Author Topic: Death - is this what divides?  (Read 2257 times)

Offline Anaxogoras

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Death - is this what divides?
« on: April 14, 2008, 01:00:10 AM »
After verbally-duking it out with a whole variety of people here, some thoughtful and some gnashing their teeth, my conclusion is that what divides us is death and its roll in the game of AH.

Some of us think that death is bad, it should be avoided at all costs (just like real pilots), and may even go so far as to believe that a lack of death-fear hurts gameplay (dive-bombing lancs, anyone?).

Some of us think that death is no big deal because you can always roll out a new plane, you'll get to the next fight more quickly, and learn more by fighting and dying in situations where you are a 90% favorite to get shot down.  Virtual pilots who avoid virtual death hurt gameplay because they spend far too much time flying in between fights and running away.

Most people here are somewhere in the middle and wonder why the thread about furballers has reached 14 pages. :rolleyes:

So what do you think about death and its roll in the game?  Should death count less against score?  More?  Should there be no score at all?  And if stats still cause people to try too hard not to die, then should stats go too?

You know that I'm on the side of avoiding death.  I think I've said enough about it, but if you haven't heard, it's generally because I like to emulate real combat conditions.  If real pilots had to avoid death at all costs, then that's what I want to do too.  I wouldn't fly AH if there were not some historical basis for the game.  But hey, that's just me.

There was a time when an opinion like mine was the solid majority, but maybe it's the AW crowd here, I don't really know...  I remember reading threads at argo's where people proposed sending someone who died back to a rear-airfield as a penalty, or making them wait one full minute before they could replane.  No kidding. :O
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Offline Yenny

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Re: Death - is this what divides?
« Reply #1 on: April 14, 2008, 01:50:51 AM »
We all know where I stand =) totally try to be on the realistic side and make it back to my air field.
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Offline BnZ

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Re: Death - is this what divides?
« Reply #2 on: April 14, 2008, 01:55:55 AM »
Observant post Anax. The observation that a total disregard for RTB may sometimes make for very lame and gamey MA behavior, just as bad as the worst "scorewhoring", is especially cogent. I agree completely.

I think the scoring system is fine the way it is though, and irrelevant to people's MA behavior. I know I will probably never become one of the top scorers, so it does not influence me either way.

Offline mechanic

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Re: Death - is this what divides?
« Reply #3 on: April 14, 2008, 01:56:31 AM »
nobody takes off with the sole purpose of being shot down it is just that many of us need a heavy risk of being shot down to make surviving worth while.
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Offline thrila

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Re: Death - is this what divides?
« Reply #4 on: April 14, 2008, 02:02:05 AM »
It is possible to get many kills with few deaths in addition to it not being a yawnfest of 2 kills/hour if you know how.  It's still not as fun as engaging several cons in a furball or a nice 1v1.  Quite frankly I'm astonished at the amount of people who refuse to engage in a 1v1 even when they are in a plane that pretty much out performs their opponent in almost every category.
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Offline thrila

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Re: Death - is this what divides?
« Reply #5 on: April 14, 2008, 02:09:54 AM »
oops
« Last Edit: April 14, 2008, 02:19:35 AM by thrila »
"Willy's gone and made another,
Something like it's elder brother-
Wing tips rounded, spinner's bigger.
Unbraced tailplane ends it's figure.
One-O-nine F is it's name-
F is for futile, not for fame."

Offline Guppy35

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Re: Death - is this what divides?
« Reply #6 on: April 14, 2008, 02:15:43 AM »
But here's the problem.  If you over emphasize 'living' then you might as well take out 99 percent of the plane set.  Why would anyone take a P39D up against La7s, or a Spit I up against D9s if 'dying' is penalized.  The only 'risk' we take is getting into the fight, and the fight is all that matters to many of us, because in the end, one base on the map looks like another base and winning a do-over seems silly.  In my wildest imagination as a little kid, I never thought I could go into a dogfight against another person in a WW2 fighter.  Lo and behold I got older and got the chance, even if it's just a cartoon plane and my imagination at work.  Why would I not want to live out that childhood dream?

We're not emulating combat conditions.  This isn't combat it's a game where we pretend.  People do things in here they wouldn't ever have done in combat because death isn't real here.  You'd have to be a fool to HO like some folks do in here, more often then not followed by colliding with the guy they are trying to HO.  What's the penalty if you get shot down, bail out and get 'captured".  Do you include potential mechanical failures?  How about oxygen use?  Cold?  Icing?  Gun stoppages?

Do we spread the fields so far apart that an aircraft's range matters?  All of a sudden only the USAAF birds with long range DTs can reach the fight?  How do you decide where the front starts?  Do we divide it by Axis in one Country, Allied in another and Soviet in the third with two of the three always pounding on one?  Kinda tough on the Axis since the only heavy bombers are Allied.  

How do we decide what people fly?  If this is WW2, what year is it?  Do the LW pilots have more experience to start and the newbs all start Allied and it's 1939 with Hurri Is, Spit Is, P40Bs etc while the LW has 109Es and 110s, Zekes etc?  Or is ot 1945 and the Allies have overwhelming numbers and experience vs the Axis which can't keep enough pilots trained?  Is it 1944 and the Axis have just a couple carriers and very few carrier planes while the Allies have all kinds of them?

How do we limit the amounts of time people can fly?  if my life allows me 3 hours a week, how do we determine how much flying I have to do to get to a fight, vs a guy who plays 20 hours a week?

Do we designate who flies bombers, who flies attack, who flies defense, who flies on the the offensive?  Do we designate escort pilots vs fighter sweeps?  Do we determine that some guys have to fly CAP for the carriers while others hit the islands?

It seems to me that what you want is Combat Tour where flying the 'mission' will matter and there will be a reward or penalty for your death and not completing the 'mission'.  But that's also going to expect you to follow the mission parameters too I'd think and you might get bored at times, and have to commit time that others might not have.

Bottom line is this isn't real war, it's a air combat simulation 'game' where folks have all kinds of options in how they play.  There is no way to create the 'fear' of death until you make it one life and you never play again.

I kinda doubt HTC is going to implement that kind of system however.  It doesn't pay :)

Understand something about furballers too.  Many of us have also flown scenarios, FSO's Snapshots or whatever.  I was privilaged to CO the 38 Group in the DGS scenario.  If you look at the list of guys who flew with me in the 474th in that scenario, you'd find nothing but furballers.  Everyone of us who flew that scenario had a blast 'completing the mission" we were given and 3 of 4 frames it was bomber escort.  I had 1 kill in 4 frames and died 1 time on a second sortie.  I had probably 11-12 hours of time 'in the cockpit' for that 1 kill, but there was a purpose to what the scenario was about and living mattered as did sheperding the bombers.  Don't think that 'furballers' don't get that.  I think you'd find many of us well versed in the history of WW2 aviation and hardly 'air quake' types.

But we understand the difference between the MA and a Scenario and play the game to fit the time or the event.

« Last Edit: April 14, 2008, 02:21:51 AM by Guppy35 »
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Offline moot

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Re: Death - is this what divides?
« Reply #7 on: April 14, 2008, 02:22:03 AM »
"No victory without peril."
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Offline BnZ

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Re: Death - is this what divides?
« Reply #8 on: April 14, 2008, 02:24:13 AM »
But here's the problem.  If you over emphasize 'living' then you might as well take out 99 percent of the plane set.  Why would anyone take a P39D up against La7s, or a Spit I up against D9s if 'dying' is penalized.  




Conversely Sir, why take up a D9 instead of a Spit16 if RTB is not an objective? The former's only real advantage over the latter is that its speed makes it more survivable in AHII's multi-bandit enviroment.

Offline PFactorDave

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Re: Death - is this what divides?
« Reply #9 on: April 14, 2008, 02:30:45 AM »
nevermind, I know better then to get into these "discussions".   :cool:
« Last Edit: April 14, 2008, 02:32:19 AM by PFactorDave »

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Offline crockett

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Re: Death - is this what divides?
« Reply #10 on: April 14, 2008, 02:40:42 AM »
nobody takes off with the sole purpose of being shot down it is just that many of us need a heavy risk of being shot down to make surviving worth while.

That sums it up.. I never go out looking to get shot down.. But this isn't real life ww2, so what's the point in landing if I didn't challenge myself..
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Offline Murdr

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Re: Death - is this what divides?
« Reply #11 on: April 14, 2008, 03:26:49 AM »
There is no survival vs obligation in the main arena gameplay.  A real pilot was obligated to go out and attempt to fulfill mission objectives as ordered, no matter how much peril it put him in.  There is no such requirment in the main arenas to put the mission objective ahead of your own safety. 

Instead, you can pick and choose where, when, and under what conditions you wish to fight.  As such "too much" emphisis on death in the game designs leads to a bunch of people who are afraid to engage in combat.  The game is designed around accuratly simulating WWII aircraft and vehicles, and having fun simulating combat with them (see below).  No combat=no fun.

Pulling up our current scores, you are averaging 3.61 kills per hour.  I am averaging 15.28 kills per hour.  We are both having fun, so all is good.  Here is the complication though...If everyone else in the arena is using my style of gameplay, you still have fun.  If everyone else is flying your style of gameplay, I am no longer having so much fun.

If the game is combat, and death is losing, I can tell you I do not like to lose.  So don't take my comments to mean I think nothing of a "death" in the game.  But I also like to win (killing) very much, and I like to do it a frequently as possible.  I would rather go down with 9 kills than be forced to rtb with 2.  I consider the former a much more productive use of my game playing time, than the latter.

We make a game around WWII planes and vehicles. We do not try to simulate WWII. Simulation of WWII is one of   CT's goal's. Then things like ho's start to be used much more like they were in the war. Once there is a substatial penalty on death. And you can win with out shooting down the other guy. Then the choice of to HO or not becomes a very diffferent equation.

But if you try taylor things in the main to be a recreation of WWII tatics, you start to run into major fun limiting restrictions.

Where does our banner in anyway contradict what I have said. In fact we choose those words very precisly to not give the impression we were a simulation of WWII.

Other wise instead of saying the Preimer WWII combat experiance, we would have said the Preiemer WWII simlation.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2008, 03:31:10 AM by Murdr »

Offline TARGUT

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Re: Death - is this what divides?
« Reply #12 on: April 14, 2008, 06:12:43 AM »
$0.02 worth;
Personally I usually would fall into the  "win the war" mentality. i.e. If I am flying in a D9 and I see a flite of buffs with a Niki/Spit escort, I will blow by the escort <hopefully> and engage the buffs. The same holds true if I see a big bar approaching a base, I would prob. up a mossie and buff hunt and ignore the LAs, Spits, etc as I don't think they will do a lot of damage to the base.
I realize that there are many "styles" of game play, and to me that is what makes online gaming 100% better than offline. The whole fun of playing with a bunch of other geeks is the different personalites.
<prolly wasn't worth $0.02,,but....>  :)
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Offline Lusche

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Re: Death - is this what divides?
« Reply #13 on: April 14, 2008, 06:21:16 AM »
But here's the problem.  If you over emphasize 'living' then you might as well take out 99 percent of the plane set.  

But I can still emhpasize "living", I just have to accept that some rides may give me a lower probability to succeed in this. In my case it's not that I always say: "I want to survive" and then I pick a plane accordingly. While that does happen (especially when I'm committed to a certain battle), I also often pick a ride first and then set it a a goal not only to engage the enemy, but also to bring it home.
Back when I was flying Hurri I or 109F as a main ride, my goal was "getting home" as much as when my primary ride was the Tempest. I just didn't succeed as much ;)
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Offline Nilsen

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Re: Death - is this what divides?
« Reply #14 on: April 14, 2008, 06:58:48 AM »
I try not to die and find it more fun to fight someone who does his very best to stay alive and shoot me down.

my 0.02 £