Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Chairboy on March 19, 2008, 02:44:08 PM
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http://www.reason.com/news/show/125538.html
No-knock warrant: Check
Police using SWAT tactics: Check
No identification as police: Check
War on drugs: Check
A bad warrant is generated, there's no evidence of investigation ahead of time (it's all based on a confidential informant who appears to have burglarized the house 3 days earlier). They kick down his door in the middle of the night, so he shoots. Kills the first person, is taken down by the rest who then identify themselves as police. Now he's under arrest for murder and may be facing the death penalty.
Cav58d, is this justice?
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Well, at least he's got a decent chance of getting that small bit of weed excluded from evidence.
Somebody once said that the only difference between cops and criminals is that they operate on different sides of the law. The abusive, above-the-law attitude being the common trait between these seemingly opposed groups.
Too harsh, perhaps, but stories like this lend credibility to the notion.
Of course, we've yet to hear the other side of the story....
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We did hear the other side of the story. The prosecuting attorney is quoted several times in the story.
However, all testimony and evidence shows that he's wrong. I say imprison them all, both the raiding policeman, and the district attorney.
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We did hear the other side of the story. The prosecuting attorney is quoted several times in the story.
However, all testimony and evidence shows that he's wrong. I say imprison them all, both the raiding policeman, and the district attorney.
I'd like to hear from the cops themselves, with details, recounting both where they got the information and the reasoning behind their course of action.
However, I like your idea of imprisoning the DA. General population.
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This incident happened right up the road from my ex wifes house i.e. my old house :mad: It was real big on the local news for about a day and a half when they were reporting it as a drug bust and an officer was killed. Once the true story started coming out about the raid and what really happened, all of a sudden it's not being reported on anymore by the local news.
Plain fact is those cops screwed up. Everyone of them should be charged with felony breaking and entry, then fired for not conducting a proper investigation about the "informants" claim, plus the dept needs to buy the guy a new door and pay all his back wages he's loosing for being in jail, the judge that signed the warrant should be disbarred and charged with reckless endagerment for signing a no knock warrant without having an investigation report from the police deptment in front of him to justify it, and the prosecuter just needs his arse beaten for even trying to go forward with this one.
I would have done the same thing that guy did.
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I think majority of firearm owners would fire at intruder.
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Yet another example of why no knock raids are a bad idea.
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I think majority of firearm owners would fire at intruder.
When I stayed home a week alone for the first time, I kept my rifle loaded and always within an arms reach. Along with that, my collection of combat knives, a tactical vest, and a loaded USP .45. Call me paranoid, but I like the feeling of security :)
Anyone through that door that didn't look familiar would've be hurt...bad...
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When I stayed home a week alone for the first time, I kept my rifle loaded and always within an arms reach. Along with that, my collection of combat knives, a tactical vest, and a loaded USP .45. Call me paranoid, but I like the feeling of security :)
Anyone through that door that didn't look familiar would've be hurt...bad...
Tonight on The Movie Channel "Serenity is Still My Name"
:lol
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When I stayed home a week alone for the first time, I kept my rifle loaded and always within an arms reach. Along with that, my collection of combat knives, a tactical vest, and a loaded USP .45. Call me paranoid, but I like the feeling of security :)
Anyone through that door that didn't look familiar would've be hurt...bad...
Just remember, if anybody unfamiliar came through the door, NEVER shoot them in the cheek. It's all bone in there.
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Tonight on The Movie Channel "Serenity is Still My Name"
:lol
Is Clint Eastwood playing the part of Serenity?
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Nice shooting on the part of the citizen. :aok
is there a legal defense fund to donate to for this guy?
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Nice shooting on the part of the citizen. :aok
is there a legal defense fund to donate to for this guy?
I'm 14 :) Boy oh boy I'd love to get an AR-15 and plenty of ammo :t
For, uhm, home defense of course.
*cough*
:noid
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I'm 14 :) Boy oh boy I'd love to get an AR-15 and plenty of ammo :t
For, uhm, home defense of course.
*cough*
:noid
Why would you quote Pooh's post prior to making the above statement?
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Nice shooting on the part of the citizen. :aok
is there a legal defense fund to donate to for this guy?
That's about as tasteless a statement as I've heard on here.
"Detective Jarrod Shivers was shot and killed while attempting to serve a narcotics search warrant at a home on Redstart Avenue at approximately 8:35 pm.
Detective Shivers was attempting to force entry into the home when the suspect inside fired one shot through the front door. The round struck Detective Shivers, fatally wounding him. The man then barricaded himself inside the home before being taken into custody and charged with murder.
Detective Shivers was a US Navy veteran. He had served with the Chesapeake Police Department for 8 years and was assigned to the Special Investigations Section. He is survived by his wife, son, and two daughters."
34 years old, survived by his wife and three kids, and you say "nice shot?" How bout saying it's a tragedy we lost a man who dedicated his life to law enforcement, and he died doing his absolute level best to protect and serve? I don't care if the perp was a pot grower or whatever, whenever we lose a police officer in the line of duty we lose just a bit of what is supposed to make us a civilized nation.
Really, Pooh- that was about as insensitive and inappropiate a comment as I've heard here. To rejoice in the death of a peace officer makes me want to agree with Eagl concerning the ignore list- and believe me, you have to be pretty gross for me to want to ignore you- if you were a video your title would be "two girls, one cup."
Un-friggin-believable.
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His absolute level best? Are you kidding?
He and his armed cohorts illegally broke into the guy's house. Badges or not, the moment they did that, they became nothing more than the common thugs that they're supposed to be combatting.
Rejoicing in his death may have taken it a step too far, but if this sort of behavior characterizes 'a bit of what makes us a civilized nation', then you should probably lay off whatever it is they've got you on.
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police should not be breaking down doors in the middle of the night, they should stick to what they do best, harass motorists.
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Let's take a closer look at this shall we Airhead?
This pretty much sums up what the police did wrong.
A bad warrant is generated, there's no evidence of investigation ahead of time (it's all based on a confidential informant who appears to have burglarized the house 3 days earlier). They kick down his door in the middle of the night, so he shoots. Kills the first person, is taken down by the rest who then identify themselves as police. Now he's under arrest for murder and may be facing the death penalty.
The mans house was burglarized 3 days prior to a no knock raid on his home. Police say there were a dozen *or more* officers involved in the raid. (They don't know exactly how many?) Neighbors who witnessed events dispute this, they say there were only 2 initially and the rest showed up after the first one was shot.
This man had every right to defend his home. It is an unfortunate tragedy that the officer died. Perhaps if they had done their jobs in a more complete and professional manner he would still be alive.
To many people have died during no knock raids, this time it happened to be a police officer and the shooter is now facing first degree murder charges and a possible death sentence. What about the second and third paragraphs below? An innocent civilian gunned down in his own home. Why is the officer not also facing first degree murder charges? Whats good for the goose is certainly good for the gander is it not?
What's clear, though, is that Chesepeake police conducted a raid on a man with no prior criminal record. Even if their informant had been correct, Frederick was at worst suspected of growing marijuana plants in his garage. There was no indication he was a violent man—that it was necessary to take down his door after nightfall.
The raid in Chesapeake bears a striking resemblance to another that ended in a fatality. Last week, New Hanover County, N.C., agreed to pay $4.25 million to the parents of college student Peyton Strickland, who was killed when a deputy participating in a raid mistook the sound of a SWAT battering ram for a gunshot, and fired through the door as Strickland came to answer it.
In the case where a citizen mistakenly (and allegedly) shot through his door at a raiding police officer, the citizen is facing a murder charge; in the case where a raiding police officer mistakenly shot through a door and killed a citizen, there were no criminal charges.
Over the last quarter century, we've seen an astonishing rise in paramilitary police tactics by police departments across America. Peter Kraksa, professor of criminology at the University of Eastern Kentucky, ran a 20-year survey of SWAT team deployments and determined that they have increased 1,500 percent since the early 1980s—mostly to serve nonviolent drug warrants.
This is dangerous, senseless overkill. The margin of error is too thin, and the potential for tragedy too high to use these tactics unless they are in response to an already violent situation (think bank robberies, school shootings or hostage-takings). Breaking down doors to bust drug offenders creates violent situations; it doesn't defuse them.
Shivers' death is only the most recent example. And Ryan Frederick is merely the latest citizen to be put in the impossible position of being awakened from sleep, then having to determine in a matter of seconds if the men breaking into his home are police or criminal intruders.
No knock raids need to stop. Now.
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Here's another case Airhead. Two sheriff's deputies try to serve civil papers on a guy but they fail to check to see if the papers had already been served. They had, 5 days prior.
http://www.heraldtribune.com/article/20070518/NEWS/705180360&SearchID=73312117852650
Not one, but TWO judges conclude that the deputies were in the wrong and still the deputies insist they were in the right.
http://www.heraldtribune.com/article/20070316/COLUMNIST36/703160622&SearchID=73312117852650
Internal investigation concludes:
I just checked and found that, over the summer, internal affairs investigators also determined that the deputies acted unlawfully. Sheriff Bill Balkwill first ordered four-week suspensions, but a review board decided one week was appropriate.
The findings also required training on the constitutional rights that make it illegal for police to enter a home or make an arrest without probable cause or a warrant.
http://www.heraldtribune.com/article/20071106/COLUMNIST36/711060664&SearchID=73312117852650
The police are human also, they make mistakes just like we do. In this thread we have two cases of the police making mistakes, one of them had very tragic consequences. In the other the two sheriff's deputies were apparently tasered and physically beaten.
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I don't feel bad for the officer killed at all. If you do something stupid to get yourself killed then I am not about to shed a tear for you. Kicking someones door in, in the middle of the night with a no-knock warrant is that something stupid.
Just because someone is sworn in and wears a shinny piece of metal, does not mean said person is above the law. It is very clear what happened here. You have two overzealous detectives, moving on the word of an informant, waking a Judge up to get a warrant signed, without investigating their informants claim properly.
They moved on their warrant, alone, in the middle of the night, on a fella who is already on edge since is place was burglarized a few days earlier. Rather than making a knock warrant with some uniforms as back up, they decided to make a no-knock warrant alone. A stupid thing to do, valid warrant or not.
The end result is what you have happening here. It is the same thing that happened in Atlanta with that old lady. Except in that case an innocent civilian ended up dead for simply defending their self and their property from who they saw as intruders in the night.
While I won't go as far as to say, "good job Joe citizen" in this case, I also wont feel bad the officer was killed. The way I see it, him and his partner made a chain of poor choices that night. The end result ended up in someone being killed and another persons life now in jeopardy. Now the surviving officer needs to cowboy up and do the right thing here. So that another life is not taken, because of a stupid choice made by him and his partner.
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I'm 14 :) Boy oh boy I'd love to get an AR-15 and plenty of ammo :t
For, uhm, home defense of course.
*cough*
:noid
At least you have your age as an exuse for talking like a fool. Whats Pooh21s exuse?
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I can think of very few reasons a no knock warrant should ever be issued; a local drug bust is not one of them. It was a bad decision by the law enforcement and it is unfortunante it proved fatal. With the facts we have read, there is no jury in this country that will convict the civillian for the murder of the law officer.
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Now the surviving officer needs to cowboy up and do the right thing here. So that another life is not taken, because of a stupid choice made by him and his partner.
Would be nice if that did happen, but it won't.
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much as I respect the police and feel for the job they have to do...
They really are responsible at this point to refuse to break down doors and enter in the middle of the night.. they need to say "no mas" to a lot of this. "just following orders".. no matter how good a guy the cop is may not be the best defense at some point.
Why do they break in during the wee hours of the morning anyway? the only people who sleep at those hours are law abiding citizens.. if you wanted to catch crooks napping it would be at 1000 or noon.... could it be that they don't want citizens to see what they are doing?
lazs
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http://www.reason.com/news/show/125538.html
No-knock warrant: Check
Police using SWAT tactics: Check
No identification as police: Check
War on drugs: Check
A bad warrant is generated, there's no evidence of investigation ahead of time (it's all based on a confidential informant who appears to have burglarized the house 3 days earlier). They kick down his door in the middle of the night, so he shoots. Kills the first person, is taken down by the rest who then identify themselves as police. Now he's under arrest for murder and may be facing the death penalty.
Cav58d, is this justice?
Internet cop expert who believes leftwing opinion rag cause its saying what he wants to hear : CHECK!
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There will be more of these incidents as time goes by. The 4th should mean something. At a minimum, it's not too much to ask that the intended target be verified as a true, serious lawbreaker and that the cops at least go to the correct address.
I wonder if they can afford a GPS along with all the ninja gear?
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Internet cop expert who believes leftwing opinion rag cause its saying what he wants to hear : CHECK!
I live where this happened and what that left wing rag said is pretty much spot on in this case.
"POP" there goes your bubble!!!!
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34 years old, survived by his wife and three kids, and you say "nice shot?" How bout saying it's a tragedy we lost a man who dedicated his life to law enforcement, and he died doing his absolute level best to protect and serve? I don't care if the perp was a pot grower or whatever, whenever we lose a police officer in the line of duty we lose just a bit of what is supposed to make us a civilized nation.
Really, Pooh- that was about as insensitive and inappropiate a comment as I've heard here. To rejoice in the death of a peace officer makes me want to agree with Eagl concerning the ignore list- and believe me, you have to be pretty gross for me to want to ignore you- if you were a video your title would be "two girls, one cup."
Un-friggin-believable.
Of course its a tragedy when a police officer loses his life in the line of duty. However, the problem is the people who are supposed to be enforcing the laws are behaving like criminals to do so. The questions that come to mind: 1. Why a no-knock? 2. Why at night? 3. Why no undercover investigation before executing the warrant? The truth is the cops blew it, didn't do their homework, and one of them paid the ultimate price.
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Rich46yo, are you able to make a statement about your opinion on what happened here?
I went on the record, and my opinion is up for scrutiny. You made a pithy saying, but haven't explicitly stated an opinion one way or the other.
Do you feel strong enough about your convictions to do so, or would you rather hide in the shady area of indecision to protect yourself from being disagreed with? I know it might be scary, but I'm sure you can handle it.
I look forward to hearing your thoughts.
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CI's are valuable to an investigation, but they are for the most part untrustworthy lairs and anything they say must be confirmed.
Relying on one as the sole reason for a warrant is sloppy police work and sloppy does get people killed.
shamus
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The officer was shot through the front door? The guy is going to jail.
A similar situation occured in Oregon where cops broke into a motorcycle gang's "headquarters" with a no knock warrant. One of the gang shot the first officer to enter the home before police identified themselves and they put the guns down. No charges were pressed as it was viewed as self-defense. But... there was no "baracading" and no "shooting through doors" in that situation.
The guy is going to jail.
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I live where this happened and what that left wing rag said is pretty much spot on in this case.
"POP" there goes your bubble!!!!
Comment self deleted.
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BTW... no-knock warrants are necessary, but in very very limited situations where there is considerably more information available and at least some investigation has occured.
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The officer was shot through the front door? The guy is going to jail.
A similar situation occured in Oregon where cops broke into a motorcycle gang's "headquarters" with a no knock warrant. One of the gang shot the first officer to enter the home before police identified themselves and they put the guns down. No charges were pressed as it was viewed as self-defense. But... there was no "baracading" and no "shooting through doors" in that situation.
The guy is going to jail.
Actually what happend was the officer had kicked in the lower door panel and was in the process of coming through it when the owner of the home fired. He didn't shoot through the door. He fired a target he could clearly see coming into his home unanounced, with no visible identification to mark him as a police officer.
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The officer was shot through the front door? The guy is going to jail.
From the article.
This past January that scenario played out at the Chesapeake, Virginia, home of 28-year-old Ryan Frederick, a slight man of little more than 100 pounds. According to interviews since the incident, Frederick says when he looked toward his front door, he saw an intruder trying to enter through one of the lower door panels. So Frederick fired his gun.
The cops say the deceased cop was shot through the door. Then again, the cops don't even know for sure how many of them were there. That too is in dispute.
Ebert also said Frederick should have known the intruders were police because there were a dozen or more officers at the scene. But some of Frederick's neighbors dispute this, too. One neighbor told me she saw only two officers immediately after the raid; she said the others showed up only after Shivers went down.
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Internet cop expert who believes leftwing opinion rag cause its saying what he wants to hear : CHECK!
You have shown time and time again your blind loyalty to the LEO Brotherhood. Instead of giving you credibility as a LEO or former LEO, (like Maverick and others have) it actually discredits your opinion.
I'd bet the farm that you are one of those officers that never *rats out* another officer no matter how wrong they were.
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CI's are valuable to an investigation, but they are for the most part untrustworthy lairs and anything they say must be confirmed.
What an informant had to say led to the DEA being in my home (they had a warrant) to look for an individual. Took them less than 5 minutes to serve their warrant, yet they wouldn't leave for 55 minutes and even then I had picked up the phone and was dialing the number for the county sheriff's office to have them removed before they would leave. I've related this story before, so I won't go into more details again.
Funny thing is, the color of our home didn't match what the informant told them.
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much as I respect the police and feel for the job they have to do...
They really are responsible at this point to refuse to break down doors and enter in the middle of the night.. they need to say "no mas" to a lot of this. "just following orders".. no matter how good a guy the cop is may not be the best defense at some point.
Why do they break in during the wee hours of the morning anyway? the only people who sleep at those hours are law abiding citizens.. if you wanted to catch crooks napping it would be at 1000 or noon.... could it be that they don't want citizens to see what they are doing?
lazs
thats well said Lazs.
You try and break my door down with out identifying your self as law enforcement, I can guarantee I am going to be shooting at you.
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BTW... no-knock warrants are necessary, but in very very limited situations where there is considerably more information available and at least some investigation has occured.
There was a time when I would have agreed with this. At this point in time I have to disagree simply because to many people have died in these types of raids that shouldn't have.
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Gee guys, I do stand corrected- death to the pigs and all that, right? After all, every cop out there is a power mad abuser of his authority, so this guy got exactly what he deserved! Why, how DARE he show up for his shift, put on his Kevlar and go serve a warrant on a suspected drug dealer! After all, it's the individual cops who decide if it's a no knock warrant or not, right?
Like I said- I do stand corrected. Any time a cop gets killed in the line of duty we need to start a thred rejoicing in the fact there is one less cop out there who might violate our rights. Sheeesus, man- some of you guys are a real piece of...work. I can see now it's going to actually take an effort on my part to keep from violating my parolee status in the face of - I don't know what you'd call it- so much convoluted logic, insinsitivity and ignorance.
I was watching the Early Show and they were showing a picture of J-Lo's new twin babies- one boy, one girl- and the commentaor on The Early Show asked if the twins were identical or not. It's not even eight AM yet, and between the dumbest question ever asked on The Early Show and the giddiness and downright rejoicing here over the death of a cop I can tell this is going to be one of those days.
:rolleyes:
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Airhead: Are you going on record then as arguing that "following orders" is an acceptable defense? This would seem to suggest that you don't hold the judgement skills of the individual officers in very high regard. There's also historical caselaw that would seem to refute the usefulness of that assertion, pretty strongly.
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There will be more of these incidents as time goes by. The 4th should mean something.
et tu, Brutus?
So now the 4th amendment gives us the right to shoot through our front door, huh?
My nephew is a cop, and around New Year's he shot and killed a perp who leveled a sawed off shotgun at him in a similar situation- he was answering a domestic disturbance call. I know that probably saddens some of you, that a cop didn't get killed, but personally I kinda like my nephew, and I'm glad he didn't get shot, and I'm glad he was able to go home to his wife and three kids after his shift.
I'm out of this thread- I'll let you guys celebrate the death of a cop without my imput. And I won't even call you names like idiots, or morons...frankly, I don't think that's necessary.
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Airhead: Are you going on record then as arguing that "following orders" is an acceptable defense?
No Chairboy- You went on record as saying the cop got what he deserved, I went on record as saying any time we lose a cop in the line of duty, under any circumstances, it's a tragedy.
So let's leave it at that, huh?
EDIT: Actually Chairboy you didn't say that- I stand corrected. I'd discuss the merits of no-knock warrants but I'd imagine there's situations where they are deemed absolutely necessary...I don't know how that would work if individual police officers decided what parts of law enforcement they would, or would not, participate in.
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So now the 4th amendment gives us the right to shoot through our front door, huh?
Whether or not he shot through the door is in dispute.
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et tu, Brutus?
So now the 4th amendment gives us the right to shoot through our front door, huh?
First of all, I'm not celebrating the death of anyone here.
The 4th gives you this:
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
So far, there are differing stories. One says the officer was coming through the lower panel of the door which the police had broken. The other story says he was outside the door. I think I'll wait until there's a confirmed version of what happened before I judge the right/wrong of this particular incident.
That said though, I try to put myself in the shooters place. I have a CCW. I have alert dogs. I am not a lawbreaker. If, in the dead of night, my dogs alerted, someone broke down my house door without warning or shouts of "police!", if that someone was crawling through said broken door with a weapon in their hands, I would most certainly have been looking down the barrel of a 1911 at them. If they then made a move that I considered a threat to my life, I would shoot.
What I have said here is that we need a serious judicial review of no-knock warrant issuance and procedures in serving.
Air, it's not like these warrants haven't targeted the completely wrong people with tragic results. This is another tragic result. I think it is time to review the whole idea and try to come up with some better safeguards.
If you think that is celebrating this officer's death, then the problem lies in your court, not mine.
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the job of the police is to protect and serve the citizens that hired them.
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You have shown time and time again your blind loyalty to the LEO Brotherhood. Instead of giving you credibility as a LEO or former LEO, (like Maverick and others have) it actually discredits your opinion.
I'd bet the farm that you are one of those officers that never *rats out* another officer no matter how wrong they were.
Now what on earth are you babbling about? Before this thread I didn't even know you existed so its a little strange that you should think you know me that well. :huh
Unless you were on the scene or are part of the investigation then you dont know what happened there. I dont care how close you live to the place or what papers you have read. There is a process that plays out and that will come to its conclusions.
Even my good Pal Elfie should allow that. The guy I grew up with and has been by my side the entire 25 years Ive been on the street. :lol
Good ole Elfie. :O
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Now what on earth are you babbling about? Before this thread I didn't even know you existed so its a little strange that you should think you know me that well. :huh
Unless you were on the scene or are part of the investigation then you dont know what happened there. I dont care how close you live to the place or what papers you have read. There is a process that plays out and that will come to its conclusions.
Even my good Pal Elfie should allow that. The guy I grew up with and has been by my side the entire 25 years Ive been on the street. :lol
Good ole Elfie. :O
Why is your avatar so sad, Rich?
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Now what on earth are you babbling about? Before this thread I didn't even know you existed so its a little strange that you should think you know me that well. :huh
Unless you were on the scene or are part of the investigation then you dont know what happened there. I dont care how close you live to the place or what papers you have read. There is a process that plays out and that will come to its conclusions.
Even my good Pal Elfie should allow that. The guy I grew up with and has been by my side the entire 25 years Ive been on the street. :lol
Good ole Elfie. :O
Now you are just being ridiculous.
Your responses in these types of threads are very predictable and rarely offer any true insight.
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Unless you were on the scene or are part of the investigation then you dont know what happened there. I dont care how close you live to the place or what papers you have read. There is a process that plays out and that will come to its conclusions.
The only problem with this is that it appears that there was no investigation... :rolleyes:
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It is possible the cop had his head through the door panel and the guy shot "through the door" into his body. Especially if the shooter was at an angle to the door rather than perpendicular to it. It would be technically correct to say he shot through the door but that's certainly not the same thing as shooting at someone beyond an intact door.
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Man, this all sounds freakishly familiar to a case we had here locally back in 1995:
http://www.napil.com/PersonalInjuryCaseLawDetail64293/Page1.htm
"The deputies entered the unlocked back door of the residence using the knock and announce procedure. Reding went in first and saw Thomas Eggleston, Eggleston's father, on the couch in the living room. Bananola followed and turned down a hallway. As Reigle prepared to follow Bananola, gunfire erupted. Reigle saw Bananola heading toward the front door of the residence in a low position. Reigle then saw Linda Eggleston open a door into the kitchen and look at him. He heard Thomas Eggleston tell her to put the gun down."
Was a crappy deal for all involved.
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Now you are just being ridiculous.
Your responses in these types of threads are very predictable and rarely offer any true insight.
Elfie your an A-typical internet cop thread troll. And this is the A-typical Internet cop thread troll thread. Of all the A-typicals the "no knock/ninja dress thread" ones are the worst. I usually avoid them but when some fool opened his mouth about this LEO getting killed I couldnt help myself.
If your so fascinated with police stuff, or think you can do better, Dept.'s across the country are hiring.
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I would like to say that my point is that no one on either side of these things needs to get killed for the most part. It is bad no matter who gets killed in a senseless and poorly thought out raid such as this.
I just don't think that they are justified in most cases.
lazs
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Gee guys, I do stand corrected- death to the pigs and all that, right? After all, every cop out there is a power mad abuser of his authority, so this guy got exactly what he deserved! Why, how DARE he show up for his shift, put on his Kevlar and go serve a warrant on a suspected drug dealer! After all, it's the individual cops who decide if it's a no knock warrant or not, right?
Like I said- I do stand corrected. Any time a cop gets killed in the line of duty we need to start a thred rejoicing in the fact there is one less cop out there who might violate our rights. Sheeesus, man- some of you guys are a real piece of...work. I can see now it's going to actually take an effort on my part to keep from violating my parolee status in the face of - I don't know what you'd call it- so much convoluted logic, insinsitivity and ignorance.
I was watching the Early Show and they were showing a picture of J-Lo's new twin babies- one boy, one girl- and the commentaor on The Early Show asked if the twins were identical or not. It's not even eight AM yet, and between the dumbest question ever asked on The Early Show and the giddiness and downright rejoicing here over the death of a cop I can tell this is going to be one of those days.
:rolleyes:
The officer in question did make the choice to go the way of a "no-knock" entrance. When a judge signs a search warrant or arrest warrant the judge does not decide how the police officers go about enforcing that said warrant. It is the officers themselves.
The second part of your rant has holes in it also. The officers in question were reported as being in plain clothes. There are conflicting reports, but it seems as if these officers acted on their warrant prior to uniformed officers providing back up.
Third, prior to even getting the warrant in the first place, they should have investigated their CI's claims. They could have ran that address though their system to see if it comes up with any other hits. Had they done this they would have seen the house was burglarized just days before. They could have contacted the responded officer and got more "intel" on the house and the occupants. Since there was a police report filed there has to be a name attached to that report. The cops in question could have/should have ran that name though their states CIC system and the NCIC system to see if the individual in question has any prior arrests or warrants.
Forth, if deciding to move forward with the warrant, they should have had unformed officers or a tactical team enter first. Kicking someones door in, in the middle of the night with jeans and a t-shirt on with a badge around your neck is not proof enough that you are in fact an officer of the law.
Had they done these things one of them might still be alive today. The bottom line is, these officers made a chain of errors that night that ended up with one of them on a metal table. Pointing out that these officers made some really stupid decisions in a short period of time is not cop hating or rejoicing in someones death. It is pointing out the cold hard truth of the situation. The cops screwed up and now an innocent civilian is going to pay the ultimate price because these officers refuse to admit they were wrong. Just because they are police officers does not mean they should get a pass or have their mistakes over looked.
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Elfie your an A-typical internet cop thread troll. And this is the A-typical Internet cop thread troll thread. Of all the A-typicals the "no knock/ninja dress thread" ones are the worst. I usually avoid them but when some fool opened his mouth about this LEO getting killed I couldnt help myself.
If your so fascinated with police stuff, or think you can do better, Dept.'s across the country are hiring.
A-typical response from you. Try to turn things around on the other person and act like there is no way they could understand cop stuff w/o actually being one. Get over yourself.
Facts in this case, there was NO investigation prior to obtaining a no knock warrant.
Fact, way to many people die in no knock raids.
Am I against them? You damn right I am.
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Third, prior to even getting the warrant in the first place, they should have investigated their CI's claims. They could have ran that address though their system to see if it comes up with any other hits. Had they done this they would have seen the house was burglarized just days before.
One has to wonder if the 'CI' actually 'informed' when in fact being questioned about the burglary.
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That's the type of plant the CI reportedly mistook for pot when he burglerized the home. Japanese maple.
(http://www.whitmanfarms.com/ProductImages/apalkihac.jpg)
ack-ack
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That's the type of plant the CI reportedly mistook for pot when he burglerized the home. Japanese maple.
(http://www.whitmanfarms.com/ProductImages/apalkihac.jpg)
ack-ack
It's also a tree....of sorts.....not sure how to link the image, so I'll just link the wiki page.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acer_palmatum
Notice the different types, some have leaves that are very similar to marijuana leaves but the plants the leaves grow on bare no resemblence to marijuana plants. The Bonsai trees of Karate Kid fame fall into this family of plants.
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More botched raids from over the years.
http://www.cato.org/raidmap/index.php?type=1
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Don't go breaking down doors in the middle of the night like the junior Secret Police and this sort of stuff wont happen. Remember the next time you are out in your kitchen fetching beer and popcorn, how do you normally hold the tv remote as you walk back to your lazy-boy? See your front door, if it breaks open at that moment, thats all for you.
Wow I just said nice shooting no need to get your panties in a wad. Its not like I said I bet he rolled around screaming for his mommy. Oops I just did.
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Wow I just said nice shooting no need to get your panties in a wad. Its not like I said I bet he rolled around screaming for his mommy. Oops I just did.
LOL- I don't wear panties, Poop21- well, maybe over my head occasionally- so if you're hoping you offended me frankly, you didn't. However, you did impress me with your stupidity, so I'll give ya that. :aok
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Airhead; Everyone has a right to defend themself and if cop didn't ID himself but was breaking thru the door then it's completely his own fault.
I think he should be nominated to Darwin Awards.
Are you having cop friends which colors your POV; is that right?
Oh... What was the speach you gave earlier in This Thread (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,230229.0.html)?
Do you think we can keep it at a civil debate level? When Skuzzy has to edit threads from parolees, answer questions from members who want an ignore feature so they won't have to read the parolees, and generally has to go back to spending a disporportinate amount of time policing the boards, I have to believe he regrets letting the parolees back, and he does reserve the option to undo what he may believe was a mistake.
Personally I don't care if some of you get banned again- indeed, some of you richly deserve to get banned again, and you've been back for less than a week- I just don't want you taking me down with you.
So try to keep it civil, K?
"However, you did impress me with your stupidity, so I'll give ya that".
Pretty good speach You had, almost got me fooled :)
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LOL- I don't wear panties, Poop21- well, maybe over my head occasionally- so if you're hoping you offended me frankly, you didn't. However, you did impress me with your stupidity, so I'll give ya that. :aok
The guy shot and killed somebody that was invading his home. Good for him. Hopefully a couple more home invaders get shot and killed in a similar fashion.
Home invaders with badges should learn to respect the 4th amendment. People with badges in general should know that their place in society is to serve and protect, not to walk around like the own the place. If they wanted to own the place, they'd have gone into business and grown rich.
This particular event, and others like it will serve as a good lesson to drive this point home.
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-humor ON-
Why be 'para' military?
Call in an F-4 strike ..a coupla 2k HE to 'open' the doors, mebbe some Napalm for effect.
-seriously, I too would hate to be woke up in the night by someone bashing in the door.
I can gaurantee someone gettin hurt, and not just me.
Cops gotta ask themselves, 'is this a good idea' ..
..and think about how *they* would react if they were on the other side of that door.
Joe Citizen may not be reasonable .. I sure as heck am not, I'm down-right grumpy.
-GE, aka Frank
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Thats the problem. These officers suffered from an operator, head space and timing, issue. All they needed to do was stop and think and the situation could have turned out vastly different. Instead they rolled in like John Wayne and one of them ended up dead.
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I do not want to see police or civilians being shot in homes in the middle of the night.
The best way to prevent that is for us to not break each others doors down in the middle of the night.
lazs
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I do not want to see police or civilians being shot in homes in the middle of the night.
The best way to prevent that is for us to not break each others doors down in the middle of the night.
lazs
Exactly.
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I do not want to see police or civilians being shot in homes in the middle of the night.
The best way to prevent that is for us to not break each others doors down in the middle of the night.
lazs
But how would cops violate the 4th amendment then?
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But how would cops violate the 4th amendment then?
Magic and kittens. :noid
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No Comment!
*The New and Improved Mac*
:D
Mac
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Magic and kittens. :noid
war kittens?
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No-knock warrant: Check
Police using SWAT tactics: Check
No identification as police: Check
War on drugs: Check
From the Federal Department of Redundancy Bureau:
SWAT = Special Weapons And Tactics
SWAT tactics = Special Weapons And Tactics tactics.
American Heritage Dictionary
par·a·mil·i·tar·y (pār'ə-mĭl'ĭ-těr'ē)
adj. Of, relating to, or being a group of civilians organized in a military fashion, especially to operate in place of or assist regular army troops.
All Police forces known to the FDRB of are groups of civilians organized in a military fashion, so all police forces are Paramilitary, but maybe not 'specially.
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war kittens?
With red eyes.
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apparently the police think the gun bans are working, if they feel they can kick someones door down without getting shot.
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Edit.
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With red eyes.
And bobbed tails so that they can not get caught in doors.
(http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q15/Kegger26/vivkingkitty.jpg)
(http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q15/Kegger26/58649993_30cfb197c9_m.jpg)
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There seems to be too many "he got what he deserved" comments. The police officer did not deserve to be killed for attempting an arrest. He was not out to kill the suspect, he was out to arrest him with a warrant. Laws were being upheld and everything was legitimate as far as he was concerned.
What put him in that position is debatable. What drove the suspect to open fire through a door (with the bottom panel kicked out) is debatable. What caused the suspect to barracade himself in his home afterwards is debatable. Celebrating the death of a police officer as if they are the gustappo and it was deserved is not. It smells of pre-conceived bigotry and kills any rational debate on the subject.
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You can make an arrest without turning it into "kill or be killed" situation.
I agree that it is best that no one gets killed.. It is also better tho if the person who caused the escalation gets killed instead of the person who was just sleeping in his own home.
It is not better by much.. a tiny sliver but.. still better.
I do not condone no knock except in the most extreme cases and with only the most extreme proof.
I find it odd that those who would weep over a convicted killer going to the gas chamber without the most rigorous checking of facts would also think it fine to bust down a mans door to his home in the middle of the night, guns drawn, and turn the home into the OK corral... all on what is often flimsy at best reason and at worst.. false.. or even the wrong address.
lazs
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There's way too many unknowns still out there to form any sort of opinion in this case. I think it will have to go to trial before anyone will even begin to have an idea of what actually occurred.
I still remain convinced we need a serious judicial review of no-knock warrants and raids at the SC level.
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There seems to be too many "he got what he deserved" comments. The police officer did not deserve to be killed for attempting an arrest. He was not out to kill the suspect, he was out to arrest him with a warrant. Laws were being upheld and everything was legitimate as far as he was concerned.
What put him in that position is debatable. What drove the suspect to open fire through a door (with the bottom panel kicked out) is debatable. What caused the suspect to barracade himself in his home afterwards is debatable. Celebrating the death of a police officer as if they are the gustappo and it was deserved is not. It smells of pre-conceived bigotry and kills any rational debate on the subject.
Thank you MiniD. That was also my opinion but you said it better...guys saying "good for him for shooting the cop" and "he got what he deserved" do show the anti cop bias that is so prevelant here.
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I find it odd that those who would weep over a convicted killer going to the gas chamber without the most rigorous checking of facts would also think it fine to bust down a mans door to his home in the middle of the night, guns drawn, and turn the home into the OK corral... all on what is often flimsy at best reason and at worst.. false.. or even the wrong address.
lazs
lazs, I find it odd so many here were actually gleeful a cop had been killed...and I doubt the intention of the no-knock warrant was to start an OK Corral-type gun battle.
But...whatever, since everybody here seems to be a gunfighter who would have done the same thing (I wonder if anyone here has actually shot anyone?) we can only hope the police never try to serve a warrant on any of you...you're all just too dangerous.
:O
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lazs, I find it odd so many here were actually gleeful a cop had been killed...and I doubt the intention of the no-knock warrant was to start an OK Corral-type gun battle.
It's a tragedy that the officer was killed. It would have been a tragedy if the civilian would have been killed.
Infos from a link I posted on page 3 of this thread:
19 non violent offenders killed.
38 innocent civilians killed.
23 Police officers killed or wounded.
110 raids on people who were completely innocent.
All these casualties occurred during no knock raids. The no knock raid lends itself to the Ok Corral type of gun battle. The raids are done at night when most folks are sleeping. The door is broken down/kicked in etc, and police officers storm into the residence many times w/o announcing they are police.
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Celebrating the death of a police officer as if they are the gustappo and it was deserved is not. It smells of pre-conceived bigotry and kills any rational debate on the subject.
the Gestapo were just police during their job, protecting their country, protecting germany, following orders. How would you deal with saboteurs blowing up your trains, killing your troops?
your condem the Gestapo but praise american police that break down doors in the middle of the night, i smell bigotry alright.
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If you take a shower, you might wash some of the stench of bigotry off. Either that or stand with the fan blowing away from you.
Excuse the getapo, condemn the police. I think that ranks right in there with the most idiotic thing I've ever heard.
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This story is so absurd that it could've been concieved by writers of The Onion.
Are police departments creating special sections of stupid cops to combat the type of stupid criminals like the ones shown on "World's Dumbest Criminals" ?
A hostage situation is the only scenario that would merrit any type of surprise tactical entry.
Let me write here the obvious explanation of why it was such a stupid, stupid thing for the police to do. The police are escalating a quiet situation into a life-and-death armed confrontation. Putting everybody at the scene in danger. The POLICE are doing this, we expect this from criminals, not police.
But it gets better. All this was over an aleged marijuana plant, true marijuana is the cause of much evil that plagues modern man. And that's why we are at war with these leafy evil doers. But it turns out that the plant, while we can't be completely sure where it's sympathies lie, was a noncombatant.
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Let me write here the obvious explanation of why it was such a stupid, stupid thing for the police to do. The police are escalating a quiet situation into a life-and-death armed confrontation. Putting everybody at the scene in danger. The POLICE are doing this, we expect this from criminals, not police.
Spot on!
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If you take a shower, you might wash some of the stench of bigotry off. Either that or stand with the fan blowing away from you.
Excuse the getapo, condemn the police. I think that ranks right in there with the most idiotic thing I've ever heard.
I think you are misreading the intent of the post.
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I thought that too elfie... so I read it again and again. What continued to catch my attention was: How would you deal with saboteurs blowing up your trains, killing your troops?
That's excusing behavior, justifying it. I know it seems rather difficult to believe that someone actually did that, but it did happen. If he'd said "the gestappo were just doing their jobs the same way the police are" I couldn't have made the leap. But alas, he didn't.
And suave... seems a hostage situation would be one of the worst situations for that. Maybe a multiple hostage situation where you accept x percentage is going to be lost (the recent scene with highschool girls being held hostage), but not in a situation where you're concern is the life of the hostage. Seems the no-knock should be reserved for situations where an armed individual who is strongly suspected of being the type that would open fire if not taken by suprise would be. Seems to me this situation was not the case (see my "more investagation" comments earlier).
None of that dismisses from the fact that your assumptions on the intelligence of the police officers (involved with this situation) after reading an article.
I'm not defending the police actions in this situation, but I'm not attacking the officers involved either. Some of you seem incapable of seeing what the difference is.
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One thing that bothers me about the title of this thread... it seems to imply that paramilitary police tactics are always or often wrong. It simply isn't true.
This situation seems to have occurred in a small town where so little happens that more supervision of the officers is needed... except the supervisors don't have much more experience than the line officers.
It was a tragedy. I would not extrapolate this incident to judge modern law enforcement.
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The problem is that the SWAT-style methods are being applied widely and loosely. When you have a hammer, your problems all begin to look like nails. Instead of dealing w/ hostage situations the way the original SWATs in LA did, they're increasingly becoming The Standard Method for doing things.
Gubthr, if this was the first time this had happened, I'd say 'sure, point taken'. But this isn't the first time SWAT methods or no-knocks have been used improperly with tragic results. It's not even the tenth.
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Being that I am a cop I take offense to some of the stuff said in this post. I do agree however that the PD should've did some investigation prior knocking the guys door down. I can't say that I blame the guy for shooting through the door. It is understandable being his house was just broken into 3 days prior, and it does sound like it was in self-defense. I wasn't there so I can't make a judgement just my opinion. I don't understand why they did a no-knock there is bound to be a reason again I wasn't there.
Now for a couple of reasons why raids are done at night. Say u have a subject who is just nuts, and sees u coming. He is more then likely gonna run. If he has a gun would u want him running at night when there is nobody outside that could get shoot in a crossfire, or during the day when the streets are flooded with ppl and maybe even kids. Most police officers are trained in checking the background before shooting, however subject's are not. Another reason why raids are done at night is b/c most ppl are sleeping. So it gives u the surprise advantage. In my opinion police departments can still obtain the surprise advantage even if they do announce theirselves. That is what a flashbang is good for. Well, that is all I have I do wish that the public would realize that there are method's that police departments use. When one police department screws up it affects every police department in the nation.
P.S. everything I said is in my opinion. Thanks
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Well, that is all I have I do wish that the public would realize that there are method's that police departments use.
The no knock doesn't need to be one of them. If it was in my power to do so, I'd stop them all right now. To many innocent civilians and LEO's have died during no knocks. It's time to say enough is enough.
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airhead... are you saying that pot heads are too dangerous to simply knock on their doors?
If it were a meth dealer... that would make a little more sense but.. why would you do the door smashing ninja thing in the wee hours when all the druggies are wide awake? Noon would be a more quiet time for druggies..
but then.. people would see you and ninja outfits look kinda dumb in the daylight.
lazs
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LCCajun: Of course knocking down the door in the middle of the night when the suspect is sleeping gives law enforcement an 'advantage'. If you think the discussion here is based around us not understanding that the police can project power more effectively by treating citizens like insurgents, then you're missing the point pretty spectacularly. The advantage, however, is tactical at best, not strategic.
When you treat your fellow Americans like enemy soldiers or terrorists, you detach yourself from your community. If people start to think of police as faceless shock troops then the job of the officer becomes (increasingly) more soldier-like. We aren't the enemy, but these tactics couldn't be more effective at creating enemies than if they were designed to.
We probably can't have Maybury, but we can do better than Baghdad.
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or even the wrong address.
lazs
Jim`s Cycle, Axtel Texas.
He built the shop after he recovered from the gunshot wounds.
He took some down with him also.
Wrong address in the middle of the night.
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airhead... are you saying that pot heads are too dangerous to simply knock on their doors?
lazs
Lazs, we have between 5-6 killings every year in our pot fields up here. Today's grower isn't some back to the land hippie, he's a criminal who is usually armed and usually involved in other illegal activity, like Meth. Almost every raid on a commercial grow operation up here results in firearms being confenscated.
Not only would I be nervous knocking on their door, but there's some roads up here I wouldn't drive on in Sept.- October.
As far as serving warrants goes, the number one goal is to keep both the officers and the suspect from getting hurt, or worse. There are situations where a no knock service is best- I don't know why they determined to serve this perticular warrant like this- but there are situations where a no knock warrant keeps the risk to officers and suspects alike at a minimum.
Anyway my point was the gleefulness of some posters at the death of a cop. If I were so inclined I'd copy and paste some of the comments here, because obviously many of you didn't read them and instead focused on a straw man like the 4th amendment, but I consider many of the comments in this thread to be offensive and inappropiate.
Far be it from me to rail against board offensiveness, but I don't believe I've ever rejoiced in the death of a police officer, soldier or any other person who protects me. Some of you have and still others gave a taict approval to your remarks by their silence.
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I wonder how those countries in Europe do raids? Do they do no knocks like this?
Prolly don't need to though, especialy not for weed.... but hey this is the land of the free right? :aok
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but there's some roads up here I wouldn't drive on in Sept.- October.
:D :devil
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The 4th is a strawman? You're joking, right?
It's a keystone of the Bill of Rights, ranked 4th by the Founders in importance. They put it in there for a reason.
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized
From the description of the case so far, where is the probable cause? An informant whose information wasn't validated in the least? The story so far is there was no additional investigation, just the informant's unsubstantiated word. This case goes directly to the 4th.
Strawman indeed!
And people wonder how we let our rights erode so far and so fast.
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I wonder how those countries in Europe do raids? Do they do no knocks like this?
They knock the door and if nobody opens the door they leave.
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Lazs, we have between 5-6 killings every year in our pot fields up here. Today's grower isn't some back to the land hippie, he's a criminal who is usually armed and usually involved in other illegal activity, like Meth. Almost every raid on a commercial grow operation up here results in firearms being confenscated.
and you know why that is, you make something illegal and the price goes up ,then the criminals move in for the profit.
does "prohibition" mean anything to you? Demon rum, reefer madness.
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This story is so absurd that it could've been concieved by writers of The Onion.
Are police departments creating special sections of stupid cops to combat the type of stupid criminals like the ones shown on "World's Dumbest Criminals" ?
A hostage situation is the only scenario that would merrit any type of surprise tactical entry.
Let me write here the obvious explanation of why it was such a stupid, stupid thing for the police to do. The police are escalating a quiet situation into a life-and-death armed confrontation. Putting everybody at the scene in danger. The POLICE are doing this, we expect this from criminals, not police.
But it gets better. All this was over an aleged marijuana plant, true marijuana is the cause of much evil that plagues modern man. And that's why we are at war with these leafy evil doers. But it turns out that the plant, while we can't be completely sure where it's sympathies lie, was a noncombatant.
Imma take the drug war comment to another thread and see how it plays out but good call on its noncombatant status, I loled.
Shame that the war on drugs and no knock warrants have taken another life, why have we the people let this go on? I can't believe this guy is getting charged with murder and the cop who killed that kid in NC while he came to answer the door is walking free?
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airhead.. I would say that there was a difference between raiding a home out in the sticks in a pot field and raiding a home in the city.
I still wonder what kind of druggies we are creating these days who sleep at night and get up bright and early. I would say that noon would present a much better chance of catching them napping... but then.. sunlight clashes with ninja outfits and.. home camcorders.
lazs
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but then.. sunlight clashes with ninja outfits and.. home camcorders.
........and neighbors , passersby, etc. (Read that as witnesses)
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Gunthr, if this was the first time this had happened, I'd say 'sure, point taken'. But this isn't the first time SWAT methods or no-knocks have been used improperly with tragic results. It's not even the tenth. Chair
Oh, I don't disagree. These tactics are applied widely and sometimes loosely. There are mistakes, law suites, political consequences and sometimes tragic human consequences when errors in judgment occur. The laws, the judges, and finally the tort system usually serve to keep things in check.
I'm not sure what you do about it, except jump up and down when it occurs where you are a voter, and demand that heads roll. Were you thinking about holding the police responsible for the planning and execution of these tactics, or sort of general nationwide ban on their use?
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Shame that the war on drugs and no knock warrants have taken another life, why have we the people let this go on? I can't believe this guy is getting charged with murder and the cop who killed that kid in NC while he came to answer the door is walking free?
That is the ultimate hypocrisy of our judicial system. Police walk away from incidents, sometimes w/o a slap on the wrist, that will put an everyday Joe in prison for many years.
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That is the ultimate hypocrisy of our judicial system. Police walk away from incidents, sometimes w/o a slap on the wrist, that will put an everyday Joe in prison for many years.
Dec. 28, 2006
NEW ORLEANS - Seven police officers were indicted Thursday on murder or attempted murder charges in a pair of shootings on a bridge that left two people dead during the chaotic aftermath of Hurricane Katrina.
Fri. Sept. 7th, 2007
Kew Gardens Court House, Queens
State Supreme Court judge, Arthur J. Cooperman, refused to dismiss charges against three detectives in the shooting of Sean Bell. Justice Arthur J. Cooperman rejected various arguments made by lawyers for the detectives,
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McGroin the incidents you quote with officers being charged are to rare imo.
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They were just some that I found within a couple minutes of Google...
Take them for what they're worth.