Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Gunthr on April 25, 2008, 02:02:55 PM
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I enjoy the historical aspects of this game the most. But it is good to get a few kills too. I'm only an average to good flyer, in my own opinion, but some people in this game are so very, very good at it. But I always wonder how much it might translate to real life.
For example, most of us here more than a few months can recognize an enemy who is 2.0 behind firing well out of range as an incompetent. but some of us may also fire out of range to give just that impression...
...there are a lot of little tricks...
Knowledge of the ability of the other aircraft might come first...
... but some guys can see 2 or 3 moves ahead and have the patience to make sure they have an advantage.. In my mind, this, along with a determination to survive, is the most valuable skill.
One thing that detracts from the main arena for me is that there isn't much element of surprise as there was in the reality of WWII. Dogfighting seems to reign supreme, but in air war, it isn't the preferred way. Cloud cover and scud layers improve this scenario... as does other weather, but I recognise the need for a viable business model too...
hope to see you in axis vs. allies
Gunthr
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I've always wondered if people who have flown in the Air Force in real life have an advantage on Flight Sims like AHII.
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I would think it's a very different environment.
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I am of the belief that people who have real life flight experience have an easier time understanding the ACM concepts. Also, some hours behind a real stick (even if it is a Cessna 152) makes landing in AH2 feel really simple, IMHO.
I've always found it easy to land in AH2, perhaps easier then it should be.
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I've always wondered if people who have flown in the Air Force in real life have an advantage on Flight Sims like AHII.
not really. Real pilots understands envelopes and other aspects but in reality its still a game, nothing compared to real deal.
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not really.
Back in the day (Warbirds, that is) Eagl wasn't any better (or worse) than the rest of the horde. His day job was flying F-15s until his back went south on him. Last I heard he was training pilots, but at least he was still in jets.
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I've always found it easy to land in AH2, perhaps easier then it should be.
:rofl
Sorry...I was just comparing landing on a CV to landing on a CV in AH. Cracked me up.
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I've always found it easy to land in AH2, perhaps easier then it should be.
They had a nasty crosswind setup in the TA awhile back. That was a bit of a challenge.
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I flew a Cessna 150 4 times, about 6 hours total, I think it's easier to read instruments and keep an eye on your surroundings in a real plane. Might be fun to put stadiums in the game so we can circle over them and watch a game or 2.
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Axis versus allies for realism...
see u there...
Gunthr
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Really there is no such thing as "surprise" in the game. You have dar, you have sector dar line, then you have a big icon telling the con what type of plane your in. How the heck do you expect to ever have any type of surprise with all that against you. Even NOE raids are limited in that as soon as they see a 110 raid they up the uber rides and go hunt the goon. You'll never see true surprise work in this game until the above mentioned things get changed. The first thing i'd like to see go is the icon over my head with my plane type shown! Put up an icon that indicates friendly or enemy and what country then let fate of the fight work it out. As far as dar/sector lines, you kill there radar that's it, they should be blind to any inbound attack till the base flashes.
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Maybe not fully answering your question, but it is interesting that there were Furballers and Cherrypickers in real life too...
People like Werner Voss and Albert Ball had short, brilliant careers, taking on the enemy at any odds and often coming back in damaged aircraft. Ball's VC citation reads: -
For most conspicuous and consistent bravery from the 25th of April to the 6th of May, 1917, during which period Capt. Ball took part in twenty-six combats in the air and destroyed eleven hostile aeroplanes, drove down two out of control, and forced several others to land. In these combats Capt. Ball, flying alone, on one occasion fought six hostile machines, twice he fought five and once four. When leading two other British aeroplanes he attacked an enemy formation of eight. On each of these occasions he brought down at least one enemy. Several times his aeroplane was badly damaged, once so seriously that but for the most delicate handling his machine would have collapsed, as nearly all the control wires had been shot away. On returning with a damaged machine he had always to be restrained from immediately going out on another. In all, Capt. Ball has destroyed forty-three German aeroplanes and one balloon, and has always displayed most exceptional courage, determination and skill.
He figured that if he attacked a large formation of German aircraft, he should at least be able to shoot down one and then use superior aerobatics/speed to evade.
Voss took on Se5a's of 56 Squadron for ten minutes single handedly in his final fight, never once trying to escape. 56 Squadron was the top RFC squadron and the flight was full of aces: -
"Capt. J. McCudden, No. 56 Squadron ... saw a S.E.5a fighting a triplane, so with others dived at it, and for the next ten minutes the enemy triplane fought the five S.E.5s with great skill and determination. Eventually, however, it was destroyed by 2nd-Lieut. Rhys Davids of the same squadron, who had previously driven down a two-seater. . .The triplane was seen to crash in our lines by other pilots and the other occupant proved to be Lieut. Werner Voss, who was killed." Royal Flying Corps Communique
"I shall never forget my admiration for that German pilot, who single handed, fought seven of us for ten minutes . . . I saw him go into a fairly steep dive and so I continued to watch, and then saw the triplane hit the ground and disappear into a thousand fragments, for it seemed to me that it literally went into powder." James McCudden
"His flying was wonderful, his courage magnificent and in my opinion he is the bravest German airman whom it has been my privilege to see fight." James McCudden
"If I could only have brought him down alive..." Arthur Rhys Davids to James McCudden
On the flip side, you also had the very thorough pilots who would only attack on favourable odds. These racked up high scores but never had the glamour or fame of the above.
For example, Rene Fonck was the top scoring allied ace of the First World War, he is hardly well known because he was a careful, arrogant man and had none of the charisma of the more famous aces. Amongst his countrymen, Guynemer and Nungesser are much more famous despite having much lower scores.
I think that these types are easily recognisable in Aces High, so i believe that this directly relates to real life.
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...and Von Richthofen himself was a "picker" so far as I can tell from the reading I've done. :lol
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They had a nasty crosswind setup in the TA awhile back. That was a bit of a challenge.
now THAT sounds like fun. i like flying to ocean city municipal airport for just that......there's always a crosswind there......and it's only 60 ft wide by...i think 2600 ft long.......southjersey reg is 50 by 4950, and the flying w is 75 by 3500,,,,,,,,,,all fun though.
imaginei if they were that narrow or short here? wonder how many people would run off the end, or miss alltogether? especially in a damaged aircraft? :D
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...and Von Richthofen himself was a "picker" so far as I can tell from the reading I've done. :lol
yes, he was.....as was eric hartman.....richtoffen died though when he broke his own rule, and became too focused on his prey......
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There's a difference bewteen "talent" and "skill."
You'd be surprised how many of us here could do reasonably well if you put us (supervised of course) behind the stick of some prop plane... it's the niggling little details that skill, not talent, make in the difference surviving piloting a real plane.
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It approachs absurdity and profound dissrespect to apply labels/perjoratives about playing styles in our little game to men who did this for real.
Everybody shot from dead behind with no warning whenever possible, and you will find that probably 80% of kills were scored this way. On the other hand, Richtoffen and Hartman had some white-knuckle dogfights themselves and there is little doubt they were skilled manuevering pilots. Voss's exploits and similar are just what you would expect from a cornered tiger facing long odds. Mainly, some pilots were luckier than others...some scored and scored without being killed or wounded, some died, some came close enough to feel the Reaper breathing down their neck but pulled it out at the last instant.
Honestly, the primary factor before in the making of an ace before all the radar, missles, electronics, etc, was probably eyesight, spotting the enemy first being primary. Then gunnery. Ability to withstand Gs in a high-speed turn, probably distant third.
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Just read a book about Voss , seems the Brits shoveled him into a shell hole shortly after his death .
Guess it was a busy time at Plum Farm .
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It approachs absurdity and profound dissrespect to apply labels/perjoratives about playing styles in our little game to men who did this for real.
Why?
There are clear similarities in flying styles "our little game" and those that fought in real life, how is comparing the two "disrespectful"? I didn't see any disrespectful comments, just observations on how they flew and using game terminology to make the link between the two. There tends to be a bias against "Cherrypickers" in game, but in real life that is just a smart way to stay alive.
Voss and Ball would often fly alone after they had completed their briefed patrols, they would deliberately put themselves in situations where they would attack while vastly against the odds. Have you ever read "Flying Fury" by James McCudden? Have you ever read Arthur Rhys-Davids combat report of the shooting down of Voss? That is why i was making the link to the sublime skill in a dogfight. McCudden had fought Voss before, he said(don't have the exact quote so working on memory): "Met a very clever hun today who escaped by his superior aerobatics. At one stage i was so close that i could see his face clear enough to pick him out if i saw him with his squadron, i swear the pilot was grinning from ear to ear" while fighting alone against the odds. When they met again he showed he had the "sixth sense" to realise he was being bounced, fearlessness in attacking a flight of SE5's head on, anticipation to where his targets would be in attacking multiple targets in one pass, superb gunnery (he damaged most of the aircraft attacking him) and great ACM - I don't believe there is a primary factor in the making of a good pilot. On the other side, it was the discipline and experience of 56 Squadron, and leadership of McCudden which eventually killed Voss, he probably would have survived from a fight with a lesser squadron.
We were just on the point of engaging six Albatros Scouts away to our right, when we saw ahead of us, just above Poelcappelle, an S.E. half spinning down closely pursued by a silvery blue German triplane at very close range. The S.E. certainly looked very unhappy, so we changed our minds about attacking the six V-strutters, and went to the rescue of the unfortunate S.E.
The Hun triplane was practically underneath our formation now, and so down we dived at a colossal speed. I went to the right, Rhys-Davids to the left, and we got behind the triplane together. The German pilot saw us and turned in a most disconcertingly quick manner, not a climbing nor Immelmann turn, but a sort of flat half spin. By now the German triplane was in the middle of our formation, and its handling was wonderful to behold. The pilot seemed to be firing at all of us simultaneously, and although I got behind him a second time, I could hardly stay there for a second. His movements were so quick and uncertain that none of us could hold him in sight at all for any decisive time.
I now got a good opportunity as he was coming towards me nose on, and slightly underneath, and had apparently not seen me. I dropped my nose, got him well in my sight, and pressed both triggers. As soon as I fired up came his nose at me, and I heard clack-clack-clack-clack, as his bullets passed close to me and through my wings. I distinctly noticed the red-yellow flashes from his parallel Spandau guns. As he flashed by me I caught a glimpse of a black head in the triplane with no hat on at all.
By this time a red-nosed Albatros Scout had arrived, and was apparently doing its best to guard the triplane's tail, and it was well handled too. The formation of six Albatros Scouts which we were going to attack at first stayed above us, and were prevented from diving on us by the arrival of a formation of Spads, whose leader apparently appreciated our position, and kept the six Albatroses otherwise engaged.
The triplane was still circling round in the midst of six S.E.'s, who were all firing at it as opportunity offered, and at one time I noted the triplane in the apex of a cone of tracer bullets from at least five machines simultaneously, and each machine had two guns. By now the fighting was very low and the red-nosed Albatros had gone down and out, but the triplane still remained. I had temporarily lost sight of the triplane whilst changing a drum of my Lewis gun, and when I next saw him he was very low, still being engaged by an S.E. marked I, the pilot being Rhys-Davids. I noticed that the triplane's movements were very erratic, and then I saw him go into a fairly steep dive and so I continued to watch, and then saw the triplane hit the ground and disappear into a thousand fragments, for it seemed to me that it literally went to powder.
Strange to say, I was the only pilot who witnessed the triplane crash, for even Rhys-Davids, who finally shot it down, did not see its end.
It was now quite late, so we flew home to the aerodrome, and as long as I live I shall never forget my admiration for that German pilot, who single-handed fought seven of us for ten minutes, and also put some bullets through all of our machines. His flying was wonderful, his courage magnificent, and in my opinion he is the bravest German airman whom it has been my privilege to see fight.
We arrived back at the mess, and at dinner the main topic was the wonderful fight. We all conjectured that the enemy pilot must be one of the enemy's best, and we debated as to whether it was Richthofen or Wolff or Voss. The triplane fell in our lines, and the next morning we had a wire from the Wing saying that the dead pilot was found wearing the Boeleke collar and his name was Werner Voss. He had the "Ordre Pour le Merite."
Rhys-Davids came in for a shower of congratulations, and no one deserved them better, but as the boy himself said to me, "Oh, if I could only have brought him down alive," and his remark was in agreement with my own thoughts."
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As you say, luck played a huge part in the lives of the aces - MVR himself could have so easily been killed when he was injured in the head by an alert rear gunner on a two seater which he was attacking.
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<edit: double post>
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to land
I`ve heard of this theory.
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yes, he was.....as was eric hartman.....richtoffen died though when he broke his own rule, and became too focused on his prey......
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Who was "Eric Hartman"? Never heard of him and don't see him in the Lists of Aces.
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There's a difference bewteen "talent" and "skill."
You'd be surprised how many of us here could do reasonably well if you put us (supervised of course) behind the stick of some prop plane...
Yes I would be surprised.... :lol and I would be sure to bring the puke bags with me. A video game can only touch on what real flying is like but I enjoy playing and trying to match/compare the differences every time I'm on. One thing I can tell ya is this.... If you ever start flying lessons forget all you "learned" in this game as it will get ya killed real quick.
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Furball: Well, I was thinking about Richtoffen's fight against Lando Hawker...clearly neither the Red Baron nor Hartmann got where they did without skill at handling their airplanes...unlike some "cherrypickers" in this game.
I also honestly think that if you want to compare RL air combat in the prop-driven era to an aspect of our game, it should be the tank-driving, not the flying! Over and over in accounts of real air combat, it becomes apparent how the key to victory was seeing first and making a deadly shot first.
BTW, I myself am not big on actual flying, even though airplanes fascinate me as technical objects. Not fear in the white-knuckle, I'm-gonna-puke sense, just a sense that A. If everything goes as normal, I'm going to be bored, B. If everything does NOT go as normal, I'm going to be wishing for boredom. I suppose that whereas my Dad (the pilot in the family) feels a thrill when lift exceeds weight, I feel relief that someone has not canceled the laws of physics just to screw me over. :D I understand Werner Molders had similiar feelings, but overcame it and became a noted ace because of his strong hunter's instinct.
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Who was "Eric Hartman"? Never heard of him and don't see him in the Lists of Aces.
WW11.....352 kills, highest scoring ace of all time............german
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Who was "Eric Hartman"? Never heard of him and don't see him in the Lists of Aces.
check this link.....
http://www.acepilots.com/misc_hartmann.html
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50% of this game is the computer you have. This is a game....G forces and how well you can deal with that makes a real world fighter pilot.
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check this link.....
http://www.acepilots.com/misc_hartmann.html
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I see you know the internet.
I have another question.
Can you tell me what is a "karaya"? :devil
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Can you tell me what is a "karaya"? :devil
A denture adhesive: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karaya_gum :D
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A denture adhesive: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karaya_gum
Klugscheisser! :D
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:rofl
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Karaya knows about Erich Hartmann, but not eric hartman.
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A denture adhesive: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karaya_gum :D
well.....guess i don;t have to look that up now...... :aok
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yes, he was.....as was eric hartman.....richtoffen died though when he broke his own rule, and became too focused on his prey......
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I am probably wrong, but didn't he die rtb'ing from ground fire....a miraculous, impossible, shot if I remember correctly.
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Karaya knows about Erich Hartmann, but not eric hartman.
hhmm....apologies for the msispelling?
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I am probably wrong, but didn't he die rtb'ing from ground fire....a miraculous, impossible, shot if I remember correctly.
it was a miraculous shot...but my understanding was that he was still chasing the sopwith, although i could be wrong.....either way though, he broke his own rule, and stayed too focused on his prey for too long....his normal style was to stay above the fight, drop, pick, regain alt and wait for the next oppurtunity......kinda sounds familair? i think they also said he was never REALLY the same man after he was shot down the first time.....kind of like that injury took the wind out of his sails. he was still good, but nothing like he was before..if i recall from reading, he also was given a hero's burial, by the allies. even though history paints him as a badguy, when it all comes down to it, he was just a fighter pilot, doing his job........and he was a damned good one too.
as for Erich Hartmann, again, if i recall correctly, he did spend some years running a flight school. could you imagine taking flying lessons from the worlds highest scoring fighter pilot? the stories he must have had? we have a guy in our r/c club that flew ponys, and after the war got to test fly the 109's and 190's.........hard to get him going, but hwen we can, everyone pays attention to him....
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I am probably wrong, but didn't he die rtb'ing from ground fire....a miraculous, impossible, shot if I remember correctly.
The ground fire theory is really nothing more then speculation that really cannot be proven one way or another. Part of the problem being that all of the possible weapons used the same .303 ammunition, the machine guns in the plane, on the ground, even the infantry rifles.
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The ground fire theory is really nothing more then speculation that really cannot be proven one way or another. Part of the problem being that all of the possible weapons used the same .303 ammunition, the machine guns in the plane, on the ground, even the infantry rifles.
i think they DID however prove that roy brown could not have gotten into guns range when he dove on richtoffen......he would've gotten his aircraft wayyy too fast, and he had to pull out of the dive while just over 1,000 yards away. our 50 cals in here MIGHT hit at that distance, but the 303 calibre i think never would..........that with the fact that he was on the deck chasing his prey, leans much more towards the ground fire theory......
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i think they DID however prove that roy brown could not have gotten into guns range when he dove on richtoffen......he would've gotten his aircraft wayyy too fast, and he had to pull out of the dive while just over 1,000 yards away. our 50 cals in here MIGHT hit at that distance, but the 303 calibre i think never would..........that with the fact that he was on the deck chasing his prey, leans much more towards the ground fire theory......
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Oh I agree completely. Although, I would suggest using the word "prove" very cautiously. Always remember that the bits of evidence are mostly anecdotal, very very old, and of questionable quality. Distance estimates are especially questionable in this context.
But ya, most likely a golden BB.
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1 of my dads friends was a pilot IIRC and he did pretty well at AHII. But he quit in I think 05. :aok
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Karaya knows about Erich Hartmann, but not eric hartman.
eric cartman? :D
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eric cartman? :D
i was wondering when someone was gonna go there :rofl :rofl
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I try and watch what AKDogg does. He will never give you an advantage or a clean shot on him.
Same thing with Dutchie, I have DAed him a couple of times and I always get one shot, but wile I'm getting that shot and miss, he usually has the advantage by the next pass.
I found it just takes a lot of time and patience to get into a one on one fight with anyone. When I 1V1 someone It usualy will take me about 3 min. if they are not bad but it usually takes me about 9 min if they good.