Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: SteveBailey on June 08, 2008, 12:08:49 PM
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Why wasn't there anyone carryiong there to stop this? Oh that's right.. no second amendment type rights there. This could just as easily happened in Chicago. One day something like this will. What then, knife control? :lol
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Why wasn't there anyone carryiong there to stop this? Oh that's right.. no second amendment type rights there. This could just as easily happened in Chicago. One day something like this will. What then, knife control? :lol
BAN the butt crack pen knife NOW!!!!!!
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it's a good thing guns are baned in japan, and the people are safe from that sort of thing.
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By David Dolan
Sun Jun 8, 6:56 AM ET
TOKYO (Reuters) - A man who said he was tired of life went on a stabbing rampage on Sunday in a crowded Tokyo shopping street, killing seven people and wounding a dozen others.
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The man drove a rental truck into a crowd of pedestrians at lunchtime and then walked down the street knifing passers-by in Akihabara district, known for its discount electronics and maid cafes.
"I came to Akihabara to kill people," Kyodo news agency quoted the attacker as telling police. "I am tired of the world. Anyone was OK. I came alone."
A Tokyo police spokesman said at least seven people had been killed and 12 wounded.
"The man jumped on top of a man he had hit with his vehicle and stabbed him with a knife many times," Kyodo quoted a 19-year-old witness as saying. "Walking toward Akihabara Station, he slashed nearby people at random."
The dead were six men aged 19 to 74 and a 21-year-old woman, the news agency said.
The police said a man had been arrested, and television stations showed a slight, blood-splattered 25-year-old being herded into a police car.
Witnesses said the rampage was stopped when a policeman armed with a gun confronted the man, who NHK television said was shouting as he cut down his victims.
The street, usually crowded with tourists and locals seeking cheap gadgets, was cleared by police, who searched for evidence amid pools of blood.
"It's pretty shocking, considering that I come here all the time," a man told NHK.
The rampage came on the seventh anniversary of a massacre at a Japanese primary school, when a knife-wielding janitor and former mental patient killed eight schoolchildren. He was later executed for the killings.
Although Japan has relatively little violent crime, such high-profile cases have raised public concern about violence.
Shooting deaths remain rare in Japan, although there have been some recent cases involving "yakuza" criminal gangs.
As well as electronics, Akihabara has become known in recent years as a centre for Japan's expansive "nerd" culture of video games, comic books and outlandish fashion -- including street performers and cafes with waitresses dressed as French maids.
(Editing by David Fogarty)
My question is, how many died from being hit by a truck?
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it's a good thing guns are baned in japan, and the people are safe from that sort of thing.
Had they all been armed there would been alot more casualties as everyone would've shot each other, not knowing who started it, but everyone's pointing a gun at each other because everyone's holding a gun and looks like the shooter who started it. There's so many people over there.
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Had they all been armed there would been alot more casualties as everyone would've shot each other, not knowing who started it, but everyone's pointing a gun at each other because everyone's holding a gun and looks like the shooter who started it. There's so many people over there.
What? You think people would have shot each other because they would have thought the other people with guns did the stabbing?
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Why wasn't there anyone carryiong there to stop this? Oh that's right.. no second amendment type rights there. This could just as easily happened in Chicago. One day something like this will. What then, knife control? :lol
you would better shut up,in your armed country there was so much examples of failures of your theory who can believe it will ever work ?
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More people are killed by civilians with assault vehicles than those with assault rifles.
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you would better shut up,in your armed country there was so much examples of failures of your theory who can believe it will ever work ?
My theory is that gun bans do nothing to reduce crime. Show me one example where I'm wrong... just one.
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Had they all been armed there would been alot more casualties as everyone would've shot each other, not knowing who started it, but everyone's pointing a gun at each other because everyone's holding a gun and looks like the shooter who started it. There's so many people over there.
Wow, you must have a crystal ball, knowing how these people would react. What are our national powerball numbers going to be? I'll split the proceeds with you.
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Had they all been armed there would been alot more casualties as everyone would've shot each other, not knowing who started it
This is a deeply ignorant thought.
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you would better shut up,in your armed country there was so much examples of failures of your theory who can believe it will ever work ?
with respect, this is another example of uneducated ignorant arrogance.
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My question is, how many died from being hit by a truck?
Ya, no kiddin. We should probably demand they ban trucks.
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This is a deeply ignorant thought.
You do realize it was fishu don't you.
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I Will Kill People in Akihabara
06/08 05:21
I will come barging in with a vehicle
if I can't use the vehicle, I will use a knife.
Farewell, everyone.
(http://www.yukawanet.com/sunday/image/2008/ota/byokan_cap2.jpg)
(http://www.yukawanet.com/sunday/image/2008/ota/byokan_cap.jpg)
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Had they all been armed there would been alot more casualties as everyone would've shot each other, not knowing who started it, but everyone's pointing a gun at each other because everyone's holding a gun and looks like the shooter who started it. There's so many people over there.
you would better shut up,in your armed country there was so much examples of failures of your theory who can believe it will ever work ?
And the winner is.?
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The question is if guns weren't banned in Japan what would the body count have been?
In such dense populations I imagine it would've got fairly high fairly quickly.
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The question is if guns weren't banned in Japan what would the body count have been?
In such dense populations I imagine it would've got fairly high fairly quickly.
Considering Japanese culture and recent history this is a reasonable statement. One could fairly argue that, due to their recently demonstrated propensity for waging total war, post-war Japan was better off being unarmed in every aspect.
It is telling that one violently sick man was able to stab 17 people, killing over half that number in a few short minutes. I hope the Japanese legal system allows for capitol punishment........the debt the killer owes to the survivors is well beyond his own life to repay. He should be put down quickly, for his own sake as well as everyone else's.
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A terrible tragedy.
I don't think you can draw a simple, one-size-fits-all conclusion about different societies and guns. Switzerland is well armed and Japan is unarmed, yet both are among the safest countries on the planet. Culture, more than weapons, affects overall crime rate.
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It is telling that one violently sick man was able to stab 17 people, killing over half that number in a few short minutes.
I don't think it's that astounding. I've never been to japan but seeing the density of people in some areas running amok on a street chocka with pedestrians wouldn't be that hard with a knife. A firearm however, unless silenced, would attract instant attention. Besides it sounds like he injured his first victims with a truck first.
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The question is if guns weren't banned in Japan what would the body count have been?
In such dense populations I imagine it would've got fairly high fairly quickly.
Say, higher than 17?
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Had they all been armed there would been alot more casualties as everyone would've shot each other, not knowing who started it, but everyone's pointing a gun at each other because everyone's holding a gun and looks like the shooter who started it. There's so many people over there.
Hmmm just wondering... this oft-stated theory that "if everyone is armed and someone goes postal - then everyone will start blowing everyone else away in the chaos"
Can someone cite an example where this has ever happened ?
Serious question - I'm not playing politics...
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World War II?
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World War II?
World war II was largely a result of gun control
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There is one thing, in regards to the original post; Even in the U.S., there are not very many instances where a CCW or civilian pulled a gun to stop a shooter. The only famous one I can think of off of the top of my head, is the U of T observation tower shootings' in 1966.
In the report afterwards, one of the local P.D. officers' gave credit to the armed civilians. He stated that their fire made Charles Whitman keep his head down, thus making it hard for him to further kill anyone else.
But, he still killed 14 and wounded 29, as of that morning. No, the civilians' weren't shooting each other. They knew who the gunman was; All of the fire was coming from the observation deck of the tower. But, the civilians' weren't able to stop Whitman by themselves. Two cops (and one hastily deputized citizen) went up to the observation deck and killed Whitman.
From the U of Texas' shootings, it's really kind of hard to tell if an armed populace had much impact. The police report does credit them, but Whitman's rampage was very deadly anyway.
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There is one thing, in regards to the original post; Even in the U.S., there are not very many instances where a CCW or civilian pulled a gun to stop a shooter.
wrong, my friend. They just do not get much publicity. Want some links?
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My girlfriend asked me what I was laughing about, and I told her that Japanese should be carrying guns to make Japan safer. She looked at me like I was nuts. :lol
Steve, you live in Arizona - the most dangerous and violent state in the entire US - and giving advice about public safety? We really don't need guns in Japan. Some people need them in America. You do it your way, other countries will do it their way. OK? ;)
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What's with that guy. I swear Asian guys could do some serious damage when they get ticked off... just like VTK killer Cho Sueing Hui.
Btw, Is that a yakuza gone crazy or he just wants to kill some otakus? I saw photos of the incident (2ch-style forums) and he dresses like your typical gangstas in Japan.
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He was not yakuza, just a nutcase. Real yakuza dress like bankers now.
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Different mindsets between the Far East and West.
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Steve, you live in Arizona - the most dangerous and violent state in the entire US -
Wrong.... again.
Arizona isn't even in the top 10. Debating with you is easy, you are always uninformed and wrong.
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Arizona has never been out of the top 5 most dangerous states.
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http://money.cnn.com/2007/03/22/real_estate/dangerous_states/index.htm (http://money.cnn.com/2007/03/22/real_estate/dangerous_states/index.htm)
http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=20469 (http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=20469)
http://money.aol.com/mortgage/most-dangerous-states (http://money.aol.com/mortgage/most-dangerous-states) Look at number 5 on this one. Actually have to do some clicking.
Looks like Arizona is pretty up there to me Steve.
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sorry Steve, looks like rolex is correct.....
http://money.cnn.com/2007/03/22/real_estate/dangerous_states/index.htm
dang it, mensa beat me to it. lol
NOT
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Sorry fellas, youare way off. Look more closely at your links. AZ ranks #2 in auto theft which is not a violent crime and does not equate to dangerous. Auto theft is a property crime and has nothing to do with ciolent crime. Here's the facts on VIOLENT crime: with the link at the bottom
#1 District of Columbia: 1.379 per 100 people
#2 South Carolina: 0.774 per 100 people
#3 Florida: 0.696 per 100 people
#4 Maryland: 0.695 per 100 people
#5 Tennessee: 0.688 per 100 people
#6 New Mexico: 0.678 per 100 people
#7 Louisiana: 0.638 per 100 people
#8 Alaska: 0.627 per 100 people
#9 Nevada: 0.595 per 100 people
#10 Delaware: 0.56 per 100 people
#11 California: 0.548 per 100 people
#12 Illinois: 0.541 per 100 people
#13 Texas: 0.532 per 100 people
#14 Oklahoma: 0.497 per 100 people
#15 Arkansas: 0.494 per 100 people
#16 Michigan: 0.49 per 100 people
#17 Missouri: 0.487 per 100 people
#18 Arizona: 0.487 per 100 people
http://www.statemaster.com/graph/cri_vio_cri_percap-crime-violent-per-capita (http://www.statemaster.com/graph/cri_vio_cri_percap-crime-violent-per-capita)
That's per capita. If you went by actual numbers of violent crime, per the FBI, AZ ranks around 16. Unless of course you guys want to consider things like car theft and shoplifting as violnet crimes.... no-one else does.
http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius2006/data/table_05.html (http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius2006/data/table_05.html)
Edit: Before you try the "carjacking is part of auto theft and therefore it can be a violent crime" tack... no... that's robbery.
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I will admit i was surprised at Arizona being high on the one list. Not a state I associate with crime. So i guess it depends on which site is more reputable, as to which too believe. Ga. is 9 on 1 list but 20th on another, so who really knows.
NOT
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Sorry fellas, youare way off. Look more closely at your links. AZ ranks #2 in auto theft which is not a violent crime and does not equate to dangerous. Auto theft is a property crime and has nothing to do with ciolent crime. Here's the facts on VIOLENT crime: with the link at the bottom
<snip>
Car-jacker are polite in Arizona :lol
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I will admit i was surprised at Arizona being high on the one list. Not a state I associate with crime. So i guess it depends on which site is more reputable, as to which too believe. Ga. is 9 on 1 list but 20th on another, so who really knows.
NOT
Our proximity to the border makes us very susceptible to vehicle theft so both sites are probably accurate but Rolex claimed
Steve, you live in Arizona - the most dangerous and violent state in the entire US
So we are talking about danger and violence. The sites you guys linked lists overall crime which, while the numbers are probably accurate, does not reflect violent crime but overall crime.
Auto theft pushes AZ way up the list for overall crime rate but has it has nothing to do with violent crime. It is a property crime.
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Car-jacker are polite in Arizona :lol
No, car jacking is considered robbery, not auto theft. Only the obtuse would not understand this.
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Arizona has never been out of the top 5 most dangerous states.
With the Grand Canyon being there, there are more cliffs per capita than any other state.
(http://watchingapple.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/06/coyote.jpg)
It's tough to fall off of Kansas.
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No, car jacking is considered robbery, not auto theft. Only the obtuse would not understand this.
I know I'm dense , I feel like I'm from arizona.
Btw discarding the whole stats using a subset of the stats is incoherent.
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World war II was largely a result of gun control
...and Korea was a result of a bad chicken curry right?
Tronsky
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I know I'm dense , I feel like I'm from arizona.
Btw discarding the whole stats using a subset of the stats is incoherent.
Seems awfully coherent to me. The discussion centered on violence so he discarded the non-violent crimes.
A regular auto theft is not counted. A car jacking is considered a robbery, so it is counted.
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It's perhaps because I'm speaking a latin based language but I don't understand the difference between crime and violent crime.
I've read the associated wiki article http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Violent_crime and I understand why we cannot agree
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seems that for murder.. arizona is 7th....http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.php?did=169
It used to be like 20th in the last few years tho illegal immigration has shot the crime up.
As for the stabbing problem in japan.. I see it as a real danger... they have a culture of suicide there. Now that one has gotten his 15 minutes of fame with a "dark avenger" kind of suicide..... it will become more common
I do not feel that arming them would be a good idea.. for pretty much the same reason that they shouldn't have drivers licenses.... If I had to be there I would want a gun tho.
rolex is right.. it is a matter of culture more than anything.. I fear that the culture of suicide (highest rate in the world) and the whole "dark avenger culture" is gonna become a nasty mix for our little yellow friends.
Another interesting fact is that.. on the whole.. getting shot with a handgun and getting stabbed have the same 80% survival rate. fear guns... fear knives.. fear weapons.... same same.
lazs
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oh.. and whitman? he was a lifelong hunter and marine who was a better shot than probly anyone on this board. He had the high ground and was the first to ever do such a shooting. he killed with ease for a long time. When the people got their guns and started shooting back at his protected and well picked out spot.. he killed no more.
He could not get a shot even tho he was an expert. the shooting back also gave cover to the 2 cops and a civilian who got up into the tower and killed him.. he was prepared for an assault on the position and had a shotgun for close range... he couldn't use it because he was too busy.
There is good reason why the cops give credit to the civilians with guns.
lazs
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Mexican related crime definitely skews Arizona's stats.
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yep.. the liberals can't have it both ways.. they can't say that illegals are no problem and then point to arizona as being a crime capital.
Look back at the stats to back in 96 or before.. the crime rate is much lower.
lazs
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Morgan Quitno did the survey, some notes on morgan quitno surveys. i report, you decide.
>>Note
The FBI recommends against use of its crime statistics for the direct comparison of cities as Morgan Quitno does in its "Most Dangerous Cities" rankings. This is due to the many factors that influence crime in a particular study area such as population density and the degree of urbanization, modes of transportation of highway system, economic conditions, and citizens' attitudes toward crime. [1]
In November 2007 the executive board of the American Society of Criminology (ASC) approved a resolution opposing the development of city crime rankings from FBI Uniform Crime Reports (UCRs). The resolution states the rankings "These rankings represent an irresponsible misuse of the data and do groundless harm to many communities" and "work against a key goal of our society, which is a better understanding of crime-related issues by both scientists and the public."[2]
The U.S. Conference of Mayors has criticized the "Most Dangerous Cities" list, saying the annual city-by-city crime rankings are "distorted and damaging to cities' reputations." [3]
In October 2007 The American Society of Criminology, The U.S. Conference of Mayors, and The Federal Bureau of Investigation requested that the publisher reconsider the promotion of the book — specifically, "their inaccurate and inflammatory press release labeling cities as 'safest' and 'most dangerous'" — because the rankings are "baseless and damaging." [4]
Cities of Illinois are not included in this ranking, due to unmatch in rape cases between Illinois State police data and FBI data.
Other cities may not be included due to lack of some data.
Morgan Quitno's "Most Dangerous Cities" ranking has been criticized as a statistical half-truth, since it does not adjust rankings of cities with wide area city limits (Houston, Jacksonville) compared to cities with inner core limits (St. Louis, Atlanta). Houston's city crime statistics, for instance, are diluted by lower crime in affluent areas within its broad city limits, whereas almost all the low crime affluent areas of St. Louis are outside its city limits, which constitute only 12.5% of its metro area. St. Louis would fall far down the dangerous cities list just by annexing adjacent suburbs in this methodology, with no actual change in personal safety. Metro area rankings include all suburbs for all MSAs and therefore have some validity>>
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seems that for murder.. arizona is 7th....http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.php?did=169
It used to be like 20th in the last few years tho illegal immigration has shot the crime up.
As for the stabbing problem in japan.. I see it as a real danger... they have a culture of suicide there. Now that one has gotten his 15 minutes of fame with a "dark avenger" kind of suicide..... it will become more common
I do not feel that arming them would be a good idea.. for pretty much the same reason that they shouldn't have drivers licenses.... If I had to be there I would want a gun tho.
rolex is right.. it is a matter of culture more than anything.. I fear that the culture of suicide (highest rate in the world) and the whole "dark avenger culture" is gonna become a nasty mix for our little yellow friends.
Another interesting fact is that.. on the whole.. getting shot with a handgun and getting stabbed have the same 80% survival rate. fear guns... fear knives.. fear weapons.... same same.
lazs
We needn't go back too many decades to see where Japan's "culture" took them. It certainly was not a nonviolent culture though perhaps they didn't murder as many of themselves directly as they did of their neighbors.
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...and Korea was a result of a bad chicken curry right?
Tronsky
One reason Hitler and his party were able to stay in power and murder millions was because of his gun control laws. Do you need a history lesson or are you happy being ignorant?
Edit: Here, just in case you actually want to know something about what you are discussing, here's a sample of the Nazi weapon law of 1938: Jews (§5 of the First Regulations of the German Citizenship Law of 14 November 1935, Reichsgesetzblatt I, p. 1333) are prohibited from acquiring, possessing, and carrying firearms and ammunition, as well as truncheons or stabbing weapons. Those now possessing weapons and ammunition are at once to turn them over to the local police authority.
Joseph Goebbels on Kristallnacht, after the jews were disarmed:
, "All Jewish stores are to be destroyed immediately . . . . Jewish synagogues are to be set on fire . . . . The Führer wishes that the police does not intervene. . . . All Jews are to be disarmed. In the event of resistance they are to be shot immediately
Still want to talk about curry chicken?
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I want to speak of curry chicken , please provide us a real example of a country freed by its own because of the absence of gun control
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I want to speak of curry chicken , please provide us a real example of a country freed by its own because of the absence of gun control
USA
owned
Next!
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See Rule #4
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<<<<<<<<---------Knows better than to post here
:noid :noid :noid :noid
ROX
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See Rule #4
by its own
Yep. Can you? Straffo, you asked for one example, you got one. How about Republic of Texas, 1836? There's another.
Wouldn't you consider France in 1789? No, you wouldn't because you are not having a discussion, you are merely looking to insult me after you've been shown to be wrong..... again.
Owned.
Next!
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my arse , I didn't used the word obtuse ,you did.
<edit> btw I agree I over reacted
The texas revolution was great success,so successful it took only two wars to complete the job !
<edit>It doesn't compare to the situation of the jew in germany IMO , the mexican state in the past was certainly as pitiful as it is today.
<edit2> (can't get my brain to work really today) ,France ,starting in 1789 followed a sucession of changes from total monarchy to constitutional monarchy then republic and finally dictatorship
I wonder if the french people can be considered as free before 1958 (but it's my very own opinion)
And as today there is so much archaisms in my country I wonder if it's not something I'm pinning my hopes on
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I want to speak of curry chicken , please provide us a real example of a country freed by its own because of the absence of gun control
Algeria, french indo-china.
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my arse , I didn't used the word obtuse ,you did.
<edit> btw I agree I over reacted
The texas revolution was great success,so successful it took only two wars to complete the job !
<edit>It doesn't compare to the situation of the jew in germany IMO , the mexican state in the past was certainly as pitiful as it is today.
Certainly Germany was more organized than Old Mexico. And you are right about Texas in that it was in a precarious position after the revolutoin. But it did gain it's independence from Mexico under the circumstances we are discussing.
FWIW, I am well aware of the key assistance your country gave us in our war of independence. I thank you.
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Algeria, french indo-china.
there was gun control in both cases,I know it for sure :)
<edit> no need to thank me, you can thank my country but not me , I was not involved in any help.
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,France ,starting in 1789 followed a sucession of changes from total monarchy to constitutional monarchy then republic and finally dictatorship
I wonder if the french people can be considered as free before 1958 (but it's my very own opinion)
And as today there is so much archaisms in my country I wonder if it's not something I'm pinning my hopes on
Well, I find the history of France to be very interesting but no doubt you are far more knowledgeable than I about it.
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I think Somalia would be a good example of a country without gun control laws.
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there was gun control in both cases,I know it for sure :)
<edit> no need to thank me, you can thank my country but not me , I was not involved in any help.
heheh I think you were taking me too literally... I was referring to France herself, you as a represetative thereof in this discussion.
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I think you were the witness of a major brain dysfunction on my end ,I'll better go to sleep right now (21:58 here)
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Now hug and make up...
:D
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I think Somalia would be a good example of a country without gun control laws.
Somalia is good example of lawlessness, period.
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Only when a police officer pointed a gun at him did he drop the knife and was eventually subdued.
Things that make you go, "Hmmmmmm....".
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Perhaps a better scenario would have been:
Police Officer; BANG BANG BANG BANG "drop the knife"
knife guy, BLEED, BLEED, BLEED, BLEED A LOT (background visible through several new openings in torso) Fall to ground.
Police Officer; Good knife guy.
Knife guy; start decomposition.
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wrong, my friend. They just do not get much publicity. Want some links?
Sorry I took so long to get back to this. I was actually thinking of the high-profile, high-bodycount shootings' that make media field-days, Steve. I was going to also point out the woman who recently pulled her off-duty piece and stopped the guy in church.
I was pointing out things' like the UT shooting because, well...It seems' like for every crazed gunman with a bodycount, we suddenly see new gun control regulation. I mean, you'd think that would apply across the board for all kinds' of things. Whenever they have 20-30 car pileups' during the early winter because people are still too used to driving too fast, and hit the early Fall fog here in the San Jualquin valley, they would suddenly introduce a new law...they don't do toejam.
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A law never impresses one who is not inclined to follow it. A law never stopped anyone from doing something they really wanted to. A law is not a solution when it is not complied with and except for incarceration nothing forces compliance with a law if the individual chooses not to comply.
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A law never impresses one who is not inclined to follow it. A law never stopped anyone from doing something they really wanted to. A law is not a solution when it is not complied with and except for incarceration nothing forces compliance with a law if the individual chooses not to comply.
Only too true, Maverick. They are only words on a piece of paper to a crooked man.
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I want to speak of curry chicken , please provide us a real example of a country freed by its own because of the absence of gun control
Switzerland.
WWII - Hitler never invaded because he knew they could never take it (virtually every citizen was well armed).
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wrong example you can proove something with an experience that never happened.
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One reason Hitler and his party were able to stay in power and murder millions was because of his gun control laws. Do you need a history lesson or are you happy being ignorant?
Edit: Here, just in case you actually want to know something about what you are discussing, here's a sample of the Nazi weapon law of 1938:
Joseph Goebbels on Kristallnacht, after the jews were disarmed:
Still want to talk about curry chicken?
The worse part is I think you're actually serious...and I'm the ignorant one?
But even asuming your History channel'esque idea had "some" merit the Weimar republic had already enacted gun control laws in the late 1920's as an attempt to rein in the political private armies of the comunists, and various nationalist/veterans groups. That the Nazis themselves further extended the controls against the Jews in 1938, only reinforces the idea the National socialist govt always legalised its oppression of the Jews. The law of 1938 is only as relevant as the fact that not only was private ownership of firearms in germany before the rise of the Nazis not only very low, but the idea that somehow by 1938 Hitlers govt. could've been overthrown by anything less than a general revolt of the army is ludicrous.
And by virtue that Hitler came to power by the ballot and was exceptionally popular by the late 30's, also makes the idea of a real populist (let alone Jewish) driven resistance by 1938 nothing but drivel even assuming such a thing existed.
Tronsky
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switzerland and the US.. both were never attacked because of their lack of gun control laws.. the japs did not attack our mainland because everyone was armed.
Maverick.. not only do criminals ignore laws but the more stupid laws that are made.. the more the normally law abiding and moral people ignore all laws..
Bad laws lead to people ignoring all laws.
lazs
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The worse part is I think you're actually serious...and I'm the ignorant one?
Tronsky
Yes, you are. The 1938 law was not limited to jews, I only posted a small portion of it.
Previous gun bans don't change the fact that one reason Hitler was able to abuse his populace and stay in power was due to tight gun control. Had reason prevailed and Hiler been driven from office, WWII might have been quite different, perhaps it might not have occurred at all.
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switzerland and the US.. both were never attacked because of their lack of gun control laws.. the japs did not attack our mainland because everyone was armed.
lazs
Yup: Switzerland was the only country in Europe, indeed in the world, where every man had a military rifle in his home. Nazi invasion plans acknowledged the dissuasive nature of this armed populace,
Lazs, this will interest you, regarding our Brit members who are convinved they don't need guns:
British civilians, faced with the threat of invasion, desperately need arms for the defense of their homes." Indeed, the New York Times carried the same solicitations. After two decades of gun control, British citizens now desperately needed rifles and pistols in their homes, and they received the gifts with great appreciation.
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the nazi plan also integrated interest and geography and it out weighted largely the militia myth !
plus germany was already busy trying invading an insignificant country called Britain and later another insignificant country called USSR :D
but you're still free to believe what fit better your opinion
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the nazi plan also integrated interest and geography and it out weighted largely the militia myth !
plus germany was already busy trying invading an insignificant country called Britain and later another insignificant country called USSR :D
but you're still free to believe what fit better your opinion
This is obviously posted merely for the sake of belligerence. The '38 law was a follow up on the '28 law. It is utterly intellectually dishonest of you to refuse to consider that an armed populace might have been able to remove Hitler from power.
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the nazi plan also integrated interest and geography and it out weighted largely the militia myth !
plus germany was already busy trying invading an insignificant country called Britain and later another insignificant country called USSR :D
but you're still free to believe what fit better your opinion
Not so - Hitler desperately wanted to annex Switzerland because of the gold reserves + high percentage (majority) of indigenous Germans living there. Yes the terrain played a MINOR part, but the main reason was the well armed population (after all - why would you go to the mountains and set up an insurgency if you had no weapons to fight with ?).
Consider if Switzerland was unarmed - do you really think mountains would have stopped Hitler's war machine ? France has mountains too.
Look at a map and consider during the vast majority of WWII, LITTLE Switzerland was completely surrounded by Facist states. Can you name me any other country in the region that was unarmed, surrounded by hostile states + avoided being invaded ?
Even Machiavelli`s 16th Century political writings called Switzerland "most armed and most free.". To this day, this has not changed... How many other countries can boast having avoided major turmoil and invasion for so long ?
Switzerland is the most well armed western nation on earth (in terms of private citizens) - private citizens can own fully automatic weapons, anti-aircraft weapons and even artillery. Switzerland also has the SMALLEST government of any western nation - Switzerland is one of the freest nations on earth.
Incidentally, there is so little crime in Switzerland that official statistics are not kept.
Conclusion : Well armed citizens + small government = As Close To Utopia As You Will Ever Get.
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we have mountain on our border with germany ?
it's new ?
and good luck to find any of your indigenous german in switzerland :D
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we have mountain on our border with germany ?
it's new ?
You have the Ardennes. The forest will keep out the hun.
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It's more a hill than a mountain !
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we have mountain on our border with germany ?
and good luck to find any of your indigenous german in switzerland :D
Look at a topographic map - the Swiss border with Germany is relatively flat - Switzerland's largest mountains are to the south - none of the large key cities (Bern, Zürich etc) are overly protected by mountains.
If mountains alone could have stopped Hitler's war machine, then the French would have simply headed for the french alps and held them at bay using Ewok tactics (hurling large stones, improvised log traps etc.).
Clearly mountains were not the deciding factor in keeping Switzerland free from invasion - a heavily armed civilian population was. Hitler knew that every yard gained would have been heavily paid for in blood.
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not only : http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schweizer_Reduit
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Most of the military histories of WW II that I have read over the years have stated that Hitler chose not to attack Switzerland because his generals told him that the cost would have been prohibitive, despite the small size of the Swiss Army. The Swiss Army is a militia in the truest sense of the word; all healthy males can be called up for service, and have received several years of military training. Even when they have finished their full time service, they can be called up for emergencies.
I traveled through Switzerland several years back. While the terrain has a varied topography, it is sufficiently rugged to render the use of blitzkrieg tactics null and void. Attacking forces would be forced to advance up river valleys that are like funnels. The Germans might have prevailed, in the same sense that the Russians prevailed over Finland. To paraphrase one Russian general, "We gained just enough territory to bury our dead."
One side benefit for the Swiss of this ability to mass mobilize a populace which has a high degree of military training, is one of the lowest violent crime rates in the world.
The Swiss have a long history of military excellence. Swiss pike-men, supremely disciplined and fighting in highly mobile squares, kicked the Burgundians and their highly touted cavalry out of the cantons. During the time of the Renaissance, they were considered the finest infantry in Europe. It is the reputation for toughness and discipline that has maintained their neutrality for more than 200 years.
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Clearly mountains were not the deciding factor in keeping Switzerland free from invasion - a heavily armed civilian population was. Hitler knew that every yard gained would have been heavily paid for in blood.
i'm sure having that having a geographically handily placed bank like switzerland to launder their plunder was never a consideration in the nazis decision not to invade.
your probably right.. carry on
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With the Grand Canyon being there, there are more cliffs per capita than any other state.
(http://watchingapple.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/06/coyote.jpg)
It's tough to fall off of Kansas.
Was going to read the whole thread. Won't. I'm stopping while I'm ahead. Great post Holden!
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by the same token... Hitler knew he would face little resistance once he hit the beach in england if he defeated the air force and navy.. the population were just sheep with broomsticks carved to look like guns and real guns their former (and free) colony sent em. I have a 1917 smith and wesson with brit proof marks.. it was sent to england and then sent back after the war.
Japan? the japs made great strides at the end of the war to arm the fanatical population and the US did fear that the killing on both sides would be monstrous.
Japan is a culture of suicide right now... it is the worst in the world... If you combine the culture of suicide with the culture of the "dark avenger" teen angst crapola... you get the kind of killings we have been getting at our schools.. it will be much worse in japan tho. guns, knives.. about the same in crowds like japan has.
lazs
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This is obviously posted merely for the sake of belligerence. The '38 law was a follow up on the '28 law. It is utterly intellectually dishonest of you to refuse to consider that an armed populace might have been able to remove Hitler from power.
Yes and I'm sure if they had access to gigantic robots theymight also removed Hitler from power - but ignoring the fact that Hitler held on to power through other govt. controls and the restoration of social/economic stability ensured there was no actual popular resistance to take up any arms banned or not (or said robots) - again the only actual way Hitler could have been removed from power by 1938 was from a general mutiny of the armed forces - ignoring how Germany actually truly operated after 1933 makes your case utterly ridiculous and further faniciful fantasizing only reinforces the transparency of that argument.
Tronsky
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Straffo,
Nice hijack. Not only did you derail the entire thread but managed to also hook several fish on a rusty bare hook. Nicely done.
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Someone still has to say it was Bush's fault or "Boosh is the Devil" to end this thread...
wait...never mind.
:D
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A terrible tragedy.
I don't think you can draw a simple, one-size-fits-all conclusion about different societies and guns. Switzerland is well armed and Japan is unarmed, yet both are among the safest countries on the planet. Culture, more than weapons, affects overall crime rate.
Well said sir. :salute
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it was not my intent maveric
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as was said.....
"A terrible tragedy.I don't think you can draw a simple, one-size-fits-all conclusion about different societies and guns. Switzerland is well armed and Japan is unarmed, yet both are among the safest countries on the planet. Culture, more than weapons, affects overall crime rate."
yep... and a culture of suicide and a culture of teen angst that fosters even 10 of these events a year will not really change the overall murder rate or crime rate... while spectacular.. these types of crimes are rare. Even 10 a year of the same magnitude (highly doubtful) would only mean 70 or so more people killed a year.. more than that choke on chicken bones.
These are the kinds of things that fuel the press and the socialists tho.. it is "good" reason to further restrict personal freedoms and further disarm any society.
lazs
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You've said this a couple times now, but I don't understand your point. This guy wasn't suicidal, he was delusional. He didn't try to commit suicide. He was a paranoid type who mistakenly believed he was being fired from his job. Japan does have a high suicide rate, 10th in the world, but most are over 50 and ill, and don't want to be a burden to their families. Teenager suicide is not significantly higher than anywhere else. Maybe you're trying to apply the image of US mass murders, such as the Va Tech and Columbine, to Japan?
I also don't get your teen angst point, either. This guy, and most people who commit murder in Japan, are not teenagers in angst.
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You've said this a couple times now, but I don't understand your point. This guy wasn't suicidal, he was delusional. He didn't try to commit suicide. He was a paranoid type who mistakenly believed he was being fired from his job. Japan does have a high suicide rate, 10th in the world, but most are over 50 and ill, and don't want to be a burden to their families. Teenager suicide is not significantly higher than anywhere else. Maybe you're trying to apply the image of US mass murders, such as the Va Tech and Columbine, to Japan?
I also don't get your teen angst point, either. This guy, and most people who commit murder in Japan, are not teenagers in angst.
Japan is populated with people of the same race/ethnicity. Minorities are tiny. I think their relatively low internal violence is because of this more than their culture. Their culture did not prevent them from brutalizing their neighbors in Korea, China, and Indonesia 60 or so years ago. i haven't looked it up but they may have slaughtered far more then than have been brutalized in the US in the 60 years since.
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One reason Hitler...
Though this is an interesting argument Godwin's Law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law) or more specifically Reductio ad Hitlerum (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reductio_ad_Hitlerum) take precedence from this point on.
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http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_percap-crime-murders-per-capita
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_wit_fir_percap-crime-murders-firearms-per-capita
Just some links to some interesting data, crossed referenced some of the information and seems to jive pretty well with other sources.
Top right of page has some very nifty search features on crime, suicide, economy etc.
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funny... how it is when it comes to brown people wanting the right to self defence the right wing socialists are the biggest flip floppers.
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rolex.. yes.. I am tying it to these types of killings in the US... I guess.. insane is insane.
Whitman was our first. he had a tumor. He was not a teen...after him.. it became a fad. Now, I KNOW you are not gonna tell me that the japs are not people who follow fads?
The teen suicide rate in japan IS much higher than it is in the US. Now they have an example.. they see how it can be done just like in the US but without the hard to get firearms. They see the fame and fear.
I am of course... guessing.. the place just seems ripe for such things.
lazs
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Japan is no different from anywhere else in several respects. One is that no society is paradise and without faults. Another is that their politicians will try to con the population into thinking that they have the power to legislate away crimes of passion by the insane.
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funny... how it is when it comes to brown people wanting the right to self defence the right wing socialists are the biggest flip floppers.
Can anyone translate this?
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tried... nope
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Toad,
Looks like an al sharpton wannabe I guess. He has nothing else to add but to throw out the race card.
:huh
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There is one thing, in regards to the original post; Even in the U.S., there are not very many instances where a CCW or civilian pulled a gun to stop a shooter. The only famous one I can think of off of the top of my head, is the U of T observation tower shootings' in 1966.
In the report afterwards, one of the local P.D. officers' gave credit to the armed civilians. He stated that their fire made Charles Whitman keep his head down, thus making it hard for him to further kill anyone else.
But, he still killed 14 and wounded 29, as of that morning. No, the civilians' weren't shooting each other. They knew who the gunman was; All of the fire was coming from the observation deck of the tower. But, the civilians' weren't able to stop Whitman by themselves. Two cops (and one hastily deputized citizen) went up to the observation deck and killed Whitman.
From the U of Texas' shootings, it's really kind of hard to tell if an armed populace had much impact. The police report does credit them, but Whitman's rampage was very deadly anyway.
There are LOT'S more then that and at least one that was fairly recent.
The woman in the church against the crazy IIRC.
She actually got into the news.... perhaps because she was a woman?
Part of the issue is the MEDIA doesn't print or show those things..................
IMHO part of the reason such things are NOT shown is the OWNERS/BOARD of DIRECTORS seem to think there is not enough interest in such things by the public...................
or maybe too many of the owners are like George Sorros?
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rolex... so far we are not in dissagreement on the issue.
Torque.. like many others here.. I have no idea what you are talking about with "brown people" My girlfriend is brown and I am the one who got her the firearm she has and am training her with it.
I probly don't fit a "right wing" description much tho except to a liberal socialist like yourself. I am more of an "individualist".
lazs
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Switzerland.
WWII - Hitler never invaded because he knew they could never take it (virtually every citizen was well armed).
I think it had more to do with all the money Nazi Germany had in the Swiss banks that kept Switzerland safe more than anything else. Besides, Switzerland was sympathetic to the Nazi cause, just not overtly so.
ack-ack
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Can anyone translate this?
My popsicle hurts?
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4- Members should post in a way that is respectful of other users and HTC. Flaming or abusing users is not tolerated.
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4- Members should post in a way that is respectful of other users and HTC. Flaming or abusing users is not tolerated.
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4- Members should post in a way that is respectful of other users and HTC. Flaming or abusing users is not tolerated.