Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Axis vs Allies => Topic started by: 10thmd on March 31, 2008, 09:52:46 PM
-
First why do the Brtis get CV's??? They never brought anything close to France for fear the Bismark would sink an entire fleet.
Second since we are dealing with a limited plane set why is the CV hardness at 2.5? Right now the allies have 3 cv's parked off of Frances coast beating the tar out of us and we can't do a thing about it.
Third where are our shore batterys? I've been to Normandy and the busted bunkers are still there to this day. :mad:
For an arena thats supposed to be about historical matches you guys sure are giving this one to the Allies on a silver platter.
This needs to change its not even close to what the BOB was.
Anything I missed Axis players feel free to add on.
-
Historical perspective? Trust me, I'm the choir. But it's not the staff that needs to be appealed to in this. I guess there's two ways to go. Appeal to the players dedicated to making BoB into D-Day 1941. Or accept alternate reality and suspend disbelief and dive in. Sorry. That seems to be the most practical routes. The second has a better chance of success than the first - even though it probably less appealing (eh, it's reliant on ourselves .... that's always been a better percentage of success than reliance on a group).
I think getting staff to force air to air on the BoB map would result in a mass exit of 90% of the Axis players and half the Allied players which would be even worse than Admiral Bulldog turning BoB into the Normandy invasion.
-
Axis had C110 at the start of the war. You guys took a number of Vbases in the south of england with it untill it was sailed off the coast of dover and sunk by our CV. You guys were launching Ju88s, Ju87s, Me109, and Me110s from it. Thats why we can roll our planes from our CVs.
-
Blame the CVs getting close to France on Larry :noid :t Do you guys have CVs? I honestly haven't checked but you must have a fleet of some sort? As far as I know the Brits had operational carriers in 1940 or earlier, sink them. Don't take for granted historical tactics will be used, there was no declaration of "Peace in our time" this time around. The Germans didn't build shore batteries en mass till late in the war when the threat invasion was imminent. What the Axis needs are Subs, that's what kept the British fleet close to home waters not the Bismark which they actively sought.
-
Still even if we had one Cv that counts for nothing. I just would like a little balance here or you will see 100% of dedicaded Axis players leave.
You try flying through the Ack of 3 Cv's it is barely possible.
-
Still even if we had one Cv that counts for nothing. I just would like a little balance here or you will see 100% of dedicaded Axis players leave.
You try flying through the Ack of 3 Cv's it is barely possible.
Thats why I did it. When you make a megafleet the guys bombing it almost never live long enough to get thier bombs off. I did the same thing with a few of the axis fleets last war. I watched for almost al hour as jabo after jabo came in. They didnt stand a chance and only got two eggs off. You guys took I think three or four bases with that fleet. If you would have taken a airfield or two next to each other you could have a foothold on enland. It wouldnt be hard to take P106 then sink the fleets then you would have a CV.
-
Someone slipping you Rufies again, TK?
:noid
-
I agree that this "BoB" setup is a wash. We had better BoB setups nearly a decade ago in warbirds. No cv's of death, and no gv's.
Historical perspective? Trust me, I'm the choir. But it's not the staff that needs to be appealed to in this.
Arlo, I fail to see why we should not appeal to the AvA staff. They create the arena, they can fix it. It was their choice to create a frankenstein BoB setup, now it's their job to kill the monster.
Axis had C110 at the start of the war. You guys took a number of Vbases in the south of england with it untill it was sailed off the coast of dover and sunk by our CV. You guys were launching Ju88s, Ju87s, Me109, and Me110s from it. Thats why we can roll our planes from our CVs.
That the axis could launch from the now-annihilated cv does not justify anything. That was wrong, and so is the allies doing it. There were no carrier aircraft used in the BoB. Therefore, they should not be in this AvA arena.
Do you guys have CVs? I honestly haven't checked but you must have a fleet of some sort? As far as I know the Brits had operational carriers in 1940 or earlier, sink them. Don't take for granted historical tactics will be used, there was no declaration of "Peace in our time" this time around. The Germans didn't build shore batteries en mass till late in the war when the threat invasion was imminent. What the Axis needs are Subs, that's what kept the British fleet close to home waters not the Bismark which they actively sought.
No, the axis does not have a CV at this time. Nothing. :eek: See my point above about carriers in the BoB.
-------------------------------------
Let's face it. If the British had had 3 dominant carrier groups patrolling the English channel in 1940, then the Battle of Britain would have never happened. The strategic scenario just isn't there. It's just the job of whoever sets up a historically based AvA arena to recreate the event as faithfully as possible; here cv's have been included just because they exist in the main arena. :rolleyes:
-
It's just the job of whoever sets up a historically based AvA arena to recreate the event as faithfully as possible; here cv's have been included just because they exist in the main arena. :rolleyes:
Presumptive reasoning. How do you know that was the motivation? What do you know about AHII setups versus Warbirds? Were you event or arena staff there? Have you been here? How many of the AvA staff do you even know on the basis of not only playing the game alongside them but interacting with them in forums and during events here?
Now that I've bombarded you with questions and you may be feeling like I'm picking on you for critisizing the AvA staff, let me assure you that I don't think the current setup is perfect, either. But let me also go so far as sharing that I've yet to see one that ever was ... even the ones I helped set up here in the past. I know you may not be asking for perfection ... but ... every single player that's played this arena ... long-term or short-term ... whether they give it a pass of fail ... has had something (or things) they thought needed addressing ... by the staff. And, trust me, for everything that needed addressing there was at least one other vocal player who either thought something else beared more pressing attention or disagreed with the first players's assessment altogether. Your and my general opinion on what physical arena elements seem broken may not be far apart. But your and my impression on not only who to blame but how much blame exists doesn't. I know that in the past, disabling the ability to capture by any method has reduced the playerbase as much as uncontrolled capture has. There's a balance.
There's only so much you can so with settings and dictation when it comes to fostering a supportive and dedicated playerbase for the AvA. It's always been the red-headed stepchild of AHII. It's a player mindset that'll create more problems than anything. I bet if you look closely enough at your experiences in Warbirds you'll see the same. Does the community put it's weight behind immersion ... historical immersion, especially? If so, it's the community, as a whole, that deserves credit and reaps the benefit. If not, it's the community, as a whole, that deserves blame and suffers the consequence. If the players don't care about it, whether through ignorance ("How come most of the fighters aren't enabled in the hanger?! Why isn't there a side for the Knights?! I'm a Knight?!) or ambivalence ("So what if the Allies weren't focused on liberating France during the Battle of Britain? The setup gave me the tools and this is what I like!") or a mixture ... it'll be the players that look for ways to play the game outside of historical perspective, no matter what the settings, that set the tone of the AvA. And for those who, ironically, seem the rare exception to the current AvA community mindset ... that of being actually into settings that provide greater historical immersion ... until they can organize, inspire and motivate the rest, they're stuck with what the rest of the community either actively does or blissfully puts up with . Look at TK's post. He helped facilitate and organize invasions to prove a point. To prove a point! But even he couldn't have done so if the players who followed along didn't want to and didn't think it was more fun than flying Spits and Hurris in their historical role of defending their island against inbound Luftwaffe bomber formations and fighter escort (which ... BTW ... ain't happening if the Axis players aren't there to do it or don't care to do it).
The atmosphere of the AvA has always been player driven, no matter how hands on the AvA staff decide to be. And it's not like any of the AvA staff are making a living being AvA staffers. They're players just like you ... many of whom have lives that don't allow baby-sitting the arena as much as the AvA community (which isn't banding together to help historical immersion all that much right now) sometimes demands. Quite honestly, if you think you can do a better job of it (and please try not to take offense .. you may well can) ... then write up your resume' of Warbirds experience and experiences, throw your hat in the ring and run with it. But I'm telling you, if you don't start with the community first (even as a dedicated non-staff player) and resort to making a habit of complaining about how it's all the staff's fault, whether you're selected to serve or not you may have to reap your own sowage in a negative way. That way being the continued sufferage of setups that don't meet your uncompromising standards because the community you failed to inspire as a peer doesn't appreciate a heavy hand and has four main arenas to choose from where they perceive there isn't as heavy a one.
-
argh .... quote isn't edit. :D
-
Still even if we had one Cv that counts for nothing. I just would like a little balance here or you will see 100% of dedicaded Axis players leave.
You try flying through the Ack of 3 Cv's it is barely possible.
Call the waghmbulance. You guys had your CV parked off V81 the first day. It's the reason you could take V81. It was sunk by the Brits, and now you whine because the Allies have CV's?
Get real, you're just po'd because you can't loiter in GB and get your 8 kills landed.
-
Myself and some of my guys swung by last night for a few rounds.
The numbers were pretty off to begin with for the first half hour so. Went up to about 8 vs 8 then the Axis guys starting leaving when they were getting their tulips wooped!!
Standing toe to toe with some Brits in Spits they werent gonna last long!
Some really good immersive fights though. Gian, thrila, bubi definately worth the entrance fee ;)
Say what you like about strategy or gameplay, having bases that close promotes some good close combat and I enjoyed every second. Its not about the winning or losing, just the taking part. I've never bought that line but in this case its totally true.
-
after reading the rest of this thread.
You have the ju88 and ju87stuka no?
Now 2 guys in each of those planes should be able to sink a cv no problems. If your moaning that 3 CV's are parked off shore, get in a damned plane and kill them. Unless you have no skills in that department.
-
Arlo, that's a thoughtful response. I can't possibly respond to all of that right now, maybe tomorrow.
I will say this: It's just the job of whoever sets up a historically based AvA arena to recreate the event as faithfully as possible
This is not presumptive reasoning, but merely reasoning from the premise that the arena is a historical setup. If you want to deny that the BoB AvA arena is supposed to be historical then we're on entirely different pages. :D
I have plenty of respect for the volunteer job of AvA staff and don't want to claim that "it's all their fault," just as I don't blame HTC for the stupid stuff I see people do in the MA.
:salute
-
edited ;for Oldman's sake
but i do have a craving for cheese
-
:aok
funny how the mighty "we are so great" Axis players run screaming like little girls the first time things don't go their way , run away run away , you would think that it was a South Pacific setup , your true colors are showing ,when you run away we can see the yellow strip down your back
Yuppers just like you said above to the Axis. Things go south for them and they cry foul, but when they can milk with impunity, everything's peachy.
:salute
Odee: Call the waghmbulance. You guys had your CV parked off V81 the first day. It's the {main} reason you could take V81. It was sunk by the Brits, and now you whine because the Allies have CV's?
Get real, you're just po'd because you can't loiter in GB and get your 8 kills landed.
-
.
-
Gentlemen, I have a question. In this scenario, the BoB, when a carrier is sunk does it re-gin or is it lost for the duration?
Bull
-
Allied CV's respawn, since they have ports, but ours was a one shot deal.
Honestly, I havent complained about anything so far... I dont like to. I havent complained that weve been outnumbered for the past 3 days, often with 3 to one odds, I havent complaned that once we actually have gotten numbers the Axis hasnt been able to get its toejam together and take a base, but when we got to that superfleet with 2 flights of 88s and 3 109E escorts and got obliterated by 5 inch guns before we could get over the CV (despite the fact that I was able to kill a flight of suicide bostons & land deadstick) I got pretty PO'ed.
-
You guys are new to the AvA so you might now know. The AvA is a historical arena but the CMs also have to make it fun for those who play. If they wanted to have the real BoB then the point wouldnt be to take twenty bases. It would be for the axis to bomb the crap outa the allies and the allies to defend thier fields and citys. Flying from the same bases from dover and pas de calais all week wouldnt be fun.
-
The hosiery mill called. The stockings to match your dress have arrived.
-
You guys are new to the AvA so you might now know. The AvA is a historical arena but the CMs also have to make it fun for those who play. If they wanted to have the real BoB then the point wouldnt be to take twenty bases. It would be for the axis to bomb the crap outa the allies and the allies to defend thier fields and citys. Flying from the same bases from dover and pas de calais all week wouldnt be fun*.
*For ... you. Whether you speak for the majority, regarding that, or someone like me does regarding historical immersion is a matter of opinion and perspective, I suppose .... though it can be proven in both practice and debate**. It may also be a matter of inspiring the arena to think a certain way. I've seen you work hard to inspire the RISK style play you've worked your entire AHII existance perfecting ... in others. Under such attitude and practices you claim to support this arena fervently. I've seen those others drawn to the piper's pipe. And, to be quite honest, if you're there tooting that song more often than a part-timer like me is there to toot a different tune then it's not surprising that you get more players to join your brand of fun than I manage to do mine. Maybe even if the tables were turned and you only made weekend appearances (and even then, limited) and I did live in the AvA, the ratio of historical immersion addicts in the one static arena that approximates an historical setting would be outnumbered by the revolving influx of MA players who only bother adjusting to a two-sided world, a limited planeset featuring segregation and not much more than that before they bore anyway and rededicate themselves to the larger late MA Orange (only going to the other late MA when it's full).
I'm fully aware of the irony of my above sentiments given my decision to spend most of my time on rebuilding and fostering an historical squadron sporting a persona that isn't offered much opportunity to exist in the AvA ... especially given my strong attraction to more historically immersive settings, terrains and planesets that the MA doesn't provide (my squadron's ride being available on a pretty steady basis there, though). I just don't think everyone else (perhaps some but certainly not all) outside my squad can appreciate the irony as much as I, though. :)
**My further introspection (following) may be my own undoing.
-
Another question:
Are we on this map until one side or the other can take and hold 20 bases or will this map change on Friday?
Maj OldBull
XO Avengers
-
If they wanted to have the real BoB then the point wouldnt be to take twenty bases. It would be for the axis to bomb the crap outa the allies and the allies to defend thier fields and citys. Flying from the same bases from dover and pas de calais all week wouldnt be fun.
This is exactly what I want, except for the flying from the same bases part. It would be easy to set targets all around the UK that the axis is supposed to bomb, and set victory conditions on how well they do it.
-
It would be easy to set targets all around the UK that the axis is supposed to bomb, and set victory conditions on how well they do it.
Maybe it would. Maybe it wouldn't. I might suggest whipping up the details of how you'd set that up and sharing it with the AvA staff. Any technical questions also sent to them. I really am with you in this. :salute :)
-
I like the way it is, for the most part. I don't mind that Germany is getting it's bellybutton kicked up north by 46/44/ whatever other bases are up there, thats our fault. What is not fair, is the fact that the Allies have 3 constantly respawning CV's and we had one, that did not respawn, as we have no ports. That, coupled with the fact that CV hardness is 3.0, we have no shore batteries, and the new CV's have laser ack, which isnt even so bad until you have three lined up so close that the CV groups are inter-twining. It is almost IMPOSSIBLE for us to make ANY headway in this with the current setup.
-
It is almost IMPOSSIBLE for us to make ANY headway in this with the current setup.
I think one of the things under contention is the definition of "making headway" and what that means to the AvA community, as a whole. If the CVs presented no invasion threat (all spawning disabled from them) would bombing them be a priority or navigating around them (doable) to bomb England be one?
-
I like the way it is, for the most part. I don't mind that Germany is getting it's bellybutton kicked up north by 46/44/ whatever other bases are up there, thats our fault. What is not fair, is the fact that the Allies have 3 constantly respawning CV's and we had one, that did not respawn, as we have no ports. That, coupled with the fact that CV hardness is 3.0, we have no shore batteries, and the new CV's have laser ack, which isnt even so bad until you have three lined up so close that the CV groups are inter-twining. It is almost IMPOSSIBLE for us to make ANY headway in this with the current setup.
no offense, but i think they call that strategy. good show TK!! :)
-
no offense, but i think they call that strategy. good show TK!! :)
Game strategy. Yes ... that's what it's called. And, depending on the actual goal of the setup (and the community, for that matter), perhaps accolades are called for. Perhaps not. Those that feel they are ... will present them. Some may hold off and assess/reassess the merit of the situation.
-
Game strategy. Yes ... that's what it's called. And, depending on the actual goal of the setup (and the community, for that matter), perhaps accolades are called for. Perhaps not. Those that feel they are ... will present them. Some may hold off and assess/reassess the merit of the situation.
I propose re-assessing flying under the banner of a Jagdgeschwader while one's crate is loaded with limes, for one.
Only thing sillier would be flying in a RAF squad with a Balkenkreuz painted on one's wing.
Just curious, why no shore batteries? I can abide the CV clusterf*** (technical term I learned in the Army) steaming in unorganized circles like some helpless mob. Heck even their uber hardness and aircraft on them is no big deal. But no shore batteries to keep the CV's from stopping on the beach for a barbecue is asinine and un-historic.
-
no offense, but i think they call that strategy. good show TK!! :)
Call what strategy?
Taking our bases in northern France/Belgium/The Netherlands/ whatever that geographic region is? Sure. The allies are rolling us there and doing a good job of it. The axis, since TK left, has been very disorganised & were trying to pick up the peices. Theres no reason to whine about that, and I applaud the allies for their efforts up north.
However, camping 3 carrier groups off shore with an invincible umbrella of 5 inchers, sending in wave after wave of suicide bostons, against an enemy with almost no means of defense, is not strategy.
-
Allied CV's respawn, since they have ports, but ours was a one shot deal.
Honestly, I have complained about anything so far... I dont like to. I have complained that we've been outnumbered for the past 3 days, often with 3 to one odds, I have complained that once we actually have gotten numbers the Axis has been able to get its poop together and take a base, but when we got to that superfleet with 2 flights of 88s and 3 109E escorts and got obliterated by 5 inch guns before we could get over the CV (despite the fact that I was able to kill a flight of suicide Bostons & land deadstick) I got pretty Pond.
and now the shoe is on the other foot , last two "War" events went the same for allies ,at least the allied team doesn't rub your face in it at every possible chance
and just like for us the last two times the more things get away from you the worse it feels hu ? Time for a gut check . Or you can run away to the mid war with the other cowards
-
Whens the last time we had 3 cv's to your zero? We merely kicked your azz. It was our organisational prowess over ours. Im not complaining about YOUR organisational strength over OURS. Thats our bad. I've even complimented you on it, as its quite an accomplishment to come out of the ashes like the allies did. YOU, however, have an unfair advantage that cannot be overcome, in that you have 3 infinately spawning CV's and we have none.
-
Whens the last time we had 3 cv's to your two?...
The recent Japan set up as I recall.
-
Whens the last time we had 3 cv's to your two? We merely kicked your azz. It was our organisational prowess over ours. Im not complaining about YOUR organisational strength over OURS. Thats our bad. I've even complimented you on it, as its quite an accomplishment to come out of the ashes like the allies did. YOU, however, have an unfair advantage that cannot be overcome, in that you have 3 infinately spawning CV's and we have none.
Cannot be overcome , come now with that attitude you never will ! AND see "WE kicked your AZZ" ,yep that you did, now we are returning the favor , How dose it feel? I hope you let this go while i still have respect for you ,and i feel your pain , but the way you talk you have already given up ,
The recent Japan set up as I recall.
don't forget the italy map too
-
The recent Japan set up as I recall.
You mean, the one where we didn't have any until we started complaining about it? :rolleyes:
yep that you did, now we are returning the favor , How dose it feel? I hope you let this go while i still have respect for you ,and i feel your pain , but the way you talk you have already given up ,
How many times have I said now that I dont mind that your killing us in France, its the hordes of suicide CV launched bostons thats the problem? I ENJOY actually having to struggle against the enemy. I DONT enjoy fighting an invincible enemy.
I just realised I typed two, lol.... Axis doesnt have ANY CV's on this map.
-
What do you know about AHII setups versus Warbirds?
Easy. Many of us have played, and do play, both.
-
Easy. Many of us have played, and do play, both.
Many have. It was a specific question to a specific individual based on their specific requests versus their specific experiences. NOT a generality. If you have some specific suggestions then I suppose I can present this specific question to you, as well, and you can follow up ... but follow up on the entire text and suggestions, if you will. If you have ideas, the desire to present them and the willingness to volunteer to implement them, by all means.
-
First why do the Brtis get CV's??? They never brought anything close to France for fear the Bismark would sink an entire fleet.
Second since we are dealing with a limited plane set why is the CV hardness at 2.5? Right now the allies have 3 cv's parked off of Frances coast beating the tar out of us and we can't do a thing about it.
Third where are our shore batterys? I've been to Normandy and the busted bunkers are still there to this day. :mad:
For an arena thats supposed to be about historical matches you guys sure are giving this one to the Allies on a silver platter.
This needs to change its not even close to what the BOB was.
Anything I missed Axis players feel free to add on.
I agree that the carriers should not be present on either side.
As for the bunkers you saw in Normandy, the Atlantic Wall fortifications were not begun untill 1942 after Germany had already lost the Battle of Britain. So I can forgive the lack of those.
-
The Avengers are not complaining, in fact we are enjoying having to work a little harder for our Axis pay check. As for any Axis guys needing direction, we have posted some objectives, to work on as a team, in the Axis forums. <S>
-
The Avengers are not complaining, in fact we are enjoying having to work a little harder for our Axis pay check. As for any Axis guys needing direction, we have posted some objectives, to work on as a team, in the Axis forums. <S>
:salute Avengers
-
You mean, the one where we didn't have any until we started complaining about it? :rolleyes:
No, I mean the one where you started with ONE CV and took TWO of ours.
...I DONT enjoy fighting an invincible enemy.
This must be why you only ride LW, and take JU-87's, ME-109's and was it JU-88's off the CV you did have in BoB, but unfortunately lost. :rolleyes:
Call a waghmbulance please.
-
This must be why you only ride LW, and take JU-87's, ME-109's and was it JU-88's off the CV you did have in BoB, but unfortunately lost. :rolleyes:
You've lost at least one, also... probably more. But, since you have ports they just respawned. Thus, you have an infinite army of CV's.
I never flew a Ju88 off of a CV. I doubt it would be able to get off the deck with a full bombload. Plus, if you want to do your 'if Britain had CV's in the BoB', the Luftwaffe DID have operational carrier versions of the Bf109 and the Ju87, Though the Graf Zeppelin was never completed. And, the Bf109T was used in Defence of the Reich dutys even once the Graf Zeppelin was ditched. They were used by Jasta Helgoland which was absorbed by JG11 in 1944 IIRC to form 11./JG11, which used them with some success, though I dont know how much.
I'm not asking for much. I completely and wholeheartedly acknowelage that you are beating us. I just wish that we could fight on even ground.
This is supposed to be the Battle of Britain, not the Battle of the English Channel.
This must be why you only ride LW,
What does that have to do with anything? JG11 is a commited Luftwaffe squad, we dont fly anything but Luftwaffe aircraft. Thats what we choose to fly.
-
...Though the Graf Zeppelin was never completed. And, the Bf109T was used in Defence of the Reich dutys even once the Graf Zeppelin was ditched. They were used by Jasta Helgoland which was absorbed by JG11 in 1944 IIRC to form 11./JG11, which used them with some success, though I dont know how much.
Actually the Graf Zepplin was completed... and used as a target vessel after the war. It was the Flugzeugträger B that was scraped in 1940
Graf Zepplin Laid down: Deutsche Werke Kiel, 28.12.1936
Launched: 08.12.1938
Commissioned:
Fate: sunk 16.08.1947 (Baltic Sea)
Flugzeugträger B Laid down: Germaniawerft Kiel, 1938
Launched: 01.07.1940 (planned)
Commissioned:
Fate: incomplete ship scrapped 28.02.1940
source: http://www.german-navy.de/kriegsmarine/ships/carrier/index.html
:salute
-
Oh, right. Thanks :aok
11./JG11 was certainly outfitted with the 109T though. I have photographs :noid :noid
-
Oh, right. Thanks :aok
11./JG11 was certainly outfitted with the 109T though. I have photographs :noid :noid
All two of them? :rofl
Better check the production run of the "T"
-
'Activated on 7 April 1943 and commanded by Olt. Hermann Hintzen, Jagdstaffel Helgoland was unique in being equipped with the Bf.109T. This was a navalised, extended-span conversion of the basic Bf 109E originally intended for service aboard the never-to-be-completed aircraft carrier Graf Zeppelin.'
Keep in mind a Staffel usually consists of 12 aircraft.
(http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t5/AK_Comrade/109T.jpg)
-
Let me take this a couple pieces at a time...
Presumptive reasoning. How do you know that was the motivation? What do you know about AHII setups versus Warbirds? Were you event or arena staff there? Have you been here? How many of the AvA staff do you even know on the basis of not only playing the game alongside them but interacting with them in forums and during events here?
I already answered the presumptive reasoning charge to the best of my ability. However, it's true that I can't be certain that cv's were added just because they exist in the MA, but it seems like a reasonable inference because they were not used in the actual BoB. That's certainly a better inference than explaining the presence of cv's with some despotic wish on the part of the AvA staff to punish the axis for past arrogance. :noid
I can't common on current warbirds setups as I haven't played the sim in many years, but I can compare what we have in AH today to what warbirds had in the past around the time of version 2.x. Back then we had the "historical arena." There were no gv's in the game, so there was no question of them being in any setup. Still, no cv's were ever included in a BoB 1940 setup (but there were ships at port you could bomb), and no one every said they ought to be. Field capture was enabled, but happened infrequently (you had to drop in paras with a ju52). Probably the lack of gv's and their sneakiness factor made that a bit more difficult. So, the basic planeset was the Hurri, Spit and B25C for the Uk (the latter being a subsitute), and 109, 110, Ju88 and Ju87 for germany (both sides had the Ju52).
I was never part of the staff that set up the historical arenas, or the scenario lites, or the big scenarios: so all of my experience is as someone who enjoyed the fruits of their labor. I'm also new to AH because I've only recently got back into flight sims, so my participation with AvA staff here on the forums is minimal. However, whether I've had personal interactions with the AvA staff has nothing to do with my ability to make sound suggestions or criticisms of what they've provided us.
Now that I've bombarded you with questions and you may be feeling like I'm picking on you for critisizing the AvA staff, let me assure you that I don't think the current setup is perfect, either. But let me also go so far as sharing that I've yet to see one that ever was ... even the ones I helped set up here in the past. I know you may not be asking for perfection ... but ... every single player that's played this arena ... long-term or short-term ... whether they give it a pass of fail ... has had something (or things) they thought needed addressing ... by the staff. And, trust me, for everything that needed addressing there was at least one other vocal player who either thought something else beared more pressing attention or disagreed with the first players's assessment altogether. Your and my general opinion on what physical arena elements seem broken may not be far apart. But your and my impression on not only who to blame but how much blame exists doesn't. I know that in the past, disabling the ability to capture by any method has reduced the playerbase as much as uncontrolled capture has. There's a balance.
I'd like to point out again that I don't put all the blame on the AvA staff, far from it. But since they have a bit more power in these matters than the rest of us, it's seems reasonable to me to hold them accountable for what they can control, nothing more or less than that.
There's only so much you can so with settings and dictation when it comes to fostering a supportive and dedicated playerbase for the AvA. It's always been the red-headed stepchild of AHII. It's a player mindset that'll create more problems than anything. I bet if you look closely enough at your experiences in Warbirds you'll see the same. Does the community put it's weight behind immersion ... historical immersion, especially? If so, it's the community, as a whole, that deserves credit and reaps the benefit. If not, it's the community, as a whole, that deserves blame and suffers the consequence. If the players don't care about it, whether through ignorance ("How come most of the fighters aren't enabled in the hanger?! Why isn't there a side for the Knights?! I'm a Knight?!) or ambivalence ("So what if the Allies weren't focused on liberating France during the Battle of Britain? The setup gave me the tools and this is what I like!") or a mixture ... it'll be the players that look for ways to play the game outside of historical perspective, no matter what the settings, that set the tone of the AvA. And for those who, ironically, seem the rare exception to the current AvA community mindset ... that of being actually into settings that provide greater historical immersion ... until they can organize, inspire and motivate the rest, they're stuck with what the rest of the community either actively does or blissfully puts up with . Look at TK's post. He helped facilitate and organize invasions to prove a point. To prove a point! But even he couldn't have done so if the players who followed along didn't want to and didn't think it was more fun than flying Spits and Hurris in their historical role of defending their island against inbound Luftwaffe bomber formations and fighter escort (which ... BTW ... ain't happening if the Axis players aren't there to do it or don't care to do it).
A couple of other differences between then and now: we had a number of historically based squads who made it their business to hold their squad night in the historical arena, but here that doesn't seem to be the case (though FSO is even better for those who get to participate). One thing that's really missing from the AvA are bomber squads. The 100th BG (the haze) who only recently moved here to AH, as I understand it, used to join up with the old 4th FG in the historical arena, and they would even become the 100th KG during BoB events/arenas. We certainly need more bomber pilots in this current AvA setup.
edit: I should say that there are still some squads regularly present in the AvA, and it sounds like there used to be more.
The atmosphere of the AvA has always been player driven, no matter how hands on the AvA staff decide to be. And it's not like any of the AvA staff are making a living being AvA staffers. They're players just like you ... many of whom have lives that don't allow baby-sitting the arena as much as the AvA community (which isn't banding together to help historical immersion all that much right now) sometimes demands. Quite honestly, if you think you can do a better job of it (and please try not to take offense .. you may well can) ... then write up your resume' of Warbirds experience and experiences, throw your hat in the ring and run with it. But I'm telling you, if you don't start with the community first (even as a dedicated non-staff player) and resort to making a habit of complaining about how it's all the staff's fault, whether you're selected to serve or not you may have to reap your own sowage in a negative way. That way being the continued sufferage of setups that don't meet your uncompromising standards because the community you failed to inspire as a peer doesn't appreciate a heavy hand and has four main arenas to choose from where they perceive there isn't as heavy a one.
Good suggestions. You have a good point here that the players need to change if the arena is going to change. Most of this thread is just people screaming past each other. I'm going to be a father :O in a little while, so I don't think now would be the right time to try to throw my hat in the ring. What I can do is draw up some thoughts about what would make a good BoB setup and post it here for your review. :salute
-
You have a good point here that the players need to change if the arena is going to change.
The AvA is like the Borg. You either escape, or you are absorbed. I hope, for each and every one of you, that it is the latter.
There were no carriers in the real Battle of Britain. We all know this. There are carriers in this setup because we're trying something just a bit different. Of course we could slug it out between Dover and Calais, to see who can get the goons through the fighter screen. That might be fun, and some day we might try that (again - the old-time regulars know that it works). For now, let's try this. We still have the historical plane set, you can still be Douglas Bader against Adolf Galland if you want, and the competitors can count bases. Give it a shot. It may not be pure, but it is the next best hope that AH offers, and it's a lot of fun if you don't take it too seriously.
- oldman
-
Stop complaining.. Axis killed 3 cv's in less than an hour!
For every problem there is a solution.
PLINK
-
Many have. It was a specific question to a specific individual based on their specific requests versus their specific experiences. NOT a generality. If you have some specific suggestions then I suppose I can present this specific question to you, as well, and you can follow up ... but follow up on the entire text and suggestions, if you will. If you have ideas, the desire to present them and the willingness to volunteer to implement them, by all means.
Points well taken. I spoke too soon and out of context. <Maybe I should run for political office.> It was the Air Warrior AvA that never had CVs and used the appropriate rolling plane sets from the periods concerned... a three month war if I recall. It was tons of fun, but I doubt that anyone in Aces High wants to fly one month early, one month middle and one month late European war.
Even so, I have a suggestion. I remember a fabulous terrain for BoB from AH1 back around 2002, when I used to play in there a lot. There were awesome fights over the cities, which looked terrific, London in particular. That was a superb map, equalled only by the AvA terrain of the Baltic in autumn. And no carriers. Does anyone remember it? Is it still available or usable?
In the meantime, enjoy the novelty of Allied CVs off the coast of France. WBs had them too on some maps, although I am not sure it was for the BoB map. But they did have all planes of the period available to both sides sometimes. It was a little startling to see Zeros and Ki43s alongside Bf109Es over London. Bizarre is as bizarre does.
-
Let me take this a couple pieces at a time...
Very thoughtful reply and thank you. I'll keep in mind that you're as supportive of the historical immersion in AHII as I have been (and may yet be again). And congrats. Fatherhood is both a blessing and a bit of a curse (at times) but you'll never regret it. :salute
-
Bizarre is as bizarre does.
True. AW had some of the best scenarios I've ever experienced. So has AHII. My hopes for AvA (then CT) was to be a static scenario setting for players who wanted to escape pizza maps and Mustangs versus Corsairs versus Lavochians versus Yaks versus Zekes versus Nikis. We tried everything (and apparently everything is still an option to try). My effort here focused on some of my own selfish desire ... something late war Pacific that players on both sides could sink their teeth into. The result was an alternate reality setting called "Second Wind." I grouped with other players who threw in their talent in creating a custom map, Japanese skins for the Me262 (Nakajima Kikka - one protoype flew) and Komet (a Japanese variant was on the drawing board). The whole idea was to draw players to the week long event who traditionally shyed away from such settings because they felt the Japanese planset was at too severe a disadvantage to make a late war match-up enjoyable (not many brave Samurai minded players in AH). All in all most considered it somewhat of a success. But it was unusual (aka "bizarre").
(http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh204/arlogu3/2ndwindloBWbanner.gif)
-
All two of them? :rofl
Better check the production run of the "T"
I think JG-5 also used the 109T in Norway.
-
I think JG-5 also used the 109T in Norway.
True... But this was in 1943. I think we're trying 1939/1940 at the moment.
:salute
-
Don't make me choke you Arlo! ;)
-
True... But this was in 1943. I think we're trying 1939/1940 at the moment.
:salute
Actually the first 109Ts were operational by 1941. I guess I'm missing the point of the debate. If it's being said that the Axis should not have a CV with 109s because they are E models. Then the Allies should not have CV's with Spits, or Hurris, because they're not Seafires or Sea Hurricanes. Not to mention we have Boston MkIIIs launching from CVs on the Allied side. I have to say I agree with the Axis guys, discontent over the CVs. The whole CV issue in this thing is abstract as hell, and arguing over service dates of the 109T makes little sense to me. That being said I return you to your debate with JG-11.
-
Keep your cans afloat. Keep em at 250-300% hardness.
Gimme a shore battery :devil
-
Keep your cans afloat. Keep em at 250-300% hardness.
Gimme a shore battery :devil
Here ya go bud! :aok
(http://www.cowboyneeds.com/Parris4300_Large.jpg)
-
About par for the course.
-
na thats the MGFF
-
About par for the course.
:lol True
Just remove the string and you have a .303 ;)
-
wow, I have almost absolutely no desire to come back to the AvA anymore after reading all this
-
Actually the first 109Ts were operational by 1941...
1941 Operational date. 1939 BoB
Somewhere in there is the point.
-
Actually BOB was 1940. Since they're flying 109Es off CV's and not T's , and we're flying land based Spits, Hurris, and friggin Bostons off CV's... I still don't see the point.
Other than our side is a bigger slap against realism than theirs... Now exactly what is your point?
-
:salute
Actually BOB was 1940. Since they're flying 109Es off CV's and not T's , and we're flying land based Spits, Hurris, and friggin Bostons off CV's... I still don't see the point.
Other than our side is a bigger slap against realism than theirs... Now exactly what is your point?
British historians date the battle from 10 July to 31 October 1940, which represented the most intense period of daylight bombing. German historians usually place the beginning of the battle in mid-August 1940 and end it in May 1941, on the withdrawal of the bomber units in preparation for the attack on the USSR.
-
This is not a historical re-enactment of the Battle of Britain. :aok
-
This is not a historical re-enactment of the Battle of Britain. :aok
So why did the AvA staff advertise is as such? Why was it called the "Battle of Britain?" You can put lipstick on a pig, but... What we have is a Main Arena with an early war plane-set, too many people in gv's, and one side gets 3 cv's that respawn when destroyed, while the other gets one cv that doesn't respawn when destroyed. When dissected that way and not dressed up as something cool and historical, no one would ever think it was a good idea. I'm sorry, I respect what you guys do for us, but this was a big mistake. The AvA staff can bring credit upon themselves by admitting it and moving on.
-
Noted