Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: bj229r on June 18, 2008, 06:09:43 AM
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http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article4128055.ece
The future of the European Union was tonight clouded in uncertainty after Ireland voted No to the Lisbon Treaty.
Jose Manuel Barroso, European Commission President, and a raft of foreign ministers expressed dismay that Ireland - the only member state to hold a referendum on the matter - chose to reject it decisively by 53.4 per cent to 46.6 per cent.
Amid wild cheers from No campaigners, the results were revealed at 5pm with 862,415 votes against and 752,451 in favour, giving a majority of 109,964 against.
However, the Lisbon Treaty - the reworked successor to the formal constitutional pact dumped by voters in France and the Netherlands in 2005 - officially needs the approval of all 27 EU member states, meaning the way forward for the union is now uncertain.
Not sure how the European members of this bbs feel about this--I must say I AM surprised that Ireland was the ONLY country to actually let the commoners have a say in the disintegration of their autonomy. (And with the incredible surge of the Irish economy following many free-reforms, why would they?)
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the disintegration of their autonomy.
It wasd not the question nor the purpose.
(And with the incredible surge of the Irish economy following many free-reforms, why would they?)
two words : structural fund.
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bj - Ireland's economy is doing well precisely because of the EU. It's not because of independent action on their part, as Straffo points out.
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bj229r...why do you hate the EU?
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do you think that if canada invaded us and wanted us to say eh plus have to speak french (just say non) the EU could come over here save us and give us foriegn aid? it could happen right?
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so none of the other countries got to vote for it? The only one that did turned it down?
lazs
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None of the others needed to vote for it. They are well enough being told what to do.
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The people just put up with that? We should move the UN to over there somewhere.
lazs
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I think one of the reasons Sweden did not get to vote on it is, we would have said NO also.
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bj229r...why do you hate the EU?
Europe would be great if not for all of the Europeans. :P
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Europe would be great if not for all of the Europeans. :P
Naaa... It would just be the middle east.
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Naaa... It would just be the middle east.
:rofl
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Doggone slipknot, you finally posted something that I thought had merit.
:rofl That's going to leave a mark.
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Ireland's economy is doing well precisely because of the EU. It's not because of independent action on their part, as Straffo points out.
what Dowding said,
and Europe is not about disintegration or autonomy,
still alot people dont see the bigger view and are afraid, its understandable though,
alot changed in Europe, fast, just in a few years.
In the end it will pay off for the members, the future will be more & more difficult for the "alone in the dark" players.
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yeah.. you are taking away their right to make a choice for their own good.
lazs
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bj229r...why do you hate the EU?
Thats easy! It's filled with Euros... :aok
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lasz2, its difficult to combine 27 members, its a hard and long way,
(compared to your country with just two other countrys in the north & south ;)
Europe is on a good way, compared to 70 years ago! Better work togheter then against each other.
Imho, most problem lies in the education and misunderstanding the whole thing.
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lasz2, its difficult to combine 27 members, its a hard and long way,
(compared to your country with just two other countrys in the north & south ;)
Europe is on a good way, compared to 70 years ago! Better work togheter then against each other.
Imho, most problem lies in the education and misunderstanding the whole thing.
Our country started out as individual states, we now have 50 in one union. Hasn't always been easy to keep them united and may prove impossible in the future. Who knows?
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ghost.. you did not address the issue. I agree that you should "educate" the POTENTIAL people in the union but simply not giving them any choice at all "for their own good" seems to me to be exactly the kind of thing that makes me hate socialism.
lazs
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yes AKIron good point!, but almost all of our 27 Countrys speak a different language ;) *pweh*
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does the fact that they speak so many different languages negate their right to vote in your opinion?
lazs
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no lasz2, i'm not against their voting, dont misunderstud me, how and why should i?
what i wanted to say is, the people dont know why to vote yes, so whats left is a no.
And the "why" is a education question to understand the whole progress. It maybe takes
more time then people thought.
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the eu was designed for one thing... to stop europe from subsidizing the american economy and offer the world another alternative to american dollar socialism... looks like it's working to.
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the eu was designed for one thing... to stop europe from subsidizing the american economy and offer the world another alternative to american dollar socialism... looks like it's working to.
The fat lady ain't sang, yet.
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One answere could be, Ireland failed to qualify for Euro 2008 Football championship
who is running right now :D
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well... the neocon socialists are trying their best to keep the subsidy going... just look at the empire's hydrocarbon law they're forcing iraq to sign as a good example.
seems they want no part of it either...
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no lasz2, i'm not against their voting, dont misunderstud me, how and why should i?
what i wanted to say is, the people dont know why to vote yes, so whats left is a no.
And the "why" is a education question to understand the whole progress. It maybe takes
more time then people thought.
The people don't know WHY to vote yes? And it will take more time to educate them to know WHY. Why is your WHY superior to their WHY by the way? You sound like a soviet political officer I met who tried to explain why communism was good. Sounded much the same then as you sound now.
Or...... is it the 40-65 year olds who are too smart to be pushed into the EU who will vote NO in all 27 countries? So does more time to educate simply mean waiting for that generation to get old and feeble while you indoctrinate their children and grand children into mindless BORG compliance?
What do the voters in Ireland know that the EU decided the populations of 26 countries were too ""WHY"" stupid to know? On the other hand just follow the Money and Power trail. Napoleon would be proud.
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On the other hand just follow the Money and Power trail.
that's exactly what the irish have done, perhaps all those paddy jokes were not jokes at all :devil
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Does the EU have the option to vote out countries?, Maybe they can make it like Americian idol and have them phone in the vote:)
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bj - Ireland's economy is doing well precisely because of the EU. It's not because of independent action on their part, as Straffo points out.
Yes, I've read that--the feeling seems to be that Ireland 'owes' them. But the biggest reason Ireland is the economic juggernaut NOW, (2nd highest GDP in the EU, after Luxembourg) is their grasp of capitalism, which seems to elude many European countries
http://www.heritage.org/Research/WorldwideFreedom/bg1945.cfm
http://www.heritage.org/index/country.cfm?ID=Ireland
The country has one of the world's most business-friendly environments, especially for investment, and enjoys the European Union's second-highest GDP per capita. In January 2003, the government lowered the corporate tax rate to 12.5 percent—far below the EU average. Because of its pro-business government policies, Ireland receives a substantial portion of U.S. investment directed at the EU
The overall freedom to start, operate, and close a business is strongly protected by Ireland's regulatory environment. Starting a business takes an average of 13 days, compared to the world average of 43 days. Obtaining a business license requires less than the world average of 19 procedures and 234 days
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structural funds
again ...
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structural funds
again ...
Ok Straffo I'll bite: 'splain the concept of 'structural funds'
<note: I think France voted down the first EU version via popular vote?>
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Europe, if you do not study history, you are bound to repeat it.
Study the founding of USA with the Articles of Confederation and US Constitution.
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Didn't Hitler want to "unite" Europe?
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Ok Straffo I'll bite: 'splain the concept of 'structural funds'
<note: I think France voted down the first EU version via popular vote?>
Your country is piss poor ,it's infrastructure is poor and so on the structural funds (alimented by all EU countries) will give you money
it was the case for Ireland
concerning france vote it was so politicized the main question was never discussed !
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Yep - same for Spain. It now has one of the best high speed rail networks in Europe, paid for by... the EU.
I don't mind this, despite the fact Britain has a crap rail network and we are one of the biggest contributors to the EU pot. By improving European infrastructure, we gain synergy and strengthen our economic position in the world. Note I said 'economic' - the EU does not need to be a super-state.
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The irish will be assimilated! Resistance is futile! We are the EU.
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Your country is piss poor ,it's infrastructure is poor and so on the structural funds (alimented by all EU countries) will give you money
it was the case for Ireland
concerning france vote it was so politicized the main question was never discussed !
That's because every time we have a 'highway' bill, hundreds of billions get spent on everything BUT highways :mad:I'd agree about our infrastructure, I'd disagree about the country in general--we have the fattest, most tv-adorned poor people in the history of the world!
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yep ghost.. it all comes down to that you feel that the people are too stupid to be allowed to vote and.. that socialism is utopia.. it has just never been done right before.. that with enough indocrtinization... er.. "education" people will see it your way... or be crushed!
Seems the good people of Ireland are doing fine without you guys.
lazs
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they are doing fine BECAUSE of us.
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Give up Straffo. Some people simply refuse to grasp your point.
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That the Celtic Tiger gobbles up structural funds to build economic muscle and then uses the Treat of Lisbon as a litter box?
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Dowding,
Straffo hasn't been very clear in what he is alluding to. Perhaps if he actually made a cogent statement and explained what he has so far failed to state clearly it might be something to consider.
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What Straffo is saying is that the EU gave Ireland a Shirtload of free money in the form of structural funds. Now Ireland doesn't want to ratify Lisbon.
He's saying the free EU money is responsible for much of Ireland's success.
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Ding! Ding! Ding! We have a winner!
The EU needs to slow down if you ask me. Drop any more expansionist plans and any ideas of closer political ties. As for an EU army - perhaps certain member states could actually live up to their NATO obligations first? All I see in Afghanistan are US and UK troops fighting - the other nations seem to prefer logisitical duties behind the lines. Once the sovereign states of Europe can guarantee that an embarassment such as Bosnia could never happen again (waiting for US help to solve European problems), then there should be further moves towards closer ties. This issue with Ireland is just highlighting that the EU is largely a game of 'smash and grab' - not the basis for a sound partnership just yet.
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If people/countries could be made self-sufficient and successful just by GIVING them money, the 6 or 7 TRILLION the US has spent on the 'war on poverty' begun in 1965 would have eliminated such in our country--Ireland was helped out a LOT by Europe, but they applied radical (well, radical for Europe) free-market reforms, actually made themselves FRIENDLY to corporations who wished to set up shop there, and turned around generations of population exodus of Ireland's best and brightest. Put yourself in their shoes: Look at the robust economy of Ireland, THEN look at double-digit unemployment of Europe, endless labor strikes, 35 hour work-weeks, laws that actually preVENT you from firing incompetent sloths---what is to be gained for Ireland by joining the EU? (Being mindful that they have a bit of a history of NOT liking remote rulers :confused:)
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If people/countries could be made self-sufficient and successful just by GIVING them money, the 6 or 7 TRILLION the US has spent on the 'war on poverty' begun in 1965 would have eliminated such in our country--Ireland was helped out a LOT by Europe, but they applied radical (well, radical for Europe) free-market reforms, actually made themselves FRIENDLY to corporations who wished to set up shop there, and turned around generations of population exodus of Ireland's best and brightest. Put yourself in their shoes: Look at the robust economy of Ireland, THEN look at double-digit unemployment of Europe, endless labor strikes, 35 hour work-weeks, laws that actually preVENT you from firing incompetent sloths---what is to be gained for Ireland by joining the EU? (Being mindful that they have a bit of a history of NOT liking remote rulers :confused:)
While I can agree with many of your points you should be aware that the referendum was not about Ireland joining the EU - Ireland is already part of the EU and has been for a while (and has benefitted tremendously from EU funding). The referendum was about ratification of the Lisbon Treaty which centralizes power in the Eu and weakens the power of individual nation states. The Lisbon Treaty is in effect the new EU constitution (that was rejected by referendums in France and Denmark) reborn.
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If people/countries could be made self-sufficient and successful just by GIVING them money, the 6 or 7 TRILLION the US has spent on the 'war on poverty' begun in 1965 would have eliminated such in our country--Ireland was helped out a LOT by Europe, but they applied radical (well, radical for Europe) free-market reforms, actually made themselves FRIENDLY to corporations who wished to set up shop there, and turned around generations of population exodus of Ireland's best and brightest. Put yourself in their shoes: Look at the robust economy of Ireland, THEN look at double-digit unemployment of Europe, endless labor strikes, 35 hour work-weeks, laws that actually preVENT you from firing incompetent sloths---what is to be gained for Ireland by joining the EU? (Being mindful that they have a bit of a history of NOT liking remote rulers :confused:)
you summed it : they got all they can from EU and set up a corporate friendly environment because their other expenses where paid by EU.
That's cheating in my book.
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I'm gonna look into that (how much) when I can get access to high speed today, but if Ireland can create a business-friendly environment which improves the WHOLE country, why can't others?
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We can if Ireland help us.
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if Ireland can create a business-friendly environment which improves the WHOLE country, why can't others?
From 1984 to 1992, the EU gave Ireland subsidies of 4 - 5.5% of GDP per year. The US currently raises 2.7% of GDP in federal corporation taxes. If someone were to give the US grants of about 5% of GDP, the US could afford to get rid of corporate taxes all together, and still have about $300 billion left over.
As to why other countries in Europe can't do the same, one disadvantage many of them have is that far from being net recipients of EU money, they have to make contributions. Somebody has to pay for Ireland and Spain and others to have all that free money.
There's no doubt Ireland used the money they were being given wisely, but it's much easier to cut tax rates when foreign governments are pouring money in to your treasury.
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Nashwan just nailed it, as usual.
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Thats all fine but did the money have strings attached to it? In other words.. we will give you money but in the end you will have to get rid of your autonomy and subject yourself to rule from abroad. From other countries.
It is one thing to give aid... it is quite another to then expect to be ruled by the people who gave you money to help you out.
If you want to have a united states of europe then just do it... get everyone together.. have a new constitution that covers all the countries and elect a ruler.
If you want it to be an economic union only then says so. Elect a board and then give out loans with a contract attached. If a country won't accept the contract then don't give em the money. If they do accept the money then hold em to the contract.
lazs
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If someone were to give the US grants of about 5% of GDP, the US could afford to get rid of corporate taxes all together, and still have about $300 billion left over.
well... being able to print the world's reserve currency for nothing is the same thing as free money.
the fraud allows them to escape the gravity of fair economics... as they can run twin deficits and at the same time lower taxes and the citizens don't feel the pain... the fraud works as long as other countries are generous enough to buy up the empire's debt in the form of t-bills.
also... by forcing other hardworking countries to hold these dollars as a reserve currency and then by systematically devaluing the currency by 10% a year is simple an imperial tax in the form of exporting inflation.
that's why the eu and the euro were formed... to stop subsidizing the empire's free lunch... and it looks like it is working.
when you subsidize something you just get more of it...
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Wonder what happens if we start to sell oil in euros. There are talks of this if the dollar does not recover. It could go both ways actually.