Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Money on June 21, 2008, 07:25:50 PM
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I have been looking around for a post or explanation for why planes of certain values are unavailable during specific times in the game. I find it annoying with my limited flight time to be subject to flying planes I hate flying. I'm sure it is to force balance in some strange way, but I would like to know exactly how it works if possible.
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I have been looking around for a post or explanation for why planes of certain values are unavailable during specific times in the game.
It's a penalty that kicks in when one side has a clear numerical superiority to the side with the lowest player numbers. It's based on relative strengths, that is your sides % of players in arnena players compared to lowest country %.
It's not meant to completely balance gameplay, but of course it's an incentive to switch sides and even out numbers a bit.
If you don't want to switch countries for what ever reason, you should display some flexibitly in plane choice. Many ENY 15-25 planes are almost as good as lower ENY ones. Many of the favourite low ENY planes do even have a high ENY variant Spit 16 -> Spit 9, La7 -> La5, P15D -> P-51B
A few popular complaints:
Eny sucks, it doesn't succeed to even the numbers !
- It's not meant to do that. It's just a penalty
Eny sucks. This is war, and war isn't fair!
- It's not a war. It's a game.
Eny sucks. It's always against us, when the others have that more players, they don't get ENY.
- That's what every country claims. It's not true, ENY limiter is the same for every country. But you usually do not notice your enemy's ENY limit, or you don't get the difference between absolute and relative numbers ;)
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As you stated, the variants are so close, why impose a penalty? A favorite plane is just that, a favorite. I argue that changing planes does not need to be forced any more.
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As you stated, the variants are so close, why impose a penalty? A favorite plane is just that, a favorite. I argue that changing planes does not need to be forced any more.
They are close.. not the same.
ENY is there for a reason... it came out of the experience from a time where there was none. It's still necessary because players are still the same, trying get every possible advantage, that is both superior numbers AND superior planes at the same time.
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and then the arena resets and all is even again... again... and again... It will take care of itself if left alone.
The use of ENY was valuable when the plane sets were so limited. They aren't now and imposing that penalty does much less good today.
BTW, thank you much for the other links and feedback!
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Bottom line ... it's not going away ... so one has learn to live with.
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Still say the problem isn't ENY per se, but rather planes ENY values.
They are all over the place.
Would suggest they all need re-doing from scratch.
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Time to start flying a new plane if your so worried about ENY - fact is its not going away, and if your going to cry everytime you cant fly your dweeb16 then its either time to find a new game or fly the spit 8 in its place untill eny settlers - or simply switch arenas where you don't have a horde.
I have always flown a 109 and never had to worry about ENY just because I like fact my bird is higher eny and never have to worry about switching.
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ENY is part of the whole reason I got to enjoying the P-40E so much , or the F4U1 , or others . Its IMO a good thing to play in different rides and so many have different models to choose from . ENY is there period so we live with it . For example gas at $4.67 a gallon here in California I hate it but live with it . I don't like how it was imposed on us but there is not allot I can do about it .
Nutte :devil
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Nothing is stopping you from switching sides. ENY won't let you fly your favourite plane? It will if you switch countries.
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I agree MoneyMan. It's time to retire ENY penalties. Yes AH is a game. But it is supposed to reflect WAR, not some perpetual "even handed" contest. In fact, If you want to compare AH to other games and sports, I can't think of a single one where a referee penalizes the winning side for winning, or to make the game last longer. Can you ? This is an idea pretty unique to AH in the game universe.
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Don't worry though MoneyMan. I don't think you're going to see this ENY penalty feature carried over into Combat Tour. It would make even less sense there.
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I don't think you thought very deeply about your analogy. It's about equipment, not just referees or umpires. Are some teams allowed more players than the other teams? Are some players allowed more advanced equipment than other players?
Added: there are well-thought out reasons for the way the game is. It is not arbitrary. Someone with your limited experience here might be better reading more and advising less, waldron.
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I agree MoneyMan. It's time to retire ENY penalties. Yes AH is a game. But it is supposed to reflect WAR, not some perpetual "even handed" contest. In fact, If you want to compare AH to other games and sports, I can't think of a single one where a referee penalizes the winning side for winning, or to make the game last longer. Can you ? This is an idea pretty unique to AH in the game universe.
This shows a complete lack of understanding of the game. Thats right, it is a game, and games are meant to be fair for all teams involved. In those sports you mentioned, one team doesn't have more players than the other ...right ?? The eny limits are in place to level the playing ground just a bit so the game can be fun for everyone. If you don't like it, switch countries, or arenas. The eny limits are not going anywhere.
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I agree MoneyMan. It's time to retire ENY penalties. Yes AH is a game. But it is supposed to reflect WAR, not some perpetual "even handed" contest. In fact, If you want to compare AH to other games and sports, I can't think of a single one where a referee penalizes the winning side for winning, or to make the game last longer. Can you ? This is an idea pretty unique to AH in the game universe.
But what sport allows you to field more players than the other team?
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But what sport allows you to field more players than the other team?
PWNT! :D
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Stephen, Money, look at it this way.....
Your country is out numbered by both of the other countries 2 to 1. There is no ENY, because thats the way you want it :D You are now being attacked from both sides because the rush is on to see which other country is going to wipe out your country for the "Win the war types". Not only are you out numbered on both fronts, you getting pinned down by LA7s, P38s with a ton of ord, as well as ponies and tiffys. Sounds like a fun evening ahead for ya right? Now picture that going on for weeks on end (which it did in the old days, where one country was ALWAYS at the mercy of the other two)
WOuld you still fly? would it still be fun? Or would you cancel your subscription like many did back then? Which way do you think makes better business sense, the old way with out ENY, or the new?
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I agree MoneyMan. It's time to retire ENY penalties. Yes AH is a game. But it is supposed to reflect WAR, not some perpetual "even handed" contest. In fact, If you want to compare AH to other games and sports, I can't think of a single one where a referee penalizes the winning side for winning, or to make the game last longer. Can you ? This is an idea pretty unique to AH in the game universe.
I would like you to see you sneak and extra guy onto the football field, or on the soccer field, or on the hockey rink, or on the basketball court, or in your batting line up, so you can "win" the game ... you will be penalized in some form for trying to "win".
In each of these games, the rules are set to establish an "equal" playing ground so that the best skilled team, of the 2, should win. Seeing as there is currently no "absolute" way to even the AH playing ground, those teams with a numbers advantage must suffer the ENY penalty so as to bring some sort of "equality", thru equipment, to the game.
In theory ... "Winning the Warz" in this game ... should really only be accomplished by "skill" as opposed to a "numbers" advantage.
Waldron ... it appears, from just about every one of your post on this BBS, that you are always more concerned about making things "easier" in this game rather than take the time and make the investment in building "skill".
In this thread ... the difference between Money and Waldron ...
Money doesn't know the reasons, knows that he doesn't know the reasons, and asks ... why ?
Waldron doesn't know the reasons, thinks he knows all the reasons, and never asks ... why ?
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Stephen, Money, look at it this way.....
Your country is out numbered by both of the other countries 2 to 1. There is no ENY, because thats the way you want it :D You are now being attacked from both sides because the rush is on to see which other country is going to wipe out your country for the "Win the war types". Not only are you out numbered on both fronts, you getting pinned down by LA7s, P38s with a ton of ord, as well as ponies and tiffys. Sounds like a fun evening ahead for ya right? Now picture that going on for weeks on end (which it did in the old days, where one country was ALWAYS at the mercy of the other two)
WOuld you still fly? would it still be fun? Or would you cancel your subscription like many did back then? Which way do you think makes better business sense, the old way with out ENY, or the new?
To be fair the 90% of your country and 40% of each other country rule probably did more to slow that down than ENY restrictions. Back then you just had to get one country down to 2 or 3 bases to win the war and, yes, it was a race to see who could pound the small guys first :D
I sort of liked being the underdog in those days though. It seemed like I had more fun the nights we were being pounded from both sides than when we were one of the pounders.
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I agree MoneyMan. It's time to retire ENY penalties. Yes AH is a game. But it is supposed to reflect WAR, not some perpetual "even handed" contest. In fact, If you want to compare AH to other games and sports, I can't think of a single one where a referee penalizes the winning side for winning, or to make the game last longer. Can you ? This is an idea pretty unique to AH in the game universe.
The Bish/Knights got what they wanted. They "penalized themselves". BTW, I rarely fly a plane under 20.0 these days. I'm never affected by it, so I just fly the way I want.
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In fact, If you want to compare AH to other games and sports, I can't think of a single one where a referee penalizes the winning side for winning, or to make the game last longer. Can you ?
Pro wrestling and, to a lesser degree, NASCAR come to mind.
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Pro wrestling and, to a lesser degree, NASCAR come to mind.
Is Pro wrestling actually a sport?
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The NBA. ;)
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ENY is part of the whole reason I got to enjoying the P-40E so much , or the F4U1 , or others . Its IMO a good thing to play in different rides and so many have different models to choose from . ENY is there period so we live with it . For example gas at $4.67 a gallon here in California I hate it but live with it . I don't like how it was imposed on us but there is not allot I can do about it .
Nutte :devil
I simply have a problem paying money to play a quality game and then being forced to fly a plane I tried years ago and disliked. There is a reason after 10 years of flight sims I have developed a preference for the planes I fly. Besides, I argue that eny does little to nothing to slow down the "win the war types". Those wanting to "win the war", up 110's/mossies, a few fighters with canon, and a goon and run NOE missions all night long. Plane values do not stop that! What has stopped it is PLAYERS CHOOSING to change sides to take on the horde and/or destroying ordinance on perimeter enemy bases.
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Time to start flying a new plane if your so worried about ENY - fact is its not going away, and if your going to cry everytime you cant fly your dweeb16 then its either time to find a new game or fly the spit 8 in its place untill eny settlers - or simply switch arenas where you don't have a horde.
Since when did posting to a forum = crying? If it does, please stop crying at my cry! :rolleyes:
I have always flown a 109 and never had to worry about ENY just because I like fact my bird is higher eny and never have to worry about switching.
Good for you? I haven't, thus the reason for my question and statement. It does NOT have the effect it once had.
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I agree MoneyMan. It's time to retire ENY penalties. Yes AH is a game. But it is supposed to reflect WAR, not some perpetual "even handed" contest. In fact, If you want to compare AH to other games and sports, I can't think of a single one where a referee penalizes the winning side for winning, or to make the game last longer. Can you ? This is an idea pretty unique to AH in the game universe.
I appreciate the support but this isn't helping me make my point :-)
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Good for you? I haven't, thus the reason for my question and statement. It does NOT have the effect it once had.
Not the effect it once had? It never had a different effect than it has today...
And the win-teh-war NOE hordes are pretty quick handicapped - among first planes to be blocked are the N1k (extremely popular in NOE missions) Typhoon and 110G.
And if your biggest loyalty in game is tied to one specific plane (which one btw?), you can easily switch sides. Switch times have been lowered to make this easier than in the past.
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Not the effect it once had? It never had a different effect than it has today...
That's my point, in its day it was needed. There were limited GV options, plane variants, strat, etc. in the past that made it necessary to eny planes to "control" the arena. That effect is not needed today because the arena game is different.
And the win-teh-war NOE hordes are pretty quick handicapped - among first planes to be blocked are the N1k (extremely popular in NOE missions) Typhoon and 110G.
The "win the war" argument was used by some in this thread as the reason eny is important. You agree then that plane set does nothing to control it in today's arena?
And if your biggest loyalty in game is tied to one specific plane (which one btw?), you can easily switch sides. Switch times have been lowered to make this easier than in the past.
Spits because I have loved them as far back as I can remember. Almost every WWII aviation image/model I saw as a child included. Before there was a XVI option (my favorite btw), it was the IX. I was called a spit dweeb in AW, when I started here, and now. One thing has remained constant and that is the 38 pilots hate dying to any version spit and they don't have to worry that the strongest version of the 38 is unavailable because on eny. Imagine the whines when l33t 38 drivers can't fly the version they want because it is eny'd. :-)
I also learned to love the corsair ever since an old AWer name Rocketman took the time to teach me how to fly it. Not to mention its historical impact in naval/air combat. F4U-D
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That's my point, in its day it was needed. There were limited GV options, plane variants, strat, etc. in the past that made it necessary to eny planes to "control" the arena. That effect is not needed today because the arena game is different.
Maybe I was wording it wrong.. I meant it once had the very same effect than today and is still needed because of the very same reasons. They might even have intensified with arena splits - hording is getting easier with different arenas to choose from. Getting horded here? Don't worry, your country has the number sin another arena. And the EW & MW are very often very lopsided in numbers.
Spits because I have loved them as far back as I can remember. Almost every WWII aviation image/model I saw as a child included. Before there was a XVI option (my favorite btw), it was the IX. I was called a spit dweeb in AW, when I started here, and now. One thing has remained constant and that is the 38 pilots hate dying to any version spit and they don't have to worry that the strongest version of the 38 is unavailable because on eny. Imagine the whines when l33t 38 drivers can't fly the version they want because it is eny'd. :-)
I also learned to love the corsair ever since an old AWer name Rocketman took the time to teach me how to fly it. Not to mention its historical impact in naval/air combat. F4U-D
First, there's nothing wrong with flying Spits. :)
Most part of the time you will be able to fly XIV and XVI, occasionally you would have to fall back to the VIII (8) (which is almost identical to XVI in terms of speed, climb, turn radius), and not being able to fly a Spit IX (20) or V (25) should be very very rare. And at that point (ENY worse than 20) you would spend more time "fighting" your countrymen to get that lone enemy before they do ;)
(And the "mediocre" ENY 20 Spit IX still eats P-38's... but don't tell the SAPP guys I told you that :noid )
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(And the "mediocre" ENY 20 Spit IX still eats P-38's... but don't tell the SAPP guys I told you that :noid )
Lusche, I would think you of all people would have checked the stats before making a statement like that !
At the time of this post, the P38J has 144 kills of spit 9s, and the spit 9 only has 87 kills of P38J's. :D
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Why not just switch? From what you say, everything is secondary to flying what you want.
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I stoped flying the spit9 its too uber and forgiving...gives wrong reflexes.
At the time of this post, the P38J has 144 kills of spit 9s, and the spit 9 only has 87 kills of P38J's. :D
I guess I'll have to fly it again, need to fix those stats :P
ENY is doing a pretty good job I think, when your country is down to the Ju88 as main bomber and 190F8 as attacker, capturing is turning into a men sport)
Note that when you can't choose the best planes, the other country are most likely buying 262 for 50 perks :P
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Lusche, I would think you of all people would have checked the stats before making a statement like that !
At the time of this post, the P38J has 144 kills of spit 9s, and the spit 9 only has 87 kills of P38J's. :D
I always said "Perk the P38!".
Would be finally a way to use alll that accumulated bomber perks... :P
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Lusche, I would think you of all people would have checked the stats before making a statement like that !
At the time of this post, the P38J has 144 kills of spit 9s, and the spit 9 only has 87 kills of P38J's. :D
Yes but numbers can almost always mean almost anything. A beginning to medicre pilot is much more likely to choose to fly (and subsequently die) in a spit 9 than he is in a '38J, so I suspect that the K/D ratio comparison is badly skewed.
Disclaimer - Pointing this fact out is not meant to be construed as agreement or disagreement on my part with any of the rest of the discussion in this thread! As things are, I generally like the idea of ENY, even though it's not perfect. I wish someone more clever than I am would come up with a way to implement it in some localized fashion that would work reasonably well.
<S>
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I'm a fan of the ENY idea as well, although I'm open to concepts that might improve it. One idea I did give some thought to was the approach of extending the perk point concept to do the same thing that ENY does now. We already have a variable perk point cost for certain planes, so why not extend that to cover more of the plane set? Rather than a hard cut-off point the way the current ENY works, you would just see other planes start to cost perk points to fly as the sides get unbalanced. If you really want to fly a certain plane, then you just pay the perk points. There are a few challenges to this idea, of course. Pilots with vast perk point balances, the need to always have "free" rides, the usual perk point imbalance issues, and so on.
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Yes AH is a game. But it is supposed to reflect WAR, not some perpetual "even handed" contest.
Working together is not penalized. We are not trying to implement a system where consentrating your forces is hampered.
But it realy is a basic game concepts that all sides have the same number of players. If you don't belive that concept, please sight one case where a game is not designed with that in mind. And please do not tell me AH is war, because it is not, it is a War game. And games are ment to be fun and fair. While war is not ment to be either fair or fun.
HiTech
This is a false assumption.
The game was designed to have fun at different types of combat. Conquering bases is just a means to promote combat and hence fun. But by no means is it more or less justified than going out and just mixing it up.
HiTech
"F4U-4's simply because they were winning the war."
It is these type of statements that always make the get rid of ENY crowd loose credibility with me.
Note, nothing about winning or loosing is in the value calculating system. Only how many people you have on your team.
And if anyone things they should be able to have an advantage in number of players on there team with out any other handicap. Then they are blind to basic game play principles of any type.
2nd if anyone else tells me they have a 70 member squad, I think I will just eject them. There is no such thing as a 70 person squad in AH.
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Yes but numbers can almost always mean almost anything. A beginning to medicre pilot is much more likely to choose to fly (and subsequently die) in a spit 9 than he is in a '38J, so I suspect that the K/D ratio comparison is badly skewed.
.....or it could have been quoted not to prove a point, but as a joke to tweak Lusche's nose, who is ever ready with the stats. :D
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.....or it could have been quoted not to prove a point, but as a joke to tweak Lusche's nose, who is ever ready with the stats. :D
And of course I have a interesting graph at hand on this matter too:
(http://img115.imageshack.us/img115/2108/jokeli1.jpg)
j/k :D
<S> Fugitive!
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You know it's serious when the Pie Charts are coming out. :D
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You know it's serious when the Pie Charts are coming out. :D
Heck ! I'm doing better than I thought ! :rock
Thanks for digging that one up Lusche !