Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Yarbles on June 16, 2008, 11:18:49 AM
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"I still cant think of any good reason why the spit 14 is perked in this game"
Well I cant. Its a plane that was heavily produced in the late war and does not have the uber characteristics of the Tempest or 262. In a turn fight down low there are allot of better planes and at Alt its not necessarily better than the P51 or P47.
So whats it all about eh?
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I'll second that. Unperk the Spit14.
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If you fly a spit 14 you need to keep a hard deck of 10k or so. Below that you'll just get yourself in trouble. It's a great plane but don't think it deserves a perk equal to that of a C-Hog. If it does have a perk then it should be half that of the c-hog...making it around 5-7 perks when the perk bonus is 1.00.
PS read my sig....been wanting this for sometime now!
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The higher you go in a Spit 14 the better it gets. However i agree with you it shouldn't be perked with the way the game is played now.
It used to be with the low number of players that you'd take off and climb anywhere from 2 to 3 sectors to find a fight, thus getting tons of altitude. The Spit 14 is one of just a few that really rocks way up high and when they introduced it to the game everyone started to fly it. Kind of like the Spit 16 now.
With the larger numbers of players now and the trend to low level fighting, 16k or lower, the Spit 14 wouldn't be my first choice now days. I'd take a Spit 8 or 16 now before i'd even think about taking a 14.
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The higher you go in a Spit 14 the better it gets. However i agree with you it shouldn't be perked with the way the game is played now.
It used to be with the low number of players that you'd take off and climb anywhere from 2 to 3 sectors to find a fight, thus getting tons of altitude. The Spit 14 is one of just a few that really rocks way up high and when they introduced it to the game everyone started to fly it. Kind of like the Spit 16 now.
With the larger numbers of players now and the trend to low level fighting, 16k or lower, the Spit 14 wouldn't be my first choice now days. I'd take a Spit 8 or 16 now before i'd even think about taking a 14.
Exactly and therefore it is not going to unbalance the game in any way if it is unperked.
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I think I know why the Spit 14 is perked.
If it wasnt it would put the pony out of business on everything except range. Its faster on Wep. climbs and turns better and hits harder. I know which I would choose ;)
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Same goes for the 109K...
I think the Spit14 should be unperked as well... most noobs would try to fly it and be surprised they can't yank and bank like other spits... it's not as easy to fly as the others and has nasty torque... it's vertical performance is great though, especially at high altitude.
Looking through the charts, it's about equal to the 109K except it's turn radius is about 70 yards (or is that feet?) smaller.
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I think I know why the Spit 14 is perked.
If it wasnt it would put the pony out of business on everything except range. Its faster on Wep. climbs and turns better and hits harder. I know which I would choose ;)
The pony wouldn't be out of buissness because
- the Spit's range is so short that it massively limits it's usefulness
- the Pony hauls a lot of ordonance for ground work
- the Spit has superior performance, but the Pony is somewhat easier to fly and a more stable gun platform
Overall the Spit XIV is more comparable to the 109K4 than to the Pony
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don't get me started on the spit14 fuel :cry
I asked for a large DT option on the spit14 before, to justify its perk price. That way we will be able to use the 14 at its best alt.
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don't get me started on the spit14 fuel :cry
I asked for a large DT option on the spit14 before, to justify its perk price. That way we will be able to use the 14 at its best alt.
It has the 30 gallon DT does it not?
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These arguments have me convinced. I fully support the unperking of the Spit XIV!!! :D
<S>
Yossarian
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Overall the Spit XIV is more comparable to the 109K4 than to the Pony
So the spit 14 should have an ENY of around 20 then?
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So the spit 14 should have an ENY of around 20 then?
Not in my opinion
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if you unperk the 14 (which is a dumb idea) you need to perk the 16 and lower ENY on the K4.
Oh and i have no problem with the fuel in it. Ever heard of coasting :cool:
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if you unperk the 14 (which is a dumb idea) you need to perk the 16 and lower ENY on the K4
a) unperking the 14 isn't dumb. This plane won't be unbalancing the MA in any way. Take a look at it's K/D. In last year's fighter ranking it was #23. It's abysmal for a perk plane, especially when you consider that facts that the perk status prevents most new (=bad) players from flying it at all.
b) There is no reason right now to perk the 16, so why should there be one when the 14 is unperked?
c) lowering the ENY of the K4 is not unreasonable, but not such a big issue to me
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It has the 30 gallon DT does it not?
same slip tank that the other spits.
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BTW Do these threads ever lead to any changes or are we just amusing ourselves which is ok but you know?
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Makes me wonder about the whole perk/eny system we have now. I understand perked planes have to do with several factors (production #'s, speed, guns, ect). But is the spit 14 such a deadly plane? Same guns as a spit 16 without the clipped wings. If it had 4 hispanos with clipped wings I could see a perk on it. But in it's current configuration there is nothing special in the everyday MA fight. Don't get me wrong it's fun to fly, I just want it unperked!
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Makes me wonder about the whole perk/eny system we have now. I understand perked planes have to do with several factors (production #'s, speed, guns, ect). But is the spit 14 such a deadly plane? Same guns as a spit 16 without the clipped wings. If it had 4 hispanos with clipped wings I could see a perk on it. But in it's current configuration there is nothing special in the everyday MA fight. Don't get me wrong it's fun to fly, I just want it unperked!
You realize it has a completely different, more powerful engine than any other spit we have in game, correct?
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Stoker:
ENY and perk values aren't determined by the factors you mention - instead, the whole thing boils down to the plane's effect on gameplay, and on how the plane actually stacks up in "end result" statistics. So the talk of the Spit XIV's impact on the arenas is right on the mark.
Yarbles:
Yes, this kind of discussion does lead to results. For example, the Ta152 was a perked plane up until recently, but after guys posted fair amounts of rational, logical discussion HT came to agree with the points and made the change. Most of the time, nothing happens -- because most of the time the complaints are endless repetitions of issues that have been beaten into the ground long ago. If you want to be heard, do your research, think thihgs through, and make a rational case for the point you're trying to make. Don't whine, show maturity, and stick to the point.
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Stoker:
If you want to be heard, do your research, think thihgs through, and make a rational case for the point you're trying to make. Don't whine, show maturity, and stick to the point.
Sounds like you are having a bad day mate I did nt notice anyone doing any of the above. I like you find some of the endless whingeing repetition on here annoying but I think it is important not to tar everyone with the same brush. Rather than insulting people I would suggest you explain how unperking the 14 would "unbalance the game" in a "rational mature way" showing that "you have thought it through"!!!
I think the main point has been answered in that it is unlikely to unbalance the arena. It just gives us another plane that is good up high. I think its superior handling characteristics to the P51 and P47 might decrease their use as fighter interceptors at altitude when range isnt the issue but I do not see this as a problem as it lacks the range, durability, ammunition load and ordanance capability of these heavier planes.
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Didn't know I was whining. Thanks for letting me know! Boils down to Spit14 isn't a game unbalancing plane. If they unperk it you'll se alot of them at first then when everyone figures ont it's NOT an uber plane things will go back as they are now. Very rare to see a 14 flying around. Last night I outflew and shot down one in a 205 and he had alt coming into the fight. But in his defence he kept turning to the right...big no no in that plane. Most MA fights are low...Spit14 is not a low alt fighter. I think HTC should give it a shot at unperking it for a few tours...see what happens.
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Sounds like you are having a bad day mate I did nt notice anyone doing any of the above. I like you find some of the endless whingeing repetition on here annoying but I think it is important not to tar everyone with the same brush. Rather than insulting people I would suggest you explain how unperking the 14 would "unbalance the game" in a "rational mature way" showing that "you have thought it through"!!!
Yarbles:
Sorry, on re-reading that I can see how it might have seemed to be pointed at you. That was not my intent at all: was just trying to make an outline of how things get done in general. No insult intended~!
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Boils down to Spit14 isn't a game unbalancing plane. If they unperk it you'll se alot of them at first then when everyone figures ont it's NOT an uber plane things will go back as they are now. Very rare to see a 14 flying around. Last night I outflew and shot down one in a 205 and he had alt coming into the fight. But in his defence he kept turning to the right...big no no in that plane. Most MA fights are low...Spit14 is not a low alt fighter.
Neither is the P-51D. Neither is the Me109. These planes are geared for high altitude fighting, yet they still outperform many "low alt" planes even on the deck.
The spit14 is well over 20mph faster than most other spits. It's just about 20mph faster than the spit16. More so the other models.
It's even MORE so above this compared to the C205.
Oh, and a Spit14's engine turns the other way. Turning right for him is a GOOD thing, and bad for your c205. The c205 turns better to the left. I don't know how high you had to dive from to get onto his 6, but unless he was already in a fight or just plain dumb, you should never have caught him.
Think of a spit as fast as the P-51D at almost all altitudes, and ever faster than one above 25k+. Now imagine a p51 with 2x hispanos on it. Now you've got an idea of why the spit14 is uber. Sure, doesn't turn as tightly as the other spits -- but they're way over modeled anyways. It's still pretty darn nimble, even if it doesn't turn like a zeke.
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but they're way over modeled anyways.
How many spitfires have you flown?
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False argument.
How many krauts have you killed with a machine gun?
You can learn a lot about how machine guns worked by reading about the real folks that used them, killed with them, read the specs on them, but then you go into a game like RTCW and the machine gun takes 5 hits to the head to kill an enemy, and you know it's not right.
So, false argument aside, many folks believe the spits are over-modeled. I happen to be one of them.
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false argument aside, many folks believe the spits are over-modeled. I happen to be one of them.
Great, that's your opinion, keep it that way. Please don't state it as fact.
Edit: Kinda like reading about B-24 raids and conclude that "The b-24 never flew at tree top lvl.". It'd be an opinion, wrong but still an opinion.
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Again, a false argument.
Pulling up an old argument that was never proven. One training photo showed planes at least 60 feet above ground over trees practicing over their own airfield. The claim was they skimmed the grass so low they had grass stuck to antenna under the plane -- which had no antenna for it to stick against, and had no evidence supporting these claims.
Again, none of which has anything to do with this. It's a strawman argument to distract from the subject. It's a false argument and will get you kicked out of any court room or debate hall.
P.S. nit-picking one comment I made doesn't negate the rest of the post I made, stating that the spit14 is still 20mph+ faster than the other spits, has hispanos, fast as a p51 (faster above 25k) and is still a monster of a plane.
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P.S. nit-picking one comment I made doesn't negate the rest of the post I made, stating that the spit14 is still 20mph+ faster than the other spits, has hispanos, fast as a p51 (faster above 25k) and is still a monster of a plane.
In theory it is a monster.
In practical AH gameplay, it isn't. A very capable plane in experienced hands indeed, but not that much of a monster.
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The ki84 is a monster, despite pilots not taking 2 seconds to learn to fly it. The 109K4 is a monster despite its terrible 30mm trajectory.
The stall-speed handling of the spit14 doesn't remove it from monster-dom :D
Its top speed, zoom climb, sustained climb, and overall roll/turn (just not at 100mph) are in the top percent of the game. That and it's got hispanos.
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The ki84 is a monster, despite pilots not taking 2 seconds to learn to fly it. The 109K4 is a monster despite its terrible 30mm trajectory.
The stall-speed handling of the spit14 doesn't remove it from monster-dom :D
Its top speed, zoom climb, sustained climb, and overall roll/turn (just not at 100mph) are in the top percent of the game. That and it's got hispanos.
But it suffers (imo) from quite horrible handling.. something it has in common with that wobbly plane they call the Ta 152.
I guess that alone may be the reason for it's puny k/d over the years, despite the fact that the perk price will keep most new players away (unless Spit 16 and the likes)
There is a reason it's maybe the least flown of all perk planes by a huge margin ;)
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Pulling up an old argument that was never proven.
:rofl :rofl :rofl sure it wasn't.
Still spouting hyperbole I see.
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There is a reason it's maybe the least flown of all perk planes by a huge margin ;)
Well its a perk plane that can't run from the P51's & co and can't turn with spit16&co...and it barely outdives a spit16, which will have a better roll rate at speed...dead metal.
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Nothing you say to Krusty on this subject will get through. We went round and round in my rather verbose and as well researched as is possible for this game, thread about Unperking the Spitfire Mk XIV. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,226581.0.html)
Here are what I think are the relevant statistics. I listed all the perk fighters because the Spitfire Mk XIV is perked and should be compared in kill/death ratio and usage with its fellow perk fighters. I selected the unperked fighters by picking high usage, powerful fighters that, with the exception of the La-7, tend to draw more experienced and better players to them. I think that using this selection of unperked fighters is fair as the people that tend to fly perk planes tend to be at least moderately experienced and to fly in a more conservative manner. I included both the post-perk Ta152H-1 and pre-perk F4U-1C as a comparison with the Spitfire Mk XIV's current performance.
Late War Tour 96, 1-01-08 to 1-31-08
Perked fighters in order of their kill/death ratios:
Tempest has 6136 Kills of All models and all models have 945 Kills of Tempest. 6.49 to 1 kill/death ratio.
Me 262 has 4103 Kills of All models and all models have 698 Kills of Me 262. 5.88 to 1 kill/death ratio.
Me 163B has 790 Kills of All models and all models have 160 Kills of Me 163B. 4.94 to 1 kill/death ratio.
F4U-1C has 9910 Kills of All models and all models have 3875 Kills of F4U-1C. 2.56 to 1 kill/death ratio.
F4U-4 has 2754 Kills of All models and all models have 1256 Kills of F4U-4. 2.19 to 1 kill/death ratio.
Spitfire Mk XIV has 1454 Kills of All models and all models have 1139 Kills of Spitfire Mk XIV. 1.28 to 1 kill/death ratio.
Unperked fighters with high kill/death ratios and medium to high usage, in order of their kill/death ratios:
Bf 109K-4 has 9344 Kills of All models and all models have 5981 Kills of Bf 109K-4. 1.56 to 1 kill/death ratio.
Typhoon IB has 17053 Kills of All models and all models have 11094 Kills of Typhoon IB. 1.54 to 1 kill/death ratio.
Ta 152H has 2999 Kills of All models and all models have 2042 Kills of Ta 152H. 1.47 to 1 kill/death ratio.
Ki-84-Ia has 9016 Kills of All models and all models have 6224 Kills of Ki-84-Ia. 1.45 to 1 kill/death ratio.
P-38J has 6562 Kills of All models and all models have 4525 Kills of P-38J. 1.45 to 1 kill/death ratio.
Fw 190D-9 has 13943 Kills of All models and all models have 9865 Kills of Fw 190D-9. 1.41 to 1 kill/death ratio.
La-7 has 33201 Kills of All models and all models have 26480 Kills of La-7. 1.25 to 1 kill/death ratio.
F4U-1A has 6568 Kills of All models and all models have 5381 Kills of F4U-1A. 1.22 to 1 kill/death ratio.
Tour 15, 4-01-01 to 4-30-01, the final tour with an unperked F4U-1C:
F4U-1C has 27717 Kills of All models and all models have 20022 Kills of F4U-1C. 1.38 to 1 kill/death ratio.
What do these statistics tell us? One, the Spitfire Mk XIV has, by far, the lowest kill/death ratio of any perked fighter. Two, the Spitfire Mk XIV has the lowest usage of any perked fighter save the Me163, and that is limited to one base per country. Three, unique among perk fighters, the Spitfire Mk XIV has a lower kill/death ratio than many unperked fighters. Four, the perked Spitfire Mk XIV has a lower kill/death ratio than the recently unperked Ta152H-1. Five, the perked Spitfire Mk XIV has a lower kill/death ratio than the unperked F4U-1C did despite the fact that the F4U-1C was at the time, by far, the most popular fighter and was used by more unskilled players than any other fighter.
What do I think an unperked Spitfire Mk XIV would be like? It would probably see higher usage in Spitfires than any of them other than the Spitfire Mk XVI and Spitfire Mk VIII, though the Spitfire Mk IX might also see heavier usage. It would probably have the highest kill/death ratio of any Spitfire. I doubt it would be a popular fighter after the initial "Ooh, it's free!" period had worn off and would instead find a solid place in the second tier of fighters used by more experienced players who can manage the quirks of these fighters. It does not handle like any other Spitfire and would be offputting to most casual Spitfire users.
I think the Spitfire Mk XIV is a good fighter, but nothing worth spending perk points on. As such, it should follow the Ta152H-1's example and be unperked.
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False argument.
Don't waste your time Bronk. Cubicle Clown Boy is armed with his imagination and that supercedes experience and books anyday. :rolleyes:
I really wish he had a bazillion bucks. Maybe he'd pay for himself to get his license and if smart enough his type rating in a few of these aircraft that he claims are over modeled in game, atleast some of those that are still around.
My bet though, is that his arrogance would hurt him badly.
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woot here we go again, bodhi vs krusty, didn't the last spit14 thread end the same way ? :D
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Could it be in order to get an unperked XIV HT would have to add a perked F.21 first?
i.e. The highest performing Spit will always get perked irrespective of whether it's suited to the low alt MA or not?
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Perked and not perked is one thing.
How many perk points is another.....
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Yarbles:
Sorry, on re-reading that I can see how it might have seemed to be pointed at you. That was not my intent at all: was just trying to make an outline of how things get done in general. No insult intended~!
Thats ok I know how negative, boring and repetitive this place can seem sometimes. Its easy for ones frustrations to bubble over. ;)
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Nothing you say to Krusty on this subject will get through. We went round and round in my rather verbose and as well researched as is possible for this game, thread about Unperking the Spitfire Mk XIV. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,226581.0.html)
Krusty
When you look at Karnaks well researched and reasoned argument why do you still maintain your position which seems to be based on rhetoric and speculation.
His argument is based on evidence, logic and reason. Yours while valid as a viewpoint has little credibility besides his :frown:
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I'm all for trying how things play out with an unperked Spit14.
It worked well for the Ta152, and it will most likely work for the Spitfire XIV.
The plane wont be popular with the Spit16 crowd - it might be popular with the K4 crowd - but they get their 'uber' plane for free already and it doesn't swamp the arenas.
Oh, and a Spit 21 (I'd vote for the 22 personally, but this would probably be considered post-war) would be fun. At least that one would be perk material without having to argue about it :D
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I'm all for trying how things play out with an unperked Spit14.
It worked well for the Ta152, and it will most likely work for the Spitfire XIV.
I hope someone from HTC is reading this as I think it would be worth a try for an evaluation period and for me at least would be like introducing a new plane to the game.
Like a new plane it would be very popular initially and as more people would be killed by 14's go through a period of controversy after which it would settle down along side the other spits probably as second or third most popular. If controversy continues then eventually I would assign it a much lower perk value around that of the Sherman Firefly. I think that highly unlikely as the 16 is probably the best Spit combination of attributes and then the 8 or 14.
This seems like a monor adjustment to the game for a wignificant increase in the available plane stock to choose from.
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Krusty
When you look at Karnaks well researched and reasoned argument why do you still maintain your position which seems to be based on rhetoric and speculation.
His argument is based on evidence, logic and reason. Yours while valid as a viewpoint has little credibility besides his :frown:
Uh... He's using a list of numbers that really don't tell you anything. He's basing his argument on kill/death ratios, which tell you nothing about the plane itself. Only a systematic, exhaustive, research-intensive categorization of every sortie ever flown, how it was flown, how it ended, would clarify what the kill/death means.
And that's as absurd as trying to count the numer of raindrops in the ocean.
He's putting more emphasis on the kill/death than is really there. He bases his entire qualitative conclusion on a flawed sampling of quantitative data. It's a mismatch and he's creating conclusions where the data does not lead.
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Uh... He's using a list of numbers that really don't tell you anything. He's basing his argument on kill/death ratios, which tell you nothing about the plane itself. Only a systematic, exhaustive, research-intensive categorization of every sortie ever flown, how it was flown, how it ended, would clarify what the kill/death means.
And that's as absurd as trying to count the numer of raindrops in the ocean.
He's putting more emphasis on the kill/death than is really there. He bases his entire qualitative conclusion on a flawed sampling of quantitative data. It's a mismatch and he's creating conclusions where the data does not lead.
The quanititative data isnt flawed. It's a very good way to aprehend a plane's impact on the Arenas, which is all the perk status is about. Especially when the sample has a broad base such as all kills / deaths from a whole year.
And of course you will have to add some common sense when interpreting the data.. For example planes with huge bombloads suffer from being used the kamikaze way vs fields, cv's, wirbels (the 14 has no ords)
Free planes with a "1337" tag are attracting newbies (The Spit 14 is not free)
Popular planes with a huge "usage" suffer somewhat from a lower overall skillbase of their pilots (Spit 14 is very rare)
You can also check plane vs plane numbers.. A long term sample shows that the Spit 14 has a hard time vs it's German equivalent in the MA
Even being the cheapest perk plane, the Spit 14 is the rarest one to encounter... no a pretty convincing indicator for an "unbalancing" plane.
For the "they just don't know how to fly it".. thats just an assumption without any base. Undoubtly you can say it for the extremely popular and very capable La7, Spit 16, N1k who actually attract huge numbers of new/unskilled players.. yet they are not perked.
he perk system is a way for HTC to introduce some interesting but otherwise unbalancing planes on a limited basis but the benefits go deeper than that. Perk planes (and vehicles) would be things like Me 262s, Ta 152s, Tempests, B-29s, Ar 234s, Tiger IIs, etc. These are interesting rides but would be very unbalancing if they were available on an unlimited basis. So there won't be unlimited availability but they'll be available as bonuses or perks every so often.
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The quanititative data isnt flawed. It's a very good way to aprehend a plane's impact on the Arenas, which is all the perk status is about. Especially when the sample has a broad base such as all kills / deaths from a whole year.
What about a spit16? This plane can dominate almost every other plane in the game the way it's modeled now. Why is the kill/death so low? Because it's so popular you can get a kill and die instantly. Newbie pilots crash them before getting gear up, or auger from inexperience, or rip the wings off.
The impact on the arena isn't told through the kill/death ratio. When there's a fight involving 4 spits, and all of them are spit16s, to me that says a lot more than a kill/death ratio. Regardless of the outcome (win lose or draw) the number of them used is the impact on the server, not the number used vs the number dead.
The interpretation of the numbers is flawed, not so much the numbers themselves. Too much importance is being placed on data that doesn't support it.
And of course you will have to add some common sense when interpreting the data.. For example planes with huge bombloads suffer from being used the kamikaze way vs fields, cv's, wirbels (the 14 has no ords)
Free planes with a "1337" tag are attracting newbies (The Spit 14 is not free)
Popular planes with a huge "usage" suffer somewhat from a lower overall skillbase of their pilots (Spit 14 is very rare)
You can also check plane vs plane numbers.. A long term sample shows that the Spit 14 has a hard time vs it's German equivalent in the MA
All of these are the very reasons I listed above as to why kills/deaths do not illustrate the impact of a plane on an arena nor the capability of a plane.
You can't say "you need to use common sense" because the argument isn't based on common sense, rather it's based on numbers. So you're saying "10/5 =2, but we're going to use common sense to tell you what the value of 2 is" -- it doesn't really work that way. 2 is 2. Either it means 2 or you're using the wrong argument.
I'm personally undecided on whether the spit14 should be unperked, but his constant shouting of this flawed argument gets old very quick.
He needs to take a class on research or on writing a thesis paper. He's using incompatible methods and conclusions.
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The impact on the arena isn't told through the kill/death ratio. When there's a fight involving 4 spits, and all of them are spit16s, to me that says a lot more than a kill/death ratio. Regardless of the outcome (win lose or draw) the number of them used is the impact on the server, not the number used vs the number dead.
What an utter nonsense.
1st: What has the server to do with it? It's about game in the arena's, not any impact on the server
2nd: The impact on gameplay can very well be decuded from the numbers. When a planes kills something, it records a kill. If it is killed, it records a death
Now compare the kills&deaths totals to that of other planes. Or do you really want to say there are droves of 14's flying around neither killing nor dying??? (And even if there were.. what impact has a figher that isn't even fighting)
A fighter that has a k/d way above the average, like the Tempest or 262 has obviously a high impact.. it's very dangerous, as far as that arena is concerned
A fighter that has a high total of kills and deaths obviously is used a lot.. but whether that alone is an impakt on arena is further to be examined.
But a fighter that doesn't do very well in killing, nor is being used much at all.... has no negative impact.
Very simple. But again, you may now just cry "is not" without any actual arguments.
Lusche done.
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Krusty,
You continue to somehow not get it. I cannot fathom how you do not see that usage totals and K/D ratios tell us as much as we are going to know about an aircraft's impact.
You argue that it would be unbalancing, and in my thread I even pointed out that was a possible outcome that could only be determined by unperking it and, if it proved to be unbalancing it could simply be reperked.
You, on the otherhand, use no data at all and simply insist ou are right. You do claim my data is not actually data, but you can't explain why it isn't data.
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Karnak, Lusche ... see line 4 of my sig for answers. :aok
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Karnak, Lusche ... see line 4 of my sig for answers. :aok
You clearly don't understand english Bronk. What I have typed (my issue with this argument) is clear-cut and laid out as plainly as can be. He's using a metric wrench on an imperial bolt. The two are incompatible. He's trying to use numbers to gain credibility, then making up illogical interpretations to get the answer he wants. So he's either 1) not understanding what he's doing or 2) deliberately attempting to use numbers to falsely boost his perceived position in the argument, "pulling the wool over" on the general populace.
(from whom he's trying to gain support)
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You clearly don't understand english Bronk. What I have typed (my issue with this argument) is clear-cut and laid out as plainly as can be. He's using a metric wrench on an imperial bolt. The two are incompatible. He's trying to use numbers to gain credibility, then making up illogical interpretations to get the answer he wants. So he's either 1) not understanding what he's doing or 2) deliberately attempting to use numbers to falsely boost his perceived position in the argument, "pulling the wool over" on the general populace.
(from whom he's trying to gain support)
Show me were any of my interpretatinns is "illogical". Step by step! I use data free available to anyone, and try to come to conclusions, step by step.
You are still crying "is not!" and just stompingyour feet with any actual argument. You are even dodging actual discussion.
"deliberately attempting to use numbers to falsely boost his perceived position in the argument, "pulling the wool over" on the general populace."
Unlike you, I have a thesis first, then examine the data, then coming to an opinion. If I find data to support that, fine, If the data contradicts my opinion, my opinion is wrong and has to be changed. I strife for common sense and most important objectivity.
You however, have always a opinion, and you will stick to it even when ave no facts or even clever arguments to support it.
To see you tell people "He needs to take a class on research or on writing a thesis paper. He's using incompatible methods and conclusions." is irony par excellence.
Somehow I seem to have had much luck in university that none of my professors ever told me such thing. Phew!
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Lusche ... have a beer for me. You sir are no pseudointellectual.
<S>
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Lusche ... have a beer for me. You sir are no pseudointellectual.
<S>
Snailman looking for dictionary... must be an insult.. certainly it is... :noid
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You clearly don't understand english Bronk. What I have typed (my issue with this argument) is clear-cut and laid out as plainly as can be. He's using a metric wrench on an imperial bolt. The two are incompatible. He's trying to use numbers to gain credibility, then making up illogical interpretations to get the answer he wants. So he's either 1) not understanding what he's doing or 2) deliberately attempting to use numbers to falsely boost his perceived position in the argument, "pulling the wool over" on the general populace.
(from whom he's trying to gain support)
The hypothethis has been openly stated. The data supporting it has been openly stated. A method to test it has been openly stated. There is no wool other than that over your own eyes.
You claim the numbers are incompatible, but you cannot at all explain how or why they are incompatible. I am sorry, but your insistance that they are incompatible is insuffient evidence of their incompatability.
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...
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Uh... He's using a list of numbers that really don't tell you anything. He's basing his argument on kill/death ratios, which tell you nothing about the plane itself. Only a systematic, exhaustive, research-intensive categorization of every sortie ever flown, how it was flown, how it ended, would clarify what the kill/death means.
And that's as absurd as trying to count the numer of raindrops in the ocean.
He's putting more emphasis on the kill/death than is really there. He bases his entire qualitative conclusion on a flawed sampling of quantitative data. It's a mismatch and he's creating conclusions where the data does not lead.
quote]
He bases his argument in relative terms and on in game data.
Consideration: Not to unbalance the game.
Planes which have a significant in game advantage: 262,Tempest. What they have in common is a high k/d.
The Spit 14 does not share this characteristic and so is unlikely to confer the same advantages as in practice it consderably is less succesfull and less sos than some unperked planes.
(Now if the perk value was removed form the temperst and 262 do you think the K/D would go up or down).
Unbalance the game means confer a significant advantage in such a way that this plane becomes the obvious choice in obtaining good performance in terms of winning fights i.e. K/D. Spell it out and the data is very persuasive.
This is not science but the available evidence on the "balance of Probabilities" suggests it would not unbalance the game to unperk the Spit 14. It is based on inference from real data. Your Evidence is supposition from raw data about speed, weapons and turn rate etc but it is what happens in paractice in the game itself that is important and meaningfull in this context.
Your interpretation of one set of data might lead you to certain theoretical conclussions but you cannot ignore what goes on in practice.
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I don't need no data to say that the spit14 pretty sucks for a perked plane at AH alts....if the factories were more important It wouldn't be true.
EDIT : ok I didn't reread myself, I meant that if the AH factories were more important, the spit14 would be a great tool to protect them.
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I don't need no data to say that the spit14 pretty sucks for a perked plane at AH alts....if the factory were more important It wouldn't be true.
Agreed though I dont know what the last bit means :D
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Agreed though I dont know what the last bit means :D
edited ;)
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If the spit14's perk worthiness is so arguable, HTC should just test it for a few months. That should be enough to have some hard evidence to clear any confusion. If free perk night didn't hurt anyone on the day they added the Me262, a plane that's hard to fly and only arguably perk-worthy isn't going to turn the arenas upside down.
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If the spit14's perk worthiness is so arguable, HTC should just test it for a few months.
Yep I think that should do it. Obviously there would be some initial grumbling as any change will have some effect and it would get used more (by me anyway) but I dont think it will unbalance anything.
Personally as Ive said already I think unperking a plane like the 14 would mean everyone would have a go in the way they do with a new plane. It would therefore bring a bit of extra value to the game with little effort form HTC.
If it started taking over like say I think an unperked Tempest would I would re perk it.
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someone call HTC :D
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someone call HTC :D
Perhaps we should draw straws like in Oliver Twist.
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IF the fights in the MA were all at high alt there would be a case for keeping it perked (maybe).
I don't think unperking it would make one iota of a jot of a difference. The XVI / VIII are far better suited to the low alt MA furballs.
At alts (25k+) where it can really perform there aren't any fights (or very few), you're more likely to run a buff.
On the odd occassions I flew a XIV and ran into a con at high alt they dove for the deck.
Two choices -
1) Stay high and hope for one that doesn't.
2) Follow him down where the XIV becomes just another bit of fodder.
Unperk it, see what happens.
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Lusche: don't be so literal. I meant the arena, the server, I was using the same meaning as you.
He didn't say "unperk it because it sucks" which is subjective opinion, he pulled out numbers, and tried to say "I have conclusively quantified that the spit14 is a far inferior plane than the spit16 because of these numbers, this number is less than that number, therefore the plane itself is less, and should be unperked" and in doing so has fabricated certain assumptions but not bothered to explain them.
Karnak: You have taken the most braod brush available and tried to imply the finest level of detail. You have to go into detail to explain how you are taking into account use of the plane for each sortie the impact of the perk price itself, the type of pilots that fly the 14 (those that are more skilled, die less, etc) and the other aspects of gameplay that will affect use and effectiveness of the kill/death ratio as an indication of its worth as a plane ranking number.
Instead you simply list the kills/deaths, totals, and assume by very very broad margins that these numbers imply a difference in QUALITY of the plane itself.
You do not go into any detail about any of the other aspects that can and do affect these numbers, but instead assume a number is a number, and that your first interpretation must be perfect.
I have second hand experience with quantitative analysis, and I can tell you any number of variables can and will skew your analysis and conclusions at the end, and those that do quantitative analysis (based on polling, raw numbers, etc) must take into respect MANY extraneous variables.
None of which you've even scratched the surface with.
You might as well use numerology, it will be as accurate in reflecting what you want as the way you've done it.
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Krusty,
If you'd actually read my posts you'd have noticed that I did lay all that out. All you seem to be able to see is that I used K/D as one of the supporting pieces of evidence.
You have still failed to give any reason at all for your claims or for why the data I submitted means something else. You haven't offered any hypothesis of your own to match the data.
And I have never said it was far inferior to the Spit XVI. I said it was less suited to the AH MA that the Mk XVI, which it most manifestly is.
What I have said is that it is inferior to other perk planes and is, in fact, not superior to all free planes.
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I would really like a reasoned argument based on the in game data and compared to other perked planes as to why it should be perked.
Until the perk is properly justified surely as a significant Aircraft i.e. around 1000 built it has far more right to fly in the game unperked than say the Ta152.
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It's got nothing to do with that. It's a matter of game balance, not production volume...
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It's got nothing to do with that. It's a matter of game balance, not production volume...
Takes nothing away from the case though either that there is no clear justification for the perk or so it seems.
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P.S. nit-picking one comment I made doesn't negate the rest of the post I made, stating that the spit14 is still 20mph+ faster than the other spits, has hispanos, fast as a p51 (faster above 25k) and is still a monster of a plane.
This reference to the P51 is indicative of the concern I believe that the Spit 14 might replace the 51 in areas where the 51 is a good fighter and hence it is perked to insure the 51 appearsd more in the game.
I think this is unfair to the Spit as in many ways it probably was a better fighter just not a better long range escourt or ground atack plane. Neither the 51 or the 47 had to prove themselves as air superiority fighters/interceptors because of overwhelming numerical superiority. People will still fly them because they like them as they do now not necessarily because they are any good.
I have shot down great sticks in 51's and 47's in low turn fights because they put themselves at such a disadvantage and probably were happy to test and demonstrate their skill in this way. They are the 2 planes I fear least in the game along perhaps with the P38, p40. I think the F4's and F6 better suit the game. I am not sure if this says anything about US WW2 Fighters but I do think the 51,47, and 38 might be particularly vulnerable to the Spit 14. If this is the reason its perked it seems a bit unimpartial a view.
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I was right :rofl
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I always suspected HTC had got the centre of pressure and mass relationship not quite right. No supporting info in pilot comments about ghastly handling, only most didn't like the opposite prop rotation. AH Spit14 has a viscous departure which makes the Ta152 feel like a Jaguar MkII on a summer's evening. :old:
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I was right :rofl
(https://media.tenor.com/D-8FuUp9J4kAAAAM/dude.gif)
I think it might should be perked like it used to be.
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Yeah Spit14 never needed to be perked. What should have replaced it was the la7 and Spit16 though. Far more effective planes and overly used.
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Avoid fighting between 17k and 22k.
Engine has a lot less power than either higher or lower.