Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Roundeye on June 23, 2008, 09:20:27 PM
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Over the last few years I've been on, I've seen kill stealing brought up several times. If you have been on enough, I'm sure it has happened to you as well. Sometimes it can be an honest mistake, but what happened today was blatant.
I shot a plane off of a fellow countryman's tail after much manuevering. I shot the tail completely off of the plane and it was falling flat, staight down, obviously no longer a threat. I even called out this particular plane as down over range. As I looked back, I saw tracers from a "friendly" (I use the term loosely) pouring into this falling, tailess plane. I look at the text buffer and of course see "assist on -----"
I really don't care about the score, or getting a handle up in lights, it's just the point of the matter. I'm not going to lose my cool and crawl the guy, because it does no good and it's likely a noob kid that doesn't know any better anyway. But to do nothing about it is no different than encouraging it.
If you've been here more than a couple of weeks, I'm sure you can relate to this problem. There are some pretty sharp people here that have been playing this game for a while, so I ask you: What can be done? Or should we just let it go? Let the guy you've worked hard to knock down get stolen as the wreckage falls to the ground?
HT has been exellent at listening to the community and fixing problems, so if there is enough voice, there will be a result.
I suggest this: If a part critical to flight is missing, the plane is scored as a kill right then. It's not hard. Simply looking at the damage list tells you the game already knows what has been hit. Examples are: Wing (entire), horizontal stabs, vertical stabs and tail section. If those are missing, the plane has no hope of continued flight...it has been killed and reduced to falling wreckage. Any shots that follow can do damage, but will not be counted as it is now a crash looking for a place to happen.
PS: No, this is not a :cry or a :furious. It is a question to my Brothers and Sisters. Should it be fixed or rewarded?
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I used chastise them over range a few years ago. Now, I can careless. If they need a kill that bad, well, then they can have it.
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Only problem I see is we won't be able to steal kills form squadies, which is the only reason to fly in a squad anyway....LOL :D
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yup. Just look at our squad rules ( website is in SpikesX sig)
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Only problem I see is we won't be able to steal kills form squadies, which is the only reason to fly in a squad anyway....LOL :D
OMG. You wrong for that :rofl
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Not sure what needs to be fixed. If you kill someone, you get the credit, kill em before the other guy steals it. I think it would be far simpler for you to chase the plane down if you want to confirm the kill instead of trying to code something that already has a solution. You can't code behavior out of people, finish the job instead of counting on someone else to honor what you might say over range.
Just an opinion, stuff like this doesn't bother me. Remember, you asked :)
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"Make sure you finish 'em off <censored>!"
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WOOO WOOOO!
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"It is amazing what you can accomplish if you do not care who gets the credit."
or
"My grandfather once told me that there are two kinds of people: those who work and those who take the credit. He told me to try to be in the first group; there was less competition there."
Real life quotes that work pretty well (if not perfectly) in this game. Channel 6 means nothing to what you actualy did, and what you actualy did should be the only thing that really matters.
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Not sure what needs to be fixed. If you kill someone, you get the credit, kill em before the other guy steals it. I think it would be far simpler for you to chase the plane down if you want to confirm the kill instead of trying to code something that already has a solution. You can't code behavior out of people, finish the job instead of counting on someone else to honor what you might say over range.
Just an opinion, stuff like this doesn't bother me. Remember, you asked :)
Oh? Well..
You can not award the kill at the time of damage. The outcome of the flight has still not been determined. The odds are he will crash and die,but that is not always the case.
But I have lost wings at times near ground and ended up with a ditch by luck.
What would be possible is that no more lethality points are tracked once certian componets fail. The plane could still be shot and more damage done, but no kill award tracking would be done, you still must stay living until the hit plane exits flight.
Been thinking about implementing this for a while, it just hasn't moved to the top of the list yet.
HiTech
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Yep, e.g. break something on a tank and that part's damage doesnt count for a kill anymore..
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half the time stolen kills are a mistake. one decent solution i thought about the other day was this.
have a [dot]command to give a kill to a person who got an assist.
say if you and wingman want to swap credit for a kill i would type
.swap#3 Redtop
where #3 relates to the kill you stole.
at the end of the day, there are plenty more kills out there, not really something worth actualy doing some work on.
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Flying a flak yak, you get used to seeing streams of Hizookas pouring into aircraft you've already disabled. It's a fact of death really, if you don't destroy them completely you're going to get an assist.
You get used to it eventually, though it would be nice if you got even a poofteenth of a point for an assist. I could care less about getting my name in lights but it would be nice to get a small reward for the 15 odd assists I just brought home with me. :aok
The thing that bugs me is when I've been working my kill down to a state where I can line up a good hit with the 'tater and some dweeb flies in between to steal my hard won kill, killshooting me with the 'tater in the progress. :furious
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Whoa, you shot the tail off? That plane is still a threat, I would have keep shooting him til he was a flying seat or he exploded!
But sometimes lag can affect it, he may not see the tail fly off and figures you broke off, but who knows? I say get rid of the kill messages, make it interesting!
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I dont mind too much anymore now. As long as can see who it was that i killed to give them an <S> im happy. :)
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I make a concerted effort to back off any plane I see with major damage or someone calls down over vox. The only damaged plane I'll still fire on is a buff flying over a base if he/she hasn't dropped their eggs. I learned that early on in this game.
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The biggest problems are simple, 1st you dont know what damage was done already. Your assuming the kill was awarded for damage done after your pass....I've found 90%+ of the time I get the kill when I should. 2nd your calling something out on range that may not be true. I'd say 90%+ the "cripple" isnt...
For every kill you lose you'll get 2 or 3 back from other guys finishing off cons you initially engaged but couldnt finish.
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3/2008
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,228878.msg2777459.html#msg2777459
6/2004
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,118517.msg1244235.html#msg1244235
5/2002
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,52707.msg480289.html#msg480289
HT actually gave some of his opinions in that 2002 thread...
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Whoa, you shot the tail off? That plane is still a threat, I would have keep shooting him til he was a flying seat or he exploded!
But sometimes lag can affect it, he may not see the tail fly off and figures you broke off, but who knows? I say get rid of the kill messages, make it interesting!
that might happen more often than you think... a guy with a laggy connection hosing down a con that's already been wasted by a nearby friendly, but only he doesn't know it because his front end is a few seconds behind the game. in the past playing from new zealand with a dial-up i use to get a few "wtf are you doing" in the text buffer, "i'm just making sure" would be the reply to that, and "sorry lag" if they were polite.
leave the kill messages. get rid of rank and the score system. i know that's not a viable commercial option for htc, but one can hope. it would help deflate some of the ubber egos, make scorewhoring pointless and maybe lower the overall whine content and the truly good sticks will always shine through anyway. imo, as almost a pure ww2 combat flight sim being rewarded by a score system was irrelevant and not needed to enjoy the game... game play was alot better, less quake like, and more fun before the obsession with rank, perks and points.. and all those pesky ground vehicles :)
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Fix kill stealing? That would take ALL the fun out of, of... KILL STEALING!! MUAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!! :t
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, because it does no good and it's likely a noob kid that doesn't know any better anyway.
Should it be fixed or rewarded?
I have seen many a long time player (often one of the score mongers), who intentionally do this. No ifs ands or buts about it. No chance for a lag excuse. No chance for an "I just wanted to see who it was" excuse when the friendly was not in any way involved in the fighting. And yes it should be fixed. When it becomes prevalent enough that there are constant complaints on the subject, it probably will be fixed.
The last player I seen do it to a plane I shot was Dextur. He was trailing me outbound 4k back, I caught a N1K2 unawares, took it's tail off and kept going. Still 4k in trail I watched him dive on at the last second at the falling N1K and pump it until it exploded.
I have, over and over and over and over and over, watched friendlies dart from every direction on a wingless or tailless plane, like a bunch of fish in a tank going after the same piece of food. This is long overdue to be fixed, and the apathetic, and jaded replies, do nothing but endorse this kind of gameplay behavior. Which to me is a good thing, because when the community just shrugs is shoulders over undesired behavior, it becomes more prevailent until it reaches the point the HTC addresses it.
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The thing that bugs me is when I've been working my kill down to a state where I can line up a good hit with the 'tater and some dweeb flies in between to steal my hard won kill, killshooting me with the 'tater in the progress. :furious
+eleventybillion
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OMG. You wrong for that :rofl
thats why WoT doesn't do many raids together...we take our mind of the base and fights for the kills :devil
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I have seen many a long time player (often one of the score mongers), who intentionally do this. No ifs ands or buts about it. No chance for a lag excuse. No chance for an "I just wanted to see who it was" excuse when the friendly was not in any way involved in the fighting. And yes it should be fixed. When it becomes prevalent enough that there are constant complaints on the subject, it probably will be fixed.
The last player I seen do it to a plane I shot was Dextur. He was trailing me outbound 4k back, I caught a N1K2 unawares, took it's tail off and kept going. Still 4k in trail I watched him dive on at the last second at the falling N1K and pump it until it exploded.
I have, over and over and over and over and over, watched friendlies dart from every direction on a wingless or tailless plane, like a bunch of fish in a tank going after the same piece of food. This is long overdue to be fixed, and the apathetic, and jaded replies, do nothing but endorse this kind of gameplay behavior. Which to me is a good thing, because when the community just shrugs is shoulders over undesired behavior, it becomes more prevailent until it reaches the point the HTC addresses it.
That is the only way dextur can manage kills. I enjoy ruining "bottomfeeders" nights. When I see bullets flying past me, I deliberately fly into them just to hear the whines on Range.
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Murdr, I <S> you, sir. You seem to understand exactly where I'm coming from. Thank you for the quote from HT. I see now that it has been an issue the community wants to see go away and HT was (of course) miles ahead of me in thinking of a solution.
To all who said I should have finished him: Exactly how could I have? We were in a tight turn and I was about 200 off of his 6. When I sawed the tail off, it immediately pitched up and pretty much stopped as it began to fall like a rock. Impossible to pull that maneuver in a flyable plane. Even if I could have, I would have collided with it. I would have had to loop around to finish off the falling wreck which would not be very high by then. The "friendly" behind me was in perfect position to fire on the wreckage.....the deed was done right as I looked back from passing it.
To those who thought someone else hit it first: This plane was very high and dropped in to our field which was becoming capped by the enemy. I watched it the whole time waiting for it to blow it's E. When it did, I struck. I was about 200 behind and saw no missing parts, no smoke/fuel/glycol trails. Completely intact. After I sawed the tail off, I called it down, looked back and watched The "friendly" behind me dive with it pouring a hail of gunfire into the falling wreck until it exploded.
Again, I say a plane should be scored as dead if it loses a complete wing, all of it's horizontal stabilizers, all of the vertical stabilizer(s) or tail section. If any of those occur on an airborne plane, it is DONE FOR. It is no longer under any kind of control and is nothing more than falling, out-of-control wreckage. It's not hard. HT has the technology and has already studied on it. That would wind this issue up for good.
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You gotta finish 'em off! WOOWOOOOOO!
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Again, I say a plane should be scored as dead if it loses a complete wing, all of it's horizontal stabilizers, all of the vertical stabilizer(s) or tail section. If any of those occur on an airborne plane, it is DONE FOR. It is no longer under any kind of control and is nothing more than falling, out-of-control wreckage. It's not hard. HT has the technology and has already studied on it. That would wind this issue up for good.
Agreed, But I'd also like to see that apply to planes on fire. Granted, torches can still do damage, but the guy who initially lit that torch should get the kill when it inevitably goes down. Unless of course the torch is miraculously able to land or ditch in time.
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I agree it should be fixed as you say. I've had it happen to me several times blatantly but not recently.
Sometimes they are just a mistake but a fix would solve that too.
On the other hand, I've seen a lot of guys call a plane down on range only to watch it level off and fly on. In that case, I'm going in on it if I'm in position.
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... HT has the technology and has already studied on it. That would wind this issue up for good.
HT's solution looks viable to me. I'll assume that it's priority is not high enough yet, so maybe votes will help. I say :aok
Not to hijack the thread, but on the issue of fire, I think it would be much more interesting to have fires be something other than a countdown to certain doom. After all, many planes had on-board fire extinguishing systems, and operations manuals advised high speed dives to attempt to extinguish a fire. That might also help with the sudden killer urge folks get when they "flame on". Of course, this leads to questions about why self-sealing fuel tanks don't and why there is leaking fuel from empty tanks, but I'll quit now.
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Agreed, But I'd also like to see that apply to planes on fire. Granted, torches can still do damage, but the guy who initially lit that torch should get the kill when it inevitably goes down. Unless of course the torch is miraculously able to land or ditch in time.
I thought this would come up. I, sir, must respectfully disagree and here is why: I have, in a Zeke (go figure), shot planes down while on fire. I have also safely landed and ditched while on fire. A burning plane (esp. a Zero/Zeke) is very much alive and a threat. It's time is limited, but it still has guns and is still flying under control.
Now, before these are brought up, let me add these as well: Half of a wing missing is NOT dead. I have shot planes, dropped ords and safely landed a F6F with half of a wing missing. It will still fly and is under control. I have also flown back and landed a B-24 with half of both wings shot off. Same applies to flight controls. I have flown home and landed planes missing both ailerons. One missing a rudder is not hard to bring home either. Now missing both elevators is tricky, but can be limped to friendly territory and ditched using power and flaps and turning it on it's side (using the rudder like an elevator) to control it's rate of decent. (I have not gotten one to flare for safe landing without elevators yet) The above conditions are wounded, but dead by no means. They still fly.
Basically its' like this: If it is still FLYING and UNDER CONTROL, it is not dead. A plane missing an entire wing, any set of primary surfaces of the tail, or the tail section has no hope of flying or remaining under any form of control. It is a crash looking for a place to happen.
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I dont see an easy fix. I make note of who it was and if the kill steal was blatant, I'll generally ignore the person and wont go out of my way to help them in anything.
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There aren't a million TKO configurations. e.g. Missing a whole wing, that's a good threshold to stop counting damage. You could arguably go through all possible damage states and set other configurations as damage-counting thresholds. That would already take care of a good number of kill steals.
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Not sure what needs to be fixed. If you kill someone, you get the credit, kill em before the other guy steals it. I think it would be far simpler for you to chase the plane down if you want to confirm the kill instead of trying to code something that already has a solution. You can't code behavior out of people, finish the job instead of counting on someone else to honor what you might say over range.
Just an opinion, stuff like this doesn't bother me. Remember, you asked :)
:huh If the tail is off the enemy plane, bomber engine on fire, that plane is finished! Why should you sacrifice alt or ammo on him anymore? I see the posters point in this as he did all the work to have some tard come in and get the kill for it. If you call the plane dead then others should respect that you have done your job and leave it alone. If they want to follow a tailless plane down to make sure he dies, well that's up to them, but they shouldn't be shooting at it. Why waste ammo/alt?
As far as a fix? I don't think you'll ever see anything happen.
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Now missing both elevators is tricky, but can be limped to friendly territory and ditched using power and flaps and turning it on it's side (using the rudder like an elevator) to control it's rate of decent.
Ditch? Why not just land? Note, there are no elevators or rudders on this plane :)
(http://home.comcast.net/~tdalesr/p-38-elevrud.jpg)
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:huh If the tail is off the enemy plane, bomber engine on fire, that plane is finished! Why should you sacrifice alt or ammo on him anymore? I see the posters point in this as he did all the work to have some tard come in and get the kill for it. If you call the plane dead then others should respect that you have done your job and leave it alone. If they want to follow a tailless plane down to make sure he dies, well that's up to them, but they shouldn't be shooting at it. Why waste ammo/alt?
As far as a fix? I don't think you'll ever see anything happen.
That bomber damage is only an effective kill if it's already dropped its bombs or if it isn't ackstarring a field, etc. A plane with only its flaps shot off, or a zeke just set on fire are both still able to kill. An ostie in the open out in the middle of nowhere is good as dead if its turret is out, but it's still worth shooting at if it's parked with neither engine nor turret but with the hull gun pointed at and in range of a runway spawn or map room, etc. GVs could easily improve if they had parts taken off the damage counting list once they're damaged, but planes are probably more arguable.. A whole wing or fuselage section taken off a plane ought to end damage counting, though.
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I really don't care about the score, or getting a handle up in lights, it's just the point of the matter.
Ummm... :huh If you don't care who gets credit for the kill, why the thread about stealing it? If in fact you don't care about the score or "name in lights" then you should be satisfied that YOU KNOW you shot the bad guy down and he is no longer a threat to your team.
I agree that kill stealing is a poor exercise in game play; however, just admit that the reason kill stealing is crap is that you want the recognition of blasting said NME from the sky. There is nothing wrong with that and there is no reason to be embarrassed about it. :salute
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Of course, if you really wanted to address an issue of kill stealing, one should consider the GV - pre-kill stealing. By that I mean the tard that flies around strafing every tank on the map with their .50cals knowing full well that they cannot affect any damage. Then when someone else comes along and drops a bomb on the tanks, the bomb racks up the assist because some dweeb has pumped 100 rounds of BBs into the bad guy previously. I see this WAY more often than some squeaker shooting a wingless cockpit all the way to the ground (although I admit it does happen)
:salute
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Of course, if you really wanted to address an issue of kill stealing, one should consider the GV - pre-kill stealing. By that I mean the tard that flies around strafing every tank on the map with their .50cals knowing full well that they cannot affect any damage. Then when someone else comes along and drops a bomb on the tanks, the bomb racks up the assist because some dweeb has pumped 100 rounds of BBs into the bad guy previously. I see this WAY more often than some squeaker shooting a wingless cockpit all the way to the ground (although I admit it does happen)
:salute
Kill stealing in the air does happen occasionally by accident, sometimes deliberately (though often by new players not knowing it better), and sometimes sheer bad luck (find a lone bomber, kill him and suddenly you find that someone just hat put a lot of rounds in him before)
But in the end I found it evens pretty much out over the long run.
But that kind of killstealing vs GVs sometimes really gets me upset. Especially when a player didn't simply put a bomb on a tank, but invested a few minutes to take a tank, drive to the enemy only to get "assist" after slugging it out with that enemy Tiger in front of him.
I see that literally every day... about 30mins ago, enemy T34 rolling to the base and two Ponys happily strafing with their .50cals. :rolleyes:
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Ditch? Why not just land? Note, there are no elevators or rudders on this plane :)
(http://home.comcast.net/~tdalesr/p-38-elevrud.jpg)
Nice job! :aok. I have not had the chance to try that in a P-38 ( I usually get alot more than that shot off of me and die a fiery horrible death in those planes :D )
I have tried in a P-47 and a Mossie..best I coax out of those was a semi-controlled ditch.
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Ummm... :huh If you don't care who gets credit for the kill, why the thread about stealing it? If in fact you don't care about the score or "name in lights" then you should be satisfied that YOU KNOW you shot the bad guy down and he is no longer a threat to your team.
I agree that kill stealing is a poor exercise in game play; however, just admit that the reason kill stealing is crap is that you want the recognition of blasting said NME from the sky. There is nothing wrong with that and there is no reason to be embarrassed about it. :salute
Again, its the POINT of the matter. The principal. Even if I do not care about score/name in lights, why should the work I have done help the score of some noob chasing down and sawing up dead planes?
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What really needs fixing in that regard is the fact that the kill ever goes to the strafer that does "pointless" damage in the first place. As it is, it's a self-perpetuating situation, because the less well informed player performs a reasonable seeming action, and then gets awarded a kill for doing so - unless the player follows the boards or involves themselves in squad play, they may not realize for a long long time that the strafing didn't actually "do" anything substantial. I know I played for months without realizing that strafing vehicles was pointless. I found out that I wasn't actually damaging anything here - and only a small percentage of the players visit the BBS.
It's like Pavlov's dogs - they push a button, they get a reward. And it's going to be a very uphill battle to change the herd behavior as long as the unwanted behavior is rewarded.
<S>
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For a guy that doesnt care you sure wrote quite the post on it.
Crikey, I think HTC has other issues to spend game development time on, imho. It can be annoying, sure, but its such a minor thing really.
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I would like to keep the current version of the scoring system, solely because I enjoy stealing kills from my squadmates whenever possible.
offtopic: What a battle in that 2002 thread :lol. Some of Hooligan's comments were hilarious.
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I would like to keep the current version of the scoring system, solely because I enjoy stealing kills from my squadmates whenever possible.
offtopic: What a battle in that 2002 thread :lol. Some of Hooligan's comments were hilarious.
As a member of JG11, most of the guys in the squad are way better than I am. I find myself "losing" kills to a squaddie, quite often.
This is OK for us, and Stampf (our fearless leader) gives much praise for it, especially in FSO events.
When flying with a squad, one member may be a more accurate shot. This is usually the guy who gets the kill credit. But... having a bunch of assists is not necessarily a bad thing, especially if you bag a bunch of kills for the squad as a whole. More people in a squad having assists rather than kills implies a certain level of teamwork. If you get the assist, but your wingie gets the kill, it means that you were still doing your job well. You pumped some rounds into him, which probably shook the guy up, ultimately giving your wingman or squaddie an easier time of neutralizing something that could be a future threat.
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What really needs fixing in that regard is the fact that the kill ever goes to the strafer that does "pointless" damage in the first place. As it is, it's a self-perpetuating situation, because the less well informed player performs a reasonable seeming action, and then gets awarded a kill for doing so - unless the player follows the boards or involves themselves in squad play, they may not realize for a long long time that the strafing didn't actually "do" anything substantial. I know I played for months without realizing that strafing vehicles was pointless. I found out that I wasn't actually damaging anything here - and only a small percentage of the players visit the BBS.
It's like Pavlov's dogs - they push a button, they get a reward. And it's going to be a very uphill battle to change the herd behavior as long as the unwanted behavior is rewarded.
<S>
Whoops _ failed to specify that I was responding to the discussion on guys strafing tanks - my earlier post doesn't make a lot of sense if applied to the issue of air-to-air "kill-stealing".
<S>
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Again, its the POINT of the matter. The principal. Even if I do not care about score/name in lights, why should the work I have done help the score of some noob chasing down and sawing up dead planes?
Again, you have posted about score. You are torqued because the noob's score is improving where your's is not for work that YOU did. I am not saying you are wrong. In fact, I agree completely with you. But let's at least call a dog - a dog. The point of this whole thing is absolutely about score or you wouldn't care about who got the Kill Message and who got the Assist Message. Because the only difference there is THE SCORE.
<Salute>
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Kill stealing in the air does happen occasionally by accident, sometimes deliberately (though often by new players not knowing it better), and sometimes sheer bad luck (find a lone bomber, kill him and suddenly you find that someone just hat put a lot of rounds in him before)
But in the end I found it evens pretty much out over the long run.
But that kind of killstealing vs GVs sometimes really gets me upset. Especially when a player didn't simply put a bomb on a tank, but invested a few minutes to take a tank, drive to the enemy only to get "assist" after slugging it out with that enemy Tiger in front of him.
I see that literally every day... about 30mins ago, enemy T34 rolling to the base and two Ponys happily strafing with their .50cals. :rolleyes:
Lusche, I have to agree 100% with you there. (Because I suck in GVs, I don't see that as often as I don't engage in drawn out GV battles.) That level of idiocy has reached the point that short of preventing a spawn / VH camp, I will not drop my bombs or engage a GV if some BB sprayer has already been through pinging the armor. I will not "give" them the kill. If said "Red Rider Bandit" wants the kill, he/she will have to land and then earn it. I will just keep letting them strafe until they crash, then I will apply ordinance. :salute
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I see that literally every day... about 30mins ago, enemy T34 rolling to the base and two Ponys happily strafing with their .50cals.
Hmmm. I was under the impression that .50cals could do damage to armor, especially to the thinner top back armor, and that there was always a chance of tracking the vehicle. The .50s do work against halftracks and flak guns, although now that I think about it, perhaps that has more to do with the open top nature of those vehicles. Strafing vehicles is far too dangerous to be doing if there is no chance of damaging them.
Oh, while we're here, I often strafe GVs as a way to point them out to friendly GV'ers nearby. Is there a better way to accomplish that task? I don't have a very good GV-eye view of the world.
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Machnum, what I tend to do now is put out a very short burst, and just put it fairly near them. They don't need me to actually hit it to be able to see where I'm "pointing" with my tracers.
And yes, perhaps you CAN track a tank eventually with 50's (and folks have said that on some tanks you can eventually kill the engine if you strafe from high rear and are "perfectly" aimed, but I've never managed it) yet for some reason a good long burst of 50's seems to nearly ensure that you get the kill attribution, despite the fact that it seems to take more than a full ammo load even in a plane like an F4U to actually cause anything to "break".
This is what I don't understand... how can I do so much damage that I get the kill credit while at the same time I do so little damage that I have to re-up three times to actually break parts by strafing?
<S>
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Over the last few years I've been on, I've seen kill stealing brought up several times. If you have been on enough, I'm sure it has happened to you as well. Sometimes it can be an honest mistake, but what happened today was blatant.
I shot a plane off of a fellow countryman's tail after much manuevering. I shot the tail completely off of the plane and it was falling flat, staight down, obviously no longer a threat. I even called out this particular plane as down over range. As I looked back, I saw tracers from a "friendly" (I use the term loosely) pouring into this falling, tailess plane. I look at the text buffer and of course see "assist on -----"
I really don't care about the score, or getting a handle up in lights, it's just the point of the matter. I'm not going to lose my cool and crawl the guy, because it does no good and it's likely a noob kid that doesn't know any better anyway. But to do nothing about it is no different than encouraging it.
If you've been here more than a couple of weeks, I'm sure you can relate to this problem. There are some pretty sharp people here that have been playing this game for a while, so I ask you: What can be done? Or should we just let it go? Let the guy you've worked hard to knock down get stolen as the wreckage falls to the ground?
HT has been exellent at listening to the community and fixing problems, so if there is enough voice, there will be a result.
I suggest this: If a part critical to flight is missing, the plane is scored as a kill right then. It's not hard. Simply looking at the damage list tells you the game already knows what has been hit. Examples are: Wing (entire), horizontal stabs, vertical stabs and tail section. If those are missing, the plane has no hope of continued flight...it has been killed and reduced to falling wreckage. Any shots that follow can do damage, but will not be counted as it is now a crash looking for a place to happen.
PS: No, this is not a :cry or a :furious. It is a question to my Brothers and Sisters. Should it be fixed or rewarded?
I can understand your frustration and have had the same thing happen to me, but calling a plane down over range means squat in my book. There have been to many times to count when someone calls out on range such and such plane down and the next thing you know that plane is on your tail shooting. I much prefer for a plane to be exploded than to rely on someone's judgement of the situation. I don't really care who gets kill credit as long as the red plane is dead.
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Spazz
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Hmmm. I was under the impression that .50cals could do damage to armor, especially to the thinner top back armor, and that there was always a chance of tracking the vehicle. The .50s do work against halftracks and flak guns, although now that I think about it, perhaps that has more to do with the open top nature of those vehicles. Strafing vehicles is far too dangerous to be doing if there is no chance of damaging them.
Oh, while we're here, I often strafe GVs as a way to point them out to friendly GV'ers nearby. Is there a better way to accomplish that task? I don't have a very good GV-eye view of the world.
Strafing open-topped Wirbels & Ostwinds as well as Lvts, M3s and the like is fine - every gun in game can ot them out of action.
However strafing Tigers, and T34 with mere .50cals is almost worthless - but you still get the kill.
When I want to point those tanks out to my GV comrades on the ground, I just shoot the ground next to them. That's sufficient, and who cares if my attack hit % drops from 51.9 to 50.1 % ;)
Of course, if I'm in Hurri D or Il-2 I shoot to kill :)
This is what I don't understand... how can I do so much damage that I get the kill credit while at the same time I do so little damage that I have to re-up three times to actually break parts by strafing?
It's how track damage is modeled. They basically "soak up" damage points. You may not have done enough damage to actually break them yet, but it may be still more damage points than that single 75mm round did that made the tank go "boom".
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im not too worried about kill stealing. what most worries me is when someone flies infront of you when you are shooting at aircraft. that annoying. especially when your plane is damaged or you get kill shot
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Strafing open-topped Wirbels & Ostwinds as well as Lvts, M3s and the like is fine - every gun in game can ot them out of action.
However strafing Tigers, and T34 with mere .50cals is almost worthless - but you still get the kill.
When I want to point those tanks out to my GV comrades on the ground, I just shoot the ground next to them. That's sufficient, and who cares if my attack hit % drops from 51.9 to 50.1 % ;)
Of course, if I'm in Hurri D or Il-2 I shoot to kill :)
It's how track damage is modeled. They basically "soak up" damage points. You may not have done enough damage to actually break them yet, but it may be still more damage points than that single 75mm round did that made the tank go "boom".
I also thought that you could track a Tank with .50 cals :o From now on I will strafe next to them (some people think that I do that anyways)
Cheers,
gusman44
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I also thought that you could track a Tank with .50 cals :o
Actually it's not completely impossible, but only very very impropable and very rare... I think I will conduct some tests in the next few days.
The main problem is, many MG strafers do believe they can kill a Tiger thinking a kill credit is the same thing as a kill itself.
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Actually it's not completely impossible, but only very very impropable and very rare... I think I will conduct some tests in the next few days.
The main problem is, many MG strafers do believe they can kill a Tiger thinking a kill credit is the same thing as a kill itself.
Sure. You're just saying that so the n00bs won't get credit for the kills so you can have them all to yourself.
We all know how you hang around the H&T forum mis-leading n00bs. ;)
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half the time stolen kills are a mistake. one decent solution i thought about the other day was this.
have a [dot]command to give a kill to a person who got an assist.
say if you and wingman want to swap credit for a kill i would type
.swap#3 Redtop
where #3 relates to the kill you stole.
at the end of the day, there are plenty more kills out there, not really something worth actualy doing some work on.
hehe, I can think of a couple of squads that would give every kill to their leader
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kill stealer's are the one thing in AH that aggravate the crap out of me, im such a BADSHOT, that it takes most of my ammo to kill em so when i see a "friendly"
following my kill down, i do ask them over local if thats the only way they can kill something.
i dont think you should let them get away with it, maybe they are a noob that doesn't know, and by calling them out on it they may begin to understand.
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Again, you have posted about score. You are torqued because the noob's score is improving where your's is not for work that YOU did. I am not saying you are wrong. In fact, I agree completely with you. But let's at least call a dog - a dog. The point of this whole thing is absolutely about score or you wouldn't care about who got the Kill Message and who got the Assist Message. Because the only difference there is THE SCORE.
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You can call the issue behind my post whatever helps you sleep better at night. Doesn't really matter to me.
What I wanted to know was if kill-stealing is an issue with players and could/should it be fixed. Based on the responses of those who stayed on subject, I see it is an issue and can be fixed. :aok
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Of course, the late kills you get that should have been assists (when somebody else finishes off a con), we are all still cool with that right? Why no posts about how wrong, and unfair that is, and wether it can be "fixed"?
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killstealing from each other is a time honored tradition in my squad. :noid
in fact, at some drunken times, if the killstealer didn't get awarded the kill, we've considered that a steal from the killstealer!
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Of course, the late kills you get that should have been assists (when somebody else finishes off a con), we are all still cool with that right? Why no posts about how wrong, and unfair that is, and wether it can be "fixed"?
Actually, I've seen plenty of complaints over the last decade or so (in more than one sim...) - but no reasonable solutions!
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hehe, I can think of a couple of squads that would give every kill to their leader
true :noid
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"Actually, I've seen plenty of complaints over the last decade or so (in more than one sim...) - but no reasonable solutions!"
I cant remember one.
...In the end, they more than balance each other out, the # you may get "stolen" (which imho, many are only in the minds of some), added to the # you got where in reality somebody else shot the con down, and it should have been an assist. Thats my point. In other words, who cares. Up again, and have fun.
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"Actually, I've seen plenty of complaints over the last decade or so (in more than one sim...) - but no reasonable solutions!"
I cant remember one.
...In the end, they more than balance each other out, the # you may get "stolen" (which imho, many are only in the minds of some), added to the # you got where in reality somebody else shot the con down, and it should have been an assist. Thats my point. In other words, who cares. Up again, and have fun.
I didn't say I don't agree - I agree, they even out anyway, so it's a bunch of to do over nada. Just saying that I remember reading both here and elsewhere any number of times where folks moan that they pump an apparently undamaged con full of lead only to get an assist - which is precisely what you are referring too.
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killstealing from each other is a time honored tradition in my squad. :noid
Heck, yeah.
Improves gunnery, too. Shoot 'em until they pop.
The best is when you steal the kill and the other guy killshooters himself.
HONK!
Gooss
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I like the idea of being able to give ur kill to someone. I think it would help make people feel better. Also you would have to make it so that you had got a hit on it for it to be able to be given to you. Also sometimes you might think you have killed em when you haven't. One time for example one time i knocked PART of a p-47's wing off and thought I had a kill. It then dove down and started shooting someone when someone killed em. I though he stole my kill but he kindly explained that p-47's could fly with only half a wing.
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As far as stealing gv kills from the air, I may have done this unknowingly. I often use a N1K2 to mark nme gvs for our guys on the ground. I was not aware that if i hit them a couple times that I would get the kill. I will do as someone has mentioned earlier, and just shoot off to the side of the target a bit. :frown:
Now stealing a kill from an nme aircraft is something that I never do. I may close in on the falling plane just enough to see that it truly out of commission. And usually I will call out on range, that said plane is going down, if the one who shot it down does not.
100Coogn :rock
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The tank thing is a known issue also...
Ahh, I know why this happens. It's the tracks. They are a damageable component and can soak up a large quantity of damage from light cannon and MG which unbalances the kill awarding. I'll have to see if there's a way that HT can alter the awarding of GV kills to take that into account.
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:eek
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They could do the same with wings. No use shooting a plane that's missing one or both of them, or is missing half the fuselage, or both vstabs/the hstab, etc.