Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Animl on June 04, 2008, 06:54:43 PM
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Following a 109 straight up on 3 occasions now. His 6 suddenly becomes the nose, no turning, no movements at all, as if the plane just turned inside out to a 180. I'm looking at the tail and watching the nose come right through it. I think I have 2 of these on film. Mow once or twice that I don't mention I attribute to game lag, but when I keep seeing the same thing over and over,... it's bigger then just lag and excuses.
Next the super stall uber tactic used by some in the MA, a maneuvers only a F model jet could make, and they exploit it on a regular basis (I will not mention them as to never give credit or recognition to a bunch of dweebs). Yes there were stalling that put the chaser as the target, but not like this. NO WAY I don't think any WWII AC could handle the stress from Full speed to a dead stop instantly with no damage. Breaking stress in a AC should be implemented.This is more commonly used by a group of people in the MA and swear it's normal. Then they refer to it being done with F-16s, great it can, But last I checked there is no F model jet AC in the game. Not only was it a move that required some luck in RL, it's done over and over and over within seconds, and they never seem to really lose any E. Sad part is they think this makes them great pilot because they learned how to exploit the code. They are also the biggest whiners in the MA ironically.
Now we will get a long flow of users of these techniques sign in and dispute this, and whine their way so it doesn't get corrected. I'm starting to see catering to the whinning seals a little. But this is not my first BBQ. Planes do not turn inside out and 180, and prop planes are not going to come to a dead stop like a car at a stop light from top speed.
It doesn't take a super intelligent brain to know it's just gaming the game, the only skill it requires is how to possibly exploit delay and holes in coding.
Is it possible to get these holes plugged>?
That is all, <G>
Animl
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Film.
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All speculation til we see what your talking about....
Strip
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Film is the only way to prove it.
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Film.
We'll never see it.
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Another vote for film, but not to watch it myself. For you to watch it.
I never could understand how some folks make some of these planes dance like they do. Watching a fight from their perspective on film is very enlightening.
Not saying there aren't FM loopholes...I just don't know where they are or how to exploit them.
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The 109 has a great rate of climb. What you are describing is called a 'rope', and real German fighter pilots used it to take advantage of the 109's climb ability. The thing is, when you go up your fighting gravity, which slows down your aircraft (it doesn't really put G forces on it, however). The reversal at the top is likely a hammerhead, which is pretty common among not just jet fighter aircraft (I guess) but among propellor driven aerobatic aircraft.
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yep Motherland hit that nail right on the head.
You are getting "roped". There is nothing magical or untoward happening to you. You are getting dragged up by someone who has more "E" until you stall out and become the snack of the minute.
If you see me in any of the arenas, feel free to give me a shout. I would be more than happy to help you learn how to recognize it and defend against it.
Also, pop into the TA and if there is a trainer in there they will be able to get you sorted out in short order.
My ingame handle is the same as my BBS handle.
cheers,
RTR
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Airframe breakup from high speed spins would be great, though.
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Airframe breakup from high speed spins would be great, though.
Is airframe stress even modeled in AH?? Now that I think of it I can't remember ever ripping my wings off in a High G pullout.
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Is airframe stress even modeled in AH?? Now that I think of it I can't remember ever ripping my wings off in a High G pullout.
Fly the 262 and you'll soon find out. I see spitfires do it occasionally also.
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Is airframe stress even modeled in AH?? Now that I think of it I can't remember ever ripping my wings off in a High G pullout.
Only longitudinal - as far as I've seen.. I think they'd probably break if you really overstressed them in such a spin, but it's pretty hard to get the planes into those high speed spins in AH. The best instance that people said looked like the plane should break up, but doesn't, was in the thread where Tango demonstrated his P51D flat plate. I'm pretty sure I can get the Ta152 to wig out about as bad at at least that speed, and it doesn't break either. The mossie's old spins also happened at high-medium speed, putting you in red/blackouts for the first few seconds, and it didn't break up either.
I don't think the models are rigged so that only controlled high G pullouts can cause damage (e.g. break one h-stab and the other seems to break from overstress).. Another possibility is that the pilot is counted as dead if there's a truly catastrophic breakup.. The only one that'd match this is the 163, and probably the 262 (people have said they sometimes explode for no reason during high G maneuvers).. But there's no way to tell if that's really a breakup or just the pilot going to mush.Fly the 262 and you'll soon find out. I see spitfires do it occasionally also.
I actualy saw a D9 rip his wings off the other day..
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This kid apparently doesn't understand a simple overshoot. Just because it doesn't look like he's moving doesn't mean he isn't. All motion is relative to yours. I haven't seen anything fishy nor any group of pilots "exploiting" the coad.
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Well, I didn't want to presume that the OP doesn't recognize a simple rope.
When I say film it and watch it from the other perspective, there's this trick I've seen alot of folks do where we'll merge and then go vertical and while I'm looking straight up at the other plane it's almost as if the plane is on a rubber band...it slings out and then is nose on my canopy and I'm getting pinged. I asked someone about it and then watched it on film and what the enemy is doing is pulling throttle and dropping flaps over the top. It's not something that is easy to discern (for me) in the middle of a fight, and I was always confounded by the maneuver until I broke it down on tape.
Another night I was getting spanked repeatedly by Storch in the AvA. So I taped a 1v1 and watched how he was manipulating his throttle and angles to out-turn me. I just couldn't figure it out until I watched it on tape.
With respect to G-force damage, I've lost more A-20's to pulling off the wings on pull-out than I have from getting shot down in a dogfight with one.
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Rope reverses are actualy slower than they should be, from what some experienced people have said.
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we cant do hammerheads here though or am I still AH1? instead of flipping does the plane not just lazily fall over?
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Ubber moves come forth from ubber hands. :salute
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This kid apparently doesn't understand a simple overshoot. Just because it doesn't look like he's moving doesn't mean he isn't. All motion is relative to yours. I haven't seen anything fishy nor any group of pilots "exploiting" the coad.
I'm 48, been flying sims since 94, and was a Tech and Game assitant, ran scenarios, reinvented a damage model (among many other things) for Air Warrior.
Now what?
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Rope reverses are actualy slower than they should be, from what some experienced people have said.
Ir onic you should say that since you were one of two who pulled in on me last night.
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I'm 48, been flying sims since 94, and was a Tech and Game assitant, ran scenarios, reinvented a damage model (among many other things) for Air Warrior.
Now what?
If you have any questions about that, ask around.
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I'm 48, been flying sims since 94, and was a Tech and Game assitant, ran scenarios, reinvented a damage model (among many other things) for Air Warrior.
Now what?
In that case you should know very well that such a posting without any film ist pretty vague and a rant at best.
Show us what "exploits" you are talking about and we can discuss/explain/complain. Else it's just guessing.
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we cant do hammerheads here though or am I still AH1? instead of flipping does the plane not just lazily fall over?
Nope, as fast as it is moving away from you, it's suddenly moving the opposite direction at you. There is NO and I mean NO visual flip of any kind , at all, period. I know better, I wouldn't be posting if I didn't view it many times. I'm not a whim poster. Just calling it exactly as I see it. And BTW at that point my FPS is 75-85.
What are the chances if it were to be UDP dropping packets would it ALWAYS be at a specific moment in a specific move? Me bet's, I'd pull my money off that table.
Animl
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In that case you should know very well that such a posting without any film ist pretty vague and a rant at best.
Show us what "exploits" you are talking about and we can discuss/explain/complain. Else it's just guessing.
Tell me what you use to convert films to AVI or something, it's just that easy. being a newbie to AH I just haven't gotten that far. I'm enjoying flying without doing anything else but flying and having fun. :)
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Tell me what you use to convert films to AVI or something, it's just that easy. being a newbie to AH I just haven't gotten that far. I'm enjoying flying without doing anything else but flying and having fun. :)
Hmm my bad, long day, I guess I don't really have to convert them do I?
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Is airframe stress even modeled in AH?? Now that I think of it I can't remember ever ripping my wings off in a High G pullout.
I used to routinely rip the wings of the 152 in my KG200 days.
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Ir onic you should say that since you were one of two who pulled in on me last night.
Yet you have no film.....
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In that case you should know very well that such a posting without any film ist pretty vague and a rant at best.
Show us what "exploits" you are talking about and we can discuss/explain/complain. Else it's just guessing.
Evidently I made like 30 films I'll have to find the right ones, will take some time, when I have it. My point is, this is common knowledge among many vets, some acting like it's the first time they heard about in this thread are actually using these techniques, and they are well aware of it. Why act like it's something new when you're actually using it,..if there's not a little more to it?
Yes it's a move, to a point, and in a fraction of a second it's something else.
When I find the right films I will make a new post with them. But coming to a BB when I normally don't to talk about something I've discounted myself on many other occasions is just not my style. Feel free to call me a liar if you must, I expected it before posting it....but without the films at all some know exactly what I am talking about.
This is not something that just came about this week. It just finally irritated me enough to say something about it. Watching one person pull the stall off on someone else like I dunno,.. maybe 8 times in 10-15 seconds, that's uberish. Doesn't seem to have anything to do with physics. <shrug>
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Well, I didn't want to presume that the OP doesn't recognize a simple rope.
When I say film it and watch it from the other perspective, there's this trick I've seen alot of folks do where we'll merge and then go vertical and while I'm looking straight up at the other plane it's almost as if the plane is on a rubber band...it slings out and then is nose on my canopy and I'm getting pinged. I asked someone about it and then watched it on film and what the enemy is doing is pulling throttle and dropping flaps over the top. It's not something that is easy to discern (for me) in the middle of a fight, and I was always confounded by the maneuver until I broke it down on tape.
Another night I was getting spanked repeatedly by Storch in the AvA. So I taped a 1v1 and watched how he was manipulating his throttle and angles to out-turn me. I just couldn't figure it out until I watched it on tape.
With respect to G-force damage, I've lost more A-20's to pulling off the wings on pull-out than I have from getting shot down in a dogfight with one.
Great reply,... great explanation, I happen to think it's more then that. He was also one that used it on me as well.
Question, if the flip is so fast, why are they still awake at all, should they no red out for a period of time? If they were to black or red out,... that shot would be done blind... you must have to be super uber to stand those type of forces and not pass out.
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When I find the right films I will make a new post with them. But coming to a BB when I normally don't to talk about something I've discounted myself on many other occasions is just not my style. Feel free to call me a liar if you must, I expected it before posting it....but without the films at all some know exactly what I am talking about.
The films will be highly welcome.
And for me, I don't know exactly, but I have very strong suspicion - because I have seen the same complaints quite a few times before, with following films proving it wasn't all that "fishy" as the players thought. ;)
Heck, in my beginnings I often thought "This is impossible!" myself (especially when fighting against those pesky F4U'S), but my films and some TA practice teached me otherwise...
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Yet you have no film.....
you don't read well do you, or you don't retain it. I said I have 2 films. Where would you like me to attach them to when I sort them out... Mr. Yet you have no films. We'll see how some are to that when I cough them up. Until then just call me a liar to keep it covered.
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Until then just call me a liar to keep it covered.
humble pie is in the oven; you want it with vanilla ice cream or without??
NOT
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megaupload.com
rapidshare.com
mediafire.com
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Years ago - different alias, different name, whatever----
I asked this same question. I felt what I was "seeing" was impossible. Basically, the explanation was pretty straightforward, I even think Pyro answered it (fuzzy memory here).
Basically, the answer was: What I was seeing was not representative of the true position of the aircraft in space. Lag, graphics capability, etc, etc... all caused the angle of attack/positioning of the target aircraft to appear slightly off of where it truly was. Another way to put it---when a spit was pulling back through it's lift vector after the merge, it might appear to be pointed straight up when in fact, from the target aircraft's cockpit, it (and it's pilot) are actually continuing a smooth transition back 180 into my aircraft. Visually, the angels were just a bit off. This usually only happens in quick/violent maneuvers. IN fact, just a few minutes ago - I jumped a 47 with a ton of E in my 190. It looked like the 47 slid on its tail while still travelling straight ahead. I know this was actually just a violent skid maneuver (nicely done by the way) that just looked like a UFO trick.
Hope this helps a bit.
Broc
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1. If you fly absolutely vertical you can hang there on your prop down to ~50mph*, using a little rudder and aileron to prevent rolling as long as possible. Then the plane will nose over to the left, practically swapping ends. (Sloppy hammerhead). If you are NOT roped, this is not a problematic move. Since you will have shot him, or gone nose low to get maneuvering speed and waited for him to come down.
2. Planes CAN sometimes swap ends without you SEEING it. This does not mean there is cheating, I think it means there are frame rate/lag issues. This is like how planes in online play sometimes seem to snap into banks/snap into turns instantly, otherwise move erratically...I chalk it up to bad frame rate and lag on my end.
*Okay, science guys explain this to me. My plane's clean stall speed is 100mph. How can I have enough air flowing over the surfaces to control my plane's torque AT ALL when my airspeed is more than 50mph below stall?*
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*Okay, science guys explain this to me. My plane's clean stall speed is 100mph. How can I have enough air flowing over the surfaces to control my plane's torque AT ALL when my airspeed is more than 50mph below stall?*
I think you are confusing stall speed a bit. Stall speed is the speed at which airflow over the wing becomes too non-laminar to generate lift. It doesn't mean that the control surfaces no-longer are deflecting enough air to create pitch/roll/yaw. In many aircraft, loss of control surface authority occurs when the AoA (angle of attack) is large enough to "blanket the tail surfaces in a sort of "shadow" of the wing (if you think of the airflow as light). In the situation that we are talking about, your forawrd vector (in this case straight up) in combination with your prop wash, provide enough airflow to counter act the roll rate generated from the engine's torque.
Simplified... Stall speed is nothing more then the speed at which the wing stops flying (from the tips inward). The control surfaces can be effective at slower speeds then that.
Imagine sticking a flat hand out of the car window at 25mph. Your hand isn't a more effeicient wing than what we find on aircraft, but if you change the angle you can feel the effects of air deflection even at speeds much much slower then even the most lift efficient aircraft can fly at. Really, it's high airspeeds that cause the much wonkier control loss due to compressibility. But that's something entirely different.
Ask me again tomorrow and I'll try and explain it more better. Bit late here and I'm tired, and my Aerospace Engineering days are far far behind me.
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Hi Animl,
I think you are getting a bad response on this due to the "uber gaming the game" accusation due to your lack of understanding about this move. But we can soon put all this "suspicion" to rest by simply showing you how it is done.
When I first started playing this majik move you speak of totally confused me. It took a long time for me to understand it. This move can be done in a variety of ways. In fact it can be done in a flat turn horizontally. The move is the same except for the angles involved. When in the verticle the angles are very close. When horizontal they are very obvious and don't look wierd.
First it is very easy to get somewhat disoriented when in the vert. When you are looking forward going verticle there is no reference for you to tell what is up, down or more specifically what is horizontal and what is verticle.
I KNOW exaclty what move you speak of and exactly how to perform it. The move is actually performed at about 20 to 40 mph. There are no super g's involved. IF you have ever seen an aerial aerobatic show you will see planes doing this move all the time. The closest thing to it is what is called the "hammerhead" and more specifically it is actually known as a "slice back" in combat ACM terms.
The move can be done in a real plane. The question is would you actually do this 500 feet from the ground in real life unless you were looking at tracers coming past you and you had no choice. But that is a totally different thread. If you flub it you would stall spin and crash. IF you did it at 10k you would have time to recover.
Ok I will try to explain it in words.
You are on the six of a 109. You are closing to guns perhaps in some oblique turn either horizontal or going verticle. By doing this you are drawing lead to the target. This lead is creating an AOT ( or Angle off Tail ) from the targets perspective. The more AOT created the better the move is.
109 goes immediate verticle by....chopping throttle...holding RIGHT rudder. HIts wep. rolls out flaps
You have a response time delay because you are dictated by what the 109 does. So you pull hard to follow and the MISTAKE....continue to draw lead because it looks like you are going to get a shot.
During your pull up the 109 has hit the breaks by flying "dirty". You have not.
At this point freeze both planes.....the 109 is perfectly verticle at 90 deg and beggining a "torking roll" to the left.
You are still AOT because your halfway through your pull up. So you have somewhere around 30 to 45 deg of angle difference. This means you are going up only at 45 to 80 degress while the 109 is beginng the reversal to down.
You see this and pull even harder for a shot. Your plane then starts to "mush" because you are pulling more AOA ( Angle of Attack) than the plane can do at your current speed and angle up. At this point you are SLOWING very fast and loosing maneuver ability.
Un freez our planes.
The 109 is now stalling and now goes full left rudder, pushes nose down, stalls the down wing and performs a "flik roll" in the verticle (A flik roll is a type of snap roll that all ww2 pilots used...you can look that up) This is done by pulling hard to back left. All flaps are out by now and the plane is moving at about 30 or so mph.
The throttle is now"pulled" off NOT chopped. It is then slamed on with wep. This allows the nose to be "torked" around by using only the engine tork. Since there is nearly no airsped and therefor no air over the wings the only thing that makes the nose snap around is the tork of the engine and the low wing stall at the same time.
The 109 nose is now quickly rotating around and pointing right at you for a shot.
Your plane is NOT verticle and gives the 109 a nice platform or nice front quarter shot at a distance of about 200 or even 100 and sometime point blank. You go BOOM.
The real trick for the 109 is to mask the slowing of the plane or to mask the "brakes". If done right it looks like the 109 is moving fast but in fact he is not but YOU ARE. Proper seperation of the two planes is criticle. If you close to the 109 on his reverse you just overshoot up and he will dive to get away. If done right you will be in guns.
109's have tremendous tork and can use this great effect in controlling the plane at stall.
This move can be done even with you inside 400 and going for guns at 150 mph after a turn chase and you will still get shot. Or it can be done at high speed by using more seperation and manipulating the angles.
The counter:
If you are NOT getting hits and pulling lead when a 109 goes strait verticle and you are NOT gaining then you are primed for this move. In this case as the 109 goes vert you push nose down and make a nose down flat turn to the OPPOSITE direction from your origianal turn. Most of the time the 109 will stall over to his left BUT it can be done to the right as well. But it doesn't matter. If the 109 is going vert he must take time to nose down or make the reverse. During this time you are seperating by nosing down (not diving) and turning to the right. Gain some energy and make a turn back to the 109 as he comesout of the vert to nose down. You are now set for a new merge.
Agent360
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Fly the 262 and you'll soon find out. I see spitfires do it occasionally also.
I ripped wings off a hog doing 600.... but i was just testing out a theory in the DA to see if it was possible... i just pulled back as far as i could blacked out and heard a shearing sound
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Hi Animl,
I think you are getting a bad response on this due to the "uber gaming the game" accusation due to your lack of understanding about this move. But we can soon put all this "suspicion" to rest by simply showing you how it is done.
When I first started playing this majik move you speak of totally confused me. It took a long time for me to understand it. This move can be done in a variety of ways. In fact it can be done in a flat turn horizontally. The move is the same except for the angles involved. When in the verticle the angles are very close. When horizontal they are very obvious and don't look wierd.
First it is very easy to get somewhat disoriented when in the vert. When you are looking forward going verticle there is no reference for you to tell what is up, down or more specifically what is horizontal and what is verticle.
I KNOW exaclty what move you speak of and exactly how to perform it. The move is actually performed at about 20 to 40 mph. There are no super g's involved. IF you have ever seen an aerial aerobatic show you will see planes doing this move all the time. The closest thing to it is what is called the "hammerhead" and more specifically it is actually known as a "slice back" in combat ACM terms.
The move can be done in a real plane. The question is would you actually do this 500 feet from the ground in real life unless you were looking at tracers coming past you and you had no choice. But that is a totally different thread. If you flub it you would stall spin and crash. IF you did it at 10k you would have time to recover.
Ok I will try to explain it in words.
You are on the six of a 109. You are closing to guns perhaps in some oblique turn either horizontal or going verticle. By doing this you are drawing lead to the target. This lead is creating an AOT ( or Angle off Tail ) from the targets perspective. The more AOT created the better the move is.
109 goes immediate verticle by....chopping throttle...holding RIGHT rudder. HIts wep. rolls out flaps
You have a response time delay because you are dictated by what the 109 does. So you pull hard to follow and the MISTAKE....continue to draw lead because it looks like you are going to get a shot.
During your pull up the 109 has hit the breaks by flying "dirty". You have not.
At this point freeze both planes.....the 109 is perfectly verticle at 90 deg and beggining a "torking roll" to the left.
You are still AOT because your halfway through your pull up. So you have somewhere around 30 to 45 deg of angle difference. This means you are going up only at 45 to 80 degress while the 109 is beginng the reversal to down.
You see this and pull even harder for a shot. Your plane then starts to "mush" because you are pulling more AOA ( Angle of Attack) than the plane can do at your current speed and angle up. At this point you are SLOWING very fast and loosing maneuver ability.
Un freez our planes.
The 109 is now stalling and now goes full left rudder, pushes nose down, stalls the down wing and performs a "flik roll" in the verticle (A flik roll is a type of snap roll that all ww2 pilots used...you can look that up) This is done by pulling hard to back left. All flaps are out by now and the plane is moving at about 30 or so mph.
The throttle is now"pulled" off NOT chopped. It is then slamed on with wep. This allows the nose to be "torked" around by using only the engine tork. Since there is nearly no airsped and therefor no air over the wings the only thing that makes the nose snap around is the tork of the engine and the low wing stall at the same time.
The 109 nose is now quickly rotating around and pointing right at you for a shot.
Your plane is NOT verticle and gives the 109 a nice platform or nice front quarter shot at a distance of about 200 or even 100 and sometime point blank. You go BOOM.
The real trick for the 109 is to mask the slowing of the plane or to mask the "brakes". If done right it looks like the 109 is moving fast but in fact he is not but YOU ARE. Proper seperation of the two planes is criticle. If you close to the 109 on his reverse you just overshoot up and he will dive to get away. If done right you will be in guns.
109's have tremendous tork and can use this great effect in controlling the plane at stall.
This move can be done even with you inside 400 and going for guns at 150 mph after a turn chase and you will still get shot. Or it can be done at high speed by using more seperation and manipulating the angles.
The counter:
If you are NOT getting hits and pulling lead when a 109 goes strait verticle and you are NOT gaining then you are primed for this move. In this case as the 109 goes vert you push nose down and make a nose down flat turn to the OPPOSITE direction from your origianal turn. Most of the time the 109 will stall over to his left BUT it can be done to the right as well. But it doesn't matter. If the 109 is going vert he must take time to nose down or make the reverse. During this time you are seperating by nosing down (not diving) and turning to the right. Gain some energy and make a turn back to the 109 as he comesout of the vert to nose down. You are now set for a new merge.
Agent360
well said
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109 goes immediate vertical by....chopping throttle...holding RIGHT rudder. HIts wep. rolls out flaps
Agent please clarify the above sentence from your post. In every plane I have flown, when you chop throttle, you are not able to engage WEP. I just don't quite understand what you mean. Do you throw throttle back on full, and then hit WEP?
BMWgs
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Hi Animl,
I think you are getting a bad response on this due to the "uber gaming the game" accusation due to your lack of understanding about this move. But we can soon put all this "suspicion" to rest by simply showing you how it is done.
When I first started playing this majik move you speak of totally confused me. It took a long time for me to understand it. This move can be done in a variety of ways. In fact it can be done in a flat turn horizontally. The move is the same except for the angles involved. When in the verticle the angles are very close. When horizontal they are very obvious and don't look wierd.
First it is very easy to get somewhat disoriented when in the vert. When you are looking forward going verticle there is no reference for you to tell what is up, down or more specifically what is horizontal and what is verticle.
I KNOW exaclty what move you speak of and exactly how to perform it. The move is actually performed at about 20 to 40 mph. There are no super g's involved. IF you have ever seen an aerial aerobatic show you will see planes doing this move all the time. The closest thing to it is what is called the "hammerhead" and more specifically it is actually known as a "slice back" in combat ACM terms.
The move can be done in a real plane. The question is would you actually do this 500 feet from the ground in real life unless you were looking at tracers coming past you and you had no choice. But that is a totally different thread. If you flub it you would stall spin and crash. IF you did it at 10k you would have time to recover.
Ok I will try to explain it in words.
You are on the six of a 109. You are closing to guns perhaps in some oblique turn either horizontal or going verticle. By doing this you are drawing lead to the target. This lead is creating an AOT ( or Angle off Tail ) from the targets perspective. The more AOT created the better the move is.
109 goes immediate verticle by....chopping throttle...holding RIGHT rudder. HIts wep. rolls out flaps
You have a response time delay because you are dictated by what the 109 does. So you pull hard to follow and the MISTAKE....continue to draw lead because it looks like you are going to get a shot.
During your pull up the 109 has hit the breaks by flying "dirty". You have not.
At this point freeze both planes.....the 109 is perfectly verticle at 90 deg and beggining a "torking roll" to the left.
You are still AOT because your halfway through your pull up. So you have somewhere around 30 to 45 deg of angle difference. This means you are going up only at 45 to 80 degress while the 109 is beginng the reversal to down.
You see this and pull even harder for a shot. Your plane then starts to "mush" because you are pulling more AOA ( Angle of Attack) than the plane can do at your current speed and angle up. At this point you are SLOWING very fast and loosing maneuver ability.
Un freez our planes.
The 109 is now stalling and now goes full left rudder, pushes nose down, stalls the down wing and performs a "flik roll" in the verticle (A flik roll is a type of snap roll that all ww2 pilots used...you can look that up) This is done by pulling hard to back left. All flaps are out by now and the plane is moving at about 30 or so mph.
The throttle is now"pulled" off NOT chopped. It is then slamed on with wep. This allows the nose to be "torked" around by using only the engine tork. Since there is nearly no airsped and therefor no air over the wings the only thing that makes the nose snap around is the tork of the engine and the low wing stall at the same time.
The 109 nose is now quickly rotating around and pointing right at you for a shot.
Your plane is NOT verticle and gives the 109 a nice platform or nice front quarter shot at a distance of about 200 or even 100 and sometime point blank. You go BOOM.
The real trick for the 109 is to mask the slowing of the plane or to mask the "brakes". If done right it looks like the 109 is moving fast but in fact he is not but YOU ARE. Proper seperation of the two planes is criticle. If you close to the 109 on his reverse you just overshoot up and he will dive to get away. If done right you will be in guns.
109's have tremendous tork and can use this great effect in controlling the plane at stall.
This move can be done even with you inside 400 and going for guns at 150 mph after a turn chase and you will still get shot. Or it can be done at high speed by using more seperation and manipulating the angles.
The counter:
If you are NOT getting hits and pulling lead when a 109 goes strait verticle and you are NOT gaining then you are primed for this move. In this case as the 109 goes vert you push nose down and make a nose down flat turn to the OPPOSITE direction from your origianal turn. Most of the time the 109 will stall over to his left BUT it can be done to the right as well. But it doesn't matter. If the 109 is going vert he must take time to nose down or make the reverse. During this time you are seperating by nosing down (not diving) and turning to the right. Gain some energy and make a turn back to the 109 as he comesout of the vert to nose down. You are now set for a new merge.
Agent360
I think this is the maneuver that Messiah1 use to kick my arse all the time =p. I think your option when you see it happening is kick right rudder and push that nose right to avoid the 109 coming down right on top of ya.
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Mo...............meet........ ....Ron! :aok
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109 goes immediate vertical by....chopping throttle...holding RIGHT rudder. HIts wep. rolls out flaps
Agent please clarify the above sentence from your post. In every plane I have flown, when you chop throttle, you are not able to engage WEP. I just don't quite understand what you mean. Do you throw throttle back on full, and then hit WEP?
BMWgs
Made a slight typing error there I guess. It should read:
109 goes immediate vertical by....chopping throttle...holding RIGHT rudder. Roll flaps out. when flaps start coming out go full throttle and wep.
The order in which this happens depends on your initial speed on the pull up. If you are going 300+ then it is the order stated. If you are already stalling in a turn then you dont chop at all you just roll flat and pull up using rudder to control the tendancy to snap roll. You may already have flaps and wep going. In that case it's the same move but you just have to pull off the flik roll and tork roll together. You may or may not reduce throttle it just depends on how much seperation you get on the pull up. The move doesnt always work so you may chop anyway to create an overshoot instead of going for guns.
chopping throttle - allows the plane to decelerate some as u put g load when pulling up. You can just pull up with throttle full but you will find that the power of the plane forces a wider angle or larger circle going up than if you chop it first.
Holding right rudder - this is the "brakes" you want to decelerate enough to get the flaps out as fast as possible.
Full throttle and wep - You are now fighting gravity and you need to keep going up to create the Angle off tail for the reverse. And you need the engine tork to roll with.
Roll out all flaps - You need the flaps to slow further at the top and to "float" during the roll over. The tork and wing stall turn the plane.
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I think this is the maneuver that Messiah1 use to kick my arse all the time =p. I think your option when you see it happening is kick right rudder and push that nose right to avoid the 109 coming down right on top of ya.
"used" to kick my arse?? :rofl
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Thanks
BMWgs
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lol @ this thread
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I never notice anyone doing this magic move to me. I guess I don't pay attention. ..When I got really good at Air Warrior back in the day, there was hardly anyone who could beat me 1v1 in Full Realism. One guy I remember kicking my bellybutton was +Dead or DeadF (Leviathon in AH)...I used to watch film after film and at one point I thought he was exploiting something. It then hit me one day, and I figured out what he was doing...I felt like an idiot. He wasn't cheating..he was just better than me.
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He wasn't cheating..he was just better than me.
For emphasis.
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ive seen this happen alot. its not only with the 109. ive seen it with the f6f and the a20. i can be 200 to 400 off their six and then the plane turns inside out and ho's me. i had plenty of E and was in the process of killing him. :furious
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Agent, great step to step guide, I always wondered how it's done. I think it would help a lot to see it in action. Any movie you can give us?
"used" to kick my arse?? :rofl
He wrote "use", SR... pair of glasses? ;)
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Following a 109 straight up on 3 occasions now. His 6 suddenly becomes the nose, no turning, no movements at all, as if the plane just turned inside out to a 180.
Actually, that happened to me last night v. a 51. Figured it was just lag.
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Question, if the flip is so fast, why are they still awake at all, should they no red out for a period of time? If they were to black or red out,... that shot would be done blind... you must have to be super uber to stand those type of forces and not pass out.
The forces are quite low since this is done at low speed - the rotation rate is high. You can run around yourself in a circle and it will take only 2 seconds. Now run at 300 mph and try to complete a circle in 2 seconds. If you insist on math, acceleration in circular motion is a=wv, where w is the angular velocity and v is the forward velocity.
And we are still waiting for the film because I do not understand the second maneuver you talk about. I did experience the first one, but I've never seen it on film to verify what is really happening.
Simplified... Stall speed is nothing more then the speed at which the wing stops flying (from the tips inward). The control surfaces can be effective at slower speeds then that.
Stall speed is the minimal speed at which the plane is still able to maintain 1 G flight. It doesn't mean that you immediately enter a stall if the airspeed hits this number. You can "fly" slower without stalling, but you will be loosing altitude.
I do believe that planes in AH are too responsive at very low speeds. What I remember from stall practices with light planes is that the stick became very unresponsive, as if it is connected by weak rubber bands to the surfaces. It doesn't feel like that in the game, the nose still bounces happily and the ailerons work just fine.
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..
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Is airframe stress even modeled in AH?? Now that I think of it I can't remember ever ripping my wings off in a High G pullout.
I've ripped the wings off of or snapped half of one or both off in a A-20, F6F-5, Spit and Ta-152 all purely based on stress. At least those are the ones I can remember immediately.
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The question is whether we can rip planes apart by stress from spins, not just pulling hard in regular flight.
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The question is whether we can rip planes apart by stress from spins, not just pulling hard in regular flight.
I've never seen it. I was responding to this: "Now that I think of it I can't remember ever ripping my wings off in a High G pullout."
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Nevermind.
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I do believe that planes in AH are too responsive at very low speeds. What I remember from stall practices with light planes is that the stick became very unresponsive, as if it is connected by weak rubber bands to the surfaces. It doesn't feel like that in the game, the nose still bounces happily and the ailerons work just fine.
i agree with that one.. in fact they are way too responsive compared with other flight sims
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I never notice anyone doing this magic move to me. I guess I don't pay attention. ..When I got really good at Air Warrior back in the day, there was hardly anyone who could beat me 1v1 in Full Realism. One guy I remember kicking my bellybutton was +Dead or DeadF (Leviathon in AH)...I used to watch film after film and at one point I thought he was exploiting something. It then hit me one day, and I figured out what he was doing...I felt like an idiot. He wasn't cheating..he was just better than me.
WHOA wait a minute, I'm not acussing anyone of actually cheating, but there are some exploits me thinks.
At this point, most everyone is better then I. But then I'm not worried about being "great" I'm just here to have fun, I rarely even bother landing kills, I just stay and die.
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lol @ this thread
I'll take your subject up in another thread.
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Agent, excellent reply, both. :)
This is what I needed, not a bunch of denial and acting ignorant to it. Like some who use it are acting like here in this thread. Some other posted some ideas that seem to mesh with this like over responsive stick at low speeds. This is where it needs to be plugged.
IMO,...Pulling it off is one thing, pulling it off when it shouldn't have a chance is another. A very fine line.
There is an area where I am lacking as the FE of AW and the FE of AH is much different, AH being more modern technically and superior. SO it's not like I don't know sims, personas, or ACM, I'm still learning what this FE is about. What can be done in this game and what can't.
Somethings need some tweaking IMO. I don't think these moves should be able to be done so easily if the stick is more responsive at low speeds then it should be. I think drag is a little light too, but that's just me. But these tiny elements make it more possible then it should be >IMO< Show me mo data, convince me. I don't whine with closed ears.
IMO with these things tweaked pulling these moves off would require more realistic skill.
The fact that certain things prolly aren't on the money makes it easier to exploit it's weaknesses. It doesn't mean I say someone is "cheating" that's more a forcing or manipulation of code, but I do think there is a level of exploitation when the math isn't exact and they know it.
In AW if you were filmed exploiting a bug, you got your hands smacked hard by a GA.
I think if I were wrong, some people who are responding here, who ACT like they have to no idea it exist, but are actually the ones using it, tells a story in itself. Why the denial? 3 of them are in this thread but won't talk about it flat out. They are waiting to see if their only leverage toy gets adjustments or not. Without it they just aren't all that, it seems to be all they have, besides HOing and extensive whining on 200. Most people who whine on 200 are hypocrites, because 3 minutes later you will witness them doing what they whine about in others. Makes me vomit. :)
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I do believe that planes in AH are too responsive at very low speeds. What I remember from stall practices with light planes is that the stick became very unresponsive, as if it is connected by weak rubber bands to the surfaces. It doesn't feel like that in the game, the nose still bounces happily and the ailerons work just fine.
i agree with that one.. in fact they are way too responsive compared with other flight sims
these aren't "light" planes.
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Agent, excellent reply, both. :)
This is what I needed, not a bunch of denial and acting ignorant to it. Like some who use it are acting like here in this thread. Some other posted some ideas that seem to mesh with this like over responsive stick at low speeds. This is where it needs to be plugged.
IMO,...Pulling it off is one thing, pulling it off when it shouldn't have a chance is another. A very fine line.
There is an area where I am lacking as the FE of AW and the FE of AH is much different, AH being more modern technically and superior. SO it's not like I don't know sims, personas, or ACM, I'm still learning what this FE is about. What can be done in this game and what can't.
Somethings need some tweaking IMO. I don't think these moves should be able to be done so easily if the stick is more responsive at low speeds then it should be. I think drag is a little light too, but that's just me. But these tiny elements make it more possible then it should be >IMO< Show me mo data, convince me. I don't whine with closed ears.
IMO with these things tweaked pulling these moves off would require more realistic skill.
The fact that certain things prolly aren't on the money makes it easier to exploit it's weaknesses. It doesn't mean I say someone is "cheating" that's more a forcing or manipulation of code, but I do think there is a level of exploitation when the math isn't exact and they know it.
In AW if you were filmed exploiting a bug, you got your hands smacked hard by a GA.
I think if I were wrong, some people who are responding here, who ACT like they have to no idea it exist, but are actually the ones using it, tells a story in itself. Why the denial? 3 of them are in this thread but won't talk about it flat out. They are waiting to see if their only leverage toy gets adjustments or not. Without it they just aren't all that, it seems to be all they have, besides HOing and extensive whining on 200. Most people who whine on 200 are hypocrites, because 3 minutes later you will witness them doing what they whine about in others. Makes me vomit. :)
so you got roped and now are getting paranoid about the responses to your being roped and calling it cheating. :aok
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Somethings need some tweaking IMO. I don't think these moves should be able to be done so easily if the stick is more responsive at low speeds then it should be. I think drag is a little light too, but that's just me. But these tiny elements make it more possible then it should be >IMO< Show me mo data, convince me. I don't whine with closed ears.
I don't think it's a matter of stick responsiveness. From what Agent said, most of the work is done with rudder and throttle, with engine giving the most important contribution to the success of the maneuver, both with torque and the air stream it "blows" on the rudder.
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IMO with these things tweaked pulling these moves off would require more realistic skill.
Did you not read agents post that is a hard to pull manoeuvre. All the flaps, rudder, and throttle control involved. Three things that most novices and all the way up to intermediate people bother with. In fact I used to fly full throttle all the time in a fight until a few days ago when I learned how important it is from Agent 360's films. I would love to try that though sounds fun.
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Got those films yet of this ... "exploit" ?
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I'm not saying anything untill I see the Vid. If anything, send it to someone and they will do it for you.
Hers my Email adress: Bosco123@embarqmail.com
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lol, I see animl still whining, I was there, you got pwned end of story.
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I posted a thread regarding airframe stress relating to the the very unrealistic manuevers that are commonly implemented in the game, I.E. slamming from very high postive to negative G over and over.. which is what you often see when a n00b is trying to dive away from you but your are still gaining, so at 400+ MPH as a last resort he starts slamming the stick around making the plane jerk up and down abruptly and rapidly, massive positive/negative/positive/negative g loading at very high speed, its a give in that the pilot would probably not be able to tolerate such abuse, but my question was if the airframe and control services would hold together..
considering your already at or very near the aircrafts maximum dive speed, then continually pummeling the controls and airframe to extremely violent movements and g-loads, I would doubt it.
as for what is described in the yet to be seen film(s) never seen it, the only similar thing ive seen is a few times aircraft I am trying to catch in a climb suddenly just start to slowly rotate.. but do not change direction, or speed.. they just slowly spin some random direction while continuing upward at a steady rate.. ive never been shot down as a direct result of this, but ive seen it a handful of times, never the same pilot twice though, I think its a flook/lag and was probably not intentional, if it was, it was a pretty crappy cheat.
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Got those films yet Animl ?
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Yes it is a VERY hard maneuver to pull off and requires perfect set up, timing and execution. Those that can do it every time perfectly have been flying for years and practiced it thousands of times.
The one player who comes to mind who can do this is "Platano". In fact he is the one who finally clued me in on how to actually pull the maneuver off correctly. After I figured out what was actually happening it then took another 6 months to learn just the reverse at the top. Then about another 4 months to learn how to bait the target into it and when I could and could not make it happen.
The coordination of timing, throttle, rudder, flaps and angle can't be done like I wrote it out. It all has to be done together "almost" simutaneously. The hardest part is understanding what the plane is doing and not becoming disoriented during the maneuver. A key skill is learning to begin the move all the way to the reverse at the top by looking back the whole time. After perfecting it you can do it without looking back at all because you will know almost exactly where the target will be.
I have since shown many players how to do this move. Some get it almost immediatly. But others just become confused and it takes them a bit longer to understand.
About "gaming the game" or "exploiting inherint faults"
I do not believe this is even close to an exploit or even gaming the game. First the flight model we have here is the closest thing you will find in a "consumer" online or offline game. However there are certain things that CAN NOT be modeled into the code unless you had 25 genius programmers and you had millions of dollars to pay for it. And if it did exist you would need a super computer to run all the flight model computations to accuratly simulate reality. This is just not realistic and further it is not really needed.
If you look into HOW a real plane actually flys you will find that even in the real world real aerodynamic engineers can't firgure out how to accomplish certain tasks. Yet you expect this code to be a perfect representation of reality. Good god man they can't even figure it out for real.
There will ALWAYS be certain things that just can't modeled into this game. And therefore they will always be certain aspects of this flight model that do not depict reality perfectly. But is pretty dam close. Close enough for me anyway.
Further the magic move we have been discussing is in fact actually possible in a real plane. Even further it is possible in a real 109. There are documented stories of this move being pulled by german aces. I can not find any online documentation of this but I have read stories in several books about this.
See this link
http://www.answers.com/topic/aerobatic-maneuver (http://www.answers.com/topic/aerobatic-maneuver)
Below is an explanation a "hammerhead stall turn". The move I describe on my earlier post is "almost the same thing but it is altered slightly depending on the angle of your attack and the angle of your target in order to get a guns solution.
A quote from this page:
1/4 loop (pull or push) to vertical, as momentum/airspeed decreases, rudder is applied and the aircraft rotates around its yaw axis, the nose falls through the horizon and points towards the ground, a momentary pause is made to draw the vertical down line, and 1/4 loop to level flight. This figure is sometimes called a stall turn which is a misnomer because the aircraft never actually stalls. The manoeuvre is performed when the aeroplane decelerates through 20 - 30kts (more or less, depending on the aeroplane flown) of airspeed. The cartwheel portion of the hammerhead is performed with full rudder and full opposite aileron. Gyroscopic forces from the propeller during the rapid rate of yaw will produce a pitching and rolling moment and a degree of forward stick will be required to keep the aeroplane from coming off-line over the top. The yaw is stopped with opposite rudder while the ailerons and elevator remain in position, then once the yaw is stopped and the aeroplane is pointed down vertically, all controls are returned to neutral together. Although they can be flown left or right in any aeroplane with the proper technique, a hammerhead is best flown to the left with a clockwise rotating prop, and to the right with an anticlockwise rotating prop (as in a Yakovlev type), due to propeller torque/gyroscopic effects.
See it in a real plane
http://youtube.com/watch?v=zJngdbHAXyg (http://youtube.com/watch?v=zJngdbHAXyg)
http://youtube.com/watch?v=CtT0KPi0bcI (http://youtube.com/watch?v=CtT0KPi0bcI)
http://youtube.com/watch?v=tQfhed4O_iI (http://youtube.com/watch?v=tQfhed4O_iI)
I rest my case.
Agent360
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Do you have any videos of this manuever Agent 360 I would like to see it and if you don't could you terach me? My ingame is theace47 and email is spencerweston3214@gmail.com
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Do you have any videos of this manuever Agent 360 I would like to see it and if you don't could you terach me? My ingame is theace47 and email is spencerweston3214@gmail.com
I do have some films with this move but I just dont know where the are or where they are in these films.
But in the interest of total completness I will make a film and post it on this thread.
Sort of off topic but if you can pull this watermelon off in aces high then I will bow down and admit to gaming the game. :eek:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=XZQDwRKHCSQ (http://youtube.com/watch?v=XZQDwRKHCSQ)
Agent360
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This may of further interest
http://www.answers.com/topic/messerschmitt-bf-109 (http://www.answers.com/topic/messerschmitt-bf-109)
scroll down a bit and you will find a great description of the 109k4
Agent360
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so you got roped and now are getting paranoid about the responses to your being roped and calling it cheating. :aok
Don't you have a striped ball to spin, or are you maybe upset that I may have exposed your only talents, that exist based on *possible* erroneous math?
Something tells me both are strong possibilities, which is why I could be confused.
You seem to be another one who has issues retaining things. I never said anyone "cheated", in fact I challenege you to post the statement where I said it. Somehow I imagine I won't need to look for it anytime soon.
Since you're another one who uses these methods in wild abandon, I expected this very exact post from you and your pals in denial, specifically. I think I blew the nail through the board. But maybe you just don't know the difference between cheating, exploiting and uber.
I called them "Uber" not "Cheat". It's quite possible the Uber part could be aided by an exploitation. Which means there's a maybe a small tweak that needs to be made. But I know that wouldn't upset you if it were to be corrected since you don't do things like that. :) <wink>
:)
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Where're the films?
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lol, I see animl still whining, I was there, you got pwned end of story.
I don't care if I am killed, I never complain about being killed unless it's baby seal HO. I don't care about points, I don't care about point mongers, and I almost never intend to make it back to base. Nor do anyone's braggin of so called skills impress me a bit. The conduct totally blows that into the "I could give a......"
So no I am NOT complaining I got roped, I am bringing forward the method that's being used to do it, which I have seen in many other situations. These people just use them the most of all I have seen.
I get shot down 100 times a night, why would I come in to this BB and complain about 1 or 2 and mask it with something else? <eye roll>
If that were the Subject the title would Be "Hypocrite whining by Muppets in the MA by makes me vomit profusely"
Animl
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So no I am NOT complaining I got roped, I am bringing forward the method that's being used to do it, which I have seen in many other situations. These people just use them the most of all I have seen.
Animl
Why not just watch the film with the trails on, and try and figure out a way to counter it?
The move is an offshoot of a hammerhead, and it is a hard move to counter when you're not expecting it. I have been able to counter it a couple of times but, since i never seem to film the really good fights where i win, i'm not exactly sure what i did.
I think as they were going vertical and preparing to flip back around, i went into a steep climb at a very odd angle. This gave me enough seperation to follow them visually, but to keep there guns off me as they came back down. Somehow or another i was able to stay in the vertical a second or two longer them, and get my nose around to follow them down.
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well this was an interesting thread :lol
hey Troy nice to see you come along and get that move down packed :salute
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I get shot down 100 times a night, why would I come in to this BB and complain about 1 or 2 and mask it with something else? <eye roll>
If that were the Subject the title would Be "Hypocrite whining by Muppets in the MA by makes me vomit profusely"
Animl
Lie down on the couch and let it all out.. After you post the films, since that's the good excuse for this whole panty knot and the only interesting thing the average player might get from the thread, besides Agent's tutorials.
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Animl,
I was chasing a top 2 rank pilot not long ago and the same thing happened to me. We were in a shallow 400mph climb, him in a dora and me in a pony. I was 1000 back and gaining, just waiting to get within 400 to start firing. But the same time I'm looking all around checking to see if anyone is eyeballing me. and when I get to 600 his guns light up, i break right trying to avoid the cannons and end up colliding with his wing. I just caulked it up as he reversed when i was checking my 6. I thought it was BS but the kid is a good stick and I guess it's possible. The guys you're talking about are good sticks also but that doesn't make them cheaters.Just tricky.Film these engagments all you'll understand. Posting here in this forum without film is just putting yourself up as a guy that got pawned and got pissed about it. :salute
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Where're the films?
what he said.
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The most common high speed stalls in ah2 are on the roll axis from too much rudder and elevator combined, and actualy most planes could probably handle this stress easily unless they have abnormally long or weak wings. The one thing that makes our spins so easy compared to real life is that you dont get crushed down into your seat or have your harness cutting through your shoulders and your arms pinned and legs completely disabled.
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Lie down on the couch and let it all out.. After you post the films, since that's the good excuse for this whole panty knot and the only interesting thing the average player might get from the thread, besides Agent's tutorials.
Is that what your pinhole vision sees this thread being about? You're kidding me right?
Tell you what, you whiners fly your own planes the way you want, and we'll fly our own planes the way we want, and if you don't like the rest of us fly, get a second account and go fight yourself silly. Your perpetual sniveling means nothing to me other then irritating like a spoiled child screaming none stop and trying tho read through the tripe on the text buffer.
But if you think it matters to me or angers me in any way that you or anyone else in this game killed me, then I suggest you've become completely absorbed with yourself, and your ego has been scrambled with a needle.
It's about the maneuvers and what may be wrong in the game that would make them much easier then they should be.
Don't ever think you rank that high on my chart that it actually matters to me if you kill me. It doesn't, get over it.
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I do believe that planes in AH are too responsive at very low speeds. What I remember from stall practices with light planes is that the stick became very unresponsive, as if it is connected by weak rubber bands to the surfaces. It doesn't feel like that in the game, the nose still bounces happily and the ailerons work just fine.
in agree with that one. i think at low speeds the AH FM makes the stick way too responsive and kind of care-free handling
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Please put up the film.
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Animl, no offense but all your ranting proves you lack any knowledge of the game, if the game sucks so much why bother to continue after your two week trial is up?
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Animl,
You have been giving a very comprehensive explanation of the move and how it happens and how to do it.
There is nothing wrong with the game.
If you want to keep on about how the game should be changed there are other forums here where that is discussed. That has been discussed and discussed some more.
With all due respect - If you want to learn how to fly in this game you will get plenty of help as I have tried to do. But if you insist on blaming the flight model on your begginer flying tactics you will get nothing but flames and more grief.
I will be glad to show you some stuff myself. Catch me in the game sometime and just ask.
You really should take the time and post the film. I host websites and have a server. If you send it to me I will be glad to post if for you. JUst PM me on here on the forum with your email and I will contact you.
Agent360
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Sort of off topic but if you can pull this watermelon off in aces high then I will bow down and admit to gaming the game. :eek:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=XZQDwRKHCSQ (http://youtube.com/watch?v=XZQDwRKHCSQ)
Agent360
Impressive. I saw pictures of the MATV, but never saw the thing on a movie. It's astonishing how fast the nozzle moves, I thought it was slower, it's as fast as the elevator... really impressive.
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:rofl First of all. Never, ever, come in here saying something may be wrong with the game. This game has been perfect in every aspect since day one. Ask, they will tell you.
Second, yes, (no film) but I have seen it. I have seen it from some of the posters in this thread. You are on his tail (or you think you are) and next thing you know you are getting a tater in your face. Anyone in here talking about this being a rope really did not care to read what the guy described or has no imagination what so ever.
I do think however that it is probably the way the FE displays things. I don't thing they are performing some kind of "magic". It is probably a graphics problem that does not allow you to see the plane rotating when slow and in the vert (combined with a little bit of disorientation) until it is too late.
Then again, you never know, but since no one came out to describe how to perform that move, I think it is just a graphics issue.
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Don't ever think you rank that high on my chart that it actually matters to me if you kill me. It doesn't, get over it.
wanna bet? I bet we go to the DA and it will bother you how bad I slap you around that arena. :aok
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Then again, you never know, but since no one came out to describe how to perform that move, I think it is just a graphics issue.
Did you read the whole thread ? ... or just skip over Agent360's posts ... :rolleyes:
Hey Animl ... find those films yet ?
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wanna bet? I bet we go to the DA and it will bother you how bad I slap you around that arena. :aok
Do you ever slip and challenge real people you know and work with to duels in the DA?
I'm guessing you strut around with a scarf around your neck and gloves tucked in your pocket in real life. When someone says something that might be construed as a slight, you pop out those gloves, smack the person across both cheeks, and then ask them, "Do you want to go to the DA?! I'll prove that I'm right and you're wrong!"
Yeah, I think that's what you do.
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Do you ever slip and challenge real people you know and work with to duels in the DA?
I'm guessing you strut around with a scarf around your neck and gloves tucked in your pocket in real life. When someone says something that might be construed as a slight, you pop out those gloves, smack the person across both cheeks, and then ask them, "Do you want to go to the DA?! I'll prove that I'm right and you're wrong!"
Yeah, I think that's what you do.
:rofl You decided to type to me again? Shut it lil dweeb boi and go back under your porch. :aok
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Did you read the whole thread ? ... or just skip over Agent360's posts ... :rolleyes:
Hey Animl ... find those films yet ?
Well, I don't think Agents post has anything to do with what I have seen. I am just trying to explain what I have seen and what the cause may be. I've dueled Agent many times and to be honest, I have not seen him pull anything like that. Maybe the opportunity was not there, but in any case, I do seem to get confused on the vert at slow speeds about if the guy is going or coming. Is that really related to anything Agent said or anything anyone else said for that matter. It is just my opinion about my experiences. (I think the right think to do is to roll my eyes now? :rolleyes:)
To be honest, what Agent described sounds like a death wish
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hey Ded i have had it before when poor visibility (owing to a poor computer) has confused me for a second to which direction a plane is pointing. I'm sure i have never seen a 'warp' at the top of a rope. I am curious, as you have a slightly better reputation for honest facts in this game than the first guy to post this here :D so Im interested to know wht you have seen happen.
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well, without seeing film...
a) if the plane is doing a rope, it could be very slow at the edge of a stall, and flip over naturally, which can appear weird if you're not looking, or a slight delay in position updates.
b) the original poster is very rusty and forgot the subleties/quirks of this game.
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Only longitudinal - as far as I've seen.. I think they'd probably break if you really overstressed them in such a spin, but it's pretty hard to get the planes into those high speed spins in AH. The best instance that people said looked like the plane should break up, but doesn't, was in the thread where Tango demonstrated his P51D flat plate. I'm pretty sure I can get the Ta152 to wig out about as bad at at least that speed, and it doesn't break either. The mossie's old spins also happened at high-medium speed, putting you in red/blackouts for the first few seconds, and it didn't break up either.
I don't think the models are rigged so that only controlled high G pullouts can cause damage (e.g. break one h-stab and the other seems to break from overstress).. Another possibility is that the pilot is counted as dead if there's a truly catastrophic breakup.. The only one that'd match this is the 163, and probably the 262 (people have said they sometimes explode for no reason during high G maneuvers).. But there's no way to tell if that's really a breakup or just the pilot going to mush.I actualy saw a D9 rip his wings off the other day..
I can see potentially losing the vert stab or aft fuselage in a high speed spin, and of course wing mounted ordinance/racks, but I think the sink rate needs to be pretty extreme. That way the combined vertical and lateral loads may just be high enough to break something. But IMO the failure is going to be in the fuselage, probably in the rear. Never in in the wing.
And yes I have personally ripped the wings off a D9. Do ~480mph @ SL, pull HARD and you can too. :D
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I only made it through the first page. Are there any films yet?
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(I think the right think to do is to roll my eyes now? :rolleyes:)
Or maybe you need to just go get your eyes checked ya old fart ... :D
I too have seen planes coming at me, whether I am in a climb or a dive, and thought that I was "behind" them and to my surprize I am "facing" them. I just chalk it up to old eyes and/or a graphics glitch. For the infrequent amount of times that it happens to me ... not a big deal in the larger scheme of things.
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It happens somethimes. One night I was chasing NKL5 toward the deck against a dark background near tank town on NDIsles. The next thing I know he's flying straight toward me. I never saw him turn. I'm sure he didn't do anything wrong, just a visibility issue on my part (eyes or game... who knows).
Similarly, one night I was fighting a guy over water at dusk. I lost him for a split second and the next thing I knew he was coming straight at me ~200 out. All I could do was pull the trigger. That amounted to a "I didn't expect you to HO" exchange on PM. It ended up all good.
I definately have vision issues against the darker terrain backgrounds at times.
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Or maybe you need to just go get your eyes checked ya old fart ... :D
I too have seen planes coming at me, whether I am in a climb or a dive, and thought that I was "behind" them and to my surprize I am "facing" them. I just chalk it up to old eyes and/or a graphics glitch. For the infrequent amount of times that it happens to me ... not a big deal in the larger scheme of things.
But, that is what I also said ancient one :furious
Actually the eye/monitor thingie was going to be my response to Bat.
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Do you ever slip and challenge real people you know and work with to duels in the DA?
I'm guessing you strut around with a scarf around your neck and gloves tucked in your pocket in real life. When someone says something that might be construed as a slight, you pop out those gloves, smack the person across both cheeks, and then ask them, "Do you want to go to the DA?! I'll prove that I'm right and you're wrong!"
Yeah, I think that's what you do.
I have much respect for Skyrock, he's a good guy, but that's funny! :lol :rofl :lol
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hey Ded i have had it before when poor visibility (owing to a poor computer) has confused me for a second to which direction a plane is pointing. I'm sure i have never seen a 'warp' at the top of a rope. I am curious, as you have a slightly better reputation for honest facts in this game than the first guy to post this here :D so Im interested to know wht you have seen happen.
Not really a warp. I actually don't see anything and then realize that he has reversed and he is coming straight at me. I think graphics settings, old eyes, or getting your eyes off target for a split second could do it. I vote for graphics
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ill make a 109 turn so sharp you will think its a a6m. the 109K once you learn to hold its stall with go from 400 to 80 in 2 seconds.
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Any luck on finding those films yet Animl ?
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film at 11:00
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The film will never come. :rolleyes:
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Animl - No one gives a crap what's gotten your 48 year old panties in a knot, or if "your chart" is the new "score" everyone's supposed to rank high on... It's starting to sound like you're senile early. Where's the films?
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ill make a 109 turn so sharp you will think its a a6m.
For some strange reason ... I don't think I will ... ;)
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I have much respect for Skyrock, he's a good guy, but that's funny! :lol :rofl :lol
Shhh. Don't tell anyone, but he's okay in my book too.
I just like to give him a hard time. He makes it easy.
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Film.....
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Film.....
Never going to happen.
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Well, I don't think Agents post has anything to do with what I have seen. I am just trying to explain what I have seen and what the cause may be. I've dueled Agent many times and to be honest, I have not seen him pull anything like that. Maybe the opportunity was not there, but in any case, I do seem to get confused on the vert at slow speeds about if the guy is going or coming. Is that really related to anything Agent said or anything anyone else said for that matter. It is just my opinion about my experiences. (I think the right think to do is to roll my eyes now? :rolleyes:)
ummmm. ummmmm. Perhaps you are a little confused.
It has absolutly everything to do with it. I have heard this same thing from newer players and rookie 109 drivers many, many times. I had the very same reaction and questions when I had it done to me.
He did not say it happend to HIM (Animl) in any other plane. He specifically stated it was in a "109". I am describing the move "a 109 does" because that is the specific plane he said "did it mulitple times" to him. When it happens in a more oblique angle one can see the plane turn and one sais to himself "he is stall turning" Oh sht. It's obvious in this case.
If the same move is done a lot more vertilce and at a distance of over 400 the plane can appear to magically swap ends. If you have a laggy or slower graphics problem then you might miss some frames and it "appears" as though its an "exploit" of some kind. If any film exists of this UFO experience then the film will show the actual maneuver in progress even if it appeared to the viewer as something else because the DATA is being recorded and not the rendered frames at the time of play.
To be honest, what Agent described sounds like a death wish
LOLOLOL :lol :lol :lol ----it's just a simple hammerhead...doh... : :rolleyes: but modified to shoot a moving target instead of a "scripted judged move"
I tried to "describe" how to do the move in a documentary fashion. You fly the 109 all the time...corret? You do it all the time. You have done it to me in our many many duals. How can you say its a death wish. I guess you don't relize you are doing when you do it.
I am making a film about this. Turns out it is a lot harder to show in a teaching way than to actually do it against a real fight in the MA or DA. To perform it as an "aerobatical move" by calling out the flight controls and performing it perfectly is a lot harder than I thought.
The "sledgehammer" as I am going to call it...can be done in most planes. It is just a matter how much stall control you can fly with in that plane and most importantly how much tork you get out of your engine.
If anyone has any film of this kind of thing happening to them especially if you got killed by it PLEASE send me the film so I can include it in my upcoming write up about this topic. Send to "troyward@cox.net"
Agent360
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Agent, if you need a sparring partner to stage that move in actual combat, feel free to enlist me. :)
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Tork = Torque
:P
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Agent, I did not mean it in a bad way. What you describe has nothing to do with what I am describing simply because it is something I have seen and not you. I can tell the difference between a hammer head and what I described. When I see a hammer head, I see a hammer head. When I see someone coming head on while I thought he was going the other way, well, I did not see a hammer head. I still think its a visual thing and not a magic move. If you say I have done it, I have no way of knowing what it looked like on your end, but most likely I snap rolled/stalled at the top and torque turned me around. The question is, did you see me flipping around or not. I am talking about not seeing the move and not how the move is performed. That is why what you described has nothing to do with what I am talking about. Its a question of seeing a move and not how it was done (to me at list). ;)
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Good to see ya back around, Animl!
Agent360 had some great detailed posts, dedalos and Shane on the 2nd page of this thread summed it up pretty good.......
Animl, find the films, if you want to have any credibility around here, since most think you are some new beginner.....
and anytime ya see me online, Animl, give me a shout and I'll go to the DA or TA with ya to help you knock all that rust off......
fellow AH'ers Animl is a Good Fella....he been in flight sims a lot longer than most and probably before 1/2 these players today were born ( joking )...he just been out of play for a good long while...... give him some time to adjust......
( don't forget...... post the films :D )
( you would classify Animl,to the likes of Spatula, Dok, Brooke, Fencer, Murdr, Hammer, Widewing, Badboy, Rolex...etc...... in how he carried himself and how much effort he put into helping the fellow flight sim community....... I think some misdjudged his opening post, and to add he may have exagerated a lil much about certian other game players ......it all plays :aok )
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Yeah, it happens sometimes at certain distances (over 500-600yds), if reversal is done tightly and quickly. Could be position update frequency coupled with frame sync.
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Yeah, it happens sometimes at certain distances (over 500-600yds), if reversal is done tightly and quickly. Could be position update frequency coupled with frame sync.
barby pm heading your way.
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Yeah, it happens sometimes at certain distances (over 500-600yds), if reversal is done tightly and quickly. Could be position update frequency coupled with frame sync.
Dedalos - This is what I was saying as well in my last post. And like you I have seen the very same thing Just as you describe. But I believe what animl was seeing is the classic 109 vert reversal. At d600 or even d400 if you take ur eyes off the plane even for a blink or it passes through your canopy frame or you loose the up look for a second the next time you see the target its coming at you.
For me it took I think at least 6 months of constant playing to even tell that a plane was turing out that far. I just couldnt tell if the plane was rolling, turning or diving. I good example of this is going vert with a plane in front of me at d600 or d800 and they split S at the top. I couldnt tell the plane had rolled over and pulled down. It looked like he just dived again to me. Then all the sudden the nose is coming around right at me. It took some time to get used to looking at a little bitty image of a plane and telling what it was doing. Now I just kinda know based on speed and the initial move that brought us up.
I am sure animl did see a plane just UFO reverse. I just think it is either because he lost sight for a fraction of a sec or he is just not picking up on the stall turn until its too late and the nose is already coming his way. OR the plane still did the reverse but he didnt see all the frames either from packet loss, lag or slow graphics card.
Its just interesting he singled out a 109 and not any other planes. And the fact that it was happening over and over. If he had lag problems or other issues then he would have seen a lot more wierd UFO stuff like getting a warp to his six.
I sure wish animl would post the film or contact me so I can do it for him.
Animl go to this on your computer:
program files/HTC/Aces High II/films
Sort all the films by date. Take all the ones dated the day or day before your post and save them to another folder somewhere. If you can make them into a zip file that would be great. If not attach them all to an email and send it too me. Of if there are alot of them just send like 5 or so per email. Send to "troyward@cox.net". IF we have the films we can have a respectable converstation about them and perhaps we will all learn something.
PLEASE send me the films.
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I think he knows that hes wrong on this one, and he has given up on this post. I havn't seen a post in more that 24 hours from him so..... guess we will never see the films.
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I think he knows that hes wrong on this one, and he has given up on this post. I havn't seen a post in more that 24 hours from him so..... guess we will never see the films.
Bosco123, sometimes you think entirely wrong. You might want to read Ghosth's post about "experience"
Ghosth's post Re: Fitting in?
« Reply #13 on: May 26, 2008, 09:36:17 AM »
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,237187.0.html
it has nothing to do about if someone is right or wrong.............. and you should know assuming/assumptions are the mother of all "F-UPs"
He is thinking there might be a quirk in the "coad" possibly. If he is wrong in his thinking , he is classy enough to say he is......
to add: I think, the reason Agent360 is so polite & patient with Animl , is for the simple fact he knows who Animl is from past years and this is why he is offering to help Animl figure it out.......
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( you would classify Animl,to the likes of . . . . . . . .Badboy, ...etc...... in how he carried himself and . . . . . . . .
I am lost TC. Are you saying he is or used to use HT paid accounts to hide behind a trainers badge while using shades to vulch in the DA and harass other players for his enjoyment? :O
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Lol, this guy would **** himself if he saw that film where nath does a 180 in a split second and taters a zeke in the face.
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cobra ftw!
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Ok I have some films to show now.
The two AH2 films show the move stalling to the right and to the left.
There is a wmv file that shows what it looks like from the six of the 109. At the end when the nose is pointed down for a while u will see the 109 like fly off flat but is the viewer adjusting because the plane is flying strait at the viewer. The viewer goes into a loop or something but the plane is flying strait down. If you look at the AH2 films you can see it better.
When viewing the AH films the best way to see is to view in "fixed" and get behind the 109 as it goes up pull the right slider down and stay in the six of the 109 like you were pulling up after him. This way you can see how the 109 just flips around and comes strait down.
If you watch from a slight angle off from strait six you can get to where the 109 does the flip over onto the same vector. When viewing it from this perspective you see only one line....plane up then plane down. You dont see the angle of the flip because your looking at it sideways...like holding a piece of wire bent to a u shape. If you turn the wire sideways you only see one piece of wire.
So if your coming up at the right angle all you will see is the planes six and the stall at the top is masked and the next thing you see is the nose pointed strait at you.
Stalling it to the right or left depends on what oblique side the con is coming up from. If you initiate the move from a left and turn then you would stall left for example. When you start from a left turn and go up the con will pull up at an angle inside you therefor putting up at a slight left vert turn. So you stall left and as he is coming up he is actually starting to overshoot. Here when the nose is pointing down you get a front quarter or better shot before he goes by.
http://northwestflorida.com/aceshigh/sledge/film26_left.ahf (http://northwestflorida.com/aceshigh/sledge/film26_left.ahf)
http://northwestflorida.com/aceshigh/sledge/film27_right.ahf (http://northwestflorida.com/aceshigh/sledge/film27_right.ahf)
Video
http://northwestflorida.com/aceshigh/sledge/sledge_con_vis.wmv (http://northwestflorida.com/aceshigh/sledge/sledge_con_vis.wmv)
Agent360
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Lol, this guy would **** himself if he saw that film where nath does a 180 in a split second and taters a zeke in the face.
No kidding.. One of the possible reasons that no film is posted yet, is that the night he refers to I was flying almost nothing but 152s, which if he had a clue he'd know does no useful unpredictable spins like he describes. The only spins the 152 does that's unpredictably fast lasts 1-2 seconds at most, during which you're most likely in black or red out. The other spins are slow and the pilot has 5% chance of landing a shot, 95% chance of being relatively sitting still in a downward tail-centered spin.
You can do a sort of slanted Cobra, but it's pretty hard to hold and time, and you're not flipping around, just hanging there while (with a lot of luck) the other guy overshoots and gets a tater if you manage to recover just right.
Other planes can do very fast reversals, which again if this guy really had a clue, are known all the way back to hblair's nearly instant vertical reverses in the G10... Nath did it in a bunch of planes, Agent does it in the K4.. There's no chance the films he's got show anything special in the 152. The most extraordinary thing they'll have is some net lag on his end. Or him running from fights and generaly dogfighting at a soporiphic rythm.. just a hunch based on the few seconds I noticed and recognized his pony that night.
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Animl, I was the 109 your talking about and got you on film, anyhow you were roped, and it wasn't 3 times as you mentioned it was
one time, basically your spitfire tried to climb to up me (in a 109g6) and i went straight up, you tried to follow which i dropped one notch
flaps and was nose down on you when you went to stall out and well lets just say no parts were left.
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Anyhow I didn't want to post on this since it was really stupid to begin with, plus the threats of "I was cheating and I should be banned" comment, either send your so called film to skuzzy or end it thanks.
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He actualy said that, "cheating and should be banned"?..
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Well when I first read this post I wanted to comment right away, I looked at his score card and realized he's either a shade
trying to get me banned for running my mouth or complete new guy I stayed away from it. I pulled same move I do in a corsair,
I dove down gaining speed to around 400+ and pulled straight up, him and a La7 climbed with me and I got him, Kazaa got
the La7. It wasn't anything special like an "f16" could pull, when I hit about 200 mph I dropped one notch flaps and winged over.
My nose was down on him and he was spraying tryin for a "ho" shot that he already stalled out from.
P.S I edited this post only because i wanted to say more about the "F16" move, but suggest reading the training forums about agent360,
because after reviewing his films you got nailed by the same move, except for me it worked on first try, everytime else NONE. sorry Agent <S>
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wanna bet? I bet we go to the DA and it will bother you how bad I slap you around that arena. :aok
<wild giggle>
1) Chances are it won't bother me since you've been here longer and probably log more hours then me,..and I'm just smart enough to realize that, barely, maybe, it could happen. I've been flying by mouse until 3 weeks ago, I'm now one notch above handing it to you on a silver plater.
2) I wouldn't exactly under estimate me right off the bat. I never claim to be the superior brilliant complete pilot you are,..But, while I'm newish to AH and the FE and learning the interface, don't confuse that with me suddenly going brain dead and forgetting 14 years of ACM. I have a feeling you're gonna work for that kill. But then you wouldn't be my first BBQ either. ;)
For all you're flamboyant ego bursting look-at-me high-heel boasting; (Pretty much every time we cross paths, frankly because you're an idiot) If I beat you, I guarantee you, I will never ever let you live it down, even if it's the only time ever. Because it would just be that entertaining, that often.
Me, I expect to lose, I have a feeling you hope I do too. ;)
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Prozac.
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Good to see ya back around, Animl!
Agent360 had some great detailed posts, dedalos and Shane on the 2nd page of this thread summed it up pretty good.......
Animl, find the films, if you want to have any credibility around here, since most think you are some new beginner.....
and anytime ya see me online, Animl, give me a shout and I'll go to the DA or TA with ya to help you knock all that rust off......
fellow AH'ers Animl is a Good Fella....he been in flight sims a lot longer than most and probably before 1/2 these players today were born ( joking )...he just been out of play for a good long while...... give him some time to adjust......
( don't forget...... post the films :D )
( you would classify Animl,to the likes of Spatula, Dok, Brooke, Fencer, Murdr, Hammer, Widewing, Badboy, Rolex...etc...... in how he carried himself and how much effort he put into helping the fellow flight sim community....... I think some misdjudged his opening post, and to add he may have exagerated a lil much about certian other game players ......it all plays :aok )
TY Sir. <S>
TY for the compliments as well.
>GREAT!< to be back.
This will get cleared up. I have a few post to read, preferably Agent's
But I am going to use this reply to cover a few things. There is no way I will respond to dweebery.
I don't know if getting discoed while recording from sortie to sortie has anything to do with it, but basically 2 days of films seem to be MIA. Call me what you must, only the dweebs and seals would do it anyway. I have no hidden reason to ask about these things.
Which quite frankly the films seem irrelevant at this point as Agent (and others) knows EXACTLY what I am talking about without them. When some *demand* a film to prove what I see exist, even though it's *somewhat* common knowledge to some to exist, (or someone wouldn't be able to explain it like Agent), better yet, 90% of the people asking for the film use the maneuver on a regular basis.
I didn't realize you had to have a film to talk about anything and everything in here. If I were talking to HT or Pyro about it, it would never be without a film. If I thought it were that important or a KNEW for fact something was funky I would NOT have posted here, it would have been a nice silent email fired off with quiet films and names attached directly to HT, Pyro and Skuzzy. Why would I ask robbers if they robbed a bank?
Some, (Moot, Scotch, SkyRock and a few others) in here are trying to take two different situations and mix them into one for the masses, show and attension.
A dogfight and a post. They think I'm posting this because of who won a dogfight. Which is pure ego gone mad dog crazy. I think they are int e habit of harrassing people who give a .... The only thing it has to do with the Muppets is because they are best known to use the moves, yet stand here acting stupid about it. Even if there were no errors in the game, they don't want you to know how to use it on them. <wild giggle> Sad part is SkyRock wasn't even involved in any way. <G> He likes placing himself in the spotlight. <shrug>
*SkyRock*, (and Moot and Scotch) is a PRO at both moves, why doesn't he chime in with anything but fruitless threats to "own" me? I find that a little ironic. Why he (they) doesn't comment on his favorite moves. You know how they respond when it's brought up to them, "where's the film". Ironic they need a film of themselves from someone else to know what they do all the time. They will talk about anything BUT. Denying it exist openly when you actually use it,.. maybe there's something there>?:)
>>>SO that leaves us with, *exactly as you stated*. Is there something in the game itself that does not allow the chaser to see the flip in real time? If not my answer to my question is no.
I understand the flat snap stall (placing chaser as target), what I don't understand is how fast it restores E to do it yet again in the game, within a certain time frame. Is there a flaw in drag and\or stick response?
In the Rope,..If you have enough E and SEE the flip you still have the option to move out of his way. If you don't see it, you will *unknowingly* pose for the HO. Now IF said pile-it knows the chaser won't see him flip in real time, then I would call that a soft bug exploitation to the pile-it's advantage and score, and unduly detrimental to mine.
That said; I'm going to split hairs here...
While it may show up in film that is NO guarantee it will show up in *Real Time*. And I *am* speaking Real Time. A film can *easily* capture what you don't see, *especially* if it has to do with Lag or FPS (unless HT steps in and says I am wrong that's what I believe). I have NO issues with FPS, they scream,... Would I bet on losing a the same packets at the same point of of a specific move over and over? NO< not placing that bet.
I don't care if he can actually do it or not, I care if I can see it happen real time so it's MY decision to move or die, not his.
Now I will view Agents info and films since he's one of the few who responded intelligently.
If I am wrong I am wrong, (not sure how wrong is defined here), but I'm not going to be afraid to ask questions on the BB and be afraid of the attacking seals. <shrug>
Thanks again for the welcome.
<S>
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Now I will view Agents info and films since he's one of the few who responded intelligently.
Thanks again for the welcome.
<S>
Well put. On the other hand, far be it from me to ever offer up an ACM question here. Lesson learned.
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Animl. The internet is packed with cheat sites for games. There are literally hundreds of them. And references to Aces High appear on most of them. So the "existence" of cheat codes is not in question. Everything is available, from adding armor to your plane, trick maneuvers and no radar needed.. all planes visible.. how bout some extra guns on your plane ? It's all there in black and white.
The amazing thing is, some players submit these codes using their game i.d's from Aces High. That's right. I kid you not. Afterall, they want the credit for cheating. On one site an advertisement for Aces High by Hitech appears just below a cheat code submitted and signed by ABBY. Amazing, huh ?
So don't waste your time filming cheats and complaining to Hitech about it. They know already. Nobody is going to be banned from play. About all you can do is refuse to play with cheats. If you see it happen, leave the arena and move to another one.
Whatever you do, stick to your principles. Don't go download these cheat codes and use them to get even.
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Prozac.
You might want to find a bathroom mirror.
If I succeeded at nothing else, at least yours and Scotchs and SkyRocks perpetual Ch 200 nut bag rants pulled back a little.
If this post has that effect, I'm good with that. The whining really makes EVERYONE ill.
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Animl. The internet is packed with cheat sites for games. There are literally hundreds of them. And references to Aces High appear on most of them. So the "existence" of cheat codes is not in question. Everything is available, from adding armor to your plane, trick maneuvers and no radar needed.. all planes visible.. how bout some extra guns on your plane ? It's all there in black and white.
The amazing thing is, some players submit these codes using their game i.d's from Aces High. That's right. I kid you not. Afterall, they want the credit for cheating. On one site an advertisement for Aces High by Hitech appears just below a cheat code submitted and signed by ABBY. Amazing, huh ?
So don't waste your time filming cheats and complaining to Hitech about it. They know already. Nobody is going to be banned from play. About all you can do is refuse to play with cheats. If you see it happen, leave the arena and move to another one.
Whatever you do, stick to your principles. Don't go download these cheat codes and use them to get even.
I am going to reply to this stuff one last time, I never said anyone was cheating. Period.
Thanks for the reply, but it's way off. sorry.
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Animl the reason i and many others want to see the film is because your first post wasn't particularly descriptive of what happened. In addition you said it and still do call it an exploit, which is quite the accusation.
I believe most people here thought, as did agent 360, that you were witnessing a hammerhead, not an exploit. However without film it isn't 100% certain. There may very well be a difference between what really happened and what you percieved at the time, which is why i didn't comment. A film would have clarified many things.
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Anyhow I didn't want to post on this since it was really stupid to begin with, plus the threats of "I was cheating and I should be banned" comment, either send your so called film to skuzzy or end it thanks.
Yes it was you, I was refrring to 3 times or more since i started playing not one night.
But you do piss me off in try to state I said ANYTHING about you cheating, I got into with Scotch about how he pulled off a flat snap stall that fast with no struture damage.
If you are going to come in here and insist I said anything about you cheating I will stand here in full confidence and frankly call you a liar. You want a film I want a text buffer.
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Animl the reason i and many others want to see the film is because your first post wasn't particularly descriptive of what happened. In addition you said it and still do call it an exploit, which is quite the accusation.
I believe most people here thought, as did agent 360, that you were witnessing a hammerhead, not an exploit. However without film it isn't 100% certain. There may very well be a difference between what really happened and what you percieved at the time, which is why i didn't comment. A film would have clarified many things.
I think Agent is on the right path. :)
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No kidding.. One of the possible reasons that no film is posted yet, is that the night he refers to I was flying almost nothing but 152s, which if he had a clue he'd know does no useful unpredictable spins like he describes. The only spins the 152 does that's unpredictably fast lasts 1-2 seconds at most, during which you're most likely in black or red out. The other spins are slow and the pilot has 5% chance of landing a shot, 95% chance of being relatively sitting still in a downward tail-centered spin.
You can do a sort of slanted Cobra, but it's pretty hard to hold and time, and you're not flipping around, just hanging there while (with a lot of luck) the other guy overshoots and gets a tater if you manage to recover just right.
Other planes can do very fast reversals, which again if this guy really had a clue, are known all the way back to hblair's nearly instant vertical reverses in the G10... Nath did it in a bunch of planes, Agent does it in the K4.. There's no chance the films he's got show anything special in the 152. The most extraordinary thing they'll have is some net lag on his end. Or him running from fights and generaly dogfighting at a soporiphic rythm.. just a hunch based on the few seconds I noticed and recognized his pony that night.
Ironically Moot, you killed me in a spit or a 109. 152s were no where near the scene. If I ever find the films, you wil not see ANY 152 in them anywhere. You must be talking about another time someonwhere else that's irrelivent to what you are saying here.
I shot Hblair down many times in AH1, and him me. In fact there was a long rival between he and I. Ask him. He's a good guy, but we were strong rivals. I KNOW his capabilities very well. I know his style the second I see it.
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Animl, I was the 109 your talking about and got you on film, anyhow you were roped, and it wasn't 3 times as you mentioned it was
one time, basically your spitfire tried to climb to up me (in a 109g6) and i went straight up, you tried to follow which i dropped one notch
flaps and was nose down on you when you went to stall out and well lets just say no parts were left.
Umm, BTW I just caught something,...you will NEVER see me fly a spitfire, now that I see your name yes it was you on ONE occasion, you're ot the only one that killed me that night,..it was just th elast time it happened before i said anythign about it after Scotch. But I was in a spit and almost always am in a P-51D or 190-a5. You will NEVER see me fly a spit, ever. The first and last time I flew a spit in this game was my first day in AH2. Not once since then.
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i've played for 4 months as a bomber peelot which qualifies me to
post nonsense daily.
There, fixed.
<S>
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So don't waste your time filming cheats and complaining to Hitech about it. They know already. Nobody is going to be banned from play. About all you can do is refuse to play with cheats. If you see it happen, leave the arena and move to another one.
Completely wrong....
Film anything deemed to be an obvious cheat. IE: unlimited bombs, super high speeds, unlimited rockets, unlimited troops, etc. Send the film to HTC at support@hitechcreations.com.
People found to have modified the game code are immediately banned. It is clearly expressed in the Terms of Service that the code may not be modified or otherwise hacked.
Furthermore, it is also HTC policy not to permit discussions of cheating on the BBS. So, don't do it, unless you want to be bounced from the boards. All discussions about alleged cheating should be confined to correspondence between you and HTC, not posted to the BBS. See Rule 8: "Cheating allegations or descriptions are not allowed. Email support@hitechcreations.com to report any issues regarding this. HTC permanently bans anyone caught cheating in Aces High. We take cheating and allegations of cheating very seriously."
My regards,
Widewing
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Now IF said pile-it knows the chaser won't see him flip in real time, then I would call that a soft bug exploitation to the pile-it's advantage and score, and unduly detrimental to mine.
I wouldn't go that far and call it and 'exploit', Animl, since in 99.9% of the cases you can clearly see the reversal, if you pay attention, that is.
Muppets and other 109 fans like Agent, use those rides to their strengths, which is in vertical, and top reversals are part of it. This is not specific to 109s, some other planes are also good at it, so prepare yourself for more.
Instead of arguing, you can learn those maneuvers. Once you know how, you can use it to your advantage and also recognize beforehand, when some of the better sticks is trying to pull that one on you.
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(http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m238/Goldelks/jesus_lock.gif)
Stupid shade trolls :furious :mad: :furious
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Wow, long time no see Animal. I was wondering if this was you and it is.
<<S>>
Formally "Karaya2"
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I emailed Skuzzy about the cheat sites once and his reply was that these sites hack the people that download them and that if a cheat does happen it is pinged in the server and they take care of it.How? I don't know but i believe the man.Stephen Waldren, you've proved in thread after thread you are a complete imbecile and know nothing what so ever about anything.As for animl, if you think something is fishy email HTC and tell them about it.The BBS is not the place for this. Personally I don't think adonai cheats. Maybe on sheep but he's usually in a jeep when he's looking to score a date. :rofl
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So ole steve his been goggling AH2 hacks enough to know that the "internet is just packed with them" :lol....interesting :noid
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Personally I don't think adonai cheats. Maybe on sheep but he's usually in a jeep when he's looking to score a date. :rofl
Don't hate the player hate the game, just cuz you can't get a date sir! Sheep love me, ask oGERWINo always
complains on 200 cause i steal his sheep :devil
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Completely wrong on both accounts WideWing. Abby will NOT be banned. I guarantee that isn't going to happen. And Hitech DOES NOT prohibit DISCUSSIONS about CHEATING in the forum. What they prohibit is telling other players HOW to cheat. A little bit different from what you describe. I gave no one a Cheat Code. And it's common enough knowledge there are hundreds of cheat code sites for games on the internet. So i'm not telling anyone How to Cheat. I'm not telling anyone anything they don't already know either.
So complain about my post to Hitech if you want to. They're just gonna tell you to SHUT UP too.
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:rofl
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8- Cheating allegations or descriptions are not allowed. Email support@hitechcreations.com to report any issues regarding this. HTC permanently bans anyone caught cheating in Aces High. We take cheating and allegations of cheating very seriously.
You may want to refresh your understanding of the forum rules. You may also want to keep a packed suitcase handy.
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Don't hate the player hate the game, just cuz you can't get a date sir! Sheep love me, ask oGERWINo always
complains on 200 cause i steal his sheep :devil
if i see your jeep in my pasture i'll shoot! :furious
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The dictionary defines an "allegation" as a "specific assertion unsupported by fact". Webster's Collegiate Dictionary page 29. Now exactly who did i charge with Cheating in the game. When did the infraction occur ? And how was it described ?
You are the one making an unsupported allegation. Not me. So complain if you want.
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WTF is abby?
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P.S. Wingnut. Before you make threats about suitcases and packing them. You should read the definition of the words used in a RULE so that you understand them.
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never heard of him but i guess stephen waldren sees him all the time.
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The dictionary defines an "allegation" as a "specific assertion unsupported by fact". Webster's Collegiate Dictionary page 29. Now exactly who did i charge with Cheating in the game. When did the infraction occur ? And how was it described ?
You are the one making an unsupported allegation. Not me. So complain if you want.
You want to mince words and definition, have at it. Discussion of cheats and alleged cheaters in this forum will not go well for you. Just sayen.
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I smell a PNG coming on..........
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You want to mince words and definition, have at it. Discussion of cheats and alleged cheaters in this forum will not go well for you. Just sayen.
Max, you know the old "give em enough rope" analogy don't ya?
:D
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I smell a PNG coming on..........
Yup and the shade meltdown thereafter will be most entertaining. :aok
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Max, you know the old "give em enough rope" analogy don't ya?
:D
Give? Heck, this guy's knitting his own noose :rofl
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If u can't see a PNG headed your way, you're in for a surprise, stephen.
And who is abby? I'm genuinely intrigued now.
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So this thread was nothing but a poor excuse to "whine about whiners" and call others' casual smack and regular talk "nut bag rants".. in a drawn out substance-less nutbag rant thread. There's something called .squelch.. Give it a try.
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Completely wrong on both accounts WideWing. Abby will NOT be banned. I guarantee that isn't going to happen. And Hitech DOES NOT prohibit DISCUSSIONS about CHEATING in the forum. What they prohibit is telling other players HOW to cheat. A little bit different from what you describe. I gave no one a Cheat Code. And it's common enough knowledge there are hundreds of cheat code sites for games on the internet. So i'm not telling anyone How to Cheat. I'm not telling anyone anything they don't already know either.
So complain about my post to Hitech if you want to. They're just gonna tell you to SHUT UP too.
I So smell a PNG coming on and im over 400 miles from Texas, Where's skuzzy when ya need him? :furious
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is there a video or not ?
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is there a video or not ?
I might have it somewhere, I've got 147 films and I dont feel like viewing each one right now looking for one specifically.
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First, the Animl in this post is NOT Animal of the Fat Drunk Bastards.
Secondly, a single post with film at the beginning of this post would have been FAR more educational and probably eliminated over 90% of this thread.
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Obviously not his intent :lol
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This is a very intersting read.
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First, the Animl in this post is NOT Animal of the Fat Drunk Bastards.
And here I was thinking it was time to rechristen you the Fat Whiny squeakes. Thanks for clearing that up.
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Umm, BTW I just caught something,...you will NEVER see me fly a spitfire, now that I see your name yes it was you on ONE occasion, you're ot the only one that killed me that night,..it was just th elast time it happened before i said anythign about it after Scotch. But I was in a spit and almost always am in a P-51D or 190-a5. You will NEVER see me fly a spit, ever. The first and last time I flew a spit in this game was my first day in AH2. Not once since then.
Silly enough to reply to my own post,... something went wrong there, lol, point being, wasn't in a spit, wil never be in a spit.
Glad i cleared that up, was feeling a need for a skin scolding shower.
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Silly enough to reply to my own post,... something went wrong there, lol, point being, wasn't in a spit, wil never be in a spit.
Glad i cleared that up, was feeling a need for a skin scolding shower.
spit or 51 either one I couldn't remember off top of my head
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I'm 48, been flying sims since 94, and was a Tech and Game assitant, ran scenarios, reinvented a damage model (among many other things) for Air Warrior.
Now what?
Interesting, you must have had some other handle then, the only Animal-like handle I can find is "Animalmother". I looked through the credits in the manuals of SVGA Air Warrior, Air Warrior II and Air Warrior III :)
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Completely wrong on both accounts WideWing. Abby will NOT be banned. I guarantee that isn't going to happen. And Hitech DOES NOT prohibit DISCUSSIONS about CHEATING in the forum. What they prohibit is telling other players HOW to cheat. A little bit different from what you describe. I gave no one a Cheat Code. And it's common enough knowledge there are hundreds of cheat code sites for games on the internet. So i'm not telling anyone How to Cheat. I'm not telling anyone anything they don't already know either.
So complain about my post to Hitech if you want to. They're just gonna tell you to SHUT UP too.
I can fix many things, but stupid isn't one of them. You MAY NOT discuss cheating or any topic related to cheating... Skuzzy has repeatedly warned posters about discussions pertaining to cheating. You can do whatever you want, but be advised that you will incur the wrath of the Skuzmeister.
The rules of the forums are posted at the top of each forum, you need only read them. Rule 8 is very specific. It says: "8- Cheating allegations or descriptions are not allowed. Email support@hitechcreations.com to report any issues regarding this. HTC permanently bans anyone caught cheating in Aces High. We take cheating and allegations of cheating very seriously."
Have a nice day...
My regards,
Widewing
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hmm...might want to look more closely. just sayin. (i suspected it was some such silliness, google it yourself to see what I mean)
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First, the Animl in this post is NOT Animal of the Fat Drunk Bastards.
Secondly, a single post with film at the beginning of this post would have been FAR more educational and probably eliminated over 90% of this thread.
Agree on your second reply, Drunky
and as for Animal of the FDB "Animal" and Animl from AirWarrior
if I am not mistaken here is a link to Animl's Help site, although it has been awhile since it has been updated:
http://www.icongrp.com/~stagemon/ah/ ( he used to host a very helpful Air Warrior Tech page, named "Air Warrior Tech Hangar" )
Lew ( Silat ), Otto, Animl and others were on the Tech Team ffrom AW thru AWMV
my reference to his helping the community was from his volunteered offerings of helping others setting up and diagnosing problems with Game Play, as well as assisting and being a GA, and helping as he mentioned with upgrading the damage models when AW2/AW3 did away with the "Hit Bubble" in FR arenas mainly and testing the new damage model and correcting number of hits from differing types of gun platforms/planes etc..
Why I am posting this stuff, really is no need......... just to show he is not a Troll or shades account
below is from my old Air Warrior personnnel spreadsheets from Admin listing AW personnel info and current privs, handles, ID's etc.... ( DmdRodan was head of Admin for AW Personnnel , back when I was Training Officer/Manager for new Trainers and the Mentor OIC for all new Vol Staff that was invited to go thru training to become AW assistants / Tech Reps / Trainers / etc.......
( I purposely have not included some info categorys )
FIRST NAME J**
LAST NAME C***i*g
Address City State ZIP **** **** ****** Dyer IN 46311 USA
Country Phone # 2**-8**-**35
E-MAIL stagemon@mail.icongrp.com
Work CPID Animl awar_anim
Work Username Animl awar_anim
Play CPID Anim stagemon
Play Username Anim stagemon
AW3ME Work CPID Animl
AW3ME Play CPID stagemon
AIM EAGuruAniml
SN
Date of Birth Age
ICQ
Yahoo Messenger
NDA Signed
EACampus Completed
OH Requested
Staff NG Access 8/7/2000
Aegis Access 7/27/2000
Set Up 10/14/00
Sent to Mentoring N/A Scheduled? N/A
Start Date N/A
NG Access Terminated?
Title/Function Tech Rep
AW3 Mojos Ann bellybutton Pag
AW3ME Mojos Ann bellybutton Pag
Notes
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Thread of the year?
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did anyody look at the fimls i posted on page 9 of this thread?
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So don't waste your time filming cheats and complaining to Hitech about it. They know already. Nobody is going to be banned from play. About all you can do is refuse to play with cheats. If you see it happen, leave the arena and move to another one.
Whatever you do, stick to your principles. Don't go download these cheat codes and use them to get even.
I'd beg to differ on this one. Strongly, in no uncertain terms.
I'm personally aware of 2 players who were permabanned from the game for hacks. In one instance I know for a fact that the problem was directly investigated by HT, to the point of calling the player in question at home and trying to sort out what might be going on. Once the film in question was submitted, the player disappeared...and his particular hack has not been seen again.
Lately we've occasionally seen infinite ammo, or mile long strings of bombs. The players doing this unceremoniously disappear, and it wouldn't surprise me to find out that HTC has left the hole open because he's got alarm software in place...and plugging the hole might just lead to a progressive arms race from those who get jollies from breaking code.
What DOESN'T get attention is the endless string of "che@#$" complaints from people who have no idea at all about the relationship between the software, the game server, the internet, and the speed of light. When those complaints come in, I can guarantee they will be ignored for the worthless drivel they are. The issues have been addressed innumerable times on these boards.
But do not make the mistake of thinking HT and Co. are blind to code breakers. They have zero tolerance for the simple reason that this game is their livelihood, and they know it. HTC is not a monolithic bureacracy run by suits, its a single product botique programming company with all their eggs in one basket. If you think they will take any of this stuff lightly, well -- frankly, you are cerebrally challenged.
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waldon: I sugest you read rule #8 a few more times.
In fact I take this topic so seriously, I am one inch away from banning you for AH and the bbs just for claiming we do not take it seriously.
This thread is cook.
HiTech