Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Anaxogoras on April 14, 2008, 01:00:10 AM
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After verbally-duking it out with a whole variety of people here, some thoughtful and some gnashing their teeth, my conclusion is that what divides us is death and its roll in the game of AH.
Some of us think that death is bad, it should be avoided at all costs (just like real pilots), and may even go so far as to believe that a lack of death-fear hurts gameplay (dive-bombing lancs, anyone?).
Some of us think that death is no big deal because you can always roll out a new plane, you'll get to the next fight more quickly, and learn more by fighting and dying in situations where you are a 90% favorite to get shot down. Virtual pilots who avoid virtual death hurt gameplay because they spend far too much time flying in between fights and running away.
Most people here are somewhere in the middle and wonder why the thread about furballers has reached 14 pages. :rolleyes:
So what do you think about death and its roll in the game? Should death count less against score? More? Should there be no score at all? And if stats still cause people to try too hard not to die, then should stats go too?
You know that I'm on the side of avoiding death. I think I've said enough about it, but if you haven't heard, it's generally because I like to emulate real combat conditions. If real pilots had to avoid death at all costs, then that's what I want to do too. I wouldn't fly AH if there were not some historical basis for the game. But hey, that's just me.
There was a time when an opinion like mine was the solid majority, but maybe it's the AW crowd here, I don't really know... I remember reading threads at argo's where people proposed sending someone who died back to a rear-airfield as a penalty, or making them wait one full minute before they could replane. No kidding. :O
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We all know where I stand =) totally try to be on the realistic side and make it back to my air field.
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Observant post Anax. The observation that a total disregard for RTB may sometimes make for very lame and gamey MA behavior, just as bad as the worst "scorewhoring", is especially cogent. I agree completely.
I think the scoring system is fine the way it is though, and irrelevant to people's MA behavior. I know I will probably never become one of the top scorers, so it does not influence me either way.
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nobody takes off with the sole purpose of being shot down it is just that many of us need a heavy risk of being shot down to make surviving worth while.
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It is possible to get many kills with few deaths in addition to it not being a yawnfest of 2 kills/hour if you know how. It's still not as fun as engaging several cons in a furball or a nice 1v1. Quite frankly I'm astonished at the amount of people who refuse to engage in a 1v1 even when they are in a plane that pretty much out performs their opponent in almost every category.
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oops
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But here's the problem. If you over emphasize 'living' then you might as well take out 99 percent of the plane set. Why would anyone take a P39D up against La7s, or a Spit I up against D9s if 'dying' is penalized. The only 'risk' we take is getting into the fight, and the fight is all that matters to many of us, because in the end, one base on the map looks like another base and winning a do-over seems silly. In my wildest imagination as a little kid, I never thought I could go into a dogfight against another person in a WW2 fighter. Lo and behold I got older and got the chance, even if it's just a cartoon plane and my imagination at work. Why would I not want to live out that childhood dream?
We're not emulating combat conditions. This isn't combat it's a game where we pretend. People do things in here they wouldn't ever have done in combat because death isn't real here. You'd have to be a fool to HO like some folks do in here, more often then not followed by colliding with the guy they are trying to HO. What's the penalty if you get shot down, bail out and get 'captured". Do you include potential mechanical failures? How about oxygen use? Cold? Icing? Gun stoppages?
Do we spread the fields so far apart that an aircraft's range matters? All of a sudden only the USAAF birds with long range DTs can reach the fight? How do you decide where the front starts? Do we divide it by Axis in one Country, Allied in another and Soviet in the third with two of the three always pounding on one? Kinda tough on the Axis since the only heavy bombers are Allied.
How do we decide what people fly? If this is WW2, what year is it? Do the LW pilots have more experience to start and the newbs all start Allied and it's 1939 with Hurri Is, Spit Is, P40Bs etc while the LW has 109Es and 110s, Zekes etc? Or is ot 1945 and the Allies have overwhelming numbers and experience vs the Axis which can't keep enough pilots trained? Is it 1944 and the Axis have just a couple carriers and very few carrier planes while the Allies have all kinds of them?
How do we limit the amounts of time people can fly? if my life allows me 3 hours a week, how do we determine how much flying I have to do to get to a fight, vs a guy who plays 20 hours a week?
Do we designate who flies bombers, who flies attack, who flies defense, who flies on the the offensive? Do we designate escort pilots vs fighter sweeps? Do we determine that some guys have to fly CAP for the carriers while others hit the islands?
It seems to me that what you want is Combat Tour where flying the 'mission' will matter and there will be a reward or penalty for your death and not completing the 'mission'. But that's also going to expect you to follow the mission parameters too I'd think and you might get bored at times, and have to commit time that others might not have.
Bottom line is this isn't real war, it's a air combat simulation 'game' where folks have all kinds of options in how they play. There is no way to create the 'fear' of death until you make it one life and you never play again.
I kinda doubt HTC is going to implement that kind of system however. It doesn't pay :)
Understand something about furballers too. Many of us have also flown scenarios, FSO's Snapshots or whatever. I was privilaged to CO the 38 Group in the DGS scenario. If you look at the list of guys who flew with me in the 474th in that scenario, you'd find nothing but furballers. Everyone of us who flew that scenario had a blast 'completing the mission" we were given and 3 of 4 frames it was bomber escort. I had 1 kill in 4 frames and died 1 time on a second sortie. I had probably 11-12 hours of time 'in the cockpit' for that 1 kill, but there was a purpose to what the scenario was about and living mattered as did sheperding the bombers. Don't think that 'furballers' don't get that. I think you'd find many of us well versed in the history of WW2 aviation and hardly 'air quake' types.
But we understand the difference between the MA and a Scenario and play the game to fit the time or the event.
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"No victory without peril."
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But here's the problem. If you over emphasize 'living' then you might as well take out 99 percent of the plane set. Why would anyone take a P39D up against La7s, or a Spit I up against D9s if 'dying' is penalized.
Conversely Sir, why take up a D9 instead of a Spit16 if RTB is not an objective? The former's only real advantage over the latter is that its speed makes it more survivable in AHII's multi-bandit enviroment.
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nevermind, I know better then to get into these "discussions". :cool:
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nobody takes off with the sole purpose of being shot down it is just that many of us need a heavy risk of being shot down to make surviving worth while.
That sums it up.. I never go out looking to get shot down.. But this isn't real life ww2, so what's the point in landing if I didn't challenge myself..
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There is no survival vs obligation in the main arena gameplay. A real pilot was obligated to go out and attempt to fulfill mission objectives as ordered, no matter how much peril it put him in. There is no such requirment in the main arenas to put the mission objective ahead of your own safety.
Instead, you can pick and choose where, when, and under what conditions you wish to fight. As such "too much" emphisis on death in the game designs leads to a bunch of people who are afraid to engage in combat. The game is designed around accuratly simulating WWII aircraft and vehicles, and having fun simulating combat with them (see below). No combat=no fun.
Pulling up our current scores, you are averaging 3.61 kills per hour. I am averaging 15.28 kills per hour. We are both having fun, so all is good. Here is the complication though...If everyone else in the arena is using my style of gameplay, you still have fun. If everyone else is flying your style of gameplay, I am no longer having so much fun.
If the game is combat, and death is losing, I can tell you I do not like to lose. So don't take my comments to mean I think nothing of a "death" in the game. But I also like to win (killing) very much, and I like to do it a frequently as possible. I would rather go down with 9 kills than be forced to rtb with 2. I consider the former a much more productive use of my game playing time, than the latter.
We make a game around WWII planes and vehicles. We do not try to simulate WWII. Simulation of WWII is one of CT's goal's. Then things like ho's start to be used much more like they were in the war. Once there is a substatial penalty on death. And you can win with out shooting down the other guy. Then the choice of to HO or not becomes a very diffferent equation.
But if you try taylor things in the main to be a recreation of WWII tatics, you start to run into major fun limiting restrictions.
Where does our banner in anyway contradict what I have said. In fact we choose those words very precisly to not give the impression we were a simulation of WWII.
Other wise instead of saying the Preimer WWII combat experiance, we would have said the Preiemer WWII simlation.
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$0.02 worth;
Personally I usually would fall into the "win the war" mentality. i.e. If I am flying in a D9 and I see a flite of buffs with a Niki/Spit escort, I will blow by the escort <hopefully> and engage the buffs. The same holds true if I see a big bar approaching a base, I would prob. up a mossie and buff hunt and ignore the LAs, Spits, etc as I don't think they will do a lot of damage to the base.
I realize that there are many "styles" of game play, and to me that is what makes online gaming 100% better than offline. The whole fun of playing with a bunch of other geeks is the different personalites.
<prolly wasn't worth $0.02,,but....> :)
CYA Up
Targut
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But here's the problem. If you over emphasize 'living' then you might as well take out 99 percent of the plane set.
But I can still emhpasize "living", I just have to accept that some rides may give me a lower probability to succeed in this. In my case it's not that I always say: "I want to survive" and then I pick a plane accordingly. While that does happen (especially when I'm committed to a certain battle), I also often pick a ride first and then set it a a goal not only to engage the enemy, but also to bring it home.
Back when I was flying Hurri I or 109F as a main ride, my goal was "getting home" as much as when my primary ride was the Tempest. I just didn't succeed as much ;)
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I try not to die and find it more fun to fight someone who does his very best to stay alive and shoot me down.
my 0.02 £
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I always try to land my sorties.
I'm not very successful :lol
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My virtual politics are much in line with Murdr "win / lose" theory. I die = I lost. I don't like it but it happens and to frequently for my liking :frown: That being said I also align with what mechanics "no guts no glory" attitude.... otherwise whats the point of going up in a "fighter mode" sortie. Whats the point of going porking in attack mode if not prepared to fight your way out and so on.
So what do you think about death and its roll in the game? Should death count less against score? More? Should there be no score at all? And if stats still cause people to try too hard not to die, then should stats go too?
Death already counts for very little in game except bomber mode score. It can work to the advantage of the skilled fighter mode player though. The score system is geared to survival on the whole without overly rewarding it.
I have a real problem equating this "score" over death thing. You see it daily in the MA and I'm sure peoples perception are totally wrong. I'll explain. You get the runner or timid fighter and most would automatically presume it's a score issue with these guys.....WRONG! It's peoples personalities and very little to do with score. There are risk takers and there's none risk takers. Those that don't care if they lose and those that do. There are players who want to learn and those that gave up. Those that look for challenges and those that have peaked. You see these traits in everyday folk in your real life.
Your average runner or timid fighter is just inexperienced....simple as that. No major score hoar theory going on in his head. Just wants the kill (win) without losing. Now you could argue he'll not learn anything from running but you ain't going to get past " I don't want to lose". Id love HTC to invite a "shrink" college to study the virtual pilots mentality. To have us evaluated. Yer... we're GEEKS but what kind :)
If your good at something which usually comes with experience, you find yourself pushing for harder things to do. If your inexperienced you'll being more concerned with survival than challenges.
In short "score" has little to do with MA antics.
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There was a time when an opinion like mine was the solid majority, but maybe it's the AW crowd here, I don't really know...
lol thanks for the laugh.
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There was a time when an opinion like mine was the solid majority, but maybe it's the AW crowd here, I don't really know... I remember reading threads at argo's where people proposed sending someone who died back to a rear-airfield as a penalty, or making them wait one full minute before they could replane. No kidding. :O
The majority of players were all about not dieing? Must have been a boring game back in the day. :D
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There was a time when an opinion like mine was the solid majority
In all the years I have been in AH, I have never seen this to be the case.
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The majority of players were all about not dieing? Must have been a boring game back in the day. :D
I'm not talking about AH either. ;) Edit: noseart, this applies to your comment.
Pulling up our current scores, you are averaging 3.61 kills per hour. I am averaging 15.28 kills per hour.
Sometimes it takes me 15-20 minutes to reach high altitude bombers and set up for a guns pass. :aok
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Interesting responses. Many have simply skipped the death topic and moved on talk about what they want to talk about. One thing that makes me go :huh is the great confidence behind generalizations as to why pilots fly in a way we don't like, especially for which there is no data or empirical evidence to speak of.
For example, when the P-51 pilot runs away, we can say Your average runner or timid fighter is just inexperienced....simple as that.
How do we know? I'm really trying to wrap my head around this one. We don't have any data or evidence to speak of.
Let's go back to talking about death.
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Some of us think that death is bad, it should be avoided at all costs (just like real pilots)
This statement is absolutely wrong.
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The best description of my view of dieing in the MA comes from the movie the 13th Warrior. One of the vikings told his buddies "This is a good day to die." I do not want to be sent down in flames, but I will not fear it. With that said, I will always approach a fight with the intention of killing the enemy however I can and then flying/driving home. The emphasis is placed on killing the enemy first, and if I am nailed in the process, so be it.
Oink
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Quote from: Anaxogoras on Today at 01:00:10 AM
Some of us think that death is bad, it should be avoided at all costs (just like real pilots)
When living is the primary goal, why fly at all and risk dieing? Would it not be better to sit in the tower, and achieve perfection of never dieing?
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But I can still emhpasize "living", I just have to accept that some rides may give me a lower probability to succeed in this. In my case it's not that I always say: "I want to survive" and then I pick a plane accordingly. While that does happen (especially when I'm committed to a certain battle), I also often pick a ride first and then set it a a goal not only to engage the enemy, but also to bring it home.
Back when I was flying Hurri I or 109F as a main ride, my goal was "getting home" as much as when my primary ride was the Tempest. I just didn't succeed as much ;)
Lusche, I've been around you and you do a lot of cherry picking, or generally no fighting, just staying high above everything else and picking helpless targets.
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It goes along w/ tryin not to get into a HO.
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When living is the primary goal, why fly at all and risk dieing? Would it not be better to sit in the tower, and achieve perfection of never dieing?
isn't that what the 51 and 190 are for? :D
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This statement is absolutely wrong.
Explain? Not giving a reason for your opinion is unhelpful. Moreover, if at least one person thinks it, any statement that says "some of us think..." is true by definition. Maybe you're objecting to the claim that real pilots try to avoid death?
When living is the primary goal, why fly at all and risk dieing? Would it not be better to sit in the tower, and achieve perfection of never dieing?
HT, you know the answer to your own question. Everything is more meaningful with risk. We try to live, but that is not to say that we ought not to take some chances, especially when there are enemies to be shot down! :D
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When living is the primary goal, why fly at all and risk dieing? Would it not be better to sit in the tower, and achieve perfection of never dieing?
But is a score of 0 really perfection? :noid
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Lusche, I've been around you and you do a lot of cherry picking, or generally no fighting, just staying high above everything else and picking helpless targets.
:rofl
How often have you been "around me"?
BTW I pretty good remember you hypocrisy a few weeks ago. We were part of the same furball, but when you spotted me you started to rant on and on on local vox. When I shot an enemy off someones tail, you cried out "weak pick" - 1 minute later I heard you "Wait, il clear your six" and saw you doing just the same. Repeatedly.
You where wining on BBS about those guys sinking CV's, yet I saw you doing the same. You complain about weak pickers in their late war rides, yet a few hours ago you whined about losing your 262 when attacking helpless bombers...
But I don't take offense in that. If there is one player whose judgement & opinion I can't take seriously in any way, it's you and your online "personality" :)
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But is a score of 0 really perfection? :noid
The way of the Zen Warrior! ;)
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Pickers calling pickers out! :rofl As I said in an earlier post------>everybody picks! Everybody.
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When it comes to death, HTC gives a mixed signal. I try to use score (which is different than rank) to gage if I am playing the game the way HT intended.
Just to focus on the furball for a second, by staying in the furball and getting as many kills you can until you die, gives you the best kills per hour score but hurts your kills per death. If you manage your fuel/ammo and look to exit the fight when running low and land your kills, it gives you the best kills per death score but then hurts you kills per hour. The two scores are in opposition to each other. Now, if we look at bombers as a comparison, there is only damage per death and no damage per hour. This tells me HTC expects us to land our bomber flights. Therefore, what HTC is saying is to fly the furball the way you want. Is anyone else's opinion important to you?
I personally try to land all my flights. It takes more work getting out of a fight then it took to get into the fight in the first place. You just have to endure being called a "chicken" when you do.
MachNix
Edit: Somehow what I posted in another thread got added here too. That added part has been removed.
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But is a score of 0 really perfection? :noid
Well...since it's HT's scoring system, perfection is what he says it is. :D
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Beware the mob :rofl we dont care about perks, score, rank or any other aspect of scoring me especially my fighter rank blows and i die almost every sortie.If i was to land one woopity do :rock ,We will do what it takes if that meens HO , ram , pick , gang, doesnt matter to us. We've been called every derogatory name in the book. We get a good laugh out of it. :rofl We fly for the pure fun of flying a cartoon plane and seeing what we can shoot down if its red we will shoot at it. :rock
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The analogy is wrong, Anaxagoras.
The way you describe it makes people think that there are actually people who don't care about deaths and just fly around for fun. As if there exists an antagonism between the "I do all I do to survive" kind and the "I only care about fun" kind.
However, in reality, there's no such thing as an "I only care about fun" kind of people in the MA.
The self-described "I only care about fun" folk are usually shrouded in a cloudy layer of self-devised deception, in the fact that they compensate for the dangers of "fun" flying by usually flying at places on the map that minimizes the dangers of being shot down. They usually like to describe it as "SA".
For instance, if they really care about fun, in theory you should see as much as them as anywhere on the map. However, in reality, you don't see them upping in superbly "target rich" environments. You don't see them getting up from vulched fields, you don't see them getting up under disadvantageous circumstances.
Take for example, some of the more prominent squads in the MA. They usually lead attacks into undefended parts of the maps. The first to launch offensives while the local airsuperiority shifts into their own favor. However, you don't see that same squad upping from badly outnumbered fields. Why? Because upping under those circumstances, for the objective of defending bases, means that they will be shot down a lot while attempting to defend. It's NO FUN.
I've met almost every person in this thread whom professes to "fly for fun", either as a friend or a foe. Unfortunately for them, the only circumstances I've actually met most of them are while they are solely on an advantageous offensive. And as long as they are totally free to choose wherever they want to fly on the map, they can always pick the best spots to fight as fun as they like, and still remain victorious in most of the cases.
In short, its one of those vet shams.
They ridicule the average pilot for wanting to survive, always running away, and whatever these underskilled pilots need to do to survive as being "cowardly" and "no fun"... but at the same time, they are always the swarmers, hordesmen, mass GV attackers, flying mid-war planes at 20k and jumping down on fools who've been lured to open spaces, BnZing, cherrypicking, etc. etc. ad nauseaum.
Ofcourse its fun to fly in winning fights.
However, just for the sake of argument, give me the right to limit and designate where some of these people can fly on the map, and I guarantee, every single one of those "I fly for fun" people will definately be flying in a very different style - for survival.
In short, the people who claim they don't care about deaths, are those who usually fly under circumstances where they'd not have to worry about relatively high risks in the first place.
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I think there's a fine line between putting too much emphasis on living, and not enough emphasis.
I admire the person who ups against nearly hopeless odds for a base defense. Heck, sometimes it even works.
I hate the person who is too unskilled, impatient, or what adjective you prefer, who suicide bombs a radar rather than set up a proper attack run.
If you place no value on your virtual life, it is very easy to do many things in this game.
For me, I up sometimes into odds I know I probably won't win against. I up planes that aren't 'uber' and may not give me the best chance of survival. But if I'm gonna go out there in the virtual sky, I'm gonna fight my bum off to live to RTB.
I get far more satisfaction milking my severely wounded A-20 for 20 minutes to RTB with 1 or 2 kills than going down in a ball of flame carrying 9. Neither way is 'the' way to play, but that's what I enjoy so it's what I do.
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There was a time when an opinion like mine was the solid majority, but maybe it's the AW crowd here, I don't really know... I remember reading threads at argo's where people proposed sending someone who died back to a rear-airfield as a penalty, or making them wait one full minute before they could replane. No kidding. :O
Hmm, in AH? I was here prior to the demise of AW and I don't ever remember such a time. Were there always players that put such a premium on living that they could be described as "timid", you betcher great wide butt!!! However, they have never been the majority. In point of fact, they have always been the minority (here and in AW). While there are folks that have made the suggestions you posted, no one with any common sense could take them seriously...in large part, because they make bad business sense. The MA isn't a scenario.
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What I'm about to type is not meant as an insult toward any type of player. But I'm sure some will take it that way. So, in advance, my apologies if it offends.
The idea of staying alive in a video game, means very little. Yes its great to get kills, and win the fight, but if this means spending most of the time avoiding fights, even one on one fights if the player feels he doesnt have a great advantage, to many is'nt fun. As someone who flies low and slow, and gets killed alot, my excuse for playing that way, is because I have little patience, and even less interest in flying around in this gamesight-seeing. Frankly, there aint much to see.
I would much rather throw myself into bad situations, and have some exciting moments, even if it leads to my demise, than to spend most of the flight climbing or extending. Thats my reason for playing how I play.
Now lets look at the reasons someone else would play only the survival above all else method.
SCORE- For some people to spend as much time playing a game, like most of us do, they want a reward for their efforts. Score can be that reward. Many percieve score/rank as the identifier of the best pilots. I would disagree there, but it means something to some.
REALISM- I save this for events where I have one life. I dont think it belongs in the MA where realism isnt a factor to begin with. P51s fighting P51s, anything goes. The only thing real in the MA is the design we were given to play with.
SKILL LEVEL- I hate to use the word skill when talking about a video game, but I'll use it for lack of a word that means to do well at something that isnt very important. (Easy now..)
There are alot of players in here who are good at fighting, from the begiining of the fight at altitude, all the way through if it gets slow, and requires better instinct at where to point your plane, when to chop throttle, and all the stuff required when it gets low and slow.
However, the majority of players are average, some below average. Many of these players realize they have limitations on what they can make a plane do in here. Some are quite open about it and say they use the best planes, or run when it starts to get slow because they know this. Many others...(steady) simply use the idea of "realism" as a mask to conceal the fact they dont do well when the advantage is'nt in their favor, or even if the advantage is a draw. These are often the ones who will also belittle the way many of us who don't care about surviving, fly.
So just to clear it up, if someone truly is disappointed in a player who gets in fights, dies,and re-ups, there are just as many who are disappointed in those that run and wait to pick someone they didnt want to fight when the odds were more even.
The world is full of disappointments, I'm just one of them.
There..that about covers it.
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Kweassa,you have an incredibly dark, cynical, and pessimistic viewpoint.
:salute
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Hmm, in AH? I was here prior to the demise of AW and I don't ever remember such a time. Were there always players that put such a premium on living that they could be described as "timid", you betcher great wide butt!!! However, they have never been the majority. In point of fact, they have always been the minority (here and in AW). While there are folks that have made the suggestions you posted, no one with any common sense could take them seriously...in large part, because they make bad business sense. The MA isn't a scenario.
No, I was hinting at the old days of WB before AH existed.
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Anaxogoras and I wing up a lot to provide CAP on enemy air field. When one of our air field is under heavy attack, we take a wing up usually 4 190s and attack the air field the enemy is coming from. We usually face pretty heavy odd, but keep them surrounded within their air field and give our air field a break. Now this is what Anaxogoras means by survival. We usually face 1 to 3 odds in these sortie. Usually we make it back home with around 15-20 between the 4 of us. It's not much but it take a lot of SA and team work to force that air field to play defensive for a bit giving our guy on our air field time to come up and get some E.
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Filth,
You need to draw a distinction between the 'I don't care if I live' furball mentality (what Murdr seems to have), and the bomb and bail, suicide porker guy.
I, personally, have no problem with the furball to the death mentality. I don't agree with it, I don't do it, but I don't mind folks that do.
I hate, and I think what divides is, the suicide mentality.
It is so very easy to set up a proper attack run to kill anything in this game. But some folks prefer to take the path of least resistance because, for whatever reason, they place no value on their virtual life. How many folks suicided into A43 last night? It was over, and over, and over.
Why do I care? Because I would strongly prefer to have someone set up a proper attack that I can defend against instead of the suicide porker (eg. the lone, heavy P-51 coming in at 12k and then diving straight into the radar/FH/ords/etc.) that I follow down and get the proxy. I can't precisely tell you what about that bothers me, but man alive, it offends my sensibilities so much in this game.
IF HTC WOULD IMPLEMENT SOME SORT OF TIME DELAY FOR ATTACK/BOMB DAMAGE TO BECOME 'PERMANENT' THIS TYPE OF DWEEBY BEHAVIOR WOULD BE CUT DOWN DRAMATICALLY.
How about the typhoon over A43 last night? He does 3 low, full speed passes on the runway, collecting vulches until somebody finallly corners him enough to kill him. Where was the skill in that? Where was the 'fun'? Anyone can come in at Mach 1 and vulch the runway and collect their 9 kills if they don't care about living through the attack.
THE SUICIDE MENTALITY IS WEAK, AND DOES NOT ENHANCE GAMEPLAY.
My opinions.
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Ya Im not referring to those types. Pure suicidal play is lame. There is a difference from putting yourself in a bad spot and hoping for a good outcome, and doing something knowing what the outcome will be. P47s augering into CVs come to mind.
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Anaxogoras and I wing up a lot to provide CAP on enemy air field. When one of our air field is under heavy attack, we take a wing up usually 4 190s and attack the air field the enemy is coming from. We usually face pretty heavy odd, but keep them surrounded within their air field and give our air field a break. Now this is what Anaxogoras means by survival. We usually face 1 to 3 odds in these sortie. Usually we make it back home with around 15-20 between the 4 of us. It's not much but it take a lot of SA and team work to force that air field to play defensive for a bit giving our guy on our air field time to come up and get some E.
i have never heard vulching put into those terms before, amazing....simply amazing.
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The 80th tends to up at capped fields pretty regularly. We do it for the fun factor. To succeed where it looks as if failure is imminent is the goal in that regard. Even if you fail to defend successfully, it is alot of fun and makes for some entertaining films.
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Balance between the desire to kill (and there is nothing better than seeing the target fall apart) and not getting shot down is the key. I want to pretend to be a WWII fighter pilot for awhile and try to do whatever a skilled pilot really would do in my situations. There is no way to do this without risks.
For instance, I could refuse to pounce on inbound B-24s in my D9. There is absolutely no riskless way to attack these things, the world's worst gunner can still put a golden BB in the cockpit. (And I ASSUME that I'm going to be a glider after the attack, Dora's radiator.) But intercepting B-planes is what the 190 series was built to do. Same thing with BnZ tactics. Unless you OPHA all the time, there is no riskless way to E-fight, any plane can pull up into and fire some potshots when you go vertical, once again, the golden BB is always out there.
The key for me is tempering my desire to put the pipper on something and shoot the crap out of it with a little wisdom so I don't end up with frustration overbalancing the fun. Going along with this is my philsophy regarding differential plane encounters...I see no need to punish oneself for one's plane choice by flying the other guy's fight. If you are in a P-51 or Dora and find a Spit with an E overhead on you, and you get into a stallfight with him and let him shoot you down instead of bugging, you are essentially punishing yourself for flying a less "dweeb" plane, rewarding him for flying something abit easier, and not encouraging the guy to ever try a faster but less-forgiving plane which can run down bandits but also gives up maneuveribility.
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The 80th tends to up at capped fields pretty regularly. We do it for the fun factor. To succeed where it looks as if failure is imminent is the goal in that regard. Even if you fail to defend successfully, it is alot of fun and makes for some entertaining films.
Shuff...
Due to the boredom of flying to live, the longer one has played...the more likely he will opt for the more exciting "failure IS an option (if its fun)" approach. Unfortunately, (no matter the virtual age) will never out grow "fly to live" approach. :frown:
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i have never heard vulching put into those terms before, amazing....simply amazing.
Maybe you don't know anything about ACM who knows. =) tell me how to vulch on an air field w/ 10-15 con almost co-alt w/ ya w/ full AAAs up. At least think before you talk.
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Make Death = $$$.
Let's say.... $100 to replane after a death, automatically charged to your credit card.
Let's see how much fun the game is then when everyone "flies to live". :rofl
I'll wager the folks that are so proud of how they fly "realistically" and "fly to live" will soon be so bored they'll quit and go somewhere else.
This will become MSFS then.
And, once all the Mr. Realistics move on, we can change the pricing back to the way it is and have fun! Of course, HT will periodically have to re-teach the lesson but that's to be expected.
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these threads are simply nauseating. Just get in game and play.
FYI - Using mostly P39Ds and Qs I have 121 kills and 29 deaths.
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many of us have nothing better to do at our places of work than to talk about the game while day-dreaming of what we will be flying that night.
threads such as this result.
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As if there exists an antagonism between the "I do all I do to survive" kind and the "I only care about fun" kind.
If everyone else in the arena is using my style of gameplay, you still have fun. If everyone else is flying your style of gameplay, I am no longer having so much fun.
You deny this is the case?
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I don't want to die. This is a game and, beyond having fun, I'm competative enough to want to "win" (of course that takes many forms in this game).
Not wanting to die though, doesn't mean I avoid fights at all costs. I welcome a fight and every one I get into I expect to win. If I don't win I'm disappointed in myself because I made a mistake, whether that's augering or being pulled into an overwhelmingly outnumbered situation (which is probably my biggest downfall relative to my desire not to die) or some other mistake.
I also play for score (to an extent). I don't allow playing for score to compromise my game-play though. At one point on these BBs when I first started playing for score, I think it was Lynx suggested I spend more time in GV's as that was the strongest part of my game (at the time). My fighter skills were only average. I replied, thanks for the advice but I'm not going to compromise my game just for score. So I set about to improve my fighter skills (the weakest part of my game... and it still is). I'm still not an elite fighter pilot but I hold my own and I don't fly attack to "protect" my fighter score. I go out and fly and fight and take what comes of it and, as I posted in another thread, as long as I can take care of myself in a fight then my score/rank will take care of itself.
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well im jumping in a little late but im jumping in any way!!!!
all this talk of the "Suicide" mentality just chafs my britches,lol (not really)
now i named my squad "SUICIDE DWEEBZ" because truly i dont care if i die, i die more often then not, its a friggen game we dont realy die!!!!
but every time i up my fighter im damm well trying to RTB, but because of the fights i pick, i most often die!! hence SUICIDE DWEEB, i know most likely ill die but i still engage, because its about the fight! plain and simple.
years ago i tried the realistic survival thing very friggen boring, i will never do that again i dont see how anyone can play like that, but hey play how you like it is your 15 bucks.
i think one of the mistakes alot of people are doing is dogpilling people in certain categories , we dont know why someone does this or that.
personally i dont think there is much wrong with Aces High, and once CT comes out it'll pretty much be perfect!!
if these offline missions are a peek into what its gonna be like, (and i think they are) it should totally satisfy all that enjoy Aces High but find something not quit right!!
anyway <S> to you all who enjoy the same thing i do!!! Aces High 2
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Explain? Not giving a reason for your opinion is unhelpful. Moreover, if at least one person thinks it, any statement that says "some of us think..." is true by definition. Maybe you're objecting to the claim that real pilots try to avoid death?
HT, you know the answer to your own question. Everything is more meaningful with risk. We try to live, but that is not to say that we ought not to take some chances, especially when there are enemies to be shot down! :D
Some of us think that death is bad, it should be avoided at all costs (just like real pilots)
I thought words like ALL Cost, would mean take no risk. Or did you mean to say something different with ALL COST?
HiTech
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Maybe you don't know anything about ACM who knows. =) tell me how to vulch on an air field w/ 10-15 con almost co-alt w/ ya w/ full AAAs up. At least think before you talk.
your right i don't know any ACM :rofl :rofl :rofl
and since when is running away ACM??
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In short, the people who claim they don't care about deaths, are those who usually fly under circumstances where they'd not have to worry about relatively high risks in the first place.
You clearly have never flown anywhere near me or the guys that I fly with.
Your statement is absolutely false in that respect :)
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Anaxogoras and I wing up a lot to provide CAP on enemy air field. When one of our air field is under heavy attack, we take a wing up usually 4 190s and attack the air field the enemy is coming from. We usually face pretty heavy odd, but keep them surrounded within their air field and give our air field a break. Now this is what Anaxogoras means by survival. We usually face 1 to 3 odds in these sortie. Usually we make it back home with around 15-20 between the 4 of us. It's not much but it take a lot of SA and team work to force that air field to play defensive for a bit giving our guy on our air field time to come up and get some E.
So you were the 5 190s that took that long to BnZ my single 38G to death last night while I was on the deck just up? :)
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I liked hitech posts more pre-firefox auto spell checker. figuring out what he said was half the fun :D
<S> HT! Thanks for all the cool stuff last patch. Don't spend all my money in one place each month!
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So you were the 5 190s that took that long to BnZ my single 38G to death last night while I was on the deck just up? :)
We kept you guys from reinforcing the attack our air field didn't we =).
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We kept you guys from reinforcing the attack our air field didn't we =).
Well if ganging one light 38G is stopping the attack on your airfield, that i wasn't participating in, you sure stopped me :)
But I guess I helped the "war" effort by getting you guys to waste a bunch of time booming and zooming and missing with all your cannons and MGs. Had to have been 10 different passes where guys fired and missed. Finally one got a killing shot in and I don't know that I ever got 500 feet up.
5-1 odds for the 190s isn't much of a threat though in particular when you have the alt and the E. Not much SA involved on your part. Plenty on mine :)
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You do know there was 3 other biship w/ ya right =) wasn't just you buddy.
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You do know there was 3 other biship w/ ya right =) wasn't just you buddy.
Well there were more then just the 5 190s above too :)
Just poking ya a bit about this comment from your earlier post :)
"We usually face 1 to 3 odds in these sortie. Usually we make it back home with around 15-20 between the 4 of us. It's not much but it take a lot of SA and team work to force that air field to play defensive for a bit giving our guy on our air field time to come up and get some E."
Guess this wasn't one of those times :D
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Well I do kill myself sometimes for fun (and sometimes because i often open my parachute at 2000ft or higher, accidently of course :D and then got to the radio and type in this 'Hello can anyone kill me please or something like that :rofl) and i very often do dive bombing with lancs and B 17s or 24s :salute :D.(Well with big bombers :rofl)
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Well there were more then just the 5 190s above too :)
Just poking ya a bit about this comment from your earlier post :)
"We usually face 1 to 3 odds in these sortie. Usually we make it back home with around 15-20 between the 4 of us. It's not much but it take a lot of SA and team work to force that air field to play defensive for a bit giving our guy on our air field time to come up and get some E."
Guess this wasn't one of those times :D
heh you're right, we hang out there for about 15 min. We had more friendly finally able to made it out of our air field and head to yours. It was fun though, we got jump by a group of La7 and 51s on egress, and took the fight to the TnB on the deck.
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When living is the primary goal, why fly at all and risk dieing? Would it not be better to sit in the tower, and achieve perfection of never dieing?
lol Reminds me of
To be, or not to be: that is the question:
Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer
The slings and arrows of outrageous fortune,
Which the scoring system is neutral to. Where as the scoring system and general game play endorses.
Or to take arms against a sea of troubles,
And by opposing end them?
What it doesn't do where virtual death is concerned is penalize the suicide bomber pilot. I know you can't code out stupidity but I'm sure the deliberate actions of whats becoming the norm could be looked at.
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I thought words like ALL Cost, would mean take no risk. Or did you mean to say something different with ALL COST?
HiTech
You're right, I exaggerated! :o
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put a few pings on a set of bombers that completely missed there drop and gave me a surprise 3 kills when the pilot bailed them right over the field. <S> MightyT, those were some mighty easy kills :D
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Gentlemen, (and I use the term loosely) the problem is not the fear of death. The problem is the same mentality that looks for all the cheat codes when a new Xbox2/ps3/wii game is purchased. Cant be bothered to learn all the little nuances of the game.
It's the same path of least resistance thing.
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true dat
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The analogy is wrong, Anaxagoras.
The way you describe it makes people think that there are actually people who don't care about deaths and just fly around for fun. As if there exists an antagonism between the "I do all I do to survive" kind and the "I only care about fun" kind.
However, in reality, there's no such thing as an "I only care about fun" kind of people in the MA.
The self-described "I only care about fun" folk are usually shrouded in a cloudy layer of self-devised deception, in the fact that they compensate for the dangers of "fun" flying by usually flying at places on the map that minimizes the dangers of being shot down. They usually like to describe it as "SA".
For instance, if they really care about fun, in theory you should see as much as them as anywhere on the map. However, in reality, you don't see them upping in superbly "target rich" environments. You don't see them getting up from vulched fields, you don't see them getting up under disadvantageous circumstances.
Take for example, some of the more prominent squads in the MA. They usually lead attacks into undefended parts of the maps. The first to launch offensives while the local airsuperiority shifts into their own favor. However, you don't see that same squad upping from badly outnumbered fields. Why? Because upping under those circumstances, for the objective of defending bases, means that they will be shot down a lot while attempting to defend. It's NO FUN.
I've met almost every person in this thread whom professes to "fly for fun", either as a friend or a foe. Unfortunately for them, the only circumstances I've actually met most of them are while they are solely on an advantageous offensive. And as long as they are totally free to choose wherever they want to fly on the map, they can always pick the best spots to fight as fun as they like, and still remain victorious in most of the cases.
In short, its one of those vet shams.
They ridicule the average pilot for wanting to survive, always running away, and whatever these underskilled pilots need to do to survive as being "cowardly" and "no fun"... but at the same time, they are always the swarmers, hordesmen, mass GV attackers, flying mid-war planes at 20k and jumping down on fools who've been lured to open spaces, BnZing, cherrypicking, etc. etc. ad nauseaum.
Ofcourse its fun to fly in winning fights.
However, just for the sake of argument, give me the right to limit and designate where some of these people can fly on the map, and I guarantee, every single one of those "I fly for fun" people will definately be flying in a very different style - for survival.
In short, the people who claim they don't care about deaths, are those who usually fly under circumstances where they'd not have to worry about relatively high risks in the first place.
The 80th tends to up at capped fields pretty regularly. We do it for the fun factor. To succeed where it looks as if failure is imminent is the goal in that regard. Even if you fail to defend successfully, it is alot of fun and makes for some entertaining films.
You clearly have never flown anywhere near me or the guys that I fly with.
Your statement is absolutely false in that respect :)
donkey
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wow will we ever get over this subject???? :rolleyes:
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Fighting to the 'death' in a cage match has got to be vastly more exciting than sitting in the stands with a rifle, waiting for one of the contestants to turn his back to you.
To me this game is about simulating the most exciting part of aerial combat,the dogfight!
Pitting your skills against the skills of another or even several others to see who is the better pilot.
I have not flown in months but some of the best fights I ever had in here, I have lost, but the excitement was priceless!
Death-score-bases- whatever...I'll take a cooler full of cold beverages and some good old fashioned adrenalin! :aok
Just a thought--If God wanted you in a fast plane.. why did he point all the guns to the front? :D
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Just a thought--If God wanted you in a fast plane.. why did he point all the guns to the front? :D
:rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl
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i dont care if i die, unless i get picked or ganged
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Some of you have very restricted ideas of how real pilots flew and fought. Yes, some were like Hartman and only engaged with a clear plan to withdraw. But I have also read accounts of eight Hurricane Mk Is climbing into a formation of 30 Bf109E-4s. Sometimes the pilots just had to fight, even though it wasn't favorable.
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That's preposterous!
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ummm ok.im just posting cause i have nothing better to do...ok bye
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Some of you have very restricted ideas of how real pilots flew and fought. Yes, some were like Hartman and only engaged with a clear plan to withdraw. But I have also read accounts of eight Hurricane Mk Is climbing into a formation of 30 Bf109E-4s. Sometimes the pilots just had to fight, even though it wasn't favorable.
All you have to do is think about those inexperienced LW pilots in the Fall of 44 that had to try and intercept 1000 bombers with 800 escorts. Absolutely nothing in their favor. They never shot down more then they lost and it was only a scratch on the numbers the Allies were putting up at the time, and there was really no hope it would turn the US bombers away.
They still went up.
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Yeah, those fools didn't fly to live, did they? Shame on them. I hope they didn't pay the LW more than $14.95/mo.
Still, you gotta wonder why they didn't fly like real pilots.
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After verbally-duking it out with a whole variety of people here, some thoughtful and some gnashing their teeth, my conclusion is that what divides us is death and its roll in the game of AH.
Some of us think that death is bad, it should be avoided at all costs (just like real pilots), and may even go so far as to believe that a lack of death-fear hurts gameplay (dive-bombing lancs, anyone?).
Some of us think that death is no big deal because you can always roll out a new plane, you'll get to the next fight more quickly, and learn more by fighting and dying in situations where you are a 90% favorite to get shot down. Virtual pilots who avoid virtual death hurt gameplay because they spend far too much time flying in between fights and running away.
Most people here are somewhere in the middle and wonder why the thread about furballers has reached 14 pages. :rolleyes:
So what do you think about death and its roll in the game? Should death count less against score? More? Should there be no score at all? And if stats still cause people to try too hard not to die, then should stats go too?
You know that I'm on the side of avoiding death. I think I've said enough about it, but if you haven't heard, it's generally because I like to emulate real combat conditions. If real pilots had to avoid death at all costs, then that's what I want to do too. I wouldn't fly AH if there were not some historical basis for the game. But hey, that's just me.
There was a time when an opinion like mine was the solid majority, but maybe it's the AW crowd here, I don't really know... I remember reading threads at argo's where people proposed sending someone who died back to a rear-airfield as a penalty, or making them wait one full minute before they could replane. No kidding. :O
Those are people concerned with their Score. :P
Those are the people that everyone complains about.