Here is a blast form the past

[Lusche]

The ki84 is a monster, despite pilots not taking 2 seconds to learn to fly it. The 109K4 is a monster despite its terrible 30mm trajectory.

The stall-speed handling of the spit14 doesn't remove it from monster-dom 

Its top speed, zoom climb, sustained climb, and overall roll/turn (just not at 100mph) are in the top percent of the game. That and it's got hispanos.

But it suffers (imo) from quite horrible handling.. something it has in common with that wobbly plane they call the Ta 152.
I guess that alone may be the reason for it's puny k/d over the years, despite the fact that the perk price will keep most new players away (unless Spit 16 and the likes)

There is a reason it's maybe the least flown of all perk planes by a huge margin

[Bronk]

Pulling up an old argument that was never proven.

  sure it wasn't.
Still spouting hyperbole I see.

[Noir]

There is a reason it's maybe the least flown of all perk planes by a huge margin

Well its a perk plane that can't run from the P51's & co and can't turn with spit16&co...and it barely outdives a spit16, which will have a better roll rate at speed...dead metal.

[Karnak]

Nothing you say to Krusty on this subject will get through.  We went round and round in my rather verbose and as well researched as is possible for this game, thread about Unperking the Spitfire Mk XIV.

Here are what I think are the relevant statistics.  I listed all the perk fighters because the Spitfire Mk XIV is perked and should be compared in kill/death ratio and usage with its fellow perk fighters.  I selected the unperked fighters by picking high usage, powerful fighters that, with the exception of the La-7, tend to draw more experienced and better players to them.  I think that using this selection of unperked fighters is fair as the people that tend to fly perk planes tend to be at least moderately experienced and to fly in a more conservative manner.  I included both the post-perk Ta152H-1 and pre-perk F4U-1C as a comparison with the Spitfire Mk XIV's current performance.


Late War Tour 96, 1-01-08 to 1-31-08

Perked fighters in order of their kill/death ratios:

Tempest has 6136 Kills of All models and all models have 945 Kills of Tempest. 6.49 to 1 kill/death ratio.

Me 262 has 4103 Kills of All models and all models have 698 Kills of Me 262. 5.88 to 1 kill/death ratio.

Me 163B has 790 Kills of All models and all models have 160 Kills of Me 163B. 4.94 to 1 kill/death ratio.

F4U-1C has 9910 Kills of All models and all models have 3875 Kills of F4U-1C. 2.56 to 1 kill/death ratio.

F4U-4 has 2754 Kills of All models and all models have 1256 Kills of F4U-4. 2.19 to 1 kill/death ratio.

Spitfire Mk XIV has 1454 Kills of All models and all models have 1139 Kills of Spitfire Mk XIV. 1.28 to 1 kill/death ratio.


Unperked fighters with high kill/death ratios and medium to high usage, in order of their kill/death ratios:

Bf 109K-4 has 9344 Kills of All models and all models have 5981 Kills of Bf 109K-4. 1.56 to 1 kill/death ratio.

Typhoon IB has 17053 Kills of All models and all models have 11094 Kills of Typhoon IB. 1.54 to 1 kill/death ratio.

Ta 152H has 2999 Kills of All models and all models have 2042 Kills of Ta 152H. 1.47 to 1 kill/death ratio.

Ki-84-Ia has 9016 Kills of All models and all models have 6224 Kills of Ki-84-Ia. 1.45 to 1 kill/death ratio.

P-38J has 6562 Kills of All models and all models have 4525 Kills of P-38J. 1.45 to 1 kill/death ratio.

Fw 190D-9 has 13943 Kills of All models and all models have 9865 Kills of Fw 190D-9. 1.41 to 1 kill/death ratio.

La-7 has 33201 Kills of All models and all models have 26480 Kills of La-7. 1.25 to 1 kill/death ratio.

F4U-1A has 6568 Kills of All models and all models have 5381 Kills of F4U-1A. 1.22 to 1 kill/death ratio.



Tour 15, 4-01-01 to 4-30-01, the final tour with an unperked F4U-1C:

F4U-1C has 27717 Kills of All models and all models have 20022 Kills of F4U-1C. 1.38 to 1 kill/death ratio.



What do these statistics tell us?  One, the Spitfire Mk XIV has, by far, the lowest kill/death ratio of any perked fighter.  Two, the Spitfire Mk XIV has the lowest usage of any perked fighter save the Me163, and that is limited to one base per country. Three, unique among perk fighters, the Spitfire Mk XIV has a lower kill/death ratio than many unperked fighters. Four, the perked Spitfire Mk XIV has a lower kill/death ratio than the recently unperked Ta152H-1.  Five, the perked Spitfire Mk XIV has a lower kill/death ratio than the unperked F4U-1C did despite the fact that the F4U-1C was at the time, by far, the most popular fighter and was used by more unskilled players than any other fighter.


What do I think an unperked Spitfire Mk XIV would be like?  It would probably see higher usage in Spitfires than any of them other than the Spitfire Mk XVI and Spitfire Mk VIII, though the Spitfire Mk IX might also see heavier usage.  It would probably have the highest kill/death ratio of any Spitfire.  I doubt it would be a popular fighter after the initial "Ooh, it's free!" period had worn off and would instead find a solid place in the second tier of fighters used by more experienced players who can manage the quirks of these fighters.  It does not handle like any other Spitfire and would be offputting to most casual Spitfire users.

I think the Spitfire Mk XIV is a good fighter, but nothing worth spending perk points on.  As such, it should follow the Ta152H-1's example and be unperked.

[Bodhi]

False argument.

Don't waste your time Bronk.  Cubicle Clown Boy is armed with his imagination and that supercedes experience and books anyday.   

I really wish he had a bazillion bucks.  Maybe he'd pay for himself to get his license and if smart enough his type rating in a few of these aircraft that he claims are over modeled in game, atleast some of those that are still around. 

My bet though, is that his arrogance would hurt him badly.

[Noir]

woot here we go again, bodhi vs krusty, didn't the last spit14 thread end the same way ? 

[Kev367th]

Could it be in order to get an unperked XIV HT would have to add a perked F.21 first?

i.e. The highest performing Spit will always get perked irrespective of whether it's suited to the low alt MA or not?

[Angus]

Perked and not perked is one thing.
How many perk points is another.....

[Yarbles]

Yarbles:

Sorry, on re-reading that I can see how it might have seemed to be pointed at you. That was not my intent at all: was just trying to make an outline of how things get done in general. No insult intended~!

Thats ok I know how negative, boring and repetitive this place can seem sometimes. Its easy for ones frustrations to bubble over. 

[Yarbles]

Nothing you say to Krusty on this subject will get through.  We went round and round in my rather verbose and as well researched as is possible for this game, thread about Unperking the Spitfire Mk XIV.

Krusty

When you look at Karnaks well researched and reasoned argument why do you still maintain your position which seems to be based on rhetoric and speculation.

His argument is based on evidence, logic and reason. Yours while valid as a viewpoint has little credibility besides his  

[leitwolf]

I'm all for trying how things play out with an unperked Spit14.

It worked well for the Ta152, and it will most likely work for the Spitfire XIV.
The plane wont be popular with the Spit16 crowd - it might be popular with the K4 crowd - but they get their 'uber' plane for free already and it doesn't swamp the arenas.

Oh, and a Spit 21 (I'd vote for the 22 personally, but this would probably be considered post-war) would be fun. At least that one would be perk material without having to argue about it 

[Yarbles]

I'm all for trying how things play out with an unperked Spit14.

It worked well for the Ta152, and it will most likely work for the Spitfire XIV.

I hope someone from HTC is reading this as I think it would be worth a try for an evaluation period and for me at least would be like introducing a new plane to the game.

 Like a new plane it would be very popular initially and as more people would be killed by 14's go through a period of controversy after which it would settle down along side the other spits probably as second or third most popular. If controversy continues then eventually I would assign it a much lower perk value around that of the Sherman Firefly. I think that highly unlikely as the 16 is probably the best Spit combination of attributes and then the 8 or 14.

This seems like a monor adjustment to the game for a wignificant increase in the available plane stock to choose from.

[Krusty]

Krusty

When you look at Karnaks well researched and reasoned argument why do you still maintain your position which seems to be based on rhetoric and speculation.

His argument is based on evidence, logic and reason. Yours while valid as a viewpoint has little credibility besides his  

Uh... He's using a list of numbers that really don't tell you anything. He's basing his argument on kill/death ratios, which tell you nothing about the plane itself. Only a systematic, exhaustive, research-intensive categorization of every sortie ever flown, how it was flown, how it ended, would clarify what the kill/death means.

And that's as absurd as trying to count the numer of raindrops in the ocean.

He's putting more emphasis on the kill/death than is really there. He bases his entire qualitative conclusion on a flawed sampling of quantitative data. It's a mismatch and he's creating conclusions where the data does not lead.

[Lusche]

Uh... He's using a list of numbers that really don't tell you anything. He's basing his argument on kill/death ratios, which tell you nothing about the plane itself. Only a systematic, exhaustive, research-intensive categorization of every sortie ever flown, how it was flown, how it ended, would clarify what the kill/death means.

And that's as absurd as trying to count the numer of raindrops in the ocean.

He's putting more emphasis on the kill/death than is really there. He bases his entire qualitative conclusion on a flawed sampling of quantitative data. It's a mismatch and he's creating conclusions where the data does not lead.

The quanititative data isnt flawed. It's a very good way to aprehend a plane's impact on the Arenas, which is all the perk status is about. Especially when the sample has a broad base such as all kills / deaths from a whole year.

And of course you will have to add some common sense when interpreting the data.. For example planes with huge bombloads suffer from being used the kamikaze way vs fields, cv's, wirbels (the 14 has no ords)
Free planes with a "1337" tag are attracting newbies (The Spit 14 is not free)
Popular planes with a huge "usage" suffer somewhat from a lower overall skillbase of their pilots (Spit 14 is very rare)
You can also check plane vs plane numbers.. A long term sample shows that the Spit 14 has a hard time vs it's German equivalent in the MA

Even being the cheapest perk plane, the Spit 14 is the rarest one to encounter... no a pretty convincing indicator for an "unbalancing" plane.


For the "they just don't know how to fly it".. thats just an assumption without any base. Undoubtly you can say it for the extremely popular and very capable La7, Spit 16, N1k who actually attract huge numbers of new/unskilled players.. yet they are not perked.

he perk system is a way for HTC to introduce some interesting but otherwise unbalancing planes on a limited basis but the benefits go deeper than that.  Perk planes (and vehicles) would be things like Me 262s, Ta 152s, Tempests, B-29s, Ar 234s, Tiger IIs, etc.  These are interesting rides but would be very unbalancing if they were available on an unlimited basis.  So there won't be unlimited availability but they'll be available as bonuses or perks every so often.

[Krusty]

The quanititative data isnt flawed. It's a very good way to aprehend a plane's impact on the Arenas, which is all the perk status is about. Especially when the sample has a broad base such as all kills / deaths from a whole year.

What about a spit16? This plane can dominate almost every other plane in the game the way it's modeled now. Why is the kill/death so low? Because it's so popular you can get a kill and die instantly. Newbie pilots crash them before getting gear up, or auger from inexperience, or rip the wings off.

The impact on the arena isn't told through the kill/death ratio. When there's a fight involving 4 spits, and all of them are spit16s, to me that says a lot more than a kill/death ratio. Regardless of the outcome (win lose or draw) the number of them used is the impact on the server, not the number used vs the number dead.

The interpretation of the numbers is flawed, not so much the numbers themselves. Too much importance is being placed on data that doesn't support it.

And of course you will have to add some common sense when interpreting the data.. For example planes with huge bombloads suffer from being used the kamikaze way vs fields, cv's, wirbels (the 14 has no ords)
Free planes with a "1337" tag are attracting newbies (The Spit 14 is not free)
Popular planes with a huge "usage" suffer somewhat from a lower overall skillbase of their pilots (Spit 14 is very rare)
You can also check plane vs plane numbers.. A long term sample shows that the Spit 14 has a hard time vs it's German equivalent in the MA

All of these are the very reasons I listed above as to why kills/deaths do not illustrate the impact of a plane on an arena nor the capability of a plane.

You can't say "you need to use common sense" because the argument isn't based on common sense, rather it's based on numbers. So you're saying "10/5 =2, but we're going to use common sense to tell you what the value of 2 is" -- it doesn't really work that way. 2 is 2. Either it means 2 or you're using the wrong argument.

I'm personally undecided on whether the spit14 should be unperked, but his constant shouting of this flawed argument gets old very quick.

He needs to take a class on research or on writing a thesis paper. He's using incompatible methods and conclusions.