Spikes on January 04, 2023, 06:12:53 PM
Which brings me to my issue with DCS and that is the snails pace releases for 1 aircraft. Nearly every aircraft I really want has been teased, but here we are, some of them years since they have been teased and they still aren't here.
Just wait until he rubs it in our faces that AH hasn't had an aircraft released since whenever. :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Are We In A Sim Gaming Dark Age?
Post by: Spikes on January 04, 2023, 06:13:53 PM
I watched the video earlier and honestly wasn't impressed.
Fair enough. I hadn't heard about the F4U or the Chinook yet, but I don't check out all their updates. That's also more of the phantom than I had seen previously. Have you heard if there is going to be a Vietnam map? More toys for Enigma's cold war stuff.
Which brings me to my issue with DCS and that is the snails pace releases for 1 aircraft. Nearly every aircraft I really want has been teased, but here we are, some of them years since they have been teased and they still aren't here.
I feel ya. I about have puppies waiting for that Apache. I wish the process were faster. However, they haven't stopped. They are still pushing. Still trying to move the ball forward. Still trying to add more capabilities. (What I'm hearing about the new dynamic campaign engine sounds really interesting.) Often they mis-step. Often they might mis-prioritize. But there is a pulse there.
What they didn't is say, "Ya know, DCS 2.7 is actually the greatest sim ever produced by western civilization. Since it is perfect, we see no reason to contemplate further new features in the future. Why mess with perfection?"
Besides, aren't aircraft often 3rd party dev teams? Some very small? ED can't make them code faster. Some of these modules are insanely detailed and complex. I think I read the module make also has to get sign off from the real world manufacturer at each stage to verify their platform is being fairly represented. So a lot of that delay may be on the defense contractors. Ever deal with Lockheed? Boeing? Raytheon? They can make the government look nimble.
But they keep trying. And they will consider big changes. There is live development going on. You can at least feel a pulse.
An example of what you are talking about is the Kiowa. Jeez. It's a meme at this point. Like Duke Nukem Forever. But Barundus is starting to drop some of the tutorial vids so it is getting closer (if the sequence of events from Apache are a pattern). You can't get enough egg beaters for me. ;)
Title: Re: Are We In A Sim Gaming Dark Age?
Post by: LCADolby on January 04, 2023, 06:43:57 PM
It appears the high priestess is on the rag again. Good luck with that.
Did he just become self aware?
Title: Re: Are We In A Sim Gaming Dark Age?
Post by: AKIron on January 04, 2023, 07:06:30 PM
The DCS AH-64D is far from complete but I'm still having fun learning it. I've made a few videos on various subjects. My mistakes are more entertaining than instructional.
https://youtu.be/ru_SDov88Ak
Title: Re: Are We In A Sim Gaming Dark Age?
Post by: CptTrips on January 04, 2023, 07:13:36 PM
The DCS AH-64D is far from complete but I'm still having fun learning it. I've made a few videos on various subjects. My mistakes are more entertaining than instructional.
https://youtu.be/ru_SDov88Ak
Yeah it had some rough edges on release but still pretty amazing for a early access product.
:aok
Title: Re: Are We In A Sim Gaming Dark Age?
Post by: mechanic on January 04, 2023, 07:27:20 PM
Actually Eastern Civilisation. Originaly a Moscow based company with a Russian Lead developer. :rock
Good luck getting them to admit that at the current moment. ;) They swear they are 100% Switzerland based now. Perhaps with a few Russian "contractors". ;) I was sweating my Apache getting delayed at the last moment due to sanctions. :O
But point taken.
Title: Re: Are We In A Sim Gaming Dark Age?
Post by: nrshida on January 05, 2023, 02:58:35 AM
"When you log onto Aces High for the first time, you will notice a vast array of aircraft to choose from, and we are constantly adding to that list."
This can only mean a new fighter will be released in two weeks! :banana:
Title: Re: Are We In A Sim Gaming Dark Age?
Post by: Eagler on January 05, 2023, 07:02:38 AM
"Why mess with success?
Same special events
Just as we have done for years, we will continue to offer special monthly gaming events like King of the Hill, Friday Squad Operations, Scenarios, and This Day in History."
Nice write up..we will see soon if it is true..as KOTH seems to have other plans..
Eagler
Title: Re: Are We In A Sim Gaming Dark Age?
Post by: Nefarious on January 05, 2023, 07:22:34 AM
Just as we have done for years, we will continue to offer special monthly gaming events like King of the Hill, Friday Squad Operations, Scenarios, and This Day in History."
Nice write up..we will see soon if it is true..as KOTH seems to have other plans..
Eagler
Yeah, TDIH is no longer ran and with the exception of KOTH, only FSO is ran monthly.
Title: Re: Are We In A Sim Gaming Dark Age?
Post by: CptTrips on January 05, 2023, 09:04:46 AM
Nice write up..we will see soon if it is true..as KOTH seems to have other plans..
For what it is worth, we have tried to recruit some KOTH help for fuzeman for a couple of years now, but there never seemed to be any interest from the KOTH community and fuzeman has been left running the event by himself.
Title: Re: Are We In A Sim Gaming Dark Age?
Post by: Softail on January 07, 2023, 06:28:51 PM
"Aces High will not change, just as it has not undergone any massive changes since we first introduced it in 2000, twenty-two years ago."
So incrementally.....there have been changes that have changed the game play since AH1. So F2P would just be another incremental change.
I can't count the number of game changes that have been put in place since 2000....but to dismiss them all and say this is the same game.... is untrue and really shoots ones self in the foot from a marketing standpoint. Just basically say...we are and old game for old people....we will never change. Then wonder, how do I get more people to sign up? The only ones wondering that are the players. Obviously, this game will run as-is until subscriptions fall below 10% above overhead costs. Then it will get shutdown. I would guess it would happen immediately after the billing cycle. LOL.
I am surprised every time I successfully log on!
Kill Red Guys!
Title: Re: Are We In A Sim Gaming Dark Age?
Post by: Eagler on January 08, 2023, 07:06:48 AM
As it is the best ww2 a2a combat multiplayer going, I hope it finds a marketing strategy to keep it going for another 23 years...or 10 as my eyes will probably limit my play by then 😀
I don't need much more than smaller maps to concentrate the action for the 100 some odd online when I log-on in the evenings
I have all the planes and graphics I need plus some fantastic players to team with or try to shoot down
Who/why ask for more?
Eagler
Title: Re: Are We In A Sim Gaming Dark Age?
Post by: CptTrips on January 08, 2023, 10:58:34 AM
Obviously, this game will run as-is until subscriptions fall below 10% above overhead costs. Then it will get shutdown. I would guess it would happen immediately after the billing cycle. LOL.
I am surprised every time I successfully log on!
Heh. On the good side, I suspect the remaining population is fairly stable. Anyone who would have bailed because of lack of new innovation would have already left. The remaining population is still here for the social network as much as anything else. AS long as the forum, vox, and lonely gramps chat room chan200 are working, they'll show up to yuck it up with old friends. Maybe with an occasional "Pew! Pew!". That's cool. That is a value to the remaining customers.
I suspect the cost of running the servers (power and bandwidth) is probably pretty low at this point. It just purrs away in his closet. He could go get another job. Just an evening or two a week to publish a skins pack.
So it can linger around in its current state for quite some time longer I suspect. I see two big threats (assuming drawing in no new blood and burning through the remaining players):
1. Natural mortality. There is probably a fairly tight demographic curve for AH players. Those who where in their prime gamer years when WB was at it's peak. Think of a age distribution bell curve. A few 80 yo, some 70 yo, a lot of 60 yo, some 50 yo, a few 40 yo, maybe some 30 yo ex-squeakers. ;) As that bell curve shifts in age, cohorts start hitting their expiration date. There are a lot more obituary threads now than 10 years ago it seems. As the hump of that bell curve moves into their expiration date, expect an obituary thread or two a month. Even so, it would take a while to drop the numbers so low that it wouldn't be worth the electricity or bandwidth to let the server continue to run in the closet.
2. Another threat might be an economic crash. I'd like to see a Lusche chart of how 2008 effected player count. Maybe that can be inferred from changes in deaths per hour? Hours played per day? People with marginal subscriptions they weren't quite willing to close might change their minds after their retirement portfolios drop by 50%.
Regardless, if AH were going to have to shut down, I'm sure they would give everyone a couple of months notice. I don't believe HTC would ever inappropriately charge someone's card. But I'm pretty sure you were just joking.
:salute
Title: Re: Are We In A Sim Gaming Dark Age?
Post by: -gg- on January 08, 2023, 11:02:28 AM
As it is the best ww2 a2a combat multiplayer going, I hope it finds a marketing strategy to keep it going for another 23 years...or 10 as my eyes will probably limit my play by then 😀
I don't need much more than smaller maps to concentrate the action for the 100 some odd online when I log-on in the evenings
I have all the planes and graphics I need plus some fantastic players to team with or try to shoot down
Who/why ask for more?
Eagler
It really is.
I hope that HT can get more eyes on this game, because I think better exposure to search engines would help a lot over time. I think people that are searching for a WWII combat game are more likely to find War Thunder and even Warbrids before AH starts showing up in returns.
In my opinion, AH should be the top game anyone see when looking for this kind of game.
The website needs to have all the crap, old content moved off the front page. The front page needs to be a better landing page. The front page needs to have only content focused on what kind of game it is, and it's not hard to do. It's not hard to get Google to start indexing this kind of website with such a small, specific niche - to get Google to list AH in the top results for anyone searching for any game related to WWII or even just multiplayer sim games. Not hard at all.
Title: Re: Are We In A Sim Gaming Dark Age?
Post by: CptTrips on January 08, 2023, 12:40:09 PM
I’m not an expert on SEO, so I will assume you are right on everything you say. That is something that might be worth trying, but only because it is almost free. Try some different approaches and track you metrics and see if any changes increase discoverability.
However, I’m not convinced it would make much difference. I’m not sure eyes on target is the main problem. Conversion rate is the problem.
Steam is a platform of gamers. Gamers who go to that platform do spend money. They will have looked at the product page and seen screenshots and knew exactly what kind of game it was (other than thinking it had F2P plane-set like WT. ;) ).
I used to have the link, but there were a ridiculous number of trial downloads during the Steam launch. Tens of thousands per month or something silly. I think HT said he is getting around 1% conversion rate. That could mean anything depending on your definition of “around”. It could be 1.1% or 0.0000000126%. Anything above zero can be rounded up to “around” one percent.
How many people on this forum came in fresh from the Steam launch and are still here? If you are there I’d like to hear. I’d be interested.
It’s why it is silly for people to tell HT to advertise. Or set up tables at air shows and hand out t-shirts to rando’s.
There is no national media buy that will ever be more targeted to a potential player based than the eyes that were put on the product from the Steam launch. If Steam players reject the product, you are not likely to have much luck elsewhere no matter how many eyes you bring. Not enough to justify any kind of reasonable ROI. I’m sure HT would throw money at advertising like a Congressman if he felt there was a positive ROI.
Bottom line is, first you fix the conversion rate so you can have a positive ROI. When you understand how that needs to be solved, then you pour on the volume.
The bottom line is the current product, in it’s current form, is out of sync with the current markets tastes and expectations.
The alternative is to just keep what you have for the customers you still have left and just leave any new content to what the customers themselves are willing to produce. That is not an unreasonable business decision. It’s just sad and depressing. Feels like the end of an era. AH was very innovative in it’s early days. The willingness to break new ground and a relentless development pace is always what impressed me about AH.
It’s easy to forget how revolutionary the flat rate subscription was at the time. And then they cut THAT in half again. They were bold AF in their day. They looked and realized that the hourly model was becoming obsolete and not what the market wanted. They risked a new approach. Sadly, I wonder if they’ve missed the same shift away from old school two-week trial and subscription model.
Title: Re: Are We In A Sim Gaming Dark Age?
Post by: -gg- on January 08, 2023, 01:31:27 PM
I’m not an expert on SEO, so I will assume you are right on everything you say. That is something that might be worth trying, but only because it is almost free. Try some different approaches and track you metrics and see if any changes increase discoverability.
However, I’m not convinced it would make much difference. I’m not sure eyes on target is the main problem. Conversion rate is the problem.
Steam is a platform of gamers. Gamers who go to that platform do spend money. They will have looked at the product page and seen screenshots and knew exactly what kind of game it was (other than thinking it had F2P plane-set like WT. ;) ).
I used to have the link, but there were a ridiculous number of trial downloads during the Steam launch. Tens of thousands per month or something silly. I think HT said he is getting around 1% conversion rate. That could mean anything depending on your definition of “around”. It could be 1.1% or 0.0000000126%. Anything above zero can be rounded up to “around” one percent.
How many people on this forum came in fresh from the Steam launch and are still here? If you are there I’d like to hear. I’d be interested.
It’s why it is silly for people to tell HT to advertise. Or set up tables at air shows and hand out t-shirts to rando’s.
There is no national media buy that will ever be more targeted to a potential player based than the eyes that were put on the product from the Steam launch. If Steam players reject the product, you are not likely to have much luck elsewhere no matter how many eyes you bring. Not enough to justify any kind of reasonable ROI. I’m sure HT would throw money at advertising like a Congressman if he felt there was a positive ROI.
Bottom line is, first you fix the conversion rate so you can have a positive ROI. When you understand how that needs to be solved, then you pour on the volume.
The bottom line is the current product, in it’s current form, is out of sync with the current markets tastes and expectations.
The alternative is to just keep what you have for the customers you still have left and just leave any new content to what the customers themselves are willing to produce. That is not an unreasonable business decision. It’s just sad and depressing. Feels like the end of an era. AH was very innovative in it’s early days. The willingness to break new ground and a relentless development pace is always what impressed me about AH.
It’s easy to forget how revolutionary the flat rate subscription was at the time. And then they cut THAT in half again. They were bold AF in their day. They looked and realized that the hourly model was becoming obsolete and not what the market wanted. They risked a new approach. Sadly, I wonder if they’ve missed the same shift away from old school two-week trial and subscription model.
SEO will make a difference over time. It won't get massive amounts of players all at once, but it will get people who are specifically looking for a WWII combat/fighter sim game. And those people are out there. The first results they see now are thins like War Thunder and DCS.
The SEO is almost set and forget too. It's basically free, other than a little time.
Title: Re: Are We In A Sim Gaming Dark Age?
Post by: CptTrips on January 08, 2023, 01:35:00 PM