Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Tracers on March 14, 2015, 09:13:08 PM
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Hey all,
Just finished reading "The big show" for the second time. From the WWII fighter autobiographies I have read this still stands out as the best. Pierre Clostermann faced many terrifiying situations and still escaped with a sense of humour.
Taken from his diaries he wrote at the time. A man who even decades after the war has nothing but respect for his former enemies.
Can anyone reccomend a really good WWII biography that will better this?
(http://i1272.photobucket.com/albums/y382/matt_houston2/Mobile%20Uploads/2015-03/20150315_112159_zpsugcexcs2.jpg) (http://s1272.photobucket.com/user/matt_houston2/media/Mobile%20Uploads/2015-03/20150315_112159_zpsugcexcs2.jpg.html)
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Well have to check it out . There is a very good read about a machine gunner in Vietnam called Guns Up by Johnnie M. Clark you should check out .
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Wing Leader by Johnnie Johnson if you want an RAF focus. But there are many others as well.
Although my all time favorite fighter pilot book is "Nanette" by Edwards Park.
I've read Closterman's book many times. There are some factual inaccuracies in it, but it's still a good read
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I've read Closterman's book many times. There are some factual inaccuracies in it, but it's still a good read
Closterman is controversial, if I recall correctly; I think his contemporaries doubted his claims. Read somewhere that Johnnie Johnson spotted Closterman at some ceremony wearing a ribbon he hadn't actually been awarded.
Book is supposed to be almost poetry. Haven't had a chance to read it yet.
- oldman
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He does state in the intro that there may be inaccuracies that he didnt know of at the time but he didnt change them for the book, and just kept it as his old diaries had it recorded. A damn good read though.
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Well have to check it out . There is a very good read about a machine gunner in Vietnam called Guns Up by Johnnie M. Clark you should check out.
I'll track it down and have a read :salute
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Closterman is controversial, if I recall correctly; I think his contemporaries doubted his claims. Read somewhere that Johnnie Johnson spotted Closterman at some ceremony wearing a ribbon he hadn't actually been awarded.
Book is supposed to be almost poetry. Haven't had a chance to read it yet.
- oldman
At one point he's describing covering the remnants of the Schweinfurt bombers on thier return. This of course is October 43. He mentions landing at a coastal base and parking next to the red nose Mustang of Major Beeson. Since the 4th FG didn't get Mustangs until 44 and didn't get red noses until late March 44, that doesn't fit at all. That's just one example
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If you want to read Nanette Tracers, I'd be glad to lend you my copy.
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Yesterday I was at the flea market and found "Inside The Third Reich" that is on my bucket list...
So far I've carefully read up to part 1 chapter 4. I have found that even the foreword is a rich read and the desire to have a purpose can truly be a blessing and a curse.
I am looking forward to reading on and will share what other broad morals come up "at leasts one that don't get ruled"
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Got a new copy of The Big E for Christmas and read it voraciously and immediately. I'd forgotten how good Stafford 's writing was. Still the most dramatic telling of life aboard the Enterprise.
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Only partially about World War II, and a bit of dry read, but the subject is the greatest pilot of all time.
(http://i556.photobucket.com/albums/ss9/aviate14/JHD%20auto%20biography.jpg) (http://s556.photobucket.com/user/aviate14/media/JHD%20auto%20biography.jpg.html)
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A good read from the losing side. A lot of the book is about the Eastern front.
(http://i556.photobucket.com/albums/ss9/aviate14/Stuka%20Pilot.jpg) (http://s556.photobucket.com/user/aviate14/media/Stuka%20Pilot.jpg.html)
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There are a lot of good books on the Battle of Britain. This is the most recent that I read.
(http://i556.photobucket.com/albums/ss9/aviate14/Wings%20Like%20Eagles.jpg) (http://s556.photobucket.com/user/aviate14/media/Wings%20Like%20Eagles.jpg.html)
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A good read from the losing side. A lot of the book is about the Eastern front.
And a lot of it is probably fiction.
- oldman
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Although my all time favorite fighter pilot book is "Nanette" by Edwards Park.
Great book, and thanks again Dan... how's the little one doing?
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Great book, and thanks again Dan... how's the little one doing?
He's six now. Growing like a weed. And he's an uncle as my daughter had our first grandchild. He's another cartoon pilot in waiting :)
I trust yours are doing well also? Scared to ask how old now?
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He's six now. Growing like a weed. And he's an uncle as my daughter had our first grandchild. He's another cartoon pilot in waiting :)
I trust yours are doing well also? Scared to ask how old now?
they are doing awesome... my daughter turned 17 yesterday(that's where my first ingame name came from 03/15/98, or as you used to know me 031598), and my son will be 13 April 16th... I am so greatful to have the relationship I have with them considering what we all went through... glad to hear yours is doing well... 6 yo... wow, he's growing up also..
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If You Survive
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If You Survive
This a book title or just some random thought?
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This a book title or just some random thought?
Book title. Rather well known one actually. Story of a US lieutenant from Normandy to The Bulge.
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I'll 2nd the recommendation of "Nanette", my favorite WW2 book by far.
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This a book title or just some random thought?
:rofl
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Book title. Rather well known one actually. Story of a US lieutenant from Normandy to The Bulge.
Good to know, it wasn't clear from what you wrote. Authors name is helpful for folks tracking it down.
It's one I hadn't heard of
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1. A higher call
2. Panzer Leader. "Heinz Guderians" memoirs.
3. Forgot the name, but "Hans Von Lucks" memoirs.
4. I flew for the Fuhrer
5. Fighter pilot by Robin Olds
6. Anthony Beevor's Stalingrad.
7. Bevin Alexanders "How Hitler could have won WW2"
8. Siege: A Novel of the Eastern Front, 1942. Russ Schneider
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Just finished "The Wrong Stuff" by Truman Smith. Covers his time (and more) as a B-17 bomber co/pilot. Not the best ever read but kept me interested. Kindle ed.
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The semi-biographical novels of Joseph Heller ("Catch-22") and Kurt Vonnegut ("Slaughterhouse Five") are pretty great.
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Just the ones currently visible on the bookshelf:
The Jolly Rogers - Tom Blackburn
Top Guns - Joe Foss and Matthew Brennan
Dumb But Lucky - Richard K. Curtis
Thunderbolt! - Robert S. Johnson
Fighter Squadron at Guadalcanal - Max Brand
Vietnam
Thud Ridge - Jack Broughton
When Thunder Rolled - Ed Rasimus
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This book is a newer release, but it attempts to give the reader a view into life for the average German civilian and soldier. It isn't light reading by any stretch of the imagination, but it is by far the largest in scope from any type of psychosocial exposé I've read previously.
(http://www.tampabay.com/resources/images/dti/rendered/2009/07/LAT_REICH052409_75543a_8col.jpg)
This book is one of three, but the other two earlier in the series consist of the politics in Germany prior to the start of the war.
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Here's a copy of my book collection - I haven't updated it in over a year; I probably added two hundred to this list :)
http://www.filedropper.com/booklistforforum (http://www.filedropper.com/booklistforforum)
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A Question of Honor: The Kosciuszko Squadron: Forgotten Heroes of World War II
A Question of Honor is the gripping, little-known, and brilliantly told story of the scores of Polish fighter pilots who helped save England during the Battle of Britain and of their stunning betrayal by the United States and England at the end of World War II.
(http://d.gr-assets.com/books/1320502518l/2267634.jpg)
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Chick this out .
http://money.cnn.com/2015/03/19/news/mein-kampf-hitler-auction/index.html
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A Question of Honor: The Kosciuszko Squadron: Forgotten Heroes of World War II
A Question of Honor is the gripping, little-known, and brilliantly told story of the scores of Polish fighter pilots who helped save England during the Battle of Britain and of their stunning betrayal by the United States and England at the end of World War II.
(http://d.gr-assets.com/books/1320502518l/2267634.jpg)
Great book.
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When i get home from work I will post the titles and aurthors of my books there are several good reads! <S> yall and keep the books coming
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A few new-ish ones I can recommend, the first two being surveys of recently-discovered source material, the third a valuable 'alternate narrative,' as the kids say:
The Deserters: A Hidden History of World War II by Charles Glass; Penguin, 2013. "A survey of the 150,000 American and British known to have deserted in the European Theater."
Soldiers: German POWs on Fighting, Killing, and Dying by Sonke Neitzel and Harald Weltzer; Knopf, 2012. "...a unique and profoundly important window into the true mentality of the soldiers in the Wehrmacht, the Luftwaffe, the German navy, and the military in general."
The Second World War: A Marxist History by Chris Bambery; Pluto Press, 2014. "A comprehensive and detailed alternate history of the origins, cause and aftermath of World War II."
Cheerful stuff.
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Spitfire Offensive.
http://www.amazon.com/Spitfire-Offensive-R-W-F-Franks-Sampson/dp/0753715589/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1427033107&sr=8-1&keywords=spitfire+offensive
Horrido! Fighter aces of the Luftwaffe.
http://www.amazon.com/Horrido-Fighter-Luftwaffe-Raymond-Toliver/dp/0553126636/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1427033154&sr=8-1&keywords=horrido+fighter+aces+of+the+luftwaffe
To Fly And Fight.
http://www.amazon.com/Fly-Fight-Memoirs-Triple-Ace/dp/0935553347/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1427033209&sr=8-1&keywords=to+fly+and+fight
Samurai!
http://www.amazon.com/Samurai-Martin-Caiden/dp/0743412834/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1427033251&sr=8-1&keywords=samurai+sakai
Thud Ridge.
http://www.amazon.com/Thud-Ridge-Thunderchief-Missions-Vietnam/dp/0859791165/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1427033281&sr=8-1&keywords=thud+ridge
Fighter Pilot The memoirs of legendary ace Robin Olds.
http://www.amazon.com/Fighter-Pilot-Memoirs-Legendary-Robin/dp/0312569513/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1427033354&sr=8-1&keywords=robin+olds
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I just finished Men in Green Faces by Gene Wentz for the 3rd time. Great Book :aok :aok
http://www.amazon.com/Men-Green-Faces-Novel-SEALs/dp/1250036224/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1427061829&sr=8-1&keywords=men+in+green+faces (http://www.amazon.com/Men-Green-Faces-Novel-SEALs/dp/1250036224/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1427061829&sr=8-1&keywords=men+in+green+faces)
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The Face of Battle: The Study of Agincourt, Waterloo and The Somme by John Keegan
The Rockets' Red Glare: When America Goes to War, the Presidents and the People by Richard J. Barnet
The Buzzard Brigade: Torpedo Squadron Ten at war by Stephen L. Moore
The Winning Edge: An in depth study of the Oklahoma Sooners 1974-75 National Championship runs by Jack and Jim Fried
One Perfect Op by CMC Dennis Chalker
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The Face of Battle: The Study of Agincourt, Waterloo and The Somme by John Keegan
John Keegan is one of my favorite authors. Some books of his that I have read:
The Face of Battle
Six Armies in Normandy
Soldiers, A History of Men in Battle
The Mask of Command
The Second World War
A History of Warfare
Fields of Battle: The Wars for North America
The Iraq War
The American Civil War
Cornelius Ryan has a pretty good set of books:
The Longest Day
A Bridge Too Far
The Last Battle
Stephen Ambrose also has an impressive list:
Band of Brothers, E Company, 506th Regiment, 101st Airborne Division
D-Day, June 6, 1944: The Climactic Battle of World War II
Citizen Soldiers: The US Army from Normandy Beaches to the Bulge to the Surrender of Germany, June 7, 1944 – May 7, 1945
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Yes, John Keegan is both prolific and extremely talented. All of those books are worth reading.
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Duel of Eagles - Peter Townsend. Excellent read.
For a ground based account of D-Day - read Two Sides of the Beach. Not an easy read due to its diary style format but well worth it. Some very interesting insights to how young men think and fight. That is why we send them to war - us older guys see more danger, they see more adventure.
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Wonder what the bed is now , lol .
http://money.cnn.com/2015/03/19/news/mein-kampf-hitler-auction/index.html
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The Last Battle
The issue that I had with the Last Battle was that it was terribly short and not really much on details of the actual battle that took place. It seemed like the actual fight for Castle Itter was just glossed over in the book.
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Not a biography, but Blitzkrieg No Longer by Samuel W. Mitchem was a fascinating read, detailing the logistics situation for the Wehrmacht, and how our affected their campaigns.
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Some of my all-time favorites, in no particular order:
"The Hardest Day, 18 August 1940: Battle of Britain" by Alfred Price
One day examined from a number of different angles, both big-picture and intensely personal
"When I was a German" by Christabel Bielenberg
An English woman who married into German aristocracy, and who knew several of those involved in the 1944 plot to assassinate the guy with the bad haircut
"The Battle Of Britain: Myth and Reality" by Richard Overy
Excellent view of the Battle and its history
"The Air War: 1939-45" by Richard Overy
Superb big-picture overview of all the major air forces in WWII
"Berlin Diaries, 1940 - 1945" by Marie Vassilchikov
Brings to life the operatic Gotterdämerrung that played out in late-war Berlin, from the perspective of a multi-lingual White Russian princess stranded in Germany by the War, and working in the Foreign Office. She know von Seyn-Wittgenstein from the Berlin nightlife scene.
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Lieutenant Ramsey's War is a book I highly recommend if one wants to read about the US/Filipino guerrilla war in in the Philippines. Also, "An America Guerrilla in the Philippines" is a memoir by Iliff Richardson about his time as a guerrilla fighting the Japanese and an excellent book as well.
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I just finished reading Michael Korda's book "With Wings Like Eagles"
It wasn't terrible but I cant say I would recommend it. For instance, his questionable praise of Chamberlain's appeasement policy with regard to Germany and his subsequent claim that Chamberlains plan was to buy time so England could rearm is a stretch, as are a few other of his personal opinions of the political leadership of that time.
The book is more of a political review of the major players involved and less of a study of the battle.
The first red flag for me was on the very 1st page after you flip the cover, a page titled "Praise for With Wings Like Eagles",
at the bottom of the page and I quote, "A gripping tale, brilliantly told of-as Michael Korda so rightly puts it- the greatest battle of the 20th century, and possibly, given the stakes, of all history." -Winston S. Churchill
Apart from the "all of history" part is the fact that Mr. Churchill had been dead for over 4 decades before this book was 1st published. I don't know how an error like that got past the proof readers.
Another is that Mr. Korda was Editor-in-Chief at Simon and Schuster where he worked for more than 40 years but this book was published by Harper and Collins. Why?
There are many better books to choose from IMO.
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I just realized that the Churchill that praised the book is the grandson that passed in 2010.
I stupidly jumped to the wrong conclusion.
My apologies.
I still can't recommend the book.
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Just read "Dumb But Lucky" written by a P-51 pilot who mostly flew out of Italy. I liked the book cause it was written by a self described blue collar fighter pilot who got thrown in a P-51 with only about 30 hours of training flight time. Eventually, of course, the new Mustang Pilots required 200 hrs and weeks of Indoc flying with their squadrons.
He spoke well of the P-51B and how much the Pilots liked it.
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Dumb but Lucky is a good one! Alost i cant recall the aurther but "Soldier in the cockpit" is about a typhoon pilot and its a good read. I keep forgetting to post my mini library on here maybe ill remember in the morning this time. <S> 49Boob
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Hey all,
Just finished reading "The big show" for the second time. ...Can anyone reccomend a really good WWII biography that will better this?
"Terror in the Starboard Seat" (I think also published as Mosquito Intruder), by Dave McIntosh. Navigator-turned-journalist's war memoir, incomparably good. With one exception, I've been able to trace the most notable incidents he mentions, true to life.
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"Terror in the Starboard Seat" (I think also published as Mosquito Intruder), by Dave McIntosh. Navigator-turned-journalist's war memoir, incomparably good. With one exception, I've been able to trace the most notable incidents he mentions, true to life.
I've had that one on the shelf since it first came out. The RCAF version of "Nanette". If you love Mossies that one is hard to beat.
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Soldier in the Cockpit: From rifles to typhoons in WWII by Rown W. Pottinger
Aces High: The Heroic Saga of the Two Top-Scoring American Aces of World War II by Bill Yenne
Ace of the Eighth: An American Fighter Pilot's Air War in Europe by Norman "Bud" Fortier
Baa Baa Blacksheep by Grogory Boyington (Pappy hiself)
theres one other that i cant recall
Roll me Over (Cant recall the author) is a good infantry read.
Im currently reading Final Flight by Stephen Coonts
<S> 49Boob
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I just finished Part One of "Inside The Thrid Reich"
The question it left me at the end was "where was Hitler's logic? Was it that shrouded in meglomania?"
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I just finished Part One of "Inside The Thrid Reich"
The question it left me at the end was "where was Hitler's logic? Was it that shrouded in meglomania?"
Anger and resentment at the other nations for WWI, Jews for his mother and a scape goat for WWI that doesn't state Germany got in over her head.
Its clear he really had begun to convince himself of the propaganda his party was spewing forth, and after Germany had rearmed, there was some truth to the thought that they could conquer Europe. Their success prior to Barbarossa shows as much.
However, with success, Hitler grew ever more entrenched in the idea of the German Übermenschen, the Herrenvolk. Combined with his dislike of Commies and Slavs, and you get the Eastern front, and the ultimate downfall of Germany.
Was he mentally fragile and unstable to begin with? Probably. It would account for his seemingly pathological need to deny the reality of Germany's loss in WWI. But starting from this point, the logic (or rather insane machinations) is quite clear.
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Anger and resentment at the other nations for WWI, Jews for his mother and a scape goat for WWI that doesn't state Germany got in over her head.
Its clear he really had begun to convince himself of the propaganda his party was spewing forth, and after Germany had rearmed, there was some truth to the thought that they could conquer Europe. Their success prior to Barbarossa shows as much.
However, with success, Hitler grew ever more entrenched in the idea of the German Übermenschen, the Herrenvolk. Combined with his dislike of Commies and Slavs, and you get the Eastern front, and the ultimate downfall of Germany.
Was he mentally fragile and unstable to begin with? Probably. It would account for his seemingly pathological need to deny the reality of Germany's loss in WWI. But starting from this point, the logic (or rather insane machinations) is quite clear.
Probably not to begin with... Just a loony with resentment... What probably tipped it over was his lousey health and thus rushed everything possible while demanding the impossible. Goering was even more of a animal.
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Probably not to begin with... Just a loony with resentment... What probably tipped it over was his lousey health and thus rushed everything possible while demanding the impossible. Goering was even more of a animal.
There was some special on the Military Channel years ago that ran a parallel result assuming Hitler had simply waited in France and not gone forward with Barbarossa. A 3-5 year pause resulted in London falling due to the German Wehrmacht growing quickly because of the numerical losses that never occurred on the Eastern Front. The special indicated once Hitler had Europe, he would have spent 7 years on Russia and won and by 1960, had all of N Africa and Turkey.
Interesting.
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I think that, had Hitler consolidated, he could have built up and improved his special weapons projects, many of which had much promise to mature into devastating weapons.
Beyond that, Germany was more than capable of producing a nuclear weapon. Combined with their quite advanced rocket technology, or proper maturation of one of their jet bomber designs, and it would have put Germany right up there with the USA in terms of its capacity to wage war.
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I think that, had Hitler consolidated, he could have built up and improved his special weapons projects, many of which had much promise to mature into devastating weapons.
Beyond that, Germany was more than capable of producing a nuclear weapon. Combined with their quite advanced rocket technology, or proper maturation of one of their jet bomber designs, and it would have put Germany right up there with the USA in terms of its capacity to wage war.
It wasn't even as complicated as that... Just foresight in general would have made a much more drastic difference... The U-boat program for example... He thought about it, thought it was a good idea but it hampered his glorious timeline of prestige. Then the same can be sai about the Russian campaign. It wasn't just supplies for his armies but the foresight that people like Speer had to bolster the railroad first and get that repaired before any advances could be made.
Nuclear technology was possible too, however by the time and Cyclotron production was even considered they wouldn't have had any nuclear device until 1947.
There are a lot of what-ifs period of how history could have been different and that in itself makes it fascinating. Imagine if Hitler put his ego aside and enveloped himself members of his entourage with higher education and not monsters like Goering and Boremann.
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I just finished reading Michael Korda's book "With Wings Like Eagles"
It wasn't terrible but I cant say I would recommend it. For instance, his questionable praise of Chamberlain's appeasement policy with regard to Germany and his subsequent claim that Chamberlains plan was to buy time so England could rearm is a stretch, as are a few other of his personal opinions of the political leadership of that time.
It may be a stretch, but it was the first time that I had heard that claim. Most history attributes "Peace in our time" to cowardice. As it turned out, the RAF was just getting Mark Is to the units for the Battle of Britain.
Political, yes, but there seems to be something about Dowding that the author left out. I am not sure what.
The book offers up (to me) a fresh perspective, as opposed to more of the same old ...I think that, had Hitler consolidated, he could have built up and improved his special weapons projects, many of which had much promise to mature into devastating weapons.
Beyond that, Germany was more than capable of producing a nuclear weapon. Combined with their quite advanced rocket technology, or proper maturation of one of their jet bomber designs, and it would have put Germany right up there with the USA in terms of its capacity to wage war.
Germany was doomed to lose World War II from the start. Period.
The US had 30% of the worlds manufacturing capacity, even at the end of the Great Depression. It is an odd but too common fantasy to have the Nazis win the war. It would have never happened.
Get over it.
See Dunnigan's book:
(http://i556.photobucket.com/albums/ss9/aviate14/Dirty%20Little%20Secrets%20WW2.png) (http://s556.photobucket.com/user/aviate14/media/Dirty%20Little%20Secrets%20WW2.png.html)
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"If grandma had a dick, she'd be grandpa"
All of these silly 'what if the Germans would have won' scenarios hinge on Germany's leadership doing everything exactly right throughout the whole war, and the Allies making all of the same mistakes (or more).
What if France hadn't let Germany remilitarize the Rheinland?
What if Stalin hadn't gutted the Soviet military leadership in the late 30s?
What if Ribbentrop and Molotov hadn't signed the non-aggression pact in 1939?
What if France was prepared for the war and invaded Germany while the latter was bogged down in Poland?
What if France hadn't invested all of those resources in the Maginot line and hadn't fallen for the Werhmacht's outmaneuvering and diversions?
For every scenario where Germany wins, there are like four where WWII lasts two weeks. The question 'what if Hitler hadn't invaded the Soviet Union' is ridiculous, giving the 'Uebermenschen' 'Lebensraum' was his whole thing. "What if everything about the Nazi's policies were completely different?"
"What if Hitler hadn't invaded the Soviet Union?" is about as intellectually stimulating a question as "What if Hitler had just gone to art school?"
The First and the Last by Adolf Galland is an interesting read. Gives you an impression of how hopeless the air war was for the Luftwaffe, and a unique perspective from the commander of the Jagdwaffe.
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For every scenario where Germany wins, there are like four where WWII lasts two weeks. The question 'what if Hitler hadn't invaded the Soviet Union' is ridiculous, giving the 'Uebermenschen' 'Lebensraum' was his whole thing. "What if everything about the Nazi's policies were completely different?"
"What if Hitler hadn't invaded the Soviet Union?" is about as intellectually stimulating a question as "What if Hitler had just gone to art school?"
The First and the Last by Adolf Galland is an interesting read. Gives you an impression of how hopeless the air war was for the Luftwaffe, and a unique perspective from the commander of the Jagdwaffe.
Indeed. Galland's book is quite illuminating on the high command's failure to understand the reality of the war.
As for the other bits, Hitler's policies and decisions from the start doomed Germany. While I'd like to credit him with the success of turning the economy around, one must remember that it was done with the pretext of inevitably going to war. Sure, he gained ground in world power (both literally and figuratively) with the annexation of Austria and Czechoslovakia as well as the signing of the Molotov/Ribbentrop Pact, the invasion of Poland was a gross miscalculation. Hitler did not actually expect a declaration of war. His early successes and the quick victories over the Belgians, French and Norway were the exception - not the rule. Hitler's decisions both before and during the war sapped Germany of men and material needed to fight effectively in the long term. The fighter arm was too weak for a majority of the war. Too few men were sent into fighter squadrons and the squadrons themselves were too few in number. Only after America began bombing German cities did Hitler and Goering begin to give the idea of a defensive air war any consideration. What was done was too little too late. Too many assets were tied up in special projects, the V-1, V-2, Me-163, and Ar-234 projects were all useless in actuality, but Hitler and Goering dedicated resources to them while neglecting the need for a new piston engined fighter to replace the 109 and 190 as advancements to these airframes were inadequate. Also remember that The Me-262 production was also delayed because oh Hitler's wanting to use it as a Blitz bomber.
Also, very few people ever consider the resources wrapped up in the execution of the Holocaust. Granted, it's a small consideration compared to the lives of those murdered, but between the men posted to running the camps and the prisoners themselves, is a significant group of men able to fight and serve. Hitler's attempt to strengthen Germany via "racial purity" actually helped to cripple it. One of Germany's greatest assets, the Jewish community was seen by him as worthless, in every sense of the word. This attitude is both stupid and tragic.
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If Hitler wanted the "eliminate" the Jews he should have made them soldiers. In the sense that The U.S held blacks way back when or the Russians used their Convicts. Hilter could have assigned them the suicide missions and accomplished somthing while still "exterminating" them. Then the resources used to house torture and kill the jews could have been used elsewhere.
Instead of all the experiments he had done which I assume a ton of resources were dumped there uselessly like with the V1 V2 programs ect. If he would have focused on destroying his enemy, defending his newly aquired land, and winning a war he would have gotten farther. Ultimately to lose but still I think he would have made more progress. And the move on the USSR surely didnt help any.
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For every scenario where Germany wins, there are like four where WWII lasts two weeks.
Agreed.
- oldman
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OK, well, I guess we're done here.
Back to threads about baking and vacuum cleaners.
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"If grandma had a dick, she'd be grandpa"
All of these silly 'what if the Germans would have won' scenarios hinge on Germany's leadership doing everything exactly right throughout the whole war, and the Allies making all of the same mistakes (or more).
What if France hadn't let Germany remilitarize the Rheinland?
What if Stalin hadn't gutted the Soviet military leadership in the late 30s?
What if Ribbentrop and Molotov hadn't signed the non-aggression pact in 1939?
What if France was prepared for the war and invaded Germany while the latter was bogged down in Poland?
What if France hadn't invested all of those resources in the Maginot line and hadn't fallen for the Werhmacht's outmaneuvering and diversions?
For every scenario where Germany wins, there are like four where WWII lasts two weeks. The question 'what if Hitler hadn't invaded the Soviet Union' is ridiculous, giving the 'Uebermenschen' 'Lebensraum' was his whole thing. "What if everything about the Nazi's policies were completely different?"
"What if Hitler hadn't invaded the Soviet Union?" is about as intellectually stimulating a question as "What if Hitler had just gone to art school?"
The First and the Last by Adolf Galland is an interesting read. Gives you an impression of how hopeless the air war was for the Luftwaffe, and a unique perspective from the commander of the Jagdwaffe.
Historians look at things differently and like to run what-if's for curiously sake and for literary fun. Jeezus you and Rufleek need to calm down. No body is trying to take Americas win away, lmao.
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Germany was doomed to lose World War II from the start. Period.
On one hand if you look at the manufacturing stand point - Germany was in no position to start a war. On the other hand, Germany shouldn't of taken France considering france had more planes, troops and tanks that were higher quality then the Germans.
Fact is all Germany had to do was stay out of Russia and ignore Japan, Hitler would of had his little thousand year Reich. United states was not interested in the war, in fact in 1940 the public opinion was mostly opposed to the european "problem".
Another interesting fact is France had over 40 divisions on Germany's boarder and Germany only had two divisions defending it; the french could of squashed Germany by 1941.
hypothetical situations are a great way to read more in depth; I have 80% historical facts for my books, however there is nothing wrong with a little "What If" scenarios now and then; the out come of the war has already been decided.
Pick up a Tom Clancy book now and then, he has some good writing :)
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OK, well, I guess we're done here.
Back to threads about baking and vacuum cleaners.
Now don't get all dejected. Our point was that the "what if" discussions always seem to focus on "what if Germany had done one more thing right." You can have at least as much fun going the other way.
- oldman
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Now don't get all dejected. Our point was that the "what if" discussions always seem to focus on "what if Germany had done one more thing right." You can have at least as much fun going the other way.
- oldman
Not really. How much fun is hypothesizing the loss of the winner when the winner was right? That's not fun.
Almost all of the what ifs are really done to remind folks how close the world was to a different outcome and/or how that would have looked. None of it is arguable really because it's just people's opinions.
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This debate reminds me of a sci-fi novel by the great Philip K. Dick called "The Man in the High Castle." A worthwhile read...
From WikiPedia:
The Man in the High Castle (1962) is an alternate history novel by American writer Philip K. Dick. The novel is set in 1962, fifteen years after the end of a fictional longer Second World War (1939–1947). It concerns intrigues between the victorious Axis Powers—Imperial Japan and Nazi Germany—as they rule over the former U.S., as well as daily life under the resulting totalitarian Fascist and imperialistic rule. Reported inspirations for the work include Ward Moore's alternate Civil War history, Bring the Jubilee (1953), various classic World War II histories, and the I Ching (which is referenced in the novel). The novel includes the construction of a novella within the novel that constitutes an alternate history within this alternate history (wherein the Allied Powers defeat the Axis Powers, though in a manner distinct from this actual historical outcome).
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James Bradley's Fly Boys (ISBN-13: 978-0316159432) is an awesome read. Details a story of several pilots during WWII. Details of the brutality American aircrew POW's suffered was very 'informative' and shocking. Still, one of the most memorable books I've read in a while and one that I would not hesitate to read again.
I'm surprised they haven't made a movie out of it yet....
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I'm surprised they haven't made a movie out of it yet....
No one really wants to see Japanese officers eating American corpses.
I hope.
- oldman
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I've read..
Attack of the Airacobras: Soviet Aces, American P-39s, and the Air War Against Germany (Modern War Studies)- by Dmitriy Loza and James F. Gebhardt
Cobra!: The Bell Aircraft Corporation 1934-1946 (Schiffer Military History Book) - by Birch Matthews
The Blond Knight of Germany: A biography of Erich Hartmann - by Raymond Toliver and Trevor Constable
To Fly and Fight: Memoirs of a Triple Ace - by Clarence E. Anderson and Joseph P. Hamelin
The First and the Last - By Adolf Galland
My Logbook: Reminiscences 1938-2006 - by Gunther Rall
Nanette: Her Pilot's Love Story - by Edwards Park
Fighter Combat - by Shaw
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Historians look at things differently and like to run what-if's for curiously sake and for literary fun. Jeezus you and Rufleek need to calm down. No body is trying to take Americas win away, lmao.
I’m calm. I don't try to win the forums, anymore.
I actually enjoy alternate history discussions intellectually. I just wanted to get out front of all the Nazi nostalgia. The trite arguments point to the jet engine, or the ballistic missile. This stuff may have extended the war, but never would have won it. Few people talk about how the Nazis did not go to a full war economy until it was too late. Few mention radar, sonar (ASDIC for you Brits,) Liberty ships, code breaking, high octane aviation fuel or the myriad advantages of the Allies.
This is my personal peeve. I am not saying that anyone here is endorsing anything evil.
The reason I included Dunnigan’s book is that it has many stats that make a compelling argument for the inevitability of defeat as of Sept 1, 1939. For example, the US manufactured 50+% of all planes during the World War 2. Dunnigan was a prolific game designer (and owner?) of SPI, a paper and counter wargame company in the 1970s.
This debate reminds me of a sci-fi novel by the great Philip K. Dick called "The Man in the High Castle." A worthwhile read...
I saw this a while back when searching for 'alternate history' books.
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This debate reminds me of a sci-fi novel by the great Philip K. Dick called "The Man in the High Castle." A worthwhile read...
From WikiPedia:
I've read it, not his best IMO but very enjoyable none the less.
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Well have to check it out . There is a very good read about a machine gunner in Vietnam called Guns Up by Johnnie M. Clark you should check out .
Any of you men like reading about Vietnam , Seems I'm hooked on those mostly . Anyone know of a good read on this .
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I see they've made a TV series based on The man in the High Castle... http://www.warhistoryonline.com/war-articles/if-japan-and-nazi-germany-won-wwii-a-look-at-the-man-in-the-high-castle.html
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I have seen the pilot which I liked. I do not know if it has been picked up as a series however.
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Any of you men like reading about Vietnam , Seems I'm hooked on those mostly . Anyone know of a good read on this .
Guns up was good also look at 13cent killers by John J Culbertson
Blood on the Risers by John Leppelman
Acceptable Loss by Kregg P.J. Jorgensen
Seawolves by Daniel E. Kelly
And one I read in high school calls Fallen Angels I can't recall the authors name the copy I had was a paper back the cover being white with the title in red letters and soldiers standing in a group.
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Recommend 'Studio Europe' and 'Studio Asia' , by John Groth.
Good reads, rare but not pricey...the 2nd reads like our Vietnam, but it's the French, earlier. We just repeated the mistakes.
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Any of you men like reading about Vietnam , Seems I'm hooked on those mostly . Anyone know of a good read on this .
"Dispatches". Michael Herr
"Rumor of War" Phillip Caputo
"Fields of Fire" James Webb
Those are my top three in that order. Others worth the time include books by Tim O'Brien. Tim Pages book detailing the correspondents and photographers killed is very worthwhile also.
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"Dispatches". Michael Herr
"Rumor of War" Phillip Caputo
"Fields of Fire" James Webb
Those are my top three in that order. Others worth the time include books by Tim O'Brien. Tim Pages book detailing the correspondents and photographers killed is very worthwhile also.
The Things They Carried by Tim O'Brien is one of my favorite books, it's fiction (and actually has a re-occurring themes of facts vs memory and what's real). It's a pretty quick read and I heavily recommend it, a great piece of literature.
I also really enjoyed The Cat From Hue by John Laurence. The author was a war correspondent for Kronkite and adopted a feral cat while covering the batte for Hue. The book chronicles his time in Vietnam and how perceptions of the war changed.
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Any of you men like reading about Vietnam , Seems I'm hooked on those mostly . Anyone know of a good read on this .
I consider "365 Days" by Ronald Glasser to be one of the three or four best books written about any war. For those of you who have read it, I know a guy who knew the real-life Macabe in "The Shaping Up of Macabe."
"Fields of Fire," as others have said.
"The Thirteenth Valley," by John del Vecchio, is vivid. I rank it only slightly below "365 Days."
I don't think the factual histories will catch up with the novels until we can see whatever documentation the Vietnamese have from their side of the war.
- oldman
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Leadership Secrets of Atilla the Hun
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Thanks for the tips . Going to the library in the morning . Well have to see what they got from what you guy's have posted . Thx
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Here are two great books I couldn't put down.
first one is the Autobiography of Greg "Pappy" Boyington
The second is the Autobiography of the Highest scoring ace in WWII
Eric Harman, the Blonde Knight of Germany.
Great books!
(http://i62.tinypic.com/2hp3u4w.jpg)
(http://i61.tinypic.com/2ns9gew.jpg)
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"Dispatches". Michael Herr
"Rumor of War" Phillip Caputo
"Fields of Fire" James Webb
Those are my top three in that order. Others worth the time include books by Tim O'Brien. Tim Pages book detailing the correspondents and photographers killed is very worthwhile also.
My Dad (Ranger, FO 173rd AB Vietnam 66-67, 68-69) gave me Fields of Fire and said, "This was how it was..." Great book.
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"The Fantastic civil war" is a compilation book of alternate history/ fictional American civil war short stories.
Some are horrible, but some are... Fantastic.
One covers U.S. and world history if the Confederacy won. A few more involved time travel and advanced weapons in the civil war. The Wright flyer makes an appearance.
Fun book.
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"The Fantastic civil war" is a compilation book of alternate history/ fictional American civil war short stories.
Some are horrible, but some are... Fantastic.
One covers U.S. and world history if the Confederacy won. A few more involved time travel and advanced weapons in the civil war. The Wright flyer makes an appearance.
Fun book.
Something I can not read about . All my family was in that fight , lost most of them .
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My Dad (Ranger, FO 173rd AB Vietnam 66-67, 68-69) gave me Fields of Fire and said, "This was how it was..." Great book.
Cool! I need a good book from that era. One of my favorite Vietnam books is by a Huey pilot called
"Chickenhawk" by Robert Mason
http://www.amazon.com/Chickenhawk-Robert-Mason/dp/0143035711/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1428065503&sr=8-1&keywords=chickenhawk (http://www.amazon.com/Chickenhawk-Robert-Mason/dp/0143035711/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1428065503&sr=8-1&keywords=chickenhawk)
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Something I can not read about . All my family was in that fight , lost most of them .
I think just about everyone who has US ancestors going back that far has somebody KIA or DWRIA in the Civil War.
I've always been utterly baffled by southerners' obsession with the Civil War. Granted it was a brutal, very personal war, but even Europe seems to have mostly forgiven Germany for WWII, and that's still within living memory.
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I think just about everyone who has US ancestors going back that far has somebody KIA or DWRIA in the Civil War.
I've always been utterly baffled by southerners' obsession with the Civil War. Granted it was a brutal, very personal war, but even Europe seems to have mostly forgiven Germany for WWII, and that's still within living memory.
At a construction site near the River Nuess in NC, a local pointed to stretch of land across the river and said "that's where YOU killed a bunch of our boys back in the war."
Thought a time travel joke was in order but changed the subject instead.
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I think just about everyone who has US ancestors going back that far has somebody KIA or DWRIA in the Civil War.
I've always been utterly baffled by southerners' obsession with the Civil War. Granted it was a brutal, very personal war, but even Europe seems to have mostly forgiven Germany for WWII, and that's still within living memory.
Problem is in the south, it was very personal because your neighbor might be fighting for the union, while you are fighting for the confeds. After the war the southerners were literally treated as garbage; land was taken from them and people were still being killed after the war. "The south shall Rise again" won't likely ever happen, people here still believe the civil war was unjust.
Its funny however, people today really Don't even know what started the civil war, let alone care about it - it usually turns "Racist" real quick as the southerners tend to blame all the problems on the African Americans.
Reality is they simply have no clue of the history that unfolded that started the war. Believe it or not, most have a "deep" hatred for the government and the northerners, and I happen to live around these wack-o's.
Civil war like the Vietnam war is something I tend to shy away from in reading, things get to personal and there are many Vietnam Vets displeased with what happened, along with how they were treated. For me its simply to "political" to even bother trying to research it.
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Gunter Grass died last night...
www.theguardian.com/books/2015/apr/13/gunter-grass-german-nobel-laureate-dies-aged-87
Grass was born in the Free City of Danzig – now Gdansk – in 1927, “almost late enough”, as he said, to avoid involvement with the Nazi regime. Conscripted into the army in 1944 at the age of 16, he served as a tank gunner in the Waffen SS, bringing accusations of betrayal, hypocrisy and opportunism when he wrote about it in his 2006 autobiography, Peeling the Onion.
If you haven't read The Tin Drum, I recommend it; a really great WW2 novel.
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Germany was doomed to lose World War II from the start. Period.
The US had 30% of the worlds manufacturing capacity, even at the end of the Great Depression. It is an odd but too common fantasy to have the Nazis win the war. It would have never happened.
The US wasn't in the war in Europe for the first three years. Declaring war on America was one of Hitlers biggest blunders. Had he not, America would in all likelihood been well satisfied with going after Japan and ignoring the European war.
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The US wasn't in the war in Europe for the first three years. Declaring war on America was one of Hitlers biggest blunders. Had he not, America would in all likelihood been well satisfied with going after Japan and ignoring the European war.
Due to us supplying the British, Germany would have probably declared war on the US as we were clearly violating our neutrality by supplying the British. If you had read your history, we were already at a "low level" war with Germany as we were actively escorting convoys before war was declared and had already lost a few US ships on convoy duty.
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And Germany was actively trying not to engage US naval forces even if they were taking fire from USN ships, to the point of falsifying the logbooks of U-552 after the USS Reuben James incident. After Pearl Harbour there was a strong thirst of revenge among the American public and the Japanese indeed "had woken up a sleeping giant" but it was aimed at the Japanese not Germans. The deceleration of war by congress was against Japan not Germany. If Roosevelt wanted to declare war on Germany he might have had serious opposition. During that time there was a strong sentiment among the US public not to enter another war in Europe. By in effect declaring the North Atlantic an American lake Roosevelt could help the British convoys under the guise of protecting American shipping. He was skirting the very edge of what he was allowed to do by congress and before Pearl Harbor, a couple of congressmen were trying to have Roosevelt impeached. If the US were only fighting the Japanese Empire, supplies to the European Allies and the USSR would have dwindled.
FDR was trying a very straight forward copy of the game that brought America into WWI - provoke the Germans into provoking America into getting into a war with them. However, until December 1941 Germany did not want to play.
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Any of you men like reading about Vietnam , Seems I'm hooked on those mostly . Anyone know of a good read on this .
Legend - Eric Blehm
You'll thank me for reading it. :rock
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Legend - Eric Blehm
You'll thank me for reading it. :rock
Cool , well look for it today . Got to go by the library today anyway .
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FDR was trying a very straight forward copy of the game that brought America into WWI - provoke the Germans into provoking America into getting into a war with them. However, until December 1941 Germany did not want to play.
I agree on this point.
Alternate history is fun topic, especially with a few beers and rationale debaters.
But, in the end, the certainty of the failure of Fascism in WW2 is clear.
First and foremost is logistics. In population, production, and resources (especially oil,) the Axis were deficient. Amateurs talk of tactics. Professionals talk of logistics.
Second, people get hung up on the illusion of invincibility. Early victories were over weaker adversaries: Denmark, Norway, Belgium, Luxembourg, The Netherlands, France, Yugoslavia and Greece. France was not weaker on paper, but was not prepared or motivated to hold out. These early successes are as much about being ready and willing versus being able.
After other combatants mobilized, and figured out the blitzkrieg, it was a war of attrition the Fascists could not win, regardless of hair color and eye color.
Finally, the US was going to get into the war eventually. Conscription was signed into law in September 1940, after the fall of France. The USN escorting convoys as far as Iceland by April 1941. The fleet move to Pearl Harbor and movement of aircraft to the Pacific was a sign of things to come.
It is not just Germany and Japan. History is littered with those who doubted the American capacity for belligerence. From the outside, the US has often seen as a bunch of decadent hedonists. More foreign tourists need to come to Texas.
Some statistics, courtesy of www.world-war-2.info/statistics/
Oil production in tons:
Germany
1939 – 8 million
1942 – 7.7 million
1943 – 8.9 million
1944 – 6.4 million
US
1942 – 184 million
1943 – 200 million
1944 – 223 million
Total for WW2
Aircraft – World – 542,000
Aircraft – US – 283,000
52% US
Total for WW2
Vehicles – World – 5.1 million
Vehicles – US – 2.47 million
48% US
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But, in the end, the certainty of the failure of Fascism in WW2 is clear.
Heard this story somewhere. Pardon me if I paraphrase it:
In 1944 the air raid sirens sounded in Berlin. As by what was now habit, the locals quickly descended into the shelter. The doors were closed and secured. Soon, the explosions could be heard overhead. The occupants knew they would be there for hours.
To pass the time, a man who had been a geography professor found a map of the world, posted it on the shelter wall, and began a lecture.
"This large orange area is the United States of America," he said. "And these tan-colored shapes are Canada and England and Australia and the other Commonwealth nations."
The audience, many of whom had never had such an opportunity, watched closely.
"Finally," said the professor, "this enormous red area is the Soviet Union."
He paused.
"And here," he said, "this small green area, this is the Fatherland."
The explosions continued, muffled by the concrete. Inside the shelter there was absolute silence. Finally, an older man glanced around himself, looked at the professor, and in a soft and tentative voice said:
"Has anyone told the Fuehrer?"
- oldman
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Hitler's dream of a united Europe under a preeminent Germany rid of Jews has pretty much come to pass. Are you sure the good guys won?
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Hitler's dream of a united Europe under a preeminent Germany rid of Jews has pretty much come to pass. Are you sure the good guys won?
I don't think Hitler had a neutered, politically and militarily, Germany in mind. I would call your interpretation of current geopolitics interesting at best sir. Ya, the good guys won
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Rufus, the logistics capabilities of America is only relevant if America is in a war with Germany rather than being preoccupied with its own war with Japan. My whole argument is based on the possibility of Germany avoiding a war with America, at least until the British were starved into submission in 1942 (Churchill's greatest fear). ;)
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After the war the southerners were literally treated as garbage; land was taken from them and people were still being killed after the war.
I know this thread has probably marched on but I wanted to comment. The pain of the killing (on both sides) has subsided over time. The restoration process inflicted by the North after the war - administrated by Yankee political favorites, hacks, and opportunists - completely wrecked what was left of the economy of the South. The ramifications of that have transcended the initial pain from loss of life and can still be seen and felt in some economic sectors today. Most folks can get over the loss of a loved one over time...but loss of livelihood or land is something not easily forgiven, or forgotten.
Even today, some folks look suspiciously at northern investment capital moving south. They can perceive it as another round of Carpetbagging.
Civil War discussions by Yankees visiting the south most likely won't end well.
:azn:
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I know this thread has probably marched on but I wanted to comment. The pain of the killing (on both sides) has subsided over time. The restoration process inflicted by the North after the war - administrated by Yankee political favorites, hacks, and opportunists - completely wrecked what was left of the economy of the South. The ramifications of that have transcended the initial pain from loss of life and can still be seen and felt in some economic sectors today. Most folks can get over the loss of a loved one over time...but loss of livelihood or land is something not easily forgiven, or forgotten.
Even today, some folks look suspiciously at northern investment capital moving south. They can perceive it as another round of Carpetbagging.
Civil War discussions by Yankees visiting the south most likely won't end well.
:azn:
Interesting. Give some examples of recent investment capital being frowned upon that wasn't requested by a Southern developer or Southern sponsor please. I would love to see the actual evidence of this so many years post-war.
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Interesting. Give some examples of recent investment capital being frowned upon that wasn't requested by a Southern developer or Southern sponsor please. I would love to see the actual evidence of this so many years post-war.
WAPOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! as in you... :ahand
I can just hear it now...
(Business Owner)"We don't want no money invested in our business from north of the Mason-Dixon line.
(CFO) " Where is that line?"
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I described a distrust of motive in the minds of some southerners that continues today. It is a perception, not a lawsuit or a headline in the WSJ. I thought I made that very clear. The example that I was responding to, "thats where you yankees..." also depicted an emotional situation based on perceptions of some southerners.
Here's one you can ponder however...http://amarillo.com/stories/2004/07/22/bus_dropbar.shtml#.VTBGL5MhN6I (http://amarillo.com/stories/2004/07/22/bus_dropbar.shtml#.VTBGL5MhN6I)
This seems a small thing, unless you are Mr. Bode or his patrons in LaVernia, Texas, but when you lay it alongside the wisps of collective memory of the Restoration it can rankle some folks. Like me.
There's no need to correct my geography. Texas Roadhouse is a Kentucky-based brand, but it's a helluva lot closer to Cincinnati than it is to Austin. The Texas Roadhouse restaurant on Hwy 281 North in my hometown folded. I guess they suck. Nobody I know ever bothered to go there. ;)
I know many people in Texas and in North Carolina who prefer to do business with local financial institutions rather than 'Yankee Banks' who have tarnished their reputations through manipulation and greed in the last 10 years (federal bailouts?). These are the same banks that peddle credit cards to unemployed underclassmen even on the sacred ground in Norman and at other universities across the south. If that isn't a modern manifestation of exploitation I don't know what would pass muster.
My point was about some lingering attitudes of the 'little guys' I know and was not intended to hurt feelings. Especially the feelings of Zoney who's known to be sensitive and it seems his cartoon self-depiction is weeping for some reason.
I concede only that it was stupid of me to comment on this BBS.
:salute
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MERCA!!!!!
Off topic of the book club now...this WAS an interesting thread. now its a different thread :(
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the wisps of collective memory of the Restoration
And this, my friend Ratsy, is where I find I have missed the train. You have no memory of Reconstruction (unless you're really talking about the Restoration, and I GUARANTEE you have no memory of that!). I venture to guess that no one you know has memory of Reconstruction, because Reconstruction ended long before anyone alive today was born. So the "collective memory" is based on things long gone. Getting angry, or sad, or even happy, about things that happened before you were born is just...so...European....
- oldman
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Just started this book....
http://www.amazon.com/Kaia-Heroine-1944-Warsaw-Rising/dp/0739190539/ref=sr_1_16?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1429276393&sr=1-16&keywords=kaia (http://www.amazon.com/Kaia-Heroine-1944-Warsaw-Rising/dp/0739190539/ref=sr_1_16?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1429276393&sr=1-16&keywords=kaia)
I find it very interesting because it's not from the perspective from a trained solder. So far, it's a very easy read and should have it done by the weekend.
I have also just finished The Eagle Unbowed by Halik Kochanski. This was a fantastic book! I cannot begin to describe the volumes of information that the history books got wrong. If a person of Polish descent or anyone interested in the history of Poland during WW2, ever wanted to read a single book, this would be their "go to" book. Can be a little tough on some parts (I struggled with the politics during my reading), but still worth the time.
http://www.amazon.com/Eagle-Unbowed-Poland-Poles-Second/dp/0674284003/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1429276521&sr=1-1&keywords=the+eagle+unbowed (http://www.amazon.com/Eagle-Unbowed-Poland-Poles-Second/dp/0674284003/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1429276521&sr=1-1&keywords=the+eagle+unbowed)
I have a few more on my list this summer. Will post more when I get to them.
Obie
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I described a distrust of motive in the minds of some southerners that continues today. It is a perception, not a lawsuit or a headline in the WSJ. I thought I made that very clear. The example that I was responding to, "thats where you yankees..." also depicted an emotional situation based on perceptions of some southerners.
Here's one you can ponder however...http://amarillo.com/stories/2004/07/22/bus_dropbar.shtml#.VTBGL5MhN6I (http://amarillo.com/stories/2004/07/22/bus_dropbar.shtml#.VTBGL5MhN6I)
This seems a small thing, unless you are Mr. Bode or his patrons in LaVernia, Texas, but when you lay it alongside the wisps of collective memory of the Restoration it can rankle some folks. Like me.
There's no need to correct my geography. Texas Roadhouse is a Kentucky-based brand, but it's a helluva lot closer to Cincinnati than it is to Austin. The Texas Roadhouse restaurant on Hwy 281 North in my hometown folded. I guess they suck. Nobody I know ever bothered to go there. ;)
I know many people in Texas and in North Carolina who prefer to do business with local financial institutions rather than 'Yankee Banks' who have tarnished their reputations through manipulation and greed in the last 10 years (federal bailouts?). These are the same banks that peddle credit cards to unemployed underclassmen even on the sacred ground in Norman and at other universities across the south. If that isn't a modern manifestation of exploitation I don't know what would pass muster.
My point was about some lingering attitudes of the 'little guys' I know and was not intended to hurt feelings. Especially the feelings of Zoney who's known to be sensitive and it seems his cartoon self-depiction is weeping for some reason.
I concede only that it was stupid of me to comment on this BBS.
:salute
And my point is that people who hold 120 year grudge and aren't actually 120 years old need more things to occupy their time.
1. Kentucky doesn't know as much about steaks as Texas...period.
2. There are no Yankee banks. Anyone with any knowledge of banking and finance know that all of the large banks are conglomerations of buyouts and takeovers that involve northern and southern banks 50 times over.
3. Local banking vs big banking is not a southern thing. It's a small-town thing.
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WAPOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! as in you... :ahand
I can just hear it now...
(Business Owner)"We don't want no money invested in our business from north of the Mason-Dixon Line unless our loan admin went to Miss State!!!
(CFO) Hey, I went to South Carolina for undergrad and got a Citibank visa to pay for mah MBA at Clemson. Will that work???? Yeehaww
Fixed
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Just picked up another book about the Polish Cavalry in WW2. Last of the War Horses by General K.S. Rudnicki. It looks interesting and I'm looking forward to this one.
http://www.derekcrowe.com/post.aspx?id=79 (http://www.derekcrowe.com/post.aspx?id=79)
obie
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I have not seen these books mentioned.
Brute Force: Allied Strategy and Tactics in the Second World War
Author is John Ellis
For anyone that has any questions about how much chance the Axis ever had in that war once the allies were willing to fight.
And
The First Team: Pacific Naval Air Combat from Pearl Harbor to Midway
The First Team and the Guadalcanal Campaign: Naval Fighter Combat from August to November 1942
Both by John Lundstrom.
Amazing these books have not been listed, maybe the best books about WW2 air combat. And a very poorly understood component of it.
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Good lord, it's Pongo! Where you been, dude?
- oldman
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I'll 2nd the recommendation of "Nanette", my favorite WW2 book by far.
I liked that one, too. It's not my favorite WWII book, but a great one, with some amazing writing in it at times, such as this about New Guinea:
"The heat solid and palpable, smells rich enough to grow crops, the colors so sharp and pure they make your eyes wince. The sun has an undiffused brilliance and when it touches something green, like a leaf, it isn't your everyday humdrum leaf-green. It's nature's finest G*dd*mn green and it socks you right in the eyeball."
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I'm not sure if anyone mentioned this one yet or not:
"With the Old Breed," by Sledge
It is so good that, if a person were to read only one war book in his entire life, I'd recommend that to be the one.
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I have with the old breed. I thought I had mentioned it :huh
but in any case Ill second your reference!
Roll me over is a good one too.