Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Sundowner on March 16, 2008, 10:00:00 PM
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This just in from the "Making a list, checking it twice. Gonna find out who's naughty and nice." department.
Regards,
Sun
http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2008/mar/16/youthjustice.children
"Primary school children should be eligible for the DNA database if they exhibit behavior indicating they may become criminals in later life, according to Britain's most senior police forensics expert.
Gary Pugh, director of forensic sciences at Scotland Yard and the new DNA spokesman for the Association of Chief Police Officers (Acpo), said a debate was needed on how far Britain should go in identifying potential offenders, given that some experts believe it is possible to identify future offending traits in children as young as five.
'If we have a primary means of identifying people before they offend, then in the long-term the benefits of targeting younger people are extremely large,' said Pugh. 'You could argue the younger the better. Criminologists say some people will grow out of crime; others won't. We have to find who are possibly going to be the biggest threat to society......'
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What in hell do they think they are going to do with those kids they decide are genetically inclined to be a criminal? Why bother with a trial when you can incarcerate before an offense has even been committed. :rolleyes:
This is just freaking plain scary. It's not a step in the direction of a Police State. The step was way back there, this is simply confirmation that a de facto police state already exists.
"Last week it emerged that the number of 10 to 18-year-olds placed on the DNA database after being arrested will have reached around 1.5 million this time next year. Since 2004 police have had the power to take DNA samples from anyone over the age of 10 who is arrested, regardless of whether they are later charged, convicted, or found to be innocent."
I suppose next will be a screening to determine if some folks should be allowed to maintain their fertility based on a potential to pass on a criminal gene. :huh
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so precrime is coming.
the worst type of criminals are the ones coming up with and pushing stuff like this.
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What in hell do they think they are going to do with those kids they decide are genetically inclined to be a criminal? Why bother with a trial when you can incarcerate before an offense has even been committed. :rolleyes:
My guess would be another reason to 'medicate' at an earlier and earlier age.
The next logical step is to identify anti-social tendencies prior to birth. Of course the answer to that problem is simple...terminate.
May God forgive us.
Regards,
Sun
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"We have to find who are possibly going to be the biggest threat to society" Gary Pugh
top of that list as public enemy number one, would be Gary Pugh.
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The UK seems to be going faster towards the Orwell than the USA
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2008/mar/16/uksecurity.terrorism
Millions of commuters could have their private movements around cities secretly monitored under new counter-terrorism powers being sought by the security services.
Records of journeys made by people using smart cards that allow 17 million Britons to travel by underground, bus and train with a single swipe at the ticket barrier are among a welter of private information held by the state to which MI5 and police counter-terrorism officers want access in order to help identify patterns of suspicious behaviour
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Scary indeed!
In the movie Gattaca, people who had genetic markers that may indicate future heart disease or cancer were unable to obtain decent jobs.
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0119177/ (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0119177/)
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Also sounds like an excuse for more social programs.
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Scary indeed!
In the movie Gattaca, people who had genetic markers that may indicate future heart disease or cancer were unable to obtain decent jobs.
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0119177/ (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0119177/)
I've seen the movie. It's pretty nice, but scary and gets scarier year by year.
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gonna need a lot of money to fund that agency but.. I guess it will be worth it.... if it saves even one child... oh wait.. they want to put children on drugs and in prison...
nevermind.
lazs
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we already have precrime laws, people are punished for what might happen.
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we already have precrime laws, people are punished for what might happen.
But if we expand on that we will be a lot safer.
shamus
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Hmm....preemptive justice.
The comic wag was right....There is NO INTELLIGENT LIFE on this planet.
Let me tole ya....having worked in the juvenile system for more than three years now, the benefits of behavior controlling medication are vastly overrated. Most of the kids that come to my classroom after receiving their meds shortly after breakfast are unable to function properly. They ARE calm...if you can call being comatose and drooling on the desk CALM.
And what fun it is when the doc screws up their prescription. We recently had to de-tox a kid who had been taking a larger dose of his medication than he was supposed to. He was addicted. During the drying out period, his hands shook and the corners of his mouth twitched.
No thanks. We don't need any more behavior modification...preemptive, drug, or otherwise...in the field of child behavioral management.
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Didn't Tom Cruise make a movie about something similar?
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shukins.. does anyone think that drugging children is a good idea or even.. not harmful to their social and physical health?
It seems to me to be criminal.. worse than criminal...
lazs
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Lasz, it's considered justifiable depending on the nature of their "criminal offense." The more violent the crime, even if no one was hurt, marks the kid for psychological evaluation. After extensive medical and psychological testing, a determination is made as to whether or not the child could benefit from behavior altering medication. Sometimes such medication is mandated by the court, after the kids' psychological analysis has been presented to the judge.
In moderation, such medication can be beneficial. But, what most of these kids need, or rather needed, was a belt laid across their rear ends when they were much younger. Much of their anti-social behavior is simply a tool that they use to get what they want. I've seen them blow up over minor issues one minute, and when they get what they want, they become perfectly calm.
Sure, there are a few psychopaths that no amount of medication or counseling will help. We've had a few of them leave our camp and go out into society and commit murder....sometimes to to gain a rep.
There isn't much medication can do about that.
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im not even gonna get in on this.
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Isnt anyone over there even complaining about this?
Then again. shouldnt say too much.
Our sheep arent a whole lot better
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Welcome to my world - my country (which I happen to love, deeply) is being screwed over big time by our current government (if this shambles can be called that). The most worrying thing is - the alternatives are just as dire - totally incompetent, self seeking, greedy, grabbing useless individuals.
My apologies if that came over as a rant, but its one of the things that is driving me out of this country.
Wurzel
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I have an opinion on this issue.
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Wow, how did the UK government already get DNA samples from 4.5 million people? That is over 7% of the UK's total population!!
If the government can take your DNA from you, what is there that they CANNOT take from you??
No one is going to take my DNA, or my guns, from me.
Some day in the future I may need to find a place to bury my guns and ammo, and then fake a burglary, if today's Supreme Court case goes poorly.
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They just make a copy of your DNA, they dont take it from you ;)
Im all for taking the DNA of anyone who has been convicted of a crime. Unless you have done so, I dont see a reason to take it. I would not object to giving the police a copy of mine tho, as i have nothing to hide.
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I really wish people would wake up and realize what is happening to peoples personal God given rights.
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They just make a copy of your DNA, they dont take it from you ;)
Im all for taking the DNA of anyone who has been convicted of a crime. Unless you have done so, I dont see a reason to take it. I would not object to giving the police a copy of mine tho, as i have nothing to hide.
If you comply and allow the government to do that, then they could start making cloned copies of you.
Do you want thousands of Nilsens walking around all over the earth???
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If you comply and allow the government to do that, then they could start making cloned copies of you.
Do you want thousands of Nilsens walking around all over the earth???
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1 Im not paranoid so if criminals gets their DNA taken then im just gonna sit back and let it happen.
2 I think the world would be a better place with thousands of Nilsens walking around. ;)
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http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2008/mar/16/youthjustice.children
....this is one of the most disturbing things I've seen...the government will eventually make excuses to use DNA markers for all sorts of things, and a child's life will be preprogrammed depending on what some nutjob bureaucrat decides to do with the information...people need to wake up to this now... :mad:
Joker
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'England prevails!'
That's a slippery slope if I ever saw one... Scary
<edit_hijack>W00t I have a gold member! Gonna call the wife to tell her the good news :devil</edit_hijack>
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shukins.. thank you for your answer.. I guess I was wanting to know what you thought tho.. I kinda get that you think it should have been taken care of in a more conventional (old fashioned) way long before it got that far?
I would agree but having done most drugs... I really don't see how they are a great idea.. it is like some page out of a science fiction book of the 60's.
I am not sure that covering the sins of society with drugs is a good idea. This got a little off the DNA trail except that.. if you are gonna take DNA from one.. it should be from all of em..
lazs
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Didn't Tom Cruise make a movie about something similar?
Yep, "Minority Report." Came out around 2003 I think.
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Isnt anyone over there even complaining about this?
Not really. You do understand that this is one man's opinion? That for this to happen would require a new act of parliament, and that no government would touch this with a barge pole?
Ain't going to happen.
Welcome to my world - my country (which I happen to love, deeply) is being screwed over big time by our current government (if this shambles can be called that). The most worrying thing is - the alternatives are just as dire - totally incompetent, self seeking, greedy, grabbing useless individuals.
You didn't happen to vote for Nu Labour, did you? The alternatives (the Conservatives) are much better, they have a record of applying common sense, rather than doctrine, to government. Not perfect, but one of the better western political parties.
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Lasz, I would agree that medication needs to be the solution of last resort, at least for most kids. However, physiologically, some of these kids are so wired, hyper, or high octane, that they literally cannot sit still. Even when they're sitting down they vibrate...with the whites of their eyes showing all around. (Bit of exaggeration there.)
So, in those particular cases, they cannot "calm down" on their own. In such event, medication is often the only option. They literally cannot function without it.
I don't like it....but that is reality. Properly prescribed, there seem to be few harmful side effects. The kids are more normal and reasonable with it.
Regards, Shuckins
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thats rediculous. just a first step in creating an easier to control populace. Honestly you need that edge on humanity, other wise we would stagnate
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I really wish people would wake up and realize what is happening to peoples personal God given rights.
thats just it uptown, GOD's givin right, is the issue people, just dont believe in GOD any more, or they are to busy blaming GOD for human actions...
damm i said i wassnt gonna partake...
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any body who tries to tell me my kids need drugs HAHA, that will be a day they will never forget...
all kids are rambuctios thats the way kids are sapposed to be its up to us parents to teach them how to act, and one good prettythang whooping straitins em out, and if you are one of those that think you shouldnt spank your kids, to put it plainly your an idiot...trust me i have 6 kids and they are someof the best behaved kids in there school, and my son can barely sit still . try and tell me he needs to be on drugs, drugging children that is the stupidest thing ever... un believable that people are ok with this but then again thats what our society has become...
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This is like chaos theory. One man opines in England, a dozen others wring their hands, thousands of miles away on another continent.
A call for open discussion is healthy. It's freedom of speech. It's not even a party policy or even a suggestion of a party policy, nevermind law.
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any body who tries to tell me my kids need drugs HAHA, that will be a day they will never forget...
all kids are rambuctios thats the way kids are sapposed to be its up to us parents to teach them how to act, and one good emily whooping straitins em out, and if you are one of those that think you shouldnt spank your kids, to put it plainly your an idiot...trust me i have 6 kids and they are someof the best behaved kids in there school, and my son can barely sit still . try and tell me he needs to be on drugs, drugging children that is the stupidest thing ever... un believable that people are ok with this but then again thats what our society has become...
I guess im an idiot then, but i belive that if you have to spank your kids to get them to behave then im not the idiot thats for sure. But i do agree with you that its the parents who has to teach them.
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This is like chaos theory. One man opines in England, a dozen others wring their hands, thousands of miles away on another continent.
A call for open discussion is healthy. It's freedom of speech. It's not even a party policy or even a suggestion of a party policy, nevermind law.
That would make sense if the individual that is proposing the process was a private citizen. In this case he has a very official position and another position where he may just have considerable sway in making public policy.
"Gary Pugh, director of forensic sciences at Scotland Yard and the new DNA spokesman for the Association of Chief Police Officers (Acpo), "
Had his counterpart in the US made that statement he would be inundated with demands for his resignation.
That was not someone merely opining for speculation it was someone in a position of trust speaking about a massive violation of the rule of law.
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shukins... I will defer to your vastly superior experience with kids. I am going by mine of almost half a century ago.. what has changed? have we evolved in some terrible way that now we have legions of these mutants?
lazs
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I guess im an idiot then, but i belive that if you have to spank your kids to get them to behave then im not the idiot thats for sure. But i do agree with you that its the parents who has to teach them.
you obviously have no kids or wait 1 or 2 at most.
"spare the rod spoil the child..."
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Oh my
I have one, but that has nothing to do with it.
You need to spank them to get them to listen?
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Nilsen,
Are you familiar with the system of positive and negative rewards?
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Nashwan, nope, didnt vote for NuLabour - never will vote for socialists , ever ever ever.
Whilst I hope your right about the Conservatives, I'm a touch more than cynical about all the MP's in our country. Maybe its because of the amount of largesse they grant themselves in the form of "expense claims" - which has just come to light.
Wurzel
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Lasz, we may have more of these types of kids than we did when you and I were little shavers. If there are, from what I have seen, many of them are the way that they are because of parental drug abuse, especially by the mother when she was pregnant with them. Also, there is more of an organized attempt by school, courts, and psychologists to identify them than there has been in the past.
I've read a couple hundred psychological and medical profiles on juvenile delinquents incarcerated at the unit where I work. Certainly our resident population is atypical, when compared to the population of kids in a public school. We have the incorrigibles who no one can seem to do anything with, or who have hung with the wrong crowd and been busted. Reading about their dysfunctional home environments will make the hair stand up on your necks. Despite the differences in race, age, or social settings that they came from, many of them have one thing in common: a history of hyperactivity diagnosed as HD or ADHD. Almost without fail, those that have been diagnosed with one of those two conditions have had medication prescribed to control the hyperactivity or violent mood swings.
Physiological causes of those conditions are especially hard to treat: medication tends to be the most used method of bringing them under control.
I don't like it, but for many of them there seems to be little choice.
As for DNA programming, that's an idea straight out of the depths of Hell....at least as far as I'm concerned.
Regards, Shuckins
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Nilsen,
Are you familiar with the system of positive and negative rewards?
yes
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shukins.. you may be right.. we may have created a generation of mutant but I hope not.. I also think the evidence points more to the same sort of thing that made every other kid need a tonsilectomy in my day.
I know a few parents who never did drugs who have been told their (normal boy to me) kid had add and needs to be drugged.
As for DNA profiling.... I ask everyone... how is that good but pulling over a car load of gang bandanna wearing mexicans or negros somehow "profiling" and.. evil? How is pulling the young arab looking guy out of line at the airport and searching him bad?
lazs
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yes
Good. In that case you might want to restructure your "argument" in that vein rather than one based on a hearing test. Hearing (listening) and complying with that which was stated, and heard, as an instruction are two different things.
Children and their behavior are not uniform even within the same family of siblings. What may work with one (verbal instruction and correction) may not work at all with another sibling.