Aces High Bulletin Board
Special Events Forums => Friday Squad Operations => Topic started by: Stoney on June 22, 2008, 10:54:47 PM
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Gents, introducing next month's FSO. Its not how it actually happened, but it could have...
June, 1945...
The problems for the Allies started early in America's involvement in the war. Succumbing to the pressures of Stalin, President Roosevelt departed from the advice of Churchill and supported an invasion of France at the earliest opportunity. In early 1942, the date was set, and plans and preparations were begun for invasion of France in the fall of 1943. What were unforeseen at the time were the losses suffered by the U.S. Navy at Midway and later in the Solomons. Mostly due to perceived poor leadership through the losses of 1942, Roosevelt lost the presidential election of 1942. President Joseph Kennedy was sworn in in January 1943, and promised a decidedly different strategy to win the war. Gone was the "Germany first, Japan second" strategy espoused by Roosevelt. Stating that the Japanese menace was the primary threat to the country, President Kennedy began to concentrate U.S. power towards the Pacific. After the Japanese invaded Australia with massed landings of troops at Darwin in late 1942 and early 1943, many of the resources intended for the invasion of France were diverted to the Pacific. Roosevelt’s plans for Lend Lease were scrapped, with all available assets focused on winning the war in the Pacific.
Meanwhile on the Eastern Front, with the Nazi's southern and western flanks secure, the Germans were able to consolidate their positions in the Urals, and fought the Russians to a stalemate.
Late 1944...In England, things began to look very grim. The Eight Air Force bombing campaign was stopped due to massive losses caused by the resurgent Luftwaffe. Daily battles were fought in the air over the English Channel with heavy losses for both sides. While the defense of Britain was never in doubt, offensive options for the Allies in Western Europe narrowed quickly. As the American campaign in the Pacific culminated, new American B-29's were being readied to be flown from bases in Ireland, Scotland, and Iceland. New long-range fighters that were designed to fight in the Pacific were trickling in to the European theater.
Hitler saw that the American juggernaut was soon to achieve victory against Japan, but sensed an opportunity to capitalize upon Allied war-weariness and possibly achieve a separate peace with Britain and the U.S. that left its European conquests intact. With President Kennedy stepping up political pressure against Britain, Hitler felt the time was ripe to begin a strategic air offensive that would force the Allies hand. His tool, an increasingly experienced Luftwaffe, flying the latest technologies from German industry.
The second Battle of Britain was about to begin...
Frame 1: 11 July, 2008
Frame 2: 18 July, 2008
Frame 3: 25 July, 2008
Scoring:
Objective based scoring will be used. 50% of each frame's score will be for air-to-air kills, with the remaining 50% being divided between 4 air-to-ground objectives each frame. Each air-to-ground objective will be worth a total of 12.5 points. Objective scores will be based on victory criteria that will be published in each frames objectives.
Air-to-Air
Air-to-air score will be worth 50 potential points each frame. The total number of aircraft that lift for each side will be tallied and added together using their respective point totals. That number is the total aircraft potential for each side. All single engined piston fighters will be worth 1 point. All Me-262's will be worth 2 points. Ar-234's will be worth 2.5 points. This scoring means that the Allies could potentially achieve greater than 50 points for total air-to-air kills. For example, if 100 German aircraft lift, 60 German aircraft are shot down, and 20 of those kills were Me-262's, it would equal 80 points. To reach the percentage score, the total points scored will be divided by total aircraft lifted. So, in this case, the allies would divide 80 by 100, for a percentage score of 80%. Then, .8 would be multiplied by 50 to reach a final air-to-air point total for the Allies of 40. If we use the same example, but 50 of those aircraft are Me-262's that are shot down, the Allies would score 110 points, which when divided by 100 would equal 110%. That percentage times 50 would give the Allies 55 air-to-air points.
Air-to-Ground
Air-to-ground score will be worth 50 potential points each frame. Each of the 4 target objectives will be worth 12.5 points to either side. The Allies and Germans will be awarded points based on victory conditions listed in each frame’s objectives. Target objectives will consist of strategic targets only. Each objective will have its own victory conditions that will define who receives points, and for what destruction criteria. Both sides will have an equal potential to score the same points for each objective.
Plane Set:
German
Me-262 (64 maximum)
Ar-234 (64 maximum, formations enabled)
Bf-109K4
Fw-190D9
Ta-152 (64 maximum)
Allied
Tempest (64 maximum)
Spit 14 (64 maximum)
P-51D
P-47N (64 maximum)
Spit 16
Special Rules:
Manual calibration will be used for bombers
Arena Settings:
--BoB Map
--Fuel Burn 1.0
--Icons Short
--.3 Ack
--Fighter and Bomber Warning Range 52,800 (10 miles)
--Tower Range 52,800 (10 Miles, To Match Warning Range)
--Visibility 17 Miles
--Wind speed will vary with altitude
--Radar Off
--Enemy Collisions On
--Friendly Collisions Off
--Killshooter Off
--Takeoff time per weekly objectives
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64 Me-262s? I think that 64 262s may be tipping the scale a tad to much, in DGS we only had 2 262's a frame and that made an immense diffrence. Mabey only have a Maximum of only 32 262s?
Just a thought....
The event looks like a ton of fun either way though. :D
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64 Me-262s? I think that 64 262s may be tipping the scale a tad to much, in DGS we only had 2 262's a frame and that made an immense diffrence. Mabey only have a Maximum of only 32 262s?
Just a thought....
The event looks like a ton of fun either way though. :D
Let the games begin... :D
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64 Me-262s? I think that 64 262s may be tipping the scale a tad to much, in DGS we only had 2 262's a frame and that made an immense diffrence. Mabey only have a Maximum of only 32 262s?
Just a thought....
The event looks like a ton of fun either way though. :D
A couple of things to keep in mind, 262's are not the easiest plane to fly offensively. They must be flown a very specific way, and they require above average skill to be effective in a fighter to fighter engagement. The only thing that is easy to do with them is RUN. :D
A 262 can be dominant, but not all pilots can be dominant in them.
I am not going to give any secrets, but the spit 14 and tempest can kick the 262's butt, in the correct situation.
This is going to be a HOOT!!!
:aok
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Disregarding the fact I believe the 262 should be taken out of the game PERIOD, the Ar-234s are going to be another big problem to deal with as well. Allied fighters will basically have one pass and the bombers will be past and out of range.
I'll give you that it's hard to judge what's going to happen when this is actually played out, but on PAPER it looks like a gross mismatch in favor of the Axis.
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That's because it is a mis match.
If 200 axis players show up, yuo're still lookin gat over half the axis pilots flying Jets.
Then again, my understanding was that the FSO events were not designed to be fair, but to tell a story of (what if.)
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Well the allies have long legs fast airplanes, and can cross the channel to hunt down the LW. It should be interesting to say the least.
Valkyrie
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Then again, my understanding was that the FSO events were not designed to be fair, but to tell a story of (what if.)
The idea is to be fun for both sides, and I don't think having to deal with ONE cherry-picking 262 in the Main Arena is fun. If there's a 262 in the area I go find a different fight. Having to dodge an entire SQUADRON of them and not being able to go somewhere else does not strike me as a swell time.
My $0.02
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A couple of things to keep in mind, 262's are not the easiest plane to fly offensively. They must be flown a very specific way, and they require above average skill to be effective in a fighter to fighter engagement. The only thing that is easy to do with them is RUN. :D
A 262 can be dominant, but not all pilots can be dominant in them.
I am not going to give any secrets, but the spit 14 and tempest can kick the 262's butt, in the correct situation.
This is going to be a HOOT!!!
:aok
:aok
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A couple of things to keep in mind, 262's are not the easiest plane to fly offensively. They must be flown a very specific way, and they require above average skill to be effective in a fighter to fighter engagement. The only thing that is easy to do with them is RUN. :D
A 262 can be dominant, but not all pilots can be dominant in them.
I am not going to give any secrets, but the spit 14 and tempest can kick the 262's butt, in the correct situation.
This is going to be a HOOT!!!
:aok
Couple this with the fact that 234's are not easy to bomb in, either.
Unless your "dead-nuts" accurate with calibration, you'll be mowing the lawn.
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The idea is to be fun for both sides, and I don't think having to deal with ONE cherry-picking 262 in the Main Arena is fun. If there's a 262 in the area I go find a different fight. Having to dodge an entire SQUADRON of them and not being able to go somewhere else does not strike me as a swell time.
My $0.02
Imagine if the Allies did this in '44. :O
:lol Why so down on the Schwalbe Sax? The a/c saw extensive action in the war. I think you really hit the nail on the head there without knowing it. There won't be MA style 262 picking. The nature of the operation is not favorable or conducive to such. Squadron sized 262 flights will be just that. Multi ship flights with objectives to see through.
Well flown Allied late war killers, in squadron size will be more than a match for all but the most experienced Schwalbe pilots. I'm stoked to see a set up like this. It's rare, like GV's, and weather, and CV battles...
Have fun.
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That's because it is a mis match.
If 200 axis players show up, yuo're still lookin gat over half the axis pilots flying Jets.
Then again, my understanding was that the FSO events were not designed to be fair, but to tell a story of (what if.)
I'd say allies win this one in a walk....
The Arado's best performance is at under 20K, the 262 is pretty pitiful at higher alts as well. Recognizing that alot of the score will be based on 2 variables.....german bombing success and attrition of the german jets I see the following. The Allied spit 14's and 47N's are going to have enough alt & speed to hit the arados awful hard and the 262's/152's cant stop that. The total lack of meaningful defensive fire will mean very few attackers lost to bombers. The Engines on both the 262 and Arado are very vulnerable, I'd venture that 50% of the 262's and 75% of the Arados are on one engine on eggress....if the allies establish a good picket line very few of the jets will successfully RTB.
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Well I'm not the guy with a crystal ball, (I have two :D) but sure this will be a lot of fun for both sides!
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Give the Allies more Temps and Spit 14s to counter 262s? :noid
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Give the Allies more Temps and Spit 14s to counter 262s? :noid
You mean, to ensure allied victory? :noid
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Give the Allies more Temps and Spit 14s to counter 262s? :noid
The Tempest is a very marginal bird here since its got short legs and poor performance at alt. It's best role would be in hunting returning araddo's and 262's and capping the RTB fields. FSO is a completely different enviornment then the MA. The P47N and spit14 should shine here...
The simple reality is that the luftwaffe wasnt really set up for this type of operation. The 262 doesnt have long legs and is a marginal performer at 30,000. The Arado is not a high altitude bomber and is vulnerable. It's going to be very hard for the arado's to get ords on target...I think the 262 losses will be very high...
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Humble,
I agree a Tempest is a dog above 20k and above 25k is just absolutly horrible compared to its low alt performance. Above 30K I am going to be more concerned with 152s than 262s.....specially if moot is in one. :eek:
Strip
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Gentlemen and Ladies,
As I observe your comments and concerns in regards to what will be a battle of epic proportions. I will simple state that this FSO will push the CiCs ability to properly plan and be successful to his/her limits. Good luck to both sides. :salute
Cheers :aok
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...
Then again, my understanding was that the FSO events were not designed to be fair, but to tell a story of (what if.)
The point values and scoring of a "historical" event can take this in to account. For example:
It is decided to simulate a well-known rout: Pearl Harbor on Dec. 7 1941. To give it some balance, if the IJN can "only" duplicate the historical outcome, it is scored as a draw. If the IJN can do more damage than was done in RL, the score tips in their favor. If the USA & USN hurt the IJN more or preserve more ships than they did in RL, then they get the nod. Obviously, it is more complicated when you play with hypothetical "events" like this planned FSO, because you have to anticipate the true balance of forces and what the outcome would have been.
See also: http://greenwings.hp-parrots.de/EMCSPEC/DesigningHistoricalScenarios.htm (http://greenwings.hp-parrots.de/EMCSPEC/DesigningHistoricalScenarios.htm)
Anyway, kudos to the FSO staff for - once again - trying something new. :salute
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Bino,
A better "Alternate Reality" setup for Pearl Harbor would be to play out one of the scenarios where the Americans actually took notice of the advanced warnings, and Pearl Harbor turned into an all-out fleet and air battle
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That's because it is a mis match.
If 200 axis players show up, yuo're still lookin gat over half the axis pilots flying Jets.
Then again, my understanding was that the FSO events were not designed to be fair, but to tell a story of (what if.)
To be a little more specific, this is a story of "what if".
I do believe that most FSO's are designed to be fair. but really it's as much about the pilot as it is the plane.
my .02
4XTCH
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For the last 2 frames of the last FSO our night was ended by vulchers. :cry Thought we would have learned after the first time but some have moved to MA tactics to get kills. The next few weeks sounds like a blast but I would request that a return line be made similar to the BOB to prevent the 262's from going on vulching runs. I find the 262's are actually fun to fight when in 51D's and can be easily had if you get them turning some.
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New long-range fighters that were designed to fight in the Pacific were trickling in to the European theater.
How is this true with no F4U4 in the lineup?
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How is this true with no F4U4 in the lineup?
The F4U-4 was not a "long-range fighter intended for the Pacific". It was merely an upgraded Corsair. The P-47N was specifically designed for long-range escort of B-29's. If, in the case of my fictional scenario, the B-29 was to operate from much longer ranges over Europe, the P-47N was transferred to provide escort.
Don't read too much into this, please. For the most part, aside from a total reversal of some of the fortunes of war that occurred historically, this is a fairly plausible setup, even if totally fictional.
:aok
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Actually this set up reminds me alot of one we flew a while back, but the name escapes me at the moment.
Edit: Now I remember the name it was Arado Ar234 "Blitz" by Nomde I believe.
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I do believe that most FSO's are designed to be fair. but really it's as much about the pilot as it is the plane.
I think this event is going to tax pilot skill, squad cohesiveness AND, if not the most important, CiC planning!
4X is right, events are designed to be somewhat fair. As of late, I have seen these hardworking Admin's design events where planning on the side of the CiC and squad communication are paramount for victory.
All in all, this is going to be a lot of fun. See you guys on the flight line!
:aok
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The Spit14 and Tempests will do just fine vs the Me262 and Ar234. The 234 inst the fasted when flying w/ its ords and the Me262 needs exeprience and skill to be flown dangerously, otherwise it is just a 480mph Typhoon.
I look for this to be a good time! :aok
btw... I call dibs on a Spit14. :D
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For the last 2 frames of the last FSO our night was ended by vulchers. :cry Thought we would have learned after the first time but some have moved to MA tactics to get kills. The next few weeks sounds like a blast but I would request that a return line be made similar to the BOB to prevent the 262's from going on vulching runs. I find the 262's are actually fun to fight when in 51D's and can be easily had if you get them turning some.
Actually "vulching is a very real part of war, many german 262's were lost while trying to RTB. This is one of the major drawbackes for the axis CiC to ponder. While his offensive mission is clear, he has to provide a cohesive defense to recover his assets. I'd bet more then a few arado's and 262s go down on final...
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Maybe spread the 262s around to all squads to be used mostly as scout or local fast acting reserve flights! 262s en mass would be terror :t
64 Me-262s? I think that 64 262s may be tipping the scale a tad to much, in DGS we only had 2 262's a frame and that made an immense diffrence. Mabey only have a Maximum of only 32 262s?
Just a thought....
The event looks like a ton of fun either way though. :D
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Maybe spread the 262s around to all squads to be used mostly as scout or local fast acting reserve flights! 262s en mass would be terror :t
I believe the French had the same thought in 1940, but with Tanks. Didn't work out too well for them either.
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I believe the French had the same thought in 1940, but with Tanks. Didn't work out too well for them either.
:rofl
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As a steady temp pilot (not a good one by any means), I have gone up against numerous 262's from all diferent angles. I think you are giving the spit14 and temps to much credit here. As long as the jets don't start turn fighting, you get maybe 1 to 2 turns with them at best. Then the acceleration factor kicks in and it's forget it. Granted most don't know how to specifically fight the 262, but with most trying catch the arados, it doesn't take much for a pack of jets to swoop and shoot. Will be interesting, for sure, but the 14's and the temps doing 450-500 tryin to catch the arados, it isn't that easy to just move aside from a couple of bnz 262's.
And yes, we are requesting allied. Will be extremely interesting.
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Actually "vulching is a very real part of war, many german 262's were lost while trying to RTB. This is one of the major drawbackes for the axis CiC to ponder. While his offensive mission is clear, he has to provide a cohesive defense to recover his assets. I'd bet more then a few arado's and 262s go down on final...
While this may be true in history, it is something that may or may not be a good addition to have in the FSO. It would pay me to stay out past end of frame time to hit as many returnees trying to get down before the time limit is up. It's really not to hard to figuire out, that close to frame end on where returnees will be landing. If I kill 2, that well makes up for the my plane lost from not landing. If 3 of us stay out, and keep 4 or 5 up dodging past frame end, it still pays. It is happening, happened last frame with some opponents having no real concern on landing and getting as many kills as they could before frame end. We have left fights or past up nmy cons in the past FSO's many times because time is down to minimal and had to press hard to get landed.
Is it valid, sure, is this mentality something we need in mission orientated event.... that would be something the community would have to answer.
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While this may be true in history, it is something that may or may not be a good addition to have in the FSO...It is happening, happened last frame with some opponents having no real concern on landing and getting as many kills as they could before frame end...Is it valid, sure, is this mentality something we need in mission orientated event.... that would be something the community would have to answer.
I'll save the community from having to answer for this. Vulching in its strict sense is not tolerated within this FSO, i.e. strafing planes on the runway. Within my power to glean information regarding such conduct from the logs and player film, kills garnered on the runway will not be scored. That being said, there is nothing wrong with the Allies, in this case, using the tactic of trying to intercept enemy aircraft over enemy territory using anticipatory screens, etc. That being said, the Allied CIC's shall not hold aircraft in reserve for this purpose, but merely use this type of tactic as the opportunity presents itself later in the frame. All aircraft for both sides must be dedicated towards the completion of any of the 8 objectives assigned to each side for all 3 frames.
If I have not made myself crystal clear to anyone, let me know via PM and I will reinforce this policy in terms that you can better comprehend.
Last, I will adjust the rules in the weekly objectives to provide incentives for folks to successfully RTB without creating undue pressure on myself through an extrememly complex and time consuming nut-roll during my scoring.
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My intent is not to encourage vulching but the simple reality is that the 262's required a fighter screen for both takeoff and landing. While the takeoff is protected the landing isnt. How is this any different then the fights over A1 in every of the 3 current frames. The P-39's didnt have the legs to sustain combat operation for the full frame and both times we rearmed it was on a contested field. An artifical "safe line" eliminates the axis CiC responsibility to recover his assets. The P-51's and P-47's have the capability to stay up the entire frame, the german planes do not. While the allies will certainly struggle with the speed of the arados the germans will have there own issues protecting there fields. Certainly at least one allied goal will/should be eliminating any 262's and arado's that get dinged up. While the 262's certainly will control the fight they are in they will be very vulnerable to flights of higher ponies and jug's entering the fight as well as 30K flights over the egress points and landing area's...
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Just the observations of an outsider so feel free to ignore them :)
I don't care how you sugercoat it with 'well flown' Temps, etc, the jets are going to be able to operate at will. If you assume 'well flown' Temps and XIVs, you must assume "well flown' 262s and 234s.
Bearkats was right in using th DGS experience. 2 262s made a huge difference and were untouchable unless the pilot made a mistake.
Stampf states that 262s were used extensively during the war. I think that's a stretch when you compare them to the 'extensive' use of the 109, 51 or whatever.
Remember that the 262 didn't tip the balance because it never was there in effective numbers. Had it been, the airwar would have been a different ball game.
Also remember that the Temps and XIVs along with the 51s patrolled the jet airfields and spent a lot of time 'rat catching' or trying to get them low and slow at their bases or low fuel.
Just as an aside, it appears you've thrown the entire Ta152 production run into the fight too short of a couple :)
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ctually "vulching is a very real part of war, many german 262's were lost while trying to RTB.
We even have a Snapshot based on this. http://ahevents.org/western-european-theatre/the-man-who-downed-nowotny.html
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Just the observations of an outsider so feel free to ignore them :)
I don't care how you sugercoat it with 'well flown' Temps, etc, the jets are going to be able to operate at will. If you assume 'well flown' Temps and XIVs, you must assume "well flown' 262s and 234s.
Bearkats was right in using th DGS experience. 2 262s made a huge difference and were untouchable unless the pilot made a mistake.
Stampf states that 262s were used extensively during the war. I think that's a stretch when you compare them to the 'extensive' use of the 109, 51 or whatever.
Remember that the 262 didn't tip the balance because it never was there in effective numbers. Had it been, the airwar would have been a different ball game.
Also remember that the Temps and XIVs along with the 51s patrolled the jet airfields and spent a lot of time 'rat catching' or trying to get them low and slow at their bases or low fuel.
Just as an aside, it appears you've thrown the entire Ta152 production run into the fight too short of a couple :)
Please don't take me wrong - I am new to the FSO's and I really appreciate all you guys that work and plan the FSO's - I think they are the "Big Leagues" of the sim flying in AH. However with that said I am going to have to agree with Guppy here - a couple of 262's can tie up a whole squadron of prop fighters - the number of jets allocated is "kinda" historically a stretch and will completely dominate the sky - even when they are flown by an average skilled pilot.
Historically, the Allies knew they couldn't match these planes in the skies so they "blanketed" every field they knew of to catch the jets landing or on the ground being serviced. It was a legitimate mission for them.
I am pretty new to FSO's so I don't want to come across as a "Know-All" but over the years I flown the jets in several LW squads in the CT/AVA and I know what they will do. So if the number of the jets isn't lowered or the Allied CO isn't allowed the tactic of catching the jets on the field you have pretty much tied the Allies hands and handed the win over to the Axis side IMHO.
My $.02 - take it for what it is worth.
:salute
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This scenario is clearly designed ahistorically, so any and all historical reference you can throw out the window.
Now... with that in mind, would it be safe to assume that the allies would not have the airpower to contend the LW over France? Just like the LW did not contend with the allied air power outside of Germany in late '44 to '45? Because clearly, in this scenario, Germany hold the upper hand much like the allies did in DGS where LW fighters were not allowed to pursue beyond a certain point. So the question is, who is on the offense, who is on defense?
Just pointing at these reasons, as to why not allow allies cross the channel. For the same reasons in the BoB scenarios essentially, and for the same reasons the LW are not allowed to pursue in 44-45 scenarios.
It's up to the staff to decide, it certainly would be a challenge for axis if the allies would pursue to home bases. I would not mind either way. It's just that allies seem to protest as soon as they're not favored, because the allies won the war, they expect to win. Luftwaffe sticks are used to being the underdog, sometimes we win regardless. My advice is, suck it up and have some fun. It's what we do most of the time.
Bottom line is, whatever the staff decide on, it will be fun regardless. Whichever side wins, it will be fun regardless. :aok
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You guys should reduce the 262 numbers. Fortunately you'll have the first frame to give you hard evidence to adapt from. The only counter balance to 64x262s I see is the Spit16s.. and that's only if the 3 64-max allied planes are filled and outweighed by at least as many spit16s.
Will be fun anyway.
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It's up to the staff to decide, it certainly would be a challenge for axis if the allies would pursue to home bases. I would not mind either way. It's just that allies seem to protest as soon as they're not favored, because the allies won the war, they expect to win. Luftwaffe sticks are used to being the underdog, sometimes we win regardless. My advice is, suck it up and have some fun. It's what we do most of the time.
Bottom line is, whatever the staff decide on, it will be fun regardless. Whichever side wins, it will be fun regardless.
:aok
The idea for this event started with me. Stoney took that idea and made it his own, and I like what he has done.
Too many 262's? Maybe, we will have to see. The numbers could be lowered for frames 2 and 3.
But you guys need to remember the intention here. We WANT this to be tough on the Allies. We want them to be at a (slight to moderate) disadvantage. This "what if " event is about a Britain that is on it's heels in 1945, and is still defending it's skies from more and more German attacks. Involving more advanced fighters. In this event the German industry is in good condition, they are producing many high performance AC that are now flying over Britain. The British are having trouble dealing with it. But fortunately for them (with help from America) they also are able to produce high performance AC to meet them.
Now the short coming to all of this. If this situation had played out, I firmly believe that the Germans would be using a different group of AC. Ones that were never made. The German AC that we fly in AH were designed to attack and quickly destroy large bombers, not fighters. Yes, 30mm's will rip a fighters wing off with one shell, but the makers of the Rhine Metal Borsik (sp) MK108 cannon, were making a weapon that would destroy large AC quickly with minimal hits. It is a low velocity hard hitting explosive shell. It has poor range, and is difficult to use against small fast AC, as well as not being known for its long range effectiveness.
With these and other facts, I am not convinced the Germans are going to dominate the skies. we will see.
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Yeah the 152 isn't what it could have been. The MK103 also could have showed up more commonly, etc. It'll be a fun scenario without a doubt, though.
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You guys should reduce the 262 numbers. Fortunately you'll have the first frame to give you hard evidence to adapt from. The only counter balance to 64x262s I see is the Spit16s.. and that's only if the 3 64-max allied planes are filled and outweighed by at least as many spit16s.
Will be fun anyway.
So are you suggesting that the Axis will completely dominate in kills and score?
Care to make it interesting? :D
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Maybe with such fast planes and large numbers, ease up some on the +60 rule to give the planners some more room?
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My tuppence 'orth:
Dominant plane in this one = P47N
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Maybe with such fast planes and large numbers, ease up some on the +60 rule to give the planners some more room?
I have to agree, in as much that on first reading the rules and set up, that a lot of Allied players are gonna scream fits... Much like they are now. And that will put a damper on the number of Allied players for this FSO :o
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My tuppence 'orth:
Dominant plane in this one = P47N
I'd be curious as to your reasoning?
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My tuppence 'orth:
Dominant plane in this one = P47N
You must have been driving a different one than I was. :rolleyes: Unless you are flying on the edge of SPACE the 47N isn't anything but a TUGBOAT.
If I had to fly a Jugg think I would prefer the D-25.
:salute
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I never said the Allies couldn't cross the Channel, I just stated that I didn't want to see folks strafing 262's on the runway. You catch 'em on final, that's one thing--shooting them while they taxi is another.
Second, there will be ample time for the Ar-234's to get to their objectives within T+60. A fully loaded Ar-234 is capable of a 6.5 mile/minute speed at 10,000 feet. At just under 17,000 feet, they can go even faster, approaching 7 miles a minute. That means you're covering a sector in 3-4 minutes. With a climb and form up thrown in, there's absolutely no reason why they couldn't fly at least 250 miles and be over the target by T+60.
As always, if a portion of the setup creates an imbalance, I will adjust for frames 2 and 3. If there's too many 262's, we'll lower the number. Regardless, appreciate the discussion and look forward to an exciting event.
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Just in case ... looks like this might be needed. :D
(http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm162/jonjdoe/allergy.jpg)
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I just stated that I didn't want to see folks strafing 262's on the runway. You catch 'em on final, that's one thing--shooting them while they taxi is another.
I'd do the same thing the Allies did in WWII; I'd put roving fighter around the area of the 262 bases to prevent them from getting into the air. The Germans knew this and protected their 262 squadrons with 109s and 190s and often some of the biggest air battles of that period of the war were centered around these airfields.
My questions are;
Why would you want to eliminate the Allies really only chance of catching a 262 that isn't a complete fool?
Why would you want to eliminate those great air battles around those 262 airfields?
Are you going to limit the 262s/Ar234s to 1 or 2 fields, and are you going to allow them to hotpad anywhere?
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Alright then, in order to get enough allied players, take away some of our 262s (maybe cut the # in half) and allow the allies to pursue to their home bases. We'd still kick your behinds.
[/sarcasm]
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So are you suggesting that the Axis will completely dominate in kills and score?
Care to make it interesting? :D
I wouldn't bet on either.. On paper (i.e. with perfectly disciplined players in them), 64 jets can probably single-handedly disrupt any plan the allies come up with, if they're in the right place at the right time. That's the only thing I'd guess at.. We'll see in a few weeks.
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Okay, first off I'm NOT a big fan of this what-if scenario. I don't like these kinds of things.
That said, folks are SERIOUSLY over-reacting to the effectiveness of a 262.
"I don't care how you sugercoat it with 'well flown' Temps, etc, the jets are going to be able to operate at will. If you assume 'well flown' Temps and XIVs, you must assume "well flown' 262s and 234s."
"64 jets can probably single-handedly disrupt any plan the allies come up with"
Not likely in the least.
It doesn't matter how WELL the plane is flown, it won't be effective. The only advantage the 262 has (if well flown) is that it can't be shot down. That doesn't mean it will ever finish its objective, that it will ever get any kills, ever have air superiority. It just means it can disengage (if flown properly) and run away.
That's not even assuming it can land safely without being vulched.
I've been flying 262s more in the past few months. When dogfighting in them, you need a target that is already engaged with others. Even the slightest evasives will spoil your shot if the 262 is at high speed (which it needs to be) and even a minor miscalculation can lead to the target craft getting a snapshot on you as you whiz past. Couple that with the very bad ballistics of the Mk103 cannons and you have to get in CLOSE for a point-blank kill (not something the 262 can do most times).
This is at low alts. At alt it's even worse. I fought 3x p51ds in the MA last night at 20-25k. All the P51s would do is HO me and all I could do is miles-wide gentle turns or else they'd close to within "kill range" (d800) whereas I was well out of range at d400. The plane is a frakkin' PIG at this alt. It cannot reach 30k. I've tried in the MA and in past FSOs. It cannot fly that high in practical flight, let alone combat.
Squad-v-squad is different than 1-v-1 sure, but the overall performance handicaps of the 262 means that having 64 of them is going to hurt the axis more than the allies, simply because that's 64 planes that CAN'T get the job done, whereas slower planes COULD get it done. Squad-v-squad you're going to get a lot of 6k extensions, because at 25k you need at least 5k to do a high-G-180 turn, and then BARELY line up in time for your enemy to whiz past you (you barely have time to HO in essence).
For everyone freaking out about the 262, I see they are all doing so from the allied perspective. I tell you what, if I were the axis CO I'd be freaking out even worse!
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Viewing this from an FSO perspective I think its allies in walk...
The arado's will take tremendous losses unless they have a great plan and can "sneak" them in. The use of manual calibration will make a solid "IP run" manditory...with no defensive fire (of merit) the arado's are going to be sitting ducks to 30k formations of P-47N's and ponies...
The turbines seem exceptionaly fragile and I can see literally 100% of the arados having some type of engine problems by the time they are finished the inward run/IP run...no question the jets (both types) will be able to exit the immediate combat zone relatively easily but the turbines sieze very quickly and I'd venture that very few will actually RTB (alot can/will ditch) if they get crippled. With the shorter icon range the 262's will be less detectable then in a "MA" enviorment but the flip side is they will get bounced alot more. I think at 30K the 47's will be very dangerous to a co-alt 262...with the bomber stream lower and the assumed allied objectives as well the 262's will be engaging in the 10-20k alt range and very vulnerable IMO to higher flights of jugs and ponies...
I'm also curious about overspeeding issues in the 262's, IMO its a lot easier to lock up a 262/bust parts then it is a jug or pony....I think the 262's will also out lawn dart the allies...as SLED mentioned the axis doesnt really have the tools for the job.
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Predicting 100% loss rate on Arados, and 100% loss rate for 262s if they engage in a fight.
Outside of bomber hunting they are useless. Even with bomber hunting missions, all it takes is a single con 1k behind them to keep them from turning back to make another pass at bombers, as well.
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VF-6 Kämpfer Schwadron can't wait :)
<<S>>
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I'd be curious as to your reasoning?
It's based on the assumption that they will be used up high.
First let's deal with the 262 bogeyman.
I've had the dubious pleasure of leading a squad of 262s in FSO in the past. Once you are forced to fight above 25k it's less fight than flight. If your engagements are above 30k with a spit 14 or a p47n you are simply unable to fight them. You have practically no rate of climb, your turn radius is huge and if you try and dive away you start to lock up quick. Wings come off if you pull hard. To get 262s out of the way, just send a bunch of p51s or jugs up to 35k and have them dive in. The 262 can just bore big holes straight ahead in the sky up there. If it turns or slows it's dead. It can dive away at a shallow angle but then it has to get back up somehow. If it zooms, a 450 mph piston fighter picks it off. If it extends it takes sectors and sectors to first climb to, then catch the bunch it was after. Problem is when it does catch them it's back where it was being forced to dive away again by a diving prop plane. It's not DGS where the buffs were made to stay 24k or lower and together in a slow moving group. Its opposing all single engine planes this time.
A P47N can do what, maybe 460+ above 30k? Up there it can turn. It can climb. It can really dive and if it wants to, zoom. A Spit14 might be nearly as good but the jug possibly has the edge.
Now of course there will be ground attack requirement for both sides and the allies will have to use jabos. If the jug is used as a jabo then it won't shine. Used as a high level escort it will.
The planeset indicated for this FSO indicates that quite some thought about altitude is in order. The worst performers up high will be the arado, tempest and Spit 16. There's no reason to put them up there other than to protect them. If they are traveling up high then the Allies do gather to themselves an advantage.
I believe that CICs will have to think hard about the packages that they put together and how they can use the complementary abilities of the planeset they are bequeathed. How they reach, attack and defend targets will be well outside the MA "norm". For example: How do you escort bombers that are faster than the escort?
I smile at the idea of a group of 60 262s offensively sweeping over a target. What good will they do in such a sweep if there is a bunch of P47s sitting at 35k above it? Would those jugs be able to defend that target up there? Maybe. No reason for them to come down until jabos or bombers come through and then they will come down fast. Timing and nerve would be tested. Fascinating possibilities in Ta512 and P47 fights above 30k for alternative sweeps.
Would be interesting to see the 262 used in the "blitz bomber" role. Of course here they can only use their cannon but quite valid to use 262 in ground attack. (Bomb rule?) That would get the cap down fast and would make for a really really absorbing battle. They would just have to hope there wasn't a whole bunch of spit 16s down low and a group of P47s up high. That's what a well thought out sweep would do wouldn't it? Remove that sort of squeeze?
Planes attacking Axis targets won't be terribly vulnerable to 262s. I can't see a flight of Tempests at say 20 k being too afraid of 262s if they have an escort of p47n's at 30k. Doras and 109Ks might make them nervous though.
So many wonderful possibilities, but in all of them P47Ns up high look to be an Axis nightmare from this far out.
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Apparently I should have clarified in the write-up, but the Allies will be defending each frame. Each side will have 4 ground objectives and 4 fighter sweep objectives. Only the Germans will have offensive ground targets. For the Allies, the ground objectives are defensive.
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Apparently I should have clarified in the write-up, but the Allies will be defending each frame. Each side will have 4 ground objectives and 4 fighter sweep objectives. Only the Germans will have offensive ground targets. For the Allies, the ground objectives are defensive.
Crystal clear! :aok
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I never said the Allies couldn't cross the Channel, I just stated that I didn't want to see folks strafing 262's on the runway. You catch 'em on final, that's one thing--shooting them while they taxi is another.
I think something got switched around. The problem isn't the 262's getting vulched, it's the 262's vulching with 5 minutes left and having enough time to get home with their high speed. Whether actually on the ground or on final approach, the 262's will have easy kills available (not giving axis ideas, just pointing out potential problem :salute)
I have no problem with the number of 262's, but I'd vote that they have to be past the center of the channel at End of game -5 or some other point depending on placement of bases.
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I somehow get the sense that you've never flown a 262 in this game.
That's not at all likely to EVER happen the way you describe. 262s would most likely all get shot down by ack or by the fighters trying to land before getting any vulches in.
Even a single .50cal ping near the engine will spill your oil. With only 1 engine the 262 is slower than most piston planes.
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Right, that's the armchair eval. Let's wait and see.
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Even a single .50cal ping near the engine will spill your oil. With only 1 engine the 262 is slower than most piston planes.
Substitute a .30cal and you've pretty much described the engine on the Corsair. :rolleyes:
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This should prove to be exciting. I am excited to get back into FSO with my old Squad, the 412th is returning to FSO!
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I somehow get the sense that you've never flown a 262 in this game.
That's not at all likely to EVER happen the way you describe. 262s would most likely all get shot down by ack or by the fighters trying to land before getting any vulches in.
Even a single .50cal ping near the engine will spill your oil. With only 1 engine the 262 is slower than most piston planes.
You're right I don't have 262 experience. I'll sleep much better now though knowing that I'll have ack and 50 cals of landing planes protecting me. :noid
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I am a bit amazed about all this worry about vulching. Couple simple rules:
Don't rearm at a base under attack.
Don't rearm at a base that is a designated target for attack.
Plan more than 3 minutes ahead when looking for a place to land and tower out.
I am simply astonished at the number of times I have seen large formations of aircraft rearming at a target field while it is under attack. Saw it again at a CV last week. Like some guy is going to circle in his TBM or Kate waiting for the cap to up again so he can he bomb it?
Those with long memories might remember a TOD we had once where the commander insisted his fighters spawn and wait on the ground for 10 minutes. Nearest enemy field was < than 10 minutes away. Short event that night for a whole lot of stunned people.
Back to topic:
If Allies don't have a ground attack mission - I reckon give the Axis 128 262s. They'll need them.
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Judging by this discussion it will be an outstanding FSO. Frame One will be especially tense.
Keepin my fingers crossed for a good ride in Frame One. :pray
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This has been amusing. The P-47 flat out owns above 26k, which above there is where they are going to be camped out. Combine this with the insane fuel we are going to load, and great gun ballistics is going to be hell for the 262. I think this is going to be a landslide in the allied favor. The kind of pilots I have seen in 262s means they are going get frustrated turn otherwise do something stupid and are going to either die or head home with engines out. I think the Arados are going to be meat on the table for anything that will have alt on them.
So in the end the allies are going to lose very few aircraft, the ones that get bored and stop looking around. The Germans are going to lose those Arados (who could hit anything to begin with) and are going to lose a fair number of 262s. Not to mention those 152s which are so unstable in roll and yaw that they couldn’t shoot to save their lives. Anyone want to argue the outcome of this?
Vlkyrie1 <S>
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UP THE IRONS! :devil
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I am glad I came up with this idea........ this is going to be a BLAST!!!
:D
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I think that 262s should only be able to up from certain bases that the allies know about and can cover. Also the high alt spit and p-47 fights will be amazing fun.
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I am glad I came up with this idea........ this is going to be a BLAST!!!
:D
All Hail Sled.
There will be smoke in the air, terror in the skies and gnashing of teeth.
(as the whining has already begun) :t
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I think that 262s should only be able to up from certain bases that the allies know about and can cover. Also the high alt spit and p-47 fights will be amazing fun.
You might think so, but not really.
They're not that much fun. Usually the higher aircraft (allied) hold all the cards. 190ds as modeled in this game are simply DOGMEAT to all but early P-47s, where they are fought to a stalemate. We've seen this in many past high-alt FSOs before. The only plane that can compete with allies at alt is the 109K-4 and to a lesser extent the 109G-14, but both of these are limited in alt and manuverability at alt. A P-47 and P-51 can make a nice gentle turn at 30k+ but at 30k a 109 can't even bank without losing 500fpm. Any fight will have to be dragged DOWN before it can be fought, which gives the allies all the cards, bouncing from above, choosing when to attack, when to disengage, flying circles around the LW planes in-game.
Let's face it, there's just no fair setup for super-late-war rides in this game. It's too lopsided IMO.
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The only plane that can compete with allies at alt is the 109K-4 and to a lesser extent the 109G-14, but both of these are limited in alt and manuverability at alt.
Ta152.
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Ta152.
Get some, MOOT!!!!!!!!!!!!! :rock
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m00t in a Ta152.
Fixed :D
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Fixed :D
Yup, theres a 152 and then theres a 152M :eek:
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Yup, theres a 152 and then theres a 152M :eek:
I think that is what Moot flies to work very day. :noid
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The 152 is a fair plane at alt, but I've gone up against 47Ns and 51Ds over 25k with it, and it's really not much for dogfighting that high up. It would be able to jockey for bounce alt, but once the enemy is found the fight still needs to descend to proceed normally.
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The 152 is a fair plane at alt, but I've gone up against 47Ns and 51Ds over 25k with it, and it's really not much for dogfighting that high up. It would be able to jockey for bounce alt, but once the enemy is found the fight still needs to descend to proceed normally.
Imho, then you don't know how to fly the 152, it's not a dogfighter at all, not at hight alt anyway. There is something called E fighting. :D
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The 152 is a fair plane at alt, but I've gone up against 47Ns and 51Ds over 25k with it, and it's really not much for dogfighting that high up. It would be able to jockey for bounce alt, but once the enemy is found the fight still needs to descend to proceed normally.
I bumped into Lute one time in the MA, with me in a 47N and he in a 152. We merged at about 20k, and the fight progressed up over a few minutes, neither one of us blowing our energy for a shot. After about 5 minutes, we were above 25k and still climbing. Finally, at about 28k, I managed to close to about 1,000 meters on his low 6, but out of WEP from the maneuvering, and slow, around 200 IAS. He was able to accelerate away.
Flown properly, the 152 is more than a handful for a 47N at those altitudes. Nothing "dogfights" at 30K, not even a 47N.
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Yeah, that's kind of what I was saying, your last line I mean.
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Imho, then you don't know how to fly the 152, it's not a dogfighter at all, not at hight alt anyway. There is something called E fighting. :D
Why dont you got a few rounds with krusty some time before you comment. While there is no question that moot is an exceptional stick (in more then just the 152) Krusty can fly a bit. As others have said all fighting from about 25K up is really E fighting...
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Why dont you got a few rounds with krusty some time before you comment. While there is no question that moot is an exceptional stick (in more then just the 152) Krusty can fly a bit. As others have said all fighting from about 25K up is really E fighting...
This thread is hilarious.
Snap, I like Krusty and while we often disagree on things, we keep it civil. What he types gets him in trouble, nothing more. This is not the venue for suggesting duels based on this topic. I don't think anyone needs to duel someone in order to "comment" , do you? Moot, while totally lethal, is not the only TA ace in game. Vortex is massivley talented in the TA sir. Massively. Very few pilots in AH would last more than a few minutes with him at alt. But that is not the question here. You seem to be gunning for Vortex lately, on many different threads. Maybe I am wrong about that. I do hope so, as being a close freind to the man, I can tell ya he is a poilished act.
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Why dont you got a few rounds with krusty some time before you comment. While there is no question that moot is an exceptional stick (in more then just the 152) Krusty can fly a bit. As others have said all fighting from about 25K up is really E fighting...
Well, I didn't critisize his flying but let me suggest that he actually think before posting something suggesting that the Ta152 can't fight at high alt, which is what it was totally designed for.
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You might think so, but not really.
They're not that much fun. Usually the higher aircraft (allied) hold all the cards. 190ds as modeled in this game are simply DOGMEAT to all but early P-47s, where they are fought to a stalemate. We've seen this in many past high-alt FSOs before. The only plane that can compete with allies at alt is the 109K-4 and to a lesser extent the 109G-14, but both of these are limited in alt and manuverability at alt. A P-47 and P-51 can make a nice gentle turn at 30k+ but at 30k a 109 can't even bank without losing 500fpm. Any fight will have to be dragged DOWN before it can be fought, which gives the allies all the cards, bouncing from above, choosing when to attack, when to disengage, flying circles around the LW planes in-game.
Let's face it, there's just no fair setup for super-late-war rides in this game. It's too lopsided IMO.
Let me guess, you didn't fly in Der Grosse Schlag did you?
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vortex, I did say it was decent at alt.
It is probably the only ride that can jockey for bounce-alt like the US planes, but still once there that's the best it can do. I've actually tried fights from 25k+ in the 152 (with various planes, some p-47s even) and even though it has a lot of horsepower at this alt it really doesn't translate into manuverability at this alt.
Not a negative, per se, just a note.
Oh, and "what he types" - I take a bit of offense at this. I've not typed anything that's "got me in trouble" as you put it. I may not choose the best words or phrase things in the best way, but I try to clarify if there is any confusion (at least I try!).
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You can't "dogfight" with any a/c up at hight alt (30k +), it becomes a E fight. Trying to fight anything at high alt with anywhere close to equal E state than yourself is very difficult, so if you're up there in the Ta (or any other a/c) make sure you have the speed or alt advantage before engaging anything. Obviously you have not experienced the speed and maneuverability of the Ta at 35k. It's not a Spitfire either, try to fly it like one and you'll die inevitably. The Ta152 require some brains and nerve control to perform well.
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No offense intended Krusty. My appologies if some was taken. My point was only that What you post, often invokes strong responses all across the board. That's good. :lol Keep em sharp. :aok
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This thread is hilarious.
Snap, I like Krusty and while we often disagree on things, we keep it civil. What he types gets him in trouble, nothing more. This is not the venue for suggesting duels based on this topic. I don't think anyone needs to duel someone in order to "comment" , do you? Moot, while totally lethal, is not the only TA ace in game. Vortex is massivley talented in the TA sir. Massively. Very few pilots in AH would last more than a few minutes with him at alt. But that is not the question here. You seem to be gunning for Vortex lately, on many different threads. Maybe I am wrong about that. I do hope so, as being a close freind to the man, I can tell ya he is a poilished act.
I'm not gunning for vortex in anyway at all. To the best of my knowledge the only place I've ever "crossed swords" with him is in the recent "storch" AvA thread.....I probably argue with Krusty on the BBS more then anybody. I was also not implying a "duel". I tool around with alot of guys in the DA in a very friendly "lets try things out" manner all the time. IMO the person being uncivil was vortex (which he seems to do alot). He's the one flat out telling Krusty he doesnt know how to fly the plane (152). In actually reading Krustys comment its pretty clear he's saying exactly the same thing as vortex....
From my perspective if anything he was "gunning" (to use your term) for Krusty, all I did was question why he would choose to make a comment on Krustys skill level. My personal thoughts are that the 152 is at a disadvantage vs both the spitXIV and the P47N at 30k....the spitty is a significantly better plane at high alt and while the 47N will come down to relative pilot skills its an easier plane to fly up high due to its stability....
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Let's get rid of the personal tit-for-tat and get back on point please.
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I am glad I came up with this idea........ this is going to be a BLAST!!!
:D
No doubt about it.. Gonna have people on edge too, high speeds (no time for any hesitation) and there's no BB guns anywhere in the planeset..
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I don't like posting redundantly but Moot just summed it beautifully. Once an engagement commences there is going to be stress. If you had beads of sweat during the last FSO you will produce a bucket here. More time jockeying for position and less time shooting.
I'll add by reprhasing or restating a point of view I tried to make earlier. This FSO initially seems simple. I believe it to be quite complex. CIC's will have to think in 4 dimensions to exploit the strengths they wield. This will be ever so important for the Axis side. Without careful planning of routes, altitudes and timings they will walk the edge of disaster. With exceptional planning they might inflict one.
At every level there looks to be a great and memorable FSO in the offing.
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Let's get rid of the personal tit-for-tat and get back on point please.
Yes, please stop "poking" at each other. I am getting tired of reading it.
;)
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the me262's should have a penalty if shot down. Lose a 262, u lose it for the entire fso. lose 64 262's frame 1, u lose them for the rest of the frames.
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the me262's should have a penalty if shot down. Lose a 262, u lose it for the entire fso. lose 64 262's frame 1, u lose them for the rest of the frames.
Interesting.
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And why should that apply to the 262 only? The scenario is completely ahistorical, any reference to historical a/c availability is thus nullified.
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1200 262's were actually built by Germany by April 1945 with their industry bombed into oblivion. Imagine how many could have been built by June 1945 if heavy bombing ended in late '43 as per the scenario description. If anything should be limited it would be Spitfire Mk14's, Tempests and P47N's, but that would be a bit unfair.
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Someone do the math.. Would attrition of those 1200 262s vs. attrition of however many of each other model in the scenario equate to 64 262s being the proportional maximum "germany" could field?
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Read the scenario again, it's completely up to the scenario designer to dictate the rules because it clearly has nothing, or very little, to do with historical events (as they happened). So 1200 262s is also, a irrelevant number.
Fact remains that the germans pushed jet a/c into service earlier than the allies, while the allies relied more on proven technology used in numbers. Had the situation been as in this scenario, jet a/c would no doubt have taken priority in development on the allied side as well. However, the German Me262 was a superior design at the time. With its swept wing it was more aerodynamically advanced than the US P80 and the British Meteor. Had the Germans laid their priorities right, they could have fielded the 262 in 1943, while the allies may have been able to match that service date (roughly, I don't know enough of their development to tell but let's assume they could have) with their own jet fighters, the 262 was at the time the most advanced design.
Given the conditions of this scenario, it seems the U-boot war in the atlantic is playing out in favor of the germans. So it wouldn't be odd if supplies were scarce on the British isles.
It is a kind of a "nightmare" scenario for the allies. So what, do people have a problem with that?
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I read it. The brief doesn't say anything about departure from the historical development of the 262. It hints at the UK being less well-off.. The point of my post was in response to AKDogg suggesting the 262s get attrition along the three frames. Would the jets' numbers have followed such a trend of attrition relative to (zero) allied attrition, if we changed the proportions from 1200 to 64?
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Would the jets' numbers have followed such a trend of attrition relative to (zero) allied attrition, if we changed the proportions from 1200 to 64?
Could you clarify? Relative to what? It could be just me, english is not my first language so sometimes I miss things that are said.
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Relative to the allies' infinite supply of airplanes. The best thing to do is most likely to just wait for the first frame's result, though. I think the setup could go either way completely, so just three frames won't be enough to base a rebalancing strategy on. It's all going to be in the players and commanders' hands.
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My one suggestion is that, considering this may be a rare time where squads overwhelmingly request to fly Axis over Allies, this frame be an exception to the "flying for the same side consecutively" rule.
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Ok moot I understand what you mean.
I think it would be fair that squads that always fly axis should have a guaranteed place, as axis. Just because the allied squads are afraid of jets, doesn't make it fair for them to switch side as they please. That's about as much turncoat politics as it gets.
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I think it would be fair that squads that always fly axis should have a guaranteed place, as axis.
From another thread:
That being said, for next month's FSO, for you squads that maintain an Axis focus, especially those squads that favor Germans rides, you'll have your shot at flying German, regardless of your past few FSO's. I won't penalize you for consistently volunteering to fly Axis just because we will, presumably, have a lot of squads requesting Axis.
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Right, but reason *I* ask is this:
Squad requested and flew Allies last frame. Squad requests Axis this time, but because of the overwhelming number of squads wanting Axis so they don't have to fight against the jets they are instead placed on Allies. Next tour, the squad likes the Allied plane set and requests Allies. HOWEVER, they've already flown Allied the last two tours, and per the general rules on side assignments, it's unlikely (though not impossible) they'll get a third tour in a row as Allied.
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I thought you picked side for the duration of a whole FSO, not just per frame. :huh
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Fixed. :P
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what if nobody gets to request a side and it is picked at random :uhoh innie...meanie... miney... moe...
better yet lets get HT alittle extra cash for development, we can all bid your the side you want!! axis postion for $20 going once.....
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I'd pitch in a few dollars if they put the Ta183 in game. :rofl
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I think the rides on the Allied side look like alot more fun then the Axis, dog fighting in a 262 just isn't that fun, they are fun for hunting Buffs, but the Allies have none in this setup, and 234 are hard to bomb in, especially with manual calibration, another thing with the 234 is your not really gonna see much action, the Allies really can't get more then 1 pass on them before they go out of range, so to me Allies are the side to be on this setup.
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The solution to the jet problem. DON"T LET EM LAND. Historically the fighters would hang around the fields that german jets took off from and covered those fields with fighters to get the jets while they were low and slow.
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The solution to the jet problem. DON"T LET EM LAND. Historically the fighters would hang around the fields that german jets took off from and covered those fields with fighters to get the jets while they were low and slow.
It will be quite easy for the jets to avoid this, and it might be very dangerous for the allied fighters. The LW will know what fields the allied planes are covering (base flash) so they can just divert to another base. Plus the Allied fighters will need to be at a lower ALT (< 15K) to be in a good position to pick off any landing jets, what happens to those allied fighters if the jets arrive at the base at 20K? Or if they have 10-20 109's and 190's go to the base first at 20+K?
That could get very ugly for the Allied fighters
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Wow, 8 pages.
I wonder if there is any interest in this event? ;)
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Wow, 8 pages.
I wonder if there is any interest in this event? ;)
Yeah I think this is gonna be a very interesting event, the plane setup for this FSO is one of the most interesting I've seen in a long time.
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looks like a great 1 looking forward to it :salute
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This is gonna be one heck of an event. Having battles at 30k+ due to the performance of most of the birds. :rofl
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The solution to the jet problem. DON"T LET EM LAND. Historically the fighters would hang around the fields that german jets took off from and covered those fields with fighters to get the jets while they were low and slow.
Hence the Platzschutzstaffel, or Papagei Staffel (if you prefer) of Jagdverband 44.
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Holy Crap I want to be part of this one, someone sign me up. And Vortex, where you been, how you been doing how come you never write. <S> :salute We get in this frame, I am going to call Navajo right now. :aok
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VF-6 Kämpfer Schwadron
Ready... *clicks heals*
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I feel bad for this FSO's cm he probably won't have anyone at the event.
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I feel bad for this FSO's cm he probably won't have anyone at the event.
You probably couldn't be more wrong.
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I feel bad for this FSO's cm he probably won't have anyone at the event.
:huh :confused: :frown:
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It is a joke, sarcasm.
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It is a joke, sarcasm.
sarcasm doesn't tend to come through in the written word.