Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Wishlist => Topic started by: Bosco123 on March 20, 2008, 05:26:56 PM
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It's 10 times better than the Flak, which is already a great GV. today I have seen the mist kills even in one particular GV/Plane, and that was the Wibelwind. Its too good for it not to be perked.
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No.
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It's got less reach than the ostie and is just as vulnerable to bombs or rockets, or high ROF guns, if only people follow some minimal tactics. e.g. Two planes in from opposite sides, with the one that gets shot at pulling out, while the other just disables the vulnerable open turret.
It's not 10 times better than the Ostwind. If you're going to say that, show some supporting quantitative evidence that it actualy is "10 times better".
The WW will force players to follow better tactics, and that's good.
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It's 10 times better than the Flak, which is already a great GV. today I have seen the mist kills even in one particular GV/Plane, and that was the Wibelwind. Its too good for it not to be perked.
Stop vulching and they will not get you.
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Stop vulching and they will not get you.
:rofl
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Stop vulching and they will not get you.
You get Bosco mixed up with Hoagey...
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It's 10 times better than the Flak, which is already a great GV. today I have seen the mist kills even in one particular GV/Plane, and that was the Wibelwind. Its too good for it not to be perked.
Yes, it is ten times better than the Osti... that is, IF YOU FLY RIGHT AT IT. Hearing people whine about the wirble tells me who's used to flying directly at the osti, strafing it with almost impunity, depending on who was shooting back.
Learn that ground fire was no joke in WW2...and 4x 20mm were certainly no joke up to around 8,000 feet. Concentrate on better tactics... don't ask for the kills be handed to you.
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Bosco, do you actually have any kills in either the Ostwind or the Wirbel? Could you honestly make a statement regarding the effectiveness of either, based on experience? I bet not.
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and 4x 20mm were certainly no joke up to around 8,000 feet.
It's too bad we don't have that.
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Yes, it is ten times better than the Osti... that is, IF YOU FLY RIGHT AT IT. Hearing people whine about the wirble tells me who's used to flying directly at the osti, strafing it with almost impunity, depending on who was shooting back.
Learn that ground fire was no joke in WW2...and 4x 20mm were certainly no joke up to around 8,000 feet. Concentrate on better tactics... don't ask for the kills be handed to you.
PSH!! Do you want me to lose my status as "Noob" then? :rofl :lol Personally I could care less. I just stay away from those things unless i got bombs.
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I'd support perking the wirblewind about as much as the M4.
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It would be fair to perk the Wirbel IF they fix the views on the Osti so you can see and deflection shoot again.
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First Moray37 if your flying a wiberlwind.......slow down! :lol Once people get used to how this new gv operates they'll start kiilling them just as easy as the old ones. NO to perking it.
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I'm yet not sure if I want to see it perked or not.. but I'm sure you should give new toys a few weeks before you start yellling "perk!" :rolleyes:
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No reason not to perk it, that or make the m16 one perk gainin' mutah.
Dunno how that makes it any better, perks or not, if its effective people will use it.
Honestly i found it funny watching 20mm bounce off that new german gv they added also.
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i dont think it needs to be perked just stay away from them :salute
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it cant kill things 1.5k +
Even 1.0k is a lucky shot. Now why perk something that can be bombed quite easily without even getting into gun range. Vulchers = Dead = GOOD
Shame they restricted the osty
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agreed
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I think Wirbelwind must be perked for same reasons as Firefly - overuse, and to keep Osti and m16 in service.
But sure, HTC will wait some time before final decision, its too early to say does it really deserve perk cost or not.
Btw, vulching is bad :rofl
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Obviously review it at a later time. 6 months from now and then see if it is still overused.
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Shame they restricted the osty
I must be missing something in regards to the Osti out side of a new set up on it what is the difference? I find it to be the same as before LETHAL in the right hands.
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I would agree with you on this one. :salute
The 15000 Werbies on the field even when the VH is down would be kinda bad for the team that is trying to cap it.
Maybe 5 perks, because the turret is still very killable.
But still ROCK ON WITH THE IDEA! :rock
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I must be missing something in regards to the Osti out side of a new set up on it what is the difference? I find it to be the same as before LETHAL in the right hands.
By paging up over the gunsight you could pull of some insane deflection shots and have a better view. I havent had a long hard tinker with it. I'm sure shots where the enemy is flying straight at you are still easily do-able.
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I must be missing something in regards to the Osti out side of a new set up on it what is the difference? I find it to be the same as before LETHAL in the right hands.
The lethality of the gun hasn't change.
The new gunshield graphics have just made hitting something a BIG problem:
(http://img502.imageshack.us/img502/7058/ahss213rj2.jpg)
I would still prefer the Ostwind in some situations, but now it's near useless for air defense tasks.
In comparison, the Wirbelwind has a nice unobstructed view:
(http://img502.imageshack.us/img502/673/ahss214pu2.jpg)
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Oh man... I haven't tried the new Osti yet but it looks like they wrecked one of my favorite vehicles. Boooo!
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No need to perk Hitech. Please disregard this entire post. :aok
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By paging up over the gunsight you could pull of some insane deflection shots and have a better view. I havent had a long hard tinker with it. I'm sure shots where the enemy is flying straight at you are still easily do-able.
Didn't know you could page up on gun sight on older version of the Osti, I guess that explains why it seems to be little change to me in terms of shooting at planes. Thank you Lusche as well for your post.
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The lethality of the gun hasn't change.
The new gunshield graphics have just made hitting something a BIG problem:
(http://img502.imageshack.us/img502/7058/ahss213rj2.jpg)
NNNNNOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!
:furious :cry :mad: :cry :furious
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Anyone who says those 20mm cant reach out to 1.3k
You jus' keep on thinkin' that.
I killed 3 b17's who would say otherwise.
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i was able to hit low lancs at 1.5, of course the first one didn't go down till 1k out after it lobbed all it's ord at me.
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Love the WW. I don't even use it that much. I like seeing it kill countrymen just as much as I like seeing it kill enemies. Reason? The people it kills are low and slow hanging over a runway, doing nothing other than waiting for a plane to appear.
Just kill the VH. Then cleanup with bombs. If you want to attack a base, use bombs to kill the leftover gvs, then move onto vulching with your 20mm cannons on the magically appearing airplanes. I mean seriously are people really that dense? Or is it just laziness? Or is it they are realizing they can't land kills unless it's against stationary targets, on the ground, that they don't even need to actually score a direct hit on to kill. Can you not adapt to a new situation? And it's not even that big of a change.
Thank you HTC for raising the bar. Tired of seeing scrubs who think they are awesome because they can vulch (prior to patch) with impunity. Please do not perk the WW.
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There's no need to perk the WW. It does nothing other than stop the dweeby side of the game.... i.e vulching aircraft on a field that still has defences up.
If you get pegged doing that.... too bad.
If I get clipped by a WW I know I messed up. If you mess up you deserve what you get.
It has been said several times already... The WW is no harder to disable than the Ostwind. Kill the VH or simply work the GV with two aircraft.
Aircraft one feigns and attack, the second comes in from behind the firing line and pops a few round into the top of the turret. Flak Panzer neuterd, job done.
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The Wiberlwind prevents the lancstuka's from being a pest. Great add but not a perk point tank.
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Why do people want this perked exactly? because vulching is harder? Because they can't just take a V-base from the air with 2 guys anymore? I don't know, if one lacks the foresight to knock down the VH before hand that is on them and the hail of 20mm is rightly deserved.
Leave this vehicle un-perked.
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Because they do not have what it takes (brains or willpower or discipline, or whatever) to use proper tactics, even minimal. AH is meant to be a combat sim, which inevitably means tactics, and they want that dumbed down.
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That's pretty much it. Water flows downhill.
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Don't perk it; Hell, I'll go one better. You know the Quad 20mm's you see on the fields'? The auto-ack guns? Those are called Flakvierling 38's. They are essentially the gun and mounting of a Wirbelwind, on a stand-alone field platform. I'd like to see a couple of those made mannable.
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That would be a great idea. Maby one day there can actually be a reduced vulching utopia. :aok
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Why perk it? Because now rolling into a field and trying to use "tactics" is a loosing affair. We aren't seeing 2 or 3 of these roll out. I generally see 6+ roll out at every field. Tonight at a VH there were 7 WW and 1 lone little Panzer...LOL. They don't even have to try and aim. All of them just point there little guns in one direction and fill it with 20mm. They spray the skies and with the volume of fire are able to get hits without even putting much effort. I know, because I have upped them. In a few seconds tonight I killed 3 enemy planes without doing much more than pointing in their general direction. One of them was out about 1.5K.
This isn't about stopping the vulch to me. Won't lie: when the vulch light in on, I am in like everyone else. I don't think I have ever seen anyone turn away from a field with uppers and no ack or flaks out. But it is insane that these WW can through up that volume of fire, fairly accurately and, unlike the M16, are able to take down most planes with very few hits. Not only that, but they can tear a town down in no time. To me, the WW neuters anything but large "horde" type operations and helps to make sure we will see more suicide BUFFs against fields.
If this doesn't get perked then the whole perk system is pointless, nonsensical and arbitrary. Not a heavy perk, but something in balance with the value of this vehicle.
And, to show the tactical value this vehicle is playing:
Kills since its release on Wednesday: 9430 Death: 5072
Osti Kills Tour to date: 17429 Deaths: 10971
M16 Kills Tour to date: 3134 Deaths: 5766
Notice the WW is over halfway to the Osti's tally in just 3-4 days and has a better K/D ratio.
New or not, it is having a serious impact.
But of course, the GVers love it because they can shred the fly boys. And the furballers love it because, after all, they don't care about base capture and want the fight to go on and one. So, I am not surprised these two factions want the WW to stay unperked.
Oh well, not my call but if it were it should be perked at the level of a F4U or Sherman.
Cheers :aok
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Perk it, and the vulch-fest will continue. Please, don't perk the WW, the vulchers will attack. :(
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I would agree with you on this one. :salute
The 15000 Werbies on the field even when the VH is down would be kinda bad for the team that is trying to cap it.
Maybe 5 perks, because the turret is still very killable.
But still ROCK ON WITH THE IDEA! :rock
so youve seen 15,000 Werbies on a field?
ive seen maby 10-15 at most on a single field.
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the people that want it perked are like this:
(http://img86.imageshack.us/img86/5329/cryinght6.gif)
The WW is a uber killing machine tho, the range that it has is out to 1.5K and thats with the plane at the edge on my screen leading it.
It is 10 times better then the M-16, and id say 5 times better the osty in some ways, it takes a good marksman to hit a small target out to 3K in the osty.
being perked or not, id say no as theres only one VH on a airfield but on a airfield take out one single hanger and you dont have to worry about it any WW's or GV's.
On a VB all you have to worry about is the GV's, and taking down 3 VH's, i still think airfields need the same amount of VH's as the fighters and bombers.
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Perking it like a Sherman would do nothing because nobody worries about getting shot out of a Sherman. Even undedicated GV's like me have hundreds of GV perks, or thousands, and nobody would care about losing 15 of them. Not when you can make so many points shooting a 20 eny GV at 5 eny airplanes.
Its true the Whirbel will cause an adjustment in tactics. But is that so bad? Since when was vulching helpless planes on a runway skilled gameplay?
I haven't seen one Ostie since the Whirbel was released. Thats no surprise cause everyone wants to try it out and get some trigger time in it. I dont see much change in base captures. Most bases are grabbed when well coordinated missions surprise the enemy. Or, when an opposing team just lets it go out of non-interest. Since the Whirbels release Ive seen the same kinds of dumb gameplay/skilled gameplay both ruin and achieve base captures.
The biggest thing Im seeing is the vulchers have to take on more airplanes that have their wheels up. Today I watched a pile of Nits fly up and down runways trying to pick off planes while the nearby town went unscathed. Yesterday I watched a bunch of our mission fighters chase one spit leaving the 110s and goons unprotected. What has really changed?
There are some killing machines in this game in M-16s and Osties too. The Whirbel is just another tool. A great tool yes but deflection shots are not that easy in it and most guys are getting killed trying to HO it with guns and rockets.
I think its a great GV and is going to improve the game. Perking it would be meaningless. Certainly its way to early to even consider it. <S>
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Is the WW like the ostie, where you fill its open turret with exploding cannon shells or a nearby bomb blast and yet it keeps firing at you?
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Not at all Bozon. And M8s have no trouble putting the turret out of service either. Point blank, they also easily send it to tower with shots in the body
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I think that these are not hard to kill, just some are intimidated my the sheer weight of fire from a plethera of them all firing at once. I flew over a V-base the other day and it looked like wall to wall wirbles.
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If the WW gets perked then we have no effective AA vehicle left. The M-16 has virtually no armor and the 4 .50's don't pack that big of a punch. The Ostie now has it's metal plates around the gun so high that you can't see over them. Ostie is now virtually worthless unless the enemy plane is suiciding straight towards you.
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Go ahead perk it! I have 3,000+ GV perks to spend. I'll still land a bunch of victories. Makes not a single difference to me.
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Not at all Bozon. And M8s have no trouble putting the turret out of service either. Point blank, they also easily send it to tower with shots in the body
Thanks (I'm on leave from the game, so I can't test it). In that case I don't think they deserve a per tag. The problem with the Ostie is that more than being deadly, it is as durable as a tiger when it comes to an airstrike. It is good to have another anti-vulch tool to go with the M16 that can kill and be killed.
I am also happy to hear the whining about Ostie's "raise the view point and aim with mouse pointer" does not work anymore :rock
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If the WW gets perked then we have no effective AA vehicle left. The M-16 has virtually no armor and the 4 .50's don't pack that big of a punch. The Ostie now has it's metal plates around the gun so high that you can't see over them. Ostie is now virtually worthless unless the enemy plane is suiciding straight towards you.
:huh
Your serious? No effective AA vehicle without the WW? You've got to be kidding. :rolleyes:
And since when was an AA ride supposed to be on equal footing with an a/c? Specifically an attack a/c?
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If the WW gets perked then we have no effective AA vehicle left. The M-16 has virtually no armor and the 4 .50's don't pack that big of a punch. The Ostie now has it's metal plates around the gun so high that you can't see over them. Ostie is now virtually worthless unless the enemy plane is suiciding straight towards you.
I told you I'd "give you a tutorial" . Still waiting for you to approach me. The Ostie is very good in things "not just coming right at you".
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I am also happy to hear the whining about Ostie's "raise the view point and aim with mouse pointer" does not work anymore :rock
It does work with the Wirbelwind... :D
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Its amazing how quick few WWs can clear field from vulchers :rock
Still think it must be perked, it left no space for osti and m16. Since WW comes in play i see 1 osti and 1 m16 only :rolleyes:
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Wow after seeing all the whining about the WW killed me whaaa whaaa. Here ill explain it simply find a buddy both of u dive in from different side guns blazing i will bet one of u guys will knock out its turret. I actually think its easier to knock out the WW's turret then the osty. There is no way the WW should be perked. Stop being lazy figure out a new tactic.
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I see much more "dont perk WW, i cannt hit a wall with osties 37" whines (btw, i cannt too). Stop being lazy and learn to shoot with something else than 4 20mm guns battery if you cannt afford to spend few perks on WW.
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needs to be perked, i cant even dive bomb fields without 90% chance of death from those things.
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Wirbelwind has actually ruined the fun in flakking, since before no one respected the Ostwind, thus it was possible for a good shooter to have fun in it. Now that all fear the Wirbelwind, not too many taking chances on running low/trying to take out a flak with guns. Which is more realistic, as far as that goes.
Those who are able to kill in a Wirbelwind now would probably have been able to kill in the Ostwind, back when you could see out of it, the 4x20mm setup just inspires alot more confidence for some reason.
If the Osti views remain the same as they are now, the Wirbelwind must remain unperked. You can't even see low airplanes in the Ostwind anymore. Looking at pictures, I cannot see the physical difference between the two vehicles that causes the views to be so different.
If the Osti views are modified, then five points for the Wirbel might be fair, if nothing else so people will still learn to shoot in an Osti. Then when they buy the Wirbel, they'll be able to REALLY mess up the low cons.
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It's got less reach than the ostie and is just as vulnerable to bombs or rockets, or high ROF guns, if only people follow some minimal tactics. e.g. Two planes in from opposite sides, with the one that gets shot at pulling out, while the other just disables the vulnerable open turret.
It's not 10 times better than the Ostwind. If you're going to say that, show some supporting quantitative evidence that it actualy is "10 times better".
The WW will force players to follow better tactics, and that's good.
well if they dident kill me befor i would drop my bombs it would be better
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Oleg it's not that no one knows how to aim the Ostie, it's that you can't aim at something you can't see.
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Sounds like the only people whining about perking the WW are the ones who cant kill it. I can kill a WW in a B25H with its main gun! Tell me how a big buff can survive this 50 percent of the time? And if you cant dive bomb a field when these things are out your doing it wrong. Try adding a little more dive in your dive bombing. ;)
I challenge anyone to a duel in the DA. I get a typhoon with 6k of alt and you get a WW. Now with out bombs I bet I can kill you 4 out 5 times and with bombs I would wager 10 out 10.
(This is friendly thing meant to show tactics render these ground vehicle relatively harmless.)
Strip(er)
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Oleg it's not that no one knows how to aim the Ostie, it's that you can't aim at something you can't see.
You mean new view? Well, cannt say i welcome it, but it cannt make big impact on my aiming, because i rare hit planes which fly straight into me. And i believe that how most of osti kill was scored.
And I didnt said "no one knows", but sure, most doesnt.
Return to WW now. 6 days ago Blammo posted stats on WW, Osti and M16, i'll quote him:
Kills since its release on Wednesday: 9430 Death: 5072
Osti Kills Tour to date: 17429 Deaths: 10971
M16 Kills Tour to date: 3134 Deaths: 5766
Today we have (K/D):
WW: 19844 / 10294 (+10414 kills)
Osti: 18347 / 11773 (+918 kills)
M16: 3332 / 6219 (+198 kills)
For these 6 days WW scored more than 90% kills with 1.93 K/D
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Oleg the new ostie view is bad enough, and the WW has enough novelty as well as ease of aim within ~1K (and it's a lot more fun to have four guns in rapid fire than one slow cannon) that most players will fly it more for those three reasons. IMO the blind view in the Ostie is enough on its own to turn most players off and give the above predominance of WW useage.
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I dont think osti's view is any important factor to use WW more.
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I dont think osti's view is any important factor to use WW more.
Oh, it is.
In WW you can lead, in Ostwind not anymore.
I still would use the Osti quite a lot when I'm now actually rolling a WW just because i can't see my target anymore.
And not even that in WW I can spot enemy cons on the deck in every direction without moving my turret, just by looking around. Can't do that in Ostwind - not good in regards to aquiring targets or for defense purpses.
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I told about majority of players who couldnt lead in osti anyway (me, for example). And even if osti's view cames back all sudden, vast majority will use WW all the time. View is neither determinative nor ever important factor for most players.
Forgot to say "imho", for the sake of objectivity.
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Sounds like the only people whining about perking the WW are the ones who cant kill it. I can kill a WW in a B25H with its main gun! Tell me how a big buff can survive this 50 percent of the time? And if you cant dive bomb a field when these things are out your doing it wrong. Try adding a little more dive in your dive bombing. ;)
I challenge anyone to a duel in the DA. I get a typhoon with 6k of alt and you get a WW. Now with out bombs I bet I can kill you 4 out 5 times and with bombs I would wager 10 out 10.
(This is friendly thing meant to show tactics render these ground vehicle relatively harmless.)
Strip(er)
Nah, HO me while Im in a Whirbel and your dead meat. Why would you even think an unarmored airplane could take on an armored GV like that in a gunfight and win 4 out of 5 times? The bomb one is easy, just never go below 2,000'. Unfortunatly for the Jabo crowd they do it all the time in the MA.
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I drive the Wirby & the Ostie pretty regularly. It is just as simple to kill the Wirby as it is to kill any other GV. Here's the catch, you need a buddy or come in with a tank. When someone nails me in the Wirby, it is because they use a rope-a-dope team of JABO planes or a tank. I am looking at one plane diving on me, he hauls back out of range as soon as I commit to engaging him, by this time his buddy is already screaming at me with ords and I have very little time to spin turret and engage the real threat. It really is that simple. Going toe-to-toe in "Lone Wolf style" plane attack against an armored GV like the Wirby is pure and simple suicide. Perks needed for this vehicle? No. Has the ability to vulch easily been forever changed by the intro of the Wirby? Yes. Are changes needed to some of the same old tactics used in the MA? Yes. If you do not want to deal with Wirbys in the first place, then kill the VH or camp it. Again, it really is that simple.
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Yeah actually rope a dope is very effective but almost never seen. Often I see two or more planes maneuver like they are going to R & D but they almost never do. Im starting to wait until I see a WW firing elsewhere before I go in to gun or rocket it. Coming in anywheres near flat against multiples Whirbels is almost suicide. Even if you survive your probably going to take some damage.
I use a lot of side/rear views/upwards a lot in Whirbels. You can pretty much keep decent awareness in your 360%, most of all if other GVs are communicating. The Whirbel is a real killer. Another added plus with the M-16 and Whirbel is you can keep your bomber gunner skills sharp. Ill often keep the GV in 2nd gear and slowly move and shoot. I took some bombers up the other day for the first time in months and my gunning hasnt skipped a beat thanks to time in these GVs.
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Before they changed the views, anyone who had read Zazen's method and/or TAed with the Osti abit could score deflections shots with it regularly enough to be worthwhile. Particularly on buffs.
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PERK IT PERK IT PERK IT PERK ITPERK IT PERK IT PERK IT PERK ITPERK IT PERK IT PERK IT PERK ITPERK IT PERK IT PERK IT PERK ITPERK IT PERK IT PERK IT PERK ITPERK IT PERK IT PERK IT PERK ITPERK IT PERK IT PERK IT PERK ITPERK IT PERK IT PERK IT PERK ITPERK IT PERK IT PERK IT PERK ITPERK IT PERK IT PERK IT PERK ITPERK IT PERK IT PERK IT PERK ITPERK IT PERK IT PERK IT PERK ITPERK IT PERK IT PERK IT PERK ITPERK IT PERK IT PERK IT PERK ITPERK IT PERK IT PERK IT PERK ITPERK IT PERK IT PERK IT PERK ITPERK IT PERK IT PERK IT PERK ITPERK IT PERK IT PERK IT PERK ITPERK IT PERK IT PERK IT PERK ITPERK IT PERK IT PERK IT PERK ITPERK IT PERK IT PERK IT PERK ITPERK IT PERK IT PERK IT PERK ITPERK IT PERK IT PERK IT PERK ITPERK IT PERK IT PERK IT PERK ITPERK IT PERK IT PERK IT PERK ITPERK IT PERK IT PERK IT PERK ITPERK IT PERK IT PERK IT PERK ITPERK IT PERK IT PERK IT PERK ITPERK IT PERK IT PERK IT PERK ITPERK IT PERK IT PERK IT PERK ITPERK IT PERK IT PERK IT PERK ITPERK IT PERK IT PERK IT PERK ITPERK IT PERK IT PERK IT PERK ITPERK IT PERK IT PERK IT PERK ITPERK IT PERK IT PERK IT PERK ITPERK IT PERK IT PERK IT PERK ITPERK IT PERK IT PERK IT PERK ITPERK IT PERK IT PERK IT PERK ITPERK IT PERK IT PERK IT PERK ITPERK IT PERK IT PERK IT PERK ITPERK IT PERK IT PERK IT PERK ITPERK IT PERK IT PERK IT PERK ITPERK IT PERK IT PERK IT PERK ITPERK IT PERK IT PERK IT PERK ITPERK IT PERK IT PERK IT PERK ITPERK IT PERK IT PERK IT PERK ITPERK IT PERK IT PERK IT PERK ITPERK IT PERK IT PERK IT PERK IT
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make it like the perk on the sherman and perk it !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :pray :pray :pray :pray :pray :pray :pray :pray :aok
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Just as the intro of the WW has changed vulching tactics, I have already seen tactics of defeating the WW change. It seems very easy to kill the turret on the WW compared to the Osti. That alone should keep it from being perked. It is also very susceptible to jabos because of the limited effective range. Unless the jabo pilot has to get next to it to kill it.
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Just as the intro of the WW has changed vulching tactics, I have already seen tactics of defeating the WW change. It seems very easy to kill the turret on the WW compared to the Osti. That alone should keep it from being perked. It is also very susceptible to jabos because of the limited effective range. Unless the jabo pilot has to get next to it to kill it.
Yes, it is easy to kill the turret...if you can GET to the turret.
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Yes, it is easy to kill the turret...if you can GET to the turret.
I turreted 3-4 WW's today. I haven't died to one yet.
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PERK IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Stop vulching and they will not get you.
Pretty well sums it up.
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Stop vulching and they will not get you.
Or just stop flying anywhere they are rolling into, like defending a friendly field or trying to capture a vehicle base, or take a town down... :aok
:huh :confused: :rolleyes:
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Its a double edged sword.
While i know sometimes upping a plane is very hard on a camped field, i also hate to be on the team where everyone change's in there plane to defend in a gv.(Sometimes the only good and effective course of action)
I cant say perk it, as its just about the only usefull tool in the game for getting a field under control in a very short amount of time. on the other hand, any attacking planes should always take the Vh down, long before starting there straffing.
Leave it alone.
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I agree Bad. Please let this thread die...
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it hasn't already?!
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it hasn't already?!
Stfu noob :mad:
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THis thread is still going?
:rofl
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Wirbie isnt perked yet? :huh
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for me, i dont think it should be perked, same w/ other Bishops. however Rooks and Knights, they should be perked..... :devil
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no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no nno no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no
Yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes and.....yes. it needs to be perked.
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If you get killed by a Wirblewind.... you deserved it. End of story.
It won't be perked so give it up.
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It won't be perked so give it up.
Just because you doesnt want it? :rolleyes:
I didnt see HTC opinion yet.
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I've not even bothered to read what I have no doubt is a thread full of hijacks, high emotions, and vapid comments, but how can you say that Xasthur?
I've seen a couple WW drivers (whom I won't name :noid ) that have been consistently hitting first ping on WWs at 2.5-3k out (well outside icon range of the GV itself) and killing/disabling on the first hit every time.
I've also seen an entire force of spawn campers rolling as hard as they can for my airfield, not even aiming for the town, just going straight to the runway. 5 WWs anywhere near a runway, and you're saying it's the defenders' fault if they get shot down?
Bullpuckey!
The vehicle is being abused IMO.
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I dunno, i sure would like to know how far those rounds can kill things with.
Im guessing more than 1.5k now.
Used a wibl to take down a field's Gv hanger and radar, all while staying out of the base acks range "not hard aparently"
Dunno..
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"Abused"? In doing what? specificaly what the game is meant for?
Give the Ostie its old views and the WW definitely doesn't deserve a perk.
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I've seen a couple WW drivers (whom I won't name :noid ) that have been consistently hitting first ping on WWs at 2.5-3k out (well outside icon range of the GV itself) and killing/disabling on the first hit every time.
In offline testing, the WW's rounds don't even travel that far. I was using the dot target command, and couldn't even register hits on the ground past 2K, let alone on the target. How anyone could consistently hit and kill beyond the range the rounds travel is a bit of mystery to me.
Can anyone verify the range of the rounds? I suppose it's possible that due to the drop of the rounds, the effective range may indeed be more than what I was able to achieve, but I'm always skeptical where Krusty's figures are involved.
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That's odd, I'm pretty sure I've gotten hits out to "2.5", which should be between 2 and 2.5 thousand yards..
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I tested with the .target command at SL offline, moving the target in increments of 200yds until I no longer registered hits on the target. At around 2,000, I could see no hits/holes in the target, nor hits on the ground/water. Whether this is due to the limited range of the rounds, or simply the distances at which hits are rendered, I can't say.
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The maximum distance at which I could register any hits was 1720 yards. From 1730 I got neither water splashes nor hits on the target.
For comparison: I am getting hits with Ostwind up to 2700yds.
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That settles it then.. It's too bad we don't have more range on bullets.
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Thank you guys for the distance testing on the Wirby's guns. That pretty much settles the "it can hit stuff as far away as the Ostie" argument. Yes the WW is a great offensive weapon too. I will drive it right to the flight path of a base that has a conga line to a friendly base, and attempt to break up the flow of enemy AC to my field. Is this abuse of the vehicle? No. I used to do the exact same thing in the Ostwind, before the views were changed. There are solutions to this if you find it to be annoying-tanks, jabo's, field guns, etc. I find most guys however would rather attack the Wirby in a fighter with guns, and for the most part this is a no no.
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I posted a link with all the german tanks and there performance in the vehicles section. I recommend you check it out for the specs on the wirblewind/osti comparison. Osti has longer range and bigger punch but for shear lead pouring grab a wirby. I'm not thrilled with the new sights/view on the osti but can still hit things pretty well with it. There are ways to get around the limitation to the barrel's depression downward. I can't tell as it's a secret. :D
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My squad and I were discussing this same topic a couple of nights ago...and we all agree that sad but true it will probably end up perked. I know that if my squad and I are defending a V-base with this little jewel and we have good supplies, its almost impossible to get near the base with aircraft. And any noob can get in one and score 5,6,7 or more kills at a time...so my thoughts are it is probably going to end up perked because it kind of takes the balance out of the game. Oh and this is not to mention taking along a couple for air defence in taking a town down...were attaching aircraft are low and slow and usually bombers are attack aircraft.
Cajunn
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View on the Osty is being put back to the way it was apparently, check the patch news thread in announcements.
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And as for the distence thing i had ont of the LTAR squad take out two of me B24's and my Altitude was 7.5, wish I would of filmed it for you guys..
Cajunn
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And as for the distence thing i had ont of the LTAR squad take out two of me B24's and my Altitude was 7.5, wish I would of filmed it for you guys..
Cajunn
If your altitude was 7500 feet, then this is 2.5K in the game since the distances are measured in yards. This is within the range of an Ostwind.
And that is assuming the base you were overflying was at 0.0 altitude. If it was, for example, a 3.0K base, then your altitude above the ground was only 4500 feet, or D1.5K in the game, and therefore in range of the Wirbelwind as well.
Lusche and Hub have done the testing on the range. I am confident they know what they are doing.
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could a wirblewapper kill this
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/1181_1207275673_tiger3full.jpg)
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DPQ, i doubt it, how ever, thats not what i was gonna say. What i was gonna say is: I don't care if my Wirlly bird gets perked, i got 630 perks for GV, and what would it matter if i lost a single WirbelWind? wouldnt kill me!
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.so my thoughts are it is probably going to end up perked because it kind of takes the balance out of the game.
So having 20 airplanes flying up and down runways for 20 mins vulching is "balancing"? Thats about all the WW is good for anyways. Base defense against low flying aircraft. And in reality 20mm AA cannon was always very dangerous to low flying attack airplanes. Yes the Whirbel calls for a change in tactics but its hardly "unbalancing". Well, maybe for runway vulchers it is. :lol
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Anyone who seriously believe what perking WW will stop ppl from using it (if we dont say about 100 perks, of course) and cause return of vulchfest, just plain stupid no less.
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i got 630 perks for GV, and what would it matter if i lost a single WirbelWind?
ONLY 630 gv perks?
:rofl
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Anyone who seriously believe what perking WW will stop ppl from using it (if we dont say about 100 perks, of course) and cause return of vulchfest, just plain stupid no less.
Not trying to stop people from using them. I enjoy killing them (or at least poping their turret) to much for that. I just think there should be a cost behind a GV that takes almost no effort to shoot down aircraft. In addition, it can maul all lightly armored vehicles, and tear down a down in no time.
It is funny to me that the people against perking the WW always try to cast those that want it perked so they can vulch. Seems they ignore the tactical impact the WW has. If I use that same logic then the Tempest, 152, F4U1C, F4U4 and Spit XIV should all be unperked. After all, if people just learn to fly & fight better, they wouldn't have to worry about those planes. :rolleyes:
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Bah I vulch and I do base defence in GV's and I can't get kills doing either :lol
Perk it all I say!
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FYI: Just a little data to chew on-
WW: 14227 Kills/8439 Deaths (Unperked) - Almost 2:1 and a little more that a week into the tour
Osti: 1057 Kills/1179 Deaths (Unperked)
M16: 179 Kills/483 Deaths (Unperked)
Other GVs:
M8: 1107 Kills/1903 Deaths (Unperked)
Panzer: 23443 Kills/27146 Deaths (Unperked)
T34:
M4: 13227 Kills/5767 Deaths (Perked)
Tiger: 5010 Kills/1325 Deaths (Perked)
WW Standings at the end of last tour:
27040 Kills/13936 Deaths in only about a half a tour and people just learning how to use them.
But, nah...it hasn't had any impact on the game. :rolleyes:
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I dont think it should be perked but i do think the ENY of it should be 10 not 25.
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They are anti aircraft platforms. They are intended to shoot down planes. If you are close enough to get shot down, you are doing something stupid. That they continue to rack up kills highlights the fact that there is virtually no concept of tactics or even the basest strategy in the MAs, something the abysmal lack of effective AA weapons for the longest time encouraged.
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They are anti aircraft platforms. They are intended to shoot down planes. If you are close enough to get shot down, you are doing something stupid. That they continue to rack up kills highlights the fact that there is virtually no concept of tactics or even the basest strategy in the MAs, something the abysmal lack of effective AA weapons for the longest time encouraged.
So a skilless AA platform is the answer! :huh :rolleyes: :aok
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If it gets perked, so should the XVI. I mean that, too, is just too much of a "skill-less" crutch right?
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If it gets perked, so should the XVI. I mean that, too, is just too much of a "skill-less" crutch right?
:aok
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The number of kills it has is astounding, but the number of deaths probably has a lot to do with GVs killing WWs as well. I haven't checked recently, but last time I did it had a lot of deaths to other GVs.
Vs aircraft alone I bet the kills/deaths ratio is astronomical.
This GV is seriously being abused, IMO. That's just how I feel about it.
Let's see.... 8000+ deaths, at a perk price of (let's say) 20 perks, that's 160,000 perks that would have been lost this week's losses alone.
Yes, even a small perk price would be enough to curtail the use of this thing. It wouldn't disappear, but it would stop the mini-hordes of 12+ wirblewinds sitting next to each other.
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The number of kills it has is astounding, but the number of deaths probably has a lot to do with GVs killing WWs as well. I haven't checked recently, but last time I did it had a lot of deaths to other GVs.
Vs aircraft alone I bet the kills/deaths ratio is astronomical.
This GV is seriously being abused, IMO. That's just how I feel about it.
Let's see.... 8000+ deaths, at a perk price of (let's say) 20 perks, that's 160,000 perks that would have been lost this week's losses alone.
Yes, even a small perk price would be enough to curtail the use of this thing. It wouldn't disappear, but it would stop the mini-hordes of 12+ wirblewinds sitting next to each other.
:aok I agree
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They are anti aircraft platforms. They are intended to shoot down planes. If you are close enough to get shot down, you are doing something stupid. That they continue to rack up kills highlights the fact that there is virtually no concept of tactics or even the basest strategy in the MAs, something the abysmal lack of effective AA weapons for the longest time encouraged.
I feel I must agree with this, which is probably a first, :rofl and I want to address something Lusche said earlier, "and I think it was in this thread". About how the turret traverse and loading times are highly skewed in the game. Well its just my gut feeling but I'll bet none of the turret traverse times, load times, shoot till empty times, in any of the games GVs is historically correct. I know for a fact the Osti and M16s couldnt fire their full ammo load that quickly, nor could they traverse their guns that quickly, so how is the Whirbel any different?
The reason these Whirbels continue to rack up kills is cause guys haven't adjusted their attack tactics yet. They are to use to strutting around like Manfred von Richthofen, flying up and down runways picking off anyone dumb enough to spawn "like me", and then flying home at warp factor 8 to land their 9 kills while their drones give WTGs like they earned them. Yaknow I had a friend who flew Jugs in WW-ll and he used to tell me he'd make a sign of the cross before he dove into a highly defended German target, like an airfield, to release bombs. To these guys "low" around these types of targets was under 10,000' and they wouldnt dream of getting within 20mm range if they didn't have to. If it wasnt for the Jug, and its huge lead soaking engine, we would have lost a lot more pilots in the war. Thats how fearsome the German AA was.
The other day I shot down 5 airplanes while we were taking a town. These airplanes took off from the nearby strip and went directly to the town cause we only had a few fighters in the air. Then, at very low speeds, they twisted and turned over the town trying to straf the GVs. Well it was childs play to shoot them down. I probably could have killed 10 if I wasnt so busy shooting buildings. I bet I could have shot the 5 down with a M16.
And thats why a lot of guys are pretty good with Whirbels. Because they are used to shooting M16s and the transition was easy for us. The Whirbel is no more a "skilless platform" then anything else is. If anything is "skilless" it the guys who haven't changed their ways since the GV was introduced.
OK how do you defeat them? I always worry about the guys who pulls out at 2 to 3k and all of a sudden I hear a whistling sound heading my way. Ok, thats one way. Another way is to dive in the horizontal and never come in flat. And never, ever HO one. Even a good 110 stick is probably going to lose because in a whirbel we are sending clouds of 20mm up for you to fly into and then we start tracking you with bursts as you get closer. If you do HO one then make sure your coming in fast or the WW isnt looking at you. If Whirbels are taking down a town you have to roll tanks and get ords up to dive bombing range. If the enemy had the skill and the tactics to take out both ords and the GV then your probably going to lose the base. Barring some good M3 or goons hunting that is.
So now the game is more like the actual war and less like a computer pinball game. In other words you cant vulch as much or fly in ways that would have been suicide in the actual war. The new GV has made the game more of an actual flight war sim. And thats a good thing. I'll be very dissapointed if AH bows to the calls to perk it.
But at the least we have now "Whirbelnoobs" to take the presure off of "Lghay noobs". :lol
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Its also made it so people can hide at their base with 10 WW in the runway. Never to come out of the ack.
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No need to perk the Wirby HTC. Please disregard this thread, and I am truly sorry that your valuable time was taken up by such a baseless claim.
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The number of kills it has is astounding, but the number of deaths probably has a lot to do with GVs killing WWs as well. I haven't checked recently, but last time I did it had a lot of deaths to other GVs.
Vs aircraft alone I bet the kills/deaths ratio is astronomical.
This GV is seriously being abused, IMO. That's just how I feel about it.
Let's see.... 8000+ deaths, at a perk price of (let's say) 20 perks, that's 160,000 perks that would have been lost this week's losses alone.
Yes, even a small perk price would be enough to curtail the use of this thing. It wouldn't disappear, but it would stop the mini-hordes of 12+ wirblewinds sitting next to each other.
Curtail what Krusty? When did you get caught by the WW last? I ran into maybe half a dozen of them, and all it took was a minimum of SA to see the icon, or suspicious dot before the icon, and just steer clear. When was the last time you actualy had a WW problem that 2.5klbs wouldn't solve? 1 player in a WW isn't enough to stop 1 other player from dropping the VH, and giving the "WW problem" it's "final solution".
Above are bolded arguments not backed by concrete data. The actual fact is that 1 quick strafe of the turret will disable it, or failing that, a pre-emptive strafe of supplies, or failing that (which anyone with some sense knows), 2,500 lbs into the VH definitely suffices.
This is as off the wall as complaining about man acks. Just kill them in the first place, end of story.
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Its also made it so people can hide at their base with 10 WW in the runway. Never to come out of the ack.
So the war was different? Actually it was common for ME-163 comet sticks to come into their bases fast, and then circle to do their slow downs for their landings ,while friendly ack kept the wolves at bay. Imagine what would have happened to an actual war enemy fighter coming into an alerted airfield to shoot down friendlies who were circling? It would be a good day indeed if you survived that adventure. Airstrip attacks always demanded the advantage of surprise and coordination. Something you dont see much in this game.
Ive seen these 30 min vulch sessions both from the ground and the air. 20 or 30 guys circling and airfield shooting airplanes on the strip while a nearby town hasn't even been touched. Oh and the screams and whines about "stealing kills" I tellya I just cant stand them. With the Whirbels now Im starting to see more teamwork and coordination. I do believe they have elevated CV play as well cause a CV can get near and always has ords up. And you have to have ords now for the Whirbels.
Course nobody bothers with the ords at nearby bases to CVs but one step at a time. :D
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People have always hid in their ack, WW's dangerous range isn't as long as the auto-acks BTW. Furthermore, I have seen the situations where one hears people complaining about ack-huggers on range...numerous attackers with massive alt advantages, and they are whining because 1-3 devils are trying to get a little alt or wait for help to arrive inside their ack.
It has always been ridiculously easy to avoid getting killed by AA fire. If you don't want to get whacked by flak huggers, hang in there and watch them hug till your heavies bring down the VH and the WWs are being carpet bombed. Then you can even vulch again, although you ought to consider actually capturing the base before the VH comes back up. Or back off a little bit to draw them out of their ack.
BTW, let us all keep in mind that effective range on the WW is, maximum, 2K. That is 6000 feet. A mere 6000 feet above the ground will keep you out of trouble from them. As compared to 10,000 feet for the auto-ack we already had.
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If it gets perked, so should the XVI. I mean that, too, is just too much of a "skill-less" crutch right?
Sounds good to me...
Or, the alternative, is to remove the perks from everything. After all, if people will learn the right tactics then all the perk planes/vehicles can be easily defeated, right?
There is this constant assertion that people want the WW perked because they want to vulch/don't know how to kill them/don't know how to avoid them. Probably true in some cases, but not all. I get killed occassionally by them, but for the most part I either avoid them or kill them. I don't worry about vulching as I am trying to improve my abilities and so I don't run the runway much anymore. I just believe they are getting abused (in the same fashion that 262s would be abused if they were not perked).
The WW, next to the Jeep, are the easiest cartoon ride in the game. It's all just point and shoot. I have taken the WW out and can tell yeah, it takes very little effort to get kills in them at a con that is 1.5K out. I get kills at 2 K out pretty easily and I don't do GVs that much.
But, you guys are right...you have convinced me. I think all perks should done away with. All we have to do is learn the right way to fight them and then it will be easy peasy :aok
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remove the perks from everything. After all, if people will learn the right tactics then all the perk planes/vehicles can be easily defeated, right?
Not without a rework/rebalancing of the perk points system.
There is this constant assertion that people want the WW perked because they want to vulch/don't know how to kill them/don't know how to avoid them. Probably true in some cases, but not all. I get killed occassionally by them, but for the most part I either avoid them or kill them. I don't worry about vulching as I am trying to improve my abilities and so I don't run the runway much anymore. I just believe they are getting abused (in the same fashion that 262s would be abused if they were not perked).
Well first you say they're not a problem, but then you say they're being abused, without saying how. Why are they being abused, and should they consequently be perked?
The WW, next to the Jeep, are the easiest cartoon ride in the game. It's all just point and shoot. I have taken the WW out and can tell yeah, it takes very little effort to get kills in them at a con that is 1.5K out. I get kills at 2 K out pretty easily and I don't do GVs that much.
Point & shoot the same as it is for any planes, even a Spit or Hurricane mk I (arguably more so, maybe!). I think the ease of 2K kills is deceptive. Most guys who miss (e.g.) rope shots, or deflection shots, sometimes come very close, and often come very close very often. Lots and lots of people aim the Ostie well, but the dispersion spoils their apreciation of how close they are at getting the one and only impact they need for a kill. Same with MK108s.
If the WW wasn't so easy to disable, if it had more range than 1.7K, and if it rode faster than the standard 25mph, it would probably be worth perking.. As it is, it is just proof that most players have gotten too used to the biased planeset. That is, a planeset that's not quite like WWII really was. WWII wasn't a time and place you wanted to be low and slow, as far as AAA was concerned.
But, you guys are right...you have convinced me. I think all perks should done away with. All we have to do is learn the right way to fight them and then it will be easy peasy :aok
Well, it is already easy peasy. The real problem players are experiencing at least 9 times out of 10 is using the wrong tactics. Just like they don't bother with learning ACM, practicing gunnery till it's as boiled down to second nature requiring as little conscious thought as possible, with honing their SA, with getting a good sense of furball dynamics, of the rhythm of vulching, or of the basics of tactics (ordnance and/or shore batteries and/or VHs and/or MAN ACKS at the top of the short list on a field raid, or a minimum of decoy/tag team tactics when attacking a WW/OW/bomber).
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The whole notion that Wirbles are being "abused" rests on the fact that lots of them are being used, and Ostis aren't being used so much.
I'm sorry, but that is a poor argument. If there were only two buffs, the B-24 and the B-17, and the B-17 was slightly porked, you'd probably see the B-24 flown on 90% of bombing missions. Wouldn't be an argument for perking it though.
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Moot, the only "right" tactic for a WW is to avoid it.
So, as soon as the WWs show up, we all RTB and log off?
Seriously... Sometimes you need to take a field. Sometimes you are putting in an effort. Sometimes, like what happened a couple weeks ago, you get WWs escorting panzers and tigers that camp ON your RUNWAYS (ignoring the town) in a totally disruptive mission. You try to defend against this with "right" tactics for a WW and... oh, wait, we've left the area and let them take it undefended.
You go into the fight more you'll see more WWs. They are predominant amongst GVs right now.
BnZ: M16s have laser accuracy but short range/damage. Osty has long range but low accuracy/hit%. Here's the WW with ... aparently... 2.5k firing range, near laser accuracy, instant kill shots from any hit, and not only that but instead of finding 1-2 osties at a field you'll find 20+ WWs. I'd call that abusing it.
P.S. I *DID* try to get the B24 perked some time ago. 90% of all bombers are B24s these days, and they are by far the most capable bomber at defending themselves and still striking the enemy, the fastest and highest flying unperked plane. With the ueslessness of the Ar234, I considered it a worthy thing to perk (so at least SOMETHING on the bomber side was worth spending points on! say 10 perks or something). This idea didn't go anywhere tho. No word from HTC on the matter.
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Here's the WW with ... aparently... 2.5k firing range, near laser accuracy, instant kill shots from any hit,
But actual max range is only 1700yds, with a huge trajectory drop. Accuracy is indeed very high, but drops off rapidly >800. Few people can kill crossing targets at 1.5k. And no, there is defenitely no "instant kill" from any hit. Many planes can absorb one or even two 20mm hits when not hitting a critical component like oil cooler, cockpit or vertical stab.
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Few people can kill crossing targets at 1.5k. And no, there is defenitely no "instant kill" from any hit. Many planes can absorb one or even two 20mm hits when not hitting a critical component like oil cooler, cockpit or vertical stab.
Guess I am just lucky to be or to be around those that can get those rare crossing 1.5K shots. I sure see it an awful lot.
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Moot, the only "right" tactic for a WW is to avoid it.
, you get WWs escorting panzers and tigers that camp ON your RUNWAYS (ignoring the town) in a totally disruptive mission. You try to defend against this with "right" tactics for a WW and... oh, wait, we've left the area and let them take it undefended.
You go into the fight more you'll see more WWs. They are predominant amongst GVs right now.
BnZ: M16s have laser accuracy but short range/damage. Osty has long range but low accuracy/hit%. Here's the WW with ... aparently... 2.5k firing range, near laser accuracy, instant kill shots from any hit, and not only that but instead of finding 1-2 osties at a field you'll find 20+ WWs. I'd call that abusing it.
P.S. I *DID* try to get the B24 perked some time ago. 90% of all bombers are B24s these days, and they are by far the most capable bomber at defending themselves and still striking the enemy, the fastest and highest flying unperked plane. With the ueslessness of the Ar234, I considered it a worthy thing to perk (so at least SOMETHING on the bomber side was worth spending points on! say 10 perks or something). This idea didn't go anywhere tho. No word from HTC on the matter.
I go into the fight enough. BTW, I long ago learned to assume that any plane diving to the deck on me is either running to flak, ack, or friends, and have learned to let them go or proceed carefully. I see it this way if you're fighting for the map, rather than just having fun furballing (I don't have a problem with either approach): On defense, the fighters main job or at least a huge part of it is to prevent buffs and attack aircraft from destroying crap on the ground, whack goons, and protect the GVs, on offense, your main job is to distract the fighters enough to allow the buffs and attack aircraft to destroy buildings, hangers, and GVs until you render the enemy base helpless, then capture it. Air superiority through fighter-on-fighter stuff in this context is for the purpose of achieving these two ends.
Wirble-vulch-camping, yeah well, thats not too cool a situation to run into, but nothing is an unmixed blessing. The extent to which it cancels out airplane vulching is a more than makes up for it. So a bunch of wirbels and tanks huh? Well, sorry, that is called bringing a horde to the fight, sucks, but it happens, no matter the tools. If they ain't trying to take the base though, doesn't that give the defenders more time to up some buff formations from another base and bomb them into oblivion?
I'm sorry, I just don't think the WW is pinging crossers at 2K often at all. I never even try on a crosser that doesn't come within 1000. Often enough on crossers, I get flashes and get only a smoking engine, fuel leaks, or nothing. And I have often been killed by a dive-bomber who releases at 1.5K and pulls off without landing a single return hit, so sorry, the things are very killable. Just not in a close range head-on gunfight.
BTW, I intercept all the loaded buffs I can, and the B-24's strong points are made up for by the fact that one pass at a steep angle and 400+mph is still enough to set the wingtank on fire. And I see at least as many lancs as B-24s. We don't need to go to perking heavies, except the jet, people nee incentive to fly buffs. Perks for extra planes in the formation, now that would be worth spending points on, ESPECIALLY to eliminate Wirble hordes.
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Guess I am just lucky to be or to be around those that can get those rare crossing 1.5K shots. I sure see it an awful lot.
I get bracketed by a couple of folks whom I shant name at 2.5-3k well outside icon range of even their GV from me, and they are VERY close to hitting me (rounds missing me by inches) as well as any shot they fire inside 1.5k is instant kill, even at bad angles on highly-manuvering planes.
Like I said, I won't name names til the films are submitted to HTC. :noid
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Rubbish, I say, rubbish!
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I get bracketed by a couple of folks whom I shant name at 2.5-3k well outside icon range of even their GV from me, and they are VERY close to hitting me (rounds missing me by inches) as well as any shot they fire inside 1.5k is instant kill, even at bad angles on highly-manuvering planes.
Like I said, I won't name names til the films are submitted to HTC. :noid
Dude, if you imply they are cheating somehow, shame on them!, but that has nothing to do with the regular wirble as modeled by HTC and aimed by the regular player using the standard-issue MkI eyeball.
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The problem with crossing shots at 1,500k are the sights. You cant use zoom cause you'll lose the airplane for the lead and if you dont use zoom, even if you can still see the plane around the sight frames, 1,500k, or yards, is a long ways off. Ive killed planes with this shot, and Ive done it with M16s, but not often. And a run90 or runstang coming in at warp factor 9 is extremely difficult to hit.
And 1,500 is about when I start shooting. The exception is an HO where I'll start at 2,000 with a WW. With an HO I'll lay a cloud of 20mm in front of him to fly into and then start tracking with bursts at 1,500. But 2.5 to 3,000 yrds? I'd like to see that film. Im not going to say I dont believe you but this must be the Annie Oakly of Wirbeling. Thats a very difficult shot to make with a 37mm. Truth is any shot past 1,500 is a long shot with a wirbel, the longest Ive made is around 2,000 yrds.
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I got a kill on a crossing shot at ~1500 in a WW just the other night. I used to do that regularly in the Osti. The technique seems about the same. The difference is, one hit from an Osti and they were dead. I got hits on a second 1500 crosser the same night in the WW but only pinged the guy up that time.
I haven't had an opportunity to try a head on in the WW yet but 2-2.5K kills in an Osti head on were easy.
Now that the Osti head positions are back to normal I bet you see a lot less WW's and a lot more Osti's again.
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Now that the Osti head positions are back to normal I bet you see a lot less WW's and a lot more Osti's again.
I would rather say "a little less WWs and a little more Osties" but we'll see. I dont expect WW's kills drop below 85%.
Now we have:
WW: 15578/9264 (91.5%)
Osti: 1247/1328 (7.3%)
M16: 196/554 (1.2%)
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If you have a problem with the wirby's then kill the damn VH.
Problem solved :aok
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I would rather say "a little less WWs and a little more Osties" but we'll see. I dont expect WW's kills drop below 85%.
Now we have:
WW: 15578/9264 (91.5%)
Osti: 1247/1328 (7.3%)
M16: 196/554 (1.2%)
Oleg please compare this proportion to the proportion of players that ignore ACM, SA, proper gunnery, tactics, and general furballing dynamics. You'll find they're pretty much the same.
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This GV is seriously being abused, IMO.
O krusty, how your complaining makes me laugh. You haven't given even one example
of "abuse" yet. Tanks being escorted by WWs is abuse? LOL. GVs rolling onto an enemy
field is "abuse"? 12 WWs sitting in a group is "abuse".
If these are the best examples of "abuse" you can provide then i must surmise that
the purpose of your posts is to provide comedy to the readers.
<S>
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Soupcan, your literal interpretation can only be taken as an attempt to pick a fight.
It is being abused the same way the chog was. Through over-use by a large majority. Gee, guess what happened to the chog? And it was ONLY 25% of the total aircraft use, the WW is well above that marker.
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Krusty the only right tactic against the WW is the one that satisfies your criteria for success. If success means taking zero risk in being hit by it, then yes, abstention is the right tactic.
If killing it like the one-trick pony it is, is 'success', then all you need to do is tag-team it, and/or fly an unpredictable path. Any burst of bullets on target will kill the turret, any very accurate 250lb will kill it, and anything equal to or bigger than 500lbs is easy enough for anyone who practiced just a dozen dive-bombing runs to kill or disable the WW.
Like someone said, if you have film of someone hitting you from 2.5-3K, that's another issue, as the 'stock' WW reaches only to 1.7.
" Sometimes, like what happened a couple weeks ago, you get WWs escorting panzers and tigers that camp ON your RUNWAYS (ignoring the town) in a totally disruptive mission."
I don't see what the problem is, here. Sounds like a successful use of tactics by them.
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Oleg please compare this proportion to the proportion of players that ignore ACM, SA, proper gunnery, tactics, and general furballing dynamics. You'll find they're pretty much the same.
Your helping to make a case for the unperking of every vehicle and aircraft in the game. Please keep at it! :aok
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Unperking everything would have the same mass of players that go straight for the path of least resistence now, go for the least difficult planes to fly.
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I'm not sure I want an arena full of Temps. I'd rather have one full of Wirbels- there's always the option to flee, and return with more ordnance. No Wirbel will chase you back to your field.
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Come on Krusty, you've got to know the numbers don't mean much when you've basically got two tools for the job. The Wirbel and the Osti are about it for semi-resillient manned AA guns, considering even the field guns go down from very little. The WW is more effective for the average Joe, but that is a good thing. I still cannot see the problem with the ground being able to strafe back. If we get more kinds of manned 20mm AA that divides the usage percentages up, will that make you feel better?
The WW situation is not really comparable to C-Hog situation. The C-Hog represents one of the best, if not the best, fighter planes in the game that is also an awesome attack plane, mated to the best gun package in the game. This from a field of over 100 airplanes. The WW basically represents a ground defense weapon that most people can actually make work. It is the "best" land-based AA weapon in the game in alot of ways, but the field is small and the bar is set pretty low for that acheivement.
Upped at a VH for a few minutes in an Osti to check out the new views last night. But it was pretty pointless. No strafers, a couple of in-and-out divebombers, mostly heavies coming in at medium altitudes to bomb the base into oblivion. No real target for either the Osti or the WW. I am not complaining mind you, this is what the attackers SHOULD be doing. If one wished to complain that the WW has made people too smart to fly right into flaks at low level and thus removed some sport from AA defense, one might have a point. :D
I don't have the figures, but I think, like, nearly 100% of aerial troop drop and re-supply sorties were done with the C-47. If that doesn't argue for perkage, I don't know what does. :D
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Fair enough, numbers alone don't, but effect on gameplay? With flaks and m16s you could still go in to a field. With WWs it's sheer suicide.
Steamrolling runways and towns is way easier as well.
Definitely an impact to gameplay, definitely rampaging through the arenas.
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Fair enough, numbers alone don't, but effect on gameplay? With flaks and m16s you could still go in to a field. With WWs it's sheer suicide.
Steamrolling runways and towns is way easier as well.
Definitely an impact to gameplay, definitely rampaging through the arenas.
If you don't know how to bomb, yes. Anyone who's got two weeks of practice, and 2x500 or 2x1000 under him means it's suicide for the WWs.
The WW makes it so that GVs have 1:1 odds now, as opposed to (e.g.) 2 Osties and an M16 needed to kill 1 guy who knows how to dive bomb. As for nests of WWs, or WWs+OW+etc, that's begging for carpet bombing. Considering that formations aren't perked, it'd be hard to perk the WW when any guy who knows how to calibrate could wipe em all out in one salvo without spending a single perk.
It's starting to sound like the guys who want the WW perked just don't want more gameplay and tactics diversity.
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If you don't know how to bomb, yes. Anyone who's got two weeks of practice, and 2x500 or 2x1000 under him means it's suicide for the WWs.
The WW makes it so that GVs have 1:1 odds now, as opposed to (e.g.) 2 Osties and an M16 needed to kill 1 guy who knows how to dive bomb. As for nests of WWs, or WWs+OW+etc, that's begging for carpet bombing. Considering that formations aren't perked, it'd be hard to perk the WW when any guy who knows how to calibrate could wipe em all out in one salvo without spending a single perk.
Unperked bombers wiping out unperked WW...brilliant. :aok
Though I have to admit Krusty, I do like what the effect the WW is having for the defensive more than the offensive...if you could somehow only perk it on offensive missions, I might go along.
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There's no reason to perk it so long as all it takes to counter its ease of use is a single well-placed 500 pounder or opportunistic small burst of bullets of pretty much any caliber.
A lowered ENY will be enough to balance its effectiveness.
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I think we should start to use more effective mission planning.
IIRC (I haven't looked) the mission planned allows for planes to take off at varying intervals and from different bases. We should start to see an SEAD strike of maybe three planes moving in a few minutes ahead of the rest of the mission to take out the VH and begin deacking before the bulk of the force arrives to vulch and take town down.
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Unperking everything would have the same mass of players that go straight for the path of least resistence now, go for the least difficult planes to fly.
Like they do now, choosing the least difficult (and most effective too) AA vehicle?
262 is easily avoided and need only few 12mm in cockpit to kill, definitely it must not be perked :rolleyes:
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The way I see it, summarized:
Fighters can't roam about strafing everything on the ground with near-impunity anymore, using the gun instead of the bomb to disable GVs and destroy stuff. Bombers have got to actually get above the treetops to survive, as opposed to the old "lanc stuka" act. Defenders actually stand a chance. Wanna vulch, you at least gotta egg the crap out of the place first. There is an actual defense to use against vulching, rather than giving vulchers alot of kills by just upping like suicidal lemmings until you overwhelm them with sheer numbers.
Dive-bombers still take out hangars and GVs with very little risk from guys in WWs, bombers above 6,000 feet are still practically invulnerable to AA weapons and are able to bomb them into oblivion. Dive-bombers...heavy level bombers...maybe with time there will be actual organized attempts to both intercept and escort them! (A man can dream...) This, IMO, is tending more towards the way the "war" ought to be waged, as opposed to bunches of NOE 110s in quick-grab raids 80% of the time.
Heres the thing: Does the WW change the gameplay some. Yes. But I see most of the changes the WW brings as positives.
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This thread is still going strong? Oh well. :eek:
BTW, Soupcan that is a sweet sweet Macci in your avatar. :aok I love that plane, and hope one day it will recieve a face lift from the powers that be. :D
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I don't think it should be perked for couple of reasons
1. It can be taken out by even the smallest of bombs
2. It has the range of a sword
3. See the first 2 reasons :lol
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After reading all the post on this thread I would agree not to perk it...And Like Van said just lower the ENY of the thing. It does make the game a little more challenging and I think that is a good thing.
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Oh come on... you guys don't think that 5 perkies would be worth it? A good WW can get those back in one sortie. I may not have many perks myself, but I'm all for a more extensive perk system to avoid hangar queens. 5 perks would discourage abuse of it, and its not like you have to lose those 5 perks during a base defense. Just park yourself on concrete and when your turret is killed, just .ef
That way, you don't lose your perks, but for those people who don't know how to properly use it, they wouldn't overuse it and they'd be forced to....oh I don't know.... USE AN OSTIE? or even the M-16? I haven't heard a good reason why NOT to perk it...just people saying one of the following...
1. "Stop whining, learn not to get killed by them"
2. "I don't think its abused"
3. "NO"
The point is not to ruin anyones fun, but instead to avoid rampant numbers. While I agree that a lower ENY should fix the problem, it likely won't since 90% of the time ENY is zero anyway. I also agree with the suggestion that the agility of the turret may be overstated in the game, and reducing that would help relieve some of the complaints of how easy it is to use. I use the WW and even I agree that it is a bit too easy to get kills.
The other thing, which is only slightly related, is the Vulch complaint... I personally don't see why people fuss. I'm no fighter pilot, and as a result I've rarely been a part of a vulch, but I've been vulched many times and find it just an aspect of war. How often would planes be destroyed on the ground? Quite often. Well, since we can't destroy them before people start to take off, then vulching will just have to do...especially with how easy it is for one fighter or bomber to kill a goon and/or its troops. When it becomes harder for a single plane to wreck an entire base capture, then I'll be more for steps to eliminate the vulch, but until then, I think the better ack is as good as anything.
Anywho, that's my take on it. If you're not going to perk it (even small perks, just as a deterrent like the Sherman), then some drastic measures should be made to reduce its ubiquitous use.
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Ummm my fix for the wirbel is i now bomb them from 1.5k as soon as i see icon range its bombs away. Just take 2 mins more to get some alt. 85% percent of people cant hit u from that far and if they do u maybe lose a part or 2 but ive rarely gotten hit using this tactic. If u cant divebomb from that far out go offline and practice on the stationary gv's.I believe humans were blessed with a gift its called adaption use it. Im all for lowering the eny of it tho. Just my $0.2.
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Like they do now, choosing the least difficult (and most effective too) AA vehicle?
Yeah, a lot like a group of whiners are complaining about one ground vehicle that takes just 1 bomb to kill and 1 burst of guns to disable.
262 is easily avoided and need only few 12mm in cockpit to kill, definitely it must not be perked " :rolleyes: "
Where are the turbojets on the WW, that allow it to zoom out of the way of bombs, rockets, and bullets at 100mph more than anything else in the arena?
Oh come on... you guys don't think that 5 perkies would be worth it? A good WW can get those back in one sortie.
Not with the lower ENY it's guaranteed to get, it won't.
I may not have many perks myself, but I'm all for a more extensive perk system to avoid hangar queens. 5 perks would discourage abuse of it
What abuse?
I haven't heard a good reason why NOT to perk it...just people saying one of the following...
1. "Stop whining, learn not to get killed by them"
2. "I don't think its abused"
3. "NO"
You're either blind or thick. Refute those three answers.
The point is not to ruin anyones fun,
How, by requiring players to do something else than suicide into the WW's cone of fire? Learning ACM? Tactics?
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I've said why not to perk it repeatedly, because I think the effects it has on gameplay are IMO mostly positive. I realize that is a matter of opinion, but I think its effect on gameplay, not how many Ostis and M-16s are being used, is what the debate revolves around. (WW still can't punch down large airplanes at the range Osti does, and still can't carry troops BTW.)
Lower ENY would certainly keep it from being an easy vehicle to rack up GV perks in, while still allowing its use, so yeah, no problem with that.
The WW is a highly effective AA weapon out to 1.5K. I wouldn't call it "EASY" to rack kills up on, except on planes that are practically strafing you. Still requires the problematical art of deflection shooting on targets moving hundreds of miles per hour. I guess it is a matter of opinion, I don't think the WW is a problem, I think the lack of an AA weapon as effective as the WW was a problem.
"5 perks would discourage abuse of it, and its not like you have to lose those 5 perks during a base defense. Just park yourself on concrete and when your turret is killed, just .ef"
Don't know how much 5 perks would reduce the use. Possibly quite abit. Keep in mind, the Sherman was perked because it proved a very deadly tank in direct combat with a range of OTHER tanks. I don't think anyone wants the WW perked so people will use the Osti/M-16 more, I think they want it perked because of the effect it has on gamplay. But, taking the % use arguement at face value, that strikes me as rather like perking the P-51D for the sole purpose of making people use the B more, or the C.205 to give the C.202 more play, or the "Big three" buffs to get more Ju-88s in the air.
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Not with the lower ENY it's guaranteed to get, it won't.
If you perk it, then I don't know that the ENY has to be reduced.
As far as "What abuse?", it's the abuse when a VH pops and within 30 seconds, 6+ WW are spreading out onto the field. (I actually counted 11 pop out in the 30 seconds it took me to line up the VH and drop my bombs during one base capture... I did get 3 kills though which was cool). That's what I mean by abuse...
And I just don't find a lot of substance in those three answers... they don't provide a good explenation of why the person feels it shouldn't be perked. And I did look back and find many people say that its range should prevent the perking...and I can agree with that. That's also a good explenation on why NOT to perk it. I'm ok with that.
Don't know how much 5 perks would reduce the use. Possibly quite abit. Keep in mind, the Sherman was perked because it proved a very deadly tank in direct combat with a range of OTHER tanks. I don't think anyone wants the WW perked so people will use the Osti/M-16 more, I think they want it perked because of the effect it has on gamplay. But, taking the % use arguement at face value, that strikes me as rather like perking the P-51D for the sole purpose of making people use the B more, or the C.205 to give the C.202 more play, or the "Big three" buffs to get more Ju-88s in the air.
I don't see it as quite the same as flying 51's and 205's.... there are many alternatives to those and many people fly many different airplanes. I agree the 202 is never used, but that's because it really doesn't have any advantage over the 205... I've seen the 51B flown as effectively as the D though. But in some ways, this is why I endorse a more extensive Perk system that uses various levels of perkdom. I'm not talking about spending 40-50 perks per plane, I'm talking about many planes in the 3-10 range. This would encourage more skill to be built in planes before taking advantage of pure performance. Small amount of perk requirements may also encourage people to protect their planes a bit more and I certainly think you could see more of the "hangar queens". I don't mean for it to extensively limit a planes usage, just to provide some accountability with the planes that one flies.
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As far as "What abuse?", it's the abuse when a VH pops and within 30 seconds, 6+ WW are spreading out onto the field. (I actually counted 11 pop out in the 30 seconds it took me to line up the VH and drop my bombs during one base capture... I did get 3 kills though which was cool). That's what I mean by abuse...
AA GVs being used in an AA role is abuse? Good luck winning anyone over with that reasoning.
I don't see it as quite the same as flying 51's and 205's.... there are many alternatives to those and many people fly many different airplanes.
The 51 is the single most prevalent aircraft. Also, perking all the more popular aircraft only limits the newer players who need a crutch, and practically serves them up on a platter to the rest of us. Always a bad idea.
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AA GVs being used in an AA role is abuse? Good luck winning anyone over with that reasoning.
Ahhh... but when did 11 AA GV's pop up out of nowhere from a newly repaired Vehicle factory? If there were some sort of limiting factor on how often a certain GV could be spawned (which we all know doesn't make sense for Aces High) then it would make more sense. Trust me, I know how absurd my argument sounds when applied to non-game logic, but that number of GV's pouring out does a lot to break the realism sensation of AcesHigh. And keep in mind, this realism sensation is one of the most valuable things in any simulation, especially flight simulations. My objection has nothing to do with what role people are using them in.
...perking all the more popular aircraft only limits the newer players who need a crutch, and practically serves them up on a platter to the rest of us. Always a bad idea.
I can't disagree with that...but I didn't say perk ALL of the popular aircraft, I said a more extensive perk system. I absolutely agree that there has to be a few good "crutch" planes that are free to use, but that doesn't mean they have to be the best. For example give them the 51B instead of a 51D. Performance specs aren't that drastically worse. So maybe 8 times out of 10 a new player dies in a 51B as opposed to 7 times out of 10 they die in a 51D...it encourages them to become the better pilot and win the dogfight. We have a large enough selection of planes that a plane set can be made freely available that are competitive and still have better planes available for perk. We have something like 5+ spits, 47s and 109s, so make some of them perked. I have faith that HTC could choose how to balance the field.
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I think Wirbelwind must be perked for same reasons as Firefly - overuse, and to keep Osti and m16 in service.
But sure, HTC will wait some time before final decision, its too early to say does it really deserve perk cost or not.
Btw, vulching is bad :rofl
What kind of logic is that? What constitutes "overuse"??
Are you guys trying to say that if something is popular to use, that it then has to be perked?? If so, let's start perking popular planes like the LA-7 and bf110-G2. Or what about Lancasters? Aren't they "overused"?
Ground forces are still at huge disadvantage Wirbelwind or no. The Wirbel, the Osti, and the M16 are all very easy to kill. It does not take very much firepower to take out the guns on any of them. I agree with those here who have argued that all folks have to do is learn some better skills and tactics. And if that happens, then the quality of play in this game will be better.
The Wirbel has brought a little more balance to this game. Air forces still have a huge advantage, but at least now ground forces have a slightly better chance of defending themselves.
And it has also made the game much more realistic and accurate too. In the reality of WWII, a lot of JABO planes were lost to ground fire, not other aircraft. So if you don't like being killed by a Wirbel, then go find a big free-for-all on the map, and join in the dogfight. And if you want to fly JABO, then learn proper JABO tactics.
But don't complain here about the Wirbel being too popular. A big part of that is partially because it is a new toy. The M16 still has twice the speed of a Wirbel, and the Osti still has much better firepower for taking down a greater number of town buildings. A number of people had also stopped using the Osti, after the view got so badly messed up in the original update.
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As far as "What abuse?", it's the abuse when a VH pops and within 30 seconds, 6+ WW are spreading out onto the field. (I actually counted 11 pop out in the 30 seconds it took me to line up the VH and drop my bombs during one base capture... I did get 3 kills though which was cool). That's what I mean by abuse...
That is not abuse. That is a typical LTAR-type defense of a field under vulch. And, by the way, by typical I mean well before the wirbelwind when you had a choice between an Ostiwind and an M16.
The only difference is that now people other than LTARs are willing to do it more regularly. That isn't a bad thing. It is what AA vehicles were put in the game for.
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Love the WW. I don't even use it that much. I like seeing it kill countrymen just as much as I like seeing it kill enemies. Reason? The people it kills are low and slow hanging over a runway, doing nothing other than waiting for a plane to appear.
Just kill the VH. Then cleanup with bombs. If you want to attack a base, use bombs to kill the leftover gvs, then move onto vulching with your 20mm cannons on the magically appearing airplanes. I mean seriously are people really that dense? Or is it just laziness? Or is it they are realizing they can't land kills unless it's against stationary targets, on the ground, that they don't even need to actually score a direct hit on to kill. Can you not adapt to a new situation? And it's not even that big of a change.
Thank you HTC for raising the bar. Tired of seeing scrubs who think they are awesome because they can vulch (prior to patch) with impunity. Please do not perk the WW.
Yours is probably the most eloquent and common sense post in this thread. ( at least as far as I have read at this point )
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needs to be perked, i cant even dive bomb fields without 90% chance of death from those things.
You need to release your bombs a little higher up, just like they did in WWII.
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I told about majority of players who couldnt lead in osti anyway (me, for example).
So your lack of shooting skill ( and others who you claim are like you ) should be a factor?
Buy a shotgun, and take up bird hunting or clay target shooting. You will then quickly learn that in order to hit something flying in the air, you have to aim at where it is going, and not at it.
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And as for the distence thing i had ont of the LTAR squad take out two of me B24's and my Altitude was 7.5, wish I would of filmed it for you guys..
Cajunn
I have heard absolutely no one on our squad make such a fantastic claim.
The consensus that I have heard discussed among us is that its effective range in the game is about 1.5k
Read the earlier posts about the target tests that have been done with it. It is pointless to shoot the Wirbel's guns at anything beyond 2k You are virtually wasting ammo if you do.
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So having 20 airplanes flying up and down runways for 20 mins vulching is "balancing"? Thats about all the WW is good for anyways. Base defense against low flying aircraft. And in reality 20mm AA cannon was always very dangerous to low flying attack airplanes. Yes the Whirbel calls for a change in tactics but its hardly "unbalancing". Well, maybe for runway vulchers it is. :lol
You are absolutely right on here with your remarks.
The Wirbelwind is bringing a little more balance and reality into the game, which apparently some folks cannot handle.
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I get bracketed by a couple of folks whom I shant name at 2.5-3k well outside icon range of even their GV from me, and they are VERY close to hitting me (rounds missing me by inches) as well as any shot they fire inside 1.5k is instant kill, even at bad angles on highly-manuvering planes.
Like I said, I won't name names til the films are submitted to HTC. :noid
So what are you trying to imply by this? That using a Wirbelwind is somehow cheating??
Gee Whiz, give us all here a break!
I am quite a good shot with a shotgun, so I know a thing or two about leading aerial targets. I certainly don't get INSTANT 1.5k range kills with the Wirbel. Not even if the plane is heading straight at me.
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If you have a problem with the wirby's then kill the damn VH.
Problem solved :aok
No, No, No!! Don't tell him that. :cry :cry :cry
It is already becoming far too common when our squad is online and up to strength, that when folks discover they are up against us, they immediately go after our VH's
Don't you realize how upsetting it is for LTAR's to not have a VH??? :mad: :mad:
Please don't do anything more to encourage this tactic.
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I think we should start to use more effective mission planning.
IIRC (I haven't looked) the mission planned allows for planes to take off at varying intervals and from different bases. We should start to see an SEAD strike of maybe three planes moving in a few minutes ahead of the rest of the mission to take out the VH and begin deacking before the bulk of the force arrives to vulch and take town down.
Man alive, all of this talk of using strategy and tactics!! It is so much easier to play against mindless and disorganized opponents.
Are planning and tactics what this game is supposed to be about??? :D :D
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The other thing, which is only slightly related, is the Vulch complaint... I personally don't see why people fuss. I'm no fighter pilot, and as a result I've rarely been a part of a vulch, but I've been vulched many times and find it just an aspect of war.
Yes, but the reality of war was such that if you did that, field AA would often get you. The Wirbel is simply making the game much more accurate and historically correct.
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Out of his way, folks!! He's going for the RECORD!! :O
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If you perk it, then I don't know that the ENY has to be reduced.
As far as "What abuse?", it's the abuse when a VH pops and within 30 seconds, 6+ WW are spreading out onto the field. (I actually counted 11 pop out in the 30 seconds it took me to line up the VH and drop my bombs during one base capture... I did get 3 kills though which was cool). That's what I mean by abuse...
OMG Swatch, that is what you call "ABUSE"?
What you are witnessing is the "GUNS UP" command being given by the LTAR squad leader. Everyone in the squad immediately drops what they are doing, and comes pouring out of the VH in a Flak just like a bunch of angry fire ants to defend the base. Our SQUAD has been using this tactic for many, many years. It is thus hardly anything at all new since the Wirbelwind came out. Many other squads have adopted this tactic also. So it is certainly not anything unique to our squad anymore either.
Are you trying to say that you consider organized squad play abuse?? Give us a break here.......
LTARglok
ADMITTED SWATCH ABUSER
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That is not abuse. That is a typical LTAR-type defense of a field under vulch. And, by the way, by typical I mean well before the wirbelwind when you had a choice between an Ostiwind and an M16.
The only difference is that now people other than LTARs are willing to do it more regularly. That isn't a bad thing. It is what AA vehicles were put in the game for.
Alas, too many people are getting to know LTAR tactics, as the squad has been around so very long.
I was also amazed that he considered this to be abuse. :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
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Glok,
I agree with everything you say, but I DO have the attention span to read a single multi-point post instead of a handful of short ones. :D
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If you perk it, then I don't know that the ENY has to be reduced.
As far as "What abuse?", it's the abuse when a VH pops and within 30 seconds, 6+ WW are spreading out onto the field. (I actually counted 11 pop out in the 30 seconds it took me to line up the VH and drop my bombs during one base capture... I did get 3 kills though which was cool). That's what I mean by abuse...
And I just don't find a lot of substance in those three answers... they don't provide a good explenation of why the person feels it shouldn't be perked. And I did look back and find many people say that its range should prevent the perking...and I can agree with that. That's also a good explenation on why NOT to perk it. I'm ok with that.
You are joking right? What? Just because you're in bombers or Jabo and participating in an "attempt at a capture" type mission, folks are BARRED from actually putting up a fight? Perks or no perks, ENY or No ENY, I hope HTC leaves the WW AS IT IS.
As Brauno stated, before the WW you had the Ostie and the M16. I consider myself near the Top in the AA's. I'm good enough to state it without having a "bragging tag" applied to it. I always inform anyone over a field of my presence and they know that 9 times out of 10, I'm clearing them if they need help. It's the other one "victory" I cannot get, that keeps me going.
Hell, I've landed two 9 kill sorties in a FG and a 5 kill in one (in just the last two nights). Why do I mention this? Now more than ever, the attackers concentrate on the WW's and allow someone like myself to literally pick their attack apart.
"Abuse"?! Man, you need to re-evaluate on why you play this game.
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Look, I don't mean to keep this flame war going... I've said what I wanted to say and made my position on them known. Anyway, the more important thing to me is the overall use of the perk system... I feel it can be expanded to many other planes without drastically hurting gameplay at different skill levels while promoting a wider use of all vehicles and development of greater piloting skills. If you find everything else that I've said in this thread rubbish, please at least consider the positives of such a development in the perk system.
I look forward to flying and dying with all of you.
PS... I do have to ask LTARGlok though.... were all those posts really necessary?
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Look, I don't mean to keep this flame war going... I've said what I wanted to say and made my position on them known. Anyway, the more important thing to me is the overall use of the perk system... I feel it can be expanded to many other planes without drastically hurting gameplay at different skill levels while promoting a wider use of all vehicles and development of greater piloting skills. If you find everything else that I've said in this thread rubbish, please at least consider the positives of such a development in the perk system.
I look forward to flying and dying with all of you.
PS... I do have to ask LTARGlok though.... were all those posts really necessary?
I've reached the apex of my AA skills. Now you want to punish me for it?
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That wasn't what I said, please read it again and I meant no disrespect toward your skills.
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Keep in mind. The WW is NOT effective at the ranges that the Ostie has, nor the FG. EACH AA has it's own strength and MANY weaknesses. However, the WW will have a neutering effect on the vultchers.
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Yep.. thread is still here.....
Man The WW is not all that great if you say high and don't vulch unless you smash the VH. I thought the logic here is simple enough. Now the Ostie will still pop you at range but the WW wont, generally speaking. Besides that they are open topped turrets, large caliber projectiles and or bombs will do nicely to pop them.
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Yeah, a lot like a group of whiners are complaining about one ground vehicle that takes just 1 bomb to kill and 1 burst of guns to disable.
Again, 262 need just few right placed 12mm to kill and you can shot him from 6 w/o risk been shot back ;) All you need is right tactics lol
Where are the turbojets on the WW, that allow it to zoom out of the way of bombs, rockets, and bullets at 100mph more than anything else in the arena?
You dont need 100mph to avoid bombs dropped from 1.5k
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I've said why not to perk it repeatedly, because I think the effects it has on gameplay are IMO mostly positive.
WW made AH better for sure. And (surprise! surprise!) nobody ask to remove WW or perk it with tiger/262 price. Say 5 perks will not stop ppl from using WW but they will not use it all the time. Just like Firefly, for example.
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yeah... perk the rascal... but not much
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WW made AH better for sure. And (surprise! surprise!) nobody ask to remove WW or perk it with tiger/262 price. Say 5 perks will not stop ppl from using WW but they will not use it all the time. Just like Firefly, for example.
If you perk it even a little, I'm afraid only real GVers will drive it and at least half the duffers currently shooting in one discouraging tree-top strafers and NOE bombers and keeping the runways open will be gone. Even people who shoot as poorly as me help with overall volume of fire. And alot of those who still drive it will type .ef as soon as they hear the whistle of ords, instead, of manning the guns until they get blown up. Which one should always do, if the bombs get the VH, then maybe they don't get you, and if the bombs get you without getting the VH, then you get another and return to the defense.
Indeed, it is sad that the fine art of lobbing the 37mm may become uncommon, I have been trying to use the Osti along with the WW some just to try to keep whatever tiny amount of skill I ever had in the thing and compliment the ubiquitous WWs, but I am unwilling to perk the WW just to force people to do as I do.
But the ENY really should be lowered, ~14 GV points for three airplane kills in a WW is ridiculous. Manning a WW should not be an easy way of buying Tiger/Sherman time.
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On the contrary, if it encourages defending fields, which results in more actual fighting over things (the main component of gameplay), then perkfarming in it is just fine. Besides, it's pretty easy to rack up GV points as it is, so I don't really think earning points is that much of an issue. If you're determined, you're going to get them in something, be it the WW, M8, T34, M16, or whatever strikes your fancy.