What's with the uber maneuvers?

[NOT]

Until then just call me a liar to keep it covered.

humble pie is in the oven; you want it with vanilla ice cream or without??




NOT

[moot]

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[Brocster]

Years ago - different alias, different name, whatever----

I asked this same question.  I felt what I was "seeing" was impossible. Basically, the explanation was pretty straightforward, I even think Pyro answered it (fuzzy memory here).

Basically, the answer was: What I was seeing was not representative of the true position of the aircraft in space. Lag, graphics capability, etc, etc... all caused the angle of attack/positioning of the target aircraft to appear slightly off of where it truly was. Another way to put it---when a spit was pulling back through it's lift vector after the merge, it might appear to be pointed straight up when in fact, from the target aircraft's cockpit, it (and it's pilot) are actually continuing a smooth transition back 180 into my aircraft. Visually, the angels were just a bit off. This usually only happens in quick/violent maneuvers. IN fact, just a few minutes ago - I jumped a 47 with a ton of E in my 190.  It looked like the 47 slid on its tail while still travelling straight ahead.  I know this was actually just a violent skid maneuver (nicely done by the way) that just looked like a UFO trick.

Hope this helps a bit.

Broc

[BnZ]

1. If you fly absolutely vertical you can hang there on your prop down to ~50mph*, using a little rudder and aileron to prevent rolling as long as possible. Then the plane will nose over to the left, practically swapping ends. (Sloppy hammerhead). If you are NOT roped, this is not a problematic move. Since you will have shot him, or gone nose low to get maneuvering speed and waited for him to come down.

2. Planes CAN sometimes swap ends without you SEEING it. This does not mean there is cheating, I think it means there are frame rate/lag issues. This is like how planes in online play sometimes seem to snap into banks/snap into turns instantly, otherwise move erratically...I chalk it up to bad frame rate and lag on my end.

*Okay, science guys explain this to me. My plane's clean stall speed is 100mph. How can I have enough air flowing over the surfaces to control my plane's torque AT ALL when my airspeed is more than 50mph below stall?*

[PFactorDave]

*Okay, science guys explain this to me. My plane's clean stall speed is 100mph. How can I have enough air flowing over the surfaces to control my plane's torque AT ALL when my airspeed is more than 50mph below stall?*

I think you are confusing stall speed a bit.  Stall speed is the speed at which airflow over the wing becomes too non-laminar to generate lift.  It doesn't mean that the control surfaces no-longer are deflecting enough air to create pitch/roll/yaw.   In many aircraft, loss of control surface authority occurs when the AoA (angle of attack) is large enough to "blanket the tail surfaces in a sort of "shadow" of the wing (if you think of the airflow as light).  In the situation that we are talking about, your forawrd vector (in this case straight up) in combination with your prop wash, provide enough airflow to counter act the roll rate generated from the engine's torque.

Simplified...  Stall speed is nothing more then the speed at which the wing stops flying (from the tips inward).  The control surfaces can be effective at slower speeds then that.

Imagine sticking a flat hand out of the car window at 25mph.  Your hand isn't a more effeicient wing than what we find on aircraft, but if you change the angle you can feel the effects of air deflection even at speeds much much slower then even the most lift efficient aircraft can fly at.  Really, it's high airspeeds that cause the much wonkier control loss due to compressibility.  But that's something entirely different.

Ask me again tomorrow and I'll try and explain it more better.  Bit late here and I'm tired, and my Aerospace Engineering days are far far behind me.

[Agent360]

Hi Animl,

I think you are getting a bad response on this due to the "uber gaming the game" accusation due to your lack of understanding about this move. But we can soon put all this "suspicion" to rest by simply showing you how it is done.

When I first started playing this majik move you speak of totally confused me. It took a long time for me to understand it. This move can be done in a variety of ways. In fact it can be done in a flat turn horizontally. The move is the same except for the angles involved. When in the verticle the angles are very close. When horizontal they are very obvious and don't look wierd.

First it is very easy to get somewhat disoriented when in the vert. When you are looking forward going verticle there is no reference for you to tell what is up, down or more specifically what is horizontal and what is verticle.

I KNOW exaclty what move you speak of and exactly how to perform it. The move is actually performed at about 20 to 40 mph. There are no super g's involved. IF you have ever seen an aerial aerobatic show you will see planes doing this move all the time. The closest thing to it is what is called the "hammerhead" and more specifically it is actually known as a "slice back" in combat ACM terms.

The move can be done in a real plane. The question is would you actually do this 500 feet from the ground in real life unless you were looking at tracers coming past you and you had no choice. But that is a totally different thread. If you flub it you would stall spin and crash. IF you did it at 10k you would have time to recover.


Ok I will try to explain it in words.

You are on the six of a 109. You are closing to guns perhaps in some oblique turn either horizontal or going verticle. By doing this you are drawing lead to the target. This lead is creating an AOT ( or Angle off Tail ) from the targets perspective. The more AOT created the better the move is.
109 goes immediate verticle by....chopping throttle...holding RIGHT rudder. HIts wep. rolls out flaps
You have a response time delay because you are dictated by what the 109 does. So you pull hard to follow and the MISTAKE....continue to draw lead because it looks like you are going to get a shot.
During your pull up the 109 has hit the breaks by flying "dirty". You have not.
At this point freeze both planes.....the 109 is perfectly verticle at 90 deg and beggining a "torking roll" to the left.
You are still AOT because your halfway through your pull up. So you have somewhere around 30 to 45 deg of angle difference. This means you are going up only at 45 to 80 degress while the 109 is beginng the reversal to down.
You see this and pull even harder for a shot. Your plane then starts to "mush" because you are pulling more AOA ( Angle of Attack) than the plane can do at your current speed and angle up. At this point you are SLOWING very fast and loosing maneuver ability.
Un freez our planes.
The 109 is now stalling and now goes full left rudder, pushes nose down, stalls the down wing and performs a "flik roll" in the verticle (A flik roll is a type of snap roll that all ww2 pilots used...you can look that up) This is done by pulling hard to back left. All flaps are out by now and the plane is moving at about 30 or so mph.
The throttle is now"pulled" off NOT chopped. It is then slamed on with wep. This allows the nose to be "torked" around by using only the engine tork. Since there is nearly no airsped and therefor no air over the wings the only thing that makes the nose snap around is the tork of the engine and the low wing stall at the same time.
The 109 nose is now quickly rotating around and pointing right at you for a shot.
Your plane is NOT verticle and gives the 109 a nice platform or nice front quarter shot at a distance of about 200 or even 100 and sometime point blank. You go BOOM.

The real trick for the 109 is to mask the slowing of the plane or to mask the "brakes". If done right it looks like the 109 is moving fast but in fact he is not but YOU ARE. Proper seperation of the two planes is criticle. If you close to the 109 on his reverse you just overshoot up and he will dive to get away. If done right you will be in guns.

109's have tremendous tork and can use this great effect in controlling the plane at stall.

This move can be done even with you inside 400 and going for guns at 150 mph after a turn chase and you will still get shot. Or it can be done at high speed by using more seperation and manipulating the angles.

The counter:
If you are NOT getting hits and pulling lead when a 109 goes strait verticle and you are NOT gaining then you are primed for this move. In this case as the 109 goes vert you push nose down and make a nose down flat turn to the OPPOSITE direction from your origianal turn. Most of the time the 109 will stall over to his left BUT it can be done to the right as well. But it doesn't matter. If the 109 is going vert he must take time to nose down or make the reverse. During this time you are seperating by nosing down (not diving) and turning to the right. Gain some energy and make a turn back to the 109 as he comesout of the vert to nose down. You are now set for a new merge.

Agent360

[Rosscoe1]

Fly the 262 and you'll soon find out. I see spitfires do it occasionally also.

I ripped wings off a hog doing 600.... but i was just testing out a theory in the DA to see if it was possible... i just pulled back as far as i could blacked out and heard a shearing sound

[sunfan1121]

Hi Animl,

I think you are getting a bad response on this due to the "uber gaming the game" accusation due to your lack of understanding about this move. But we can soon put all this "suspicion" to rest by simply showing you how it is done.

When I first started playing this majik move you speak of totally confused me. It took a long time for me to understand it. This move can be done in a variety of ways. In fact it can be done in a flat turn horizontally. The move is the same except for the angles involved. When in the verticle the angles are very close. When horizontal they are very obvious and don't look wierd.

First it is very easy to get somewhat disoriented when in the vert. When you are looking forward going verticle there is no reference for you to tell what is up, down or more specifically what is horizontal and what is verticle.

I KNOW exaclty what move you speak of and exactly how to perform it. The move is actually performed at about 20 to 40 mph. There are no super g's involved. IF you have ever seen an aerial aerobatic show you will see planes doing this move all the time. The closest thing to it is what is called the "hammerhead" and more specifically it is actually known as a "slice back" in combat ACM terms.

The move can be done in a real plane. The question is would you actually do this 500 feet from the ground in real life unless you were looking at tracers coming past you and you had no choice. But that is a totally different thread. If you flub it you would stall spin and crash. IF you did it at 10k you would have time to recover.


Ok I will try to explain it in words.

You are on the six of a 109. You are closing to guns perhaps in some oblique turn either horizontal or going verticle. By doing this you are drawing lead to the target. This lead is creating an AOT ( or Angle off Tail ) from the targets perspective. The more AOT created the better the move is.
109 goes immediate verticle by....chopping throttle...holding RIGHT rudder. HIts wep. rolls out flaps
You have a response time delay because you are dictated by what the 109 does. So you pull hard to follow and the MISTAKE....continue to draw lead because it looks like you are going to get a shot.
During your pull up the 109 has hit the breaks by flying "dirty". You have not.
At this point freeze both planes.....the 109 is perfectly verticle at 90 deg and beggining a "torking roll" to the left.
You are still AOT because your halfway through your pull up. So you have somewhere around 30 to 45 deg of angle difference. This means you are going up only at 45 to 80 degress while the 109 is beginng the reversal to down.
You see this and pull even harder for a shot. Your plane then starts to "mush" because you are pulling more AOA ( Angle of Attack) than the plane can do at your current speed and angle up. At this point you are SLOWING very fast and loosing maneuver ability.
Un freez our planes.
The 109 is now stalling and now goes full left rudder, pushes nose down, stalls the down wing and performs a "flik roll" in the verticle (A flik roll is a type of snap roll that all ww2 pilots used...you can look that up) This is done by pulling hard to back left. All flaps are out by now and the plane is moving at about 30 or so mph.
The throttle is now"pulled" off NOT chopped. It is then slamed on with wep. This allows the nose to be "torked" around by using only the engine tork. Since there is nearly no airsped and therefor no air over the wings the only thing that makes the nose snap around is the tork of the engine and the low wing stall at the same time.
The 109 nose is now quickly rotating around and pointing right at you for a shot.
Your plane is NOT verticle and gives the 109 a nice platform or nice front quarter shot at a distance of about 200 or even 100 and sometime point blank. You go BOOM.

The real trick for the 109 is to mask the slowing of the plane or to mask the "brakes". If done right it looks like the 109 is moving fast but in fact he is not but YOU ARE. Proper seperation of the two planes is criticle. If you close to the 109 on his reverse you just overshoot up and he will dive to get away. If done right you will be in guns.

109's have tremendous tork and can use this great effect in controlling the plane at stall.

This move can be done even with you inside 400 and going for guns at 150 mph after a turn chase and you will still get shot. Or it can be done at high speed by using more seperation and manipulating the angles.

The counter:
If you are NOT getting hits and pulling lead when a 109 goes strait verticle and you are NOT gaining then you are primed for this move. In this case as the 109 goes vert you push nose down and make a nose down flat turn to the OPPOSITE direction from your origianal turn. Most of the time the 109 will stall over to his left BUT it can be done to the right as well. But it doesn't matter. If the 109 is going vert he must take time to nose down or make the reverse. During this time you are seperating by nosing down (not diving) and turning to the right. Gain some energy and make a turn back to the 109 as he comesout of the vert to nose down. You are now set for a new merge.

Agent360

well said

[bmwgs]

109 goes immediate vertical by....chopping throttle...holding RIGHT rudder. HIts wep. rolls out flaps

Agent please clarify the above sentence from your post.  In every plane I have flown, when you chop throttle, you are not able to engage WEP.  I just don't quite understand what you mean.  Do you throw throttle back on full, and then hit WEP?


BMWgs

[Yenny]

Hi Animl,

I think you are getting a bad response on this due to the "uber gaming the game" accusation due to your lack of understanding about this move. But we can soon put all this "suspicion" to rest by simply showing you how it is done.

When I first started playing this majik move you speak of totally confused me. It took a long time for me to understand it. This move can be done in a variety of ways. In fact it can be done in a flat turn horizontally. The move is the same except for the angles involved. When in the verticle the angles are very close. When horizontal they are very obvious and don't look wierd.

First it is very easy to get somewhat disoriented when in the vert. When you are looking forward going verticle there is no reference for you to tell what is up, down or more specifically what is horizontal and what is verticle.

I KNOW exaclty what move you speak of and exactly how to perform it. The move is actually performed at about 20 to 40 mph. There are no super g's involved. IF you have ever seen an aerial aerobatic show you will see planes doing this move all the time. The closest thing to it is what is called the "hammerhead" and more specifically it is actually known as a "slice back" in combat ACM terms.

The move can be done in a real plane. The question is would you actually do this 500 feet from the ground in real life unless you were looking at tracers coming past you and you had no choice. But that is a totally different thread. If you flub it you would stall spin and crash. IF you did it at 10k you would have time to recover.


Ok I will try to explain it in words.

You are on the six of a 109. You are closing to guns perhaps in some oblique turn either horizontal or going verticle. By doing this you are drawing lead to the target. This lead is creating an AOT ( or Angle off Tail ) from the targets perspective. The more AOT created the better the move is.
109 goes immediate verticle by....chopping throttle...holding RIGHT rudder. HIts wep. rolls out flaps
You have a response time delay because you are dictated by what the 109 does. So you pull hard to follow and the MISTAKE....continue to draw lead because it looks like you are going to get a shot.
During your pull up the 109 has hit the breaks by flying "dirty". You have not.
At this point freeze both planes.....the 109 is perfectly verticle at 90 deg and beggining a "torking roll" to the left.
You are still AOT because your halfway through your pull up. So you have somewhere around 30 to 45 deg of angle difference. This means you are going up only at 45 to 80 degress while the 109 is beginng the reversal to down.
You see this and pull even harder for a shot. Your plane then starts to "mush" because you are pulling more AOA ( Angle of Attack) than the plane can do at your current speed and angle up. At this point you are SLOWING very fast and loosing maneuver ability.
Un freez our planes.
The 109 is now stalling and now goes full left rudder, pushes nose down, stalls the down wing and performs a "flik roll" in the verticle (A flik roll is a type of snap roll that all ww2 pilots used...you can look that up) This is done by pulling hard to back left. All flaps are out by now and the plane is moving at about 30 or so mph.
The throttle is now"pulled" off NOT chopped. It is then slamed on with wep. This allows the nose to be "torked" around by using only the engine tork. Since there is nearly no airsped and therefor no air over the wings the only thing that makes the nose snap around is the tork of the engine and the low wing stall at the same time.
The 109 nose is now quickly rotating around and pointing right at you for a shot.
Your plane is NOT verticle and gives the 109 a nice platform or nice front quarter shot at a distance of about 200 or even 100 and sometime point blank. You go BOOM.

The real trick for the 109 is to mask the slowing of the plane or to mask the "brakes". If done right it looks like the 109 is moving fast but in fact he is not but YOU ARE. Proper seperation of the two planes is criticle. If you close to the 109 on his reverse you just overshoot up and he will dive to get away. If done right you will be in guns.

109's have tremendous tork and can use this great effect in controlling the plane at stall.

This move can be done even with you inside 400 and going for guns at 150 mph after a turn chase and you will still get shot. Or it can be done at high speed by using more seperation and manipulating the angles.

The counter:
If you are NOT getting hits and pulling lead when a 109 goes strait verticle and you are NOT gaining then you are primed for this move. In this case as the 109 goes vert you push nose down and make a nose down flat turn to the OPPOSITE direction from your origianal turn. Most of the time the 109 will stall over to his left BUT it can be done to the right as well. But it doesn't matter. If the 109 is going vert he must take time to nose down or make the reverse. During this time you are seperating by nosing down (not diving) and turning to the right. Gain some energy and make a turn back to the 109 as he comesout of the vert to nose down. You are now set for a new merge.

Agent360

I think this is the maneuver that Messiah1 use to kick my arse all the time =p. I think your option when you see it happening is kick right rudder and push that nose right to avoid the 109 coming down right on top of ya.

[SkyRock]

Mo...............meet........ ....Ron!

[Agent360]

109 goes immediate vertical by....chopping throttle...holding RIGHT rudder. HIts wep. rolls out flaps

Agent please clarify the above sentence from your post.  In every plane I have flown, when you chop throttle, you are not able to engage WEP.  I just don't quite understand what you mean.  Do you throw throttle back on full, and then hit WEP?


BMWgs

Made a slight typing error there I guess. It should read:
109 goes immediate vertical by....chopping throttle...holding RIGHT rudder. Roll flaps out. when flaps start coming out go full throttle and wep.

The order in which this happens depends on your initial speed on the pull up. If you are going 300+ then it is the order stated. If you are already stalling in a turn then you dont chop at all you just roll flat and pull up using rudder to control the tendancy to snap roll. You may already have flaps and wep going. In that case it's the same move but you just have to pull off the flik roll and tork roll together. You may or may not reduce throttle it just depends on how much seperation you get on the pull up. The move doesnt always work so you may chop anyway to create an overshoot instead of going for guns.

chopping throttle -  allows the plane to decelerate some as u put g load when pulling up. You can just pull up with throttle full but you will find that the power of the plane forces a wider angle or larger circle going up than if you chop it first.

Holding right rudder -  this is the "brakes" you want to decelerate enough to get the flaps out as fast as possible.

Full throttle and wep -  You are now fighting gravity and you need to keep going up to create the Angle off tail for the reverse. And you need the engine tork to roll with.

Roll out all flaps - You need the flaps to slow further at the top and to "float" during the roll over. The tork and wing stall turn the plane.

[SkyRock]

I think this is the maneuver that Messiah1 use to kick my arse all the time =p. I think your option when you see it happening is kick right rudder and push that nose right to avoid the 109 coming down right on top of ya.

"used" to kick my arse??   

[bmwgs]

Thanks

BMWgs

[Scotch]

lol @ this thread