Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: wrongwayric on June 26, 2008, 07:04:05 AM
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This is pretty sad at it's best point.
http://streator.mediacomtoday.com/community/news/story/index.php?source=National&id=D91HKLO00&pd=20080626
10.50 an hour to risk, and lose your life?! That's pathetic. :( Hope that bill gets passed and maybe these men and women protecting us will get the pay they deserve.
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Here where I live they make about 100,000 or more a year including bennies. They also get 3% @ 50 per year retirement meaning... if they work 30 years.. say 20 to age 50.. they will retire at age 50 with a package worth about 90 thousand dollars a year for the rest of their life.
As far as danger.. cops are ranked about number 50 or so.. look up at the roof of your home and realize some roofer risked his life in some of the wost conditions imaginable to put it on your house and every building you enter.. he often does it for 10 bucks an hour in the same town the cop makes 100k and he has no retirement or bennies for the most part.. his body is shot by age 40 if he hasn't been killed by a fall or the heat.
lazs
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Here where I live they make about 100,000 or more a year including bennies. They also get 3% @ 50 per year retirement meaning... if they work 30 years.. say 20 to age 50.. they will retire at age 50 with a package worth about 90 thousand dollars a year for the rest of their life.
As far as danger.. cops are ranked about number 50 or so.. look up at the roof of your home and realize some roofer risked his life in some of the wost conditions imaginable to put it on your house and every building you enter.. he often does it for 10 bucks an hour in the same town the cop makes 100k and he has no retirement or bennies for the most part.. his body is shot by age 40 if he hasn't been killed by a fall or the heat.
lazs
the difference being roofers and other high risk employees risk their life on behalf of themselves. cops, firemen, and ems risk it for us.
every cop and teacher in the usa should start at 100K per year.
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Here where I live they make about 100,000 or more a year including bennies. They also get 3% @ 50 per year retirement meaning... if they work 30 years.. say 20 to age 50.. they will retire at age 50 with a package worth about 90 thousand dollars a year for the rest of their life.
As far as danger.. cops are ranked about number 50 or so.. look up at the roof of your home and realize some roofer risked his life in some of the wost conditions imaginable to put it on your house and every building you enter.. he often does it for 10 bucks an hour in the same town the cop makes 100k and he has no retirement or bennies for the most part.. his body is shot by age 40 if he hasn't been killed by a fall or the heat.
lazs
does someone try to shoot him in the face because he's a roofer? does he constantly have to wonder what next? roofing, although somewhat a skilled job, isn't nearly as dangerous as being a cop in my opinion.
nw, that being said, you will NEVER get me up on the roof of a building :rofl
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Ah.. so the nobility is the thing. Tell the cops here that they need to take a cut in pay to save their city from going bankrupt and see what the response is. 70-80% of all of a cities budget goes to support fire and police.
Teachers are the highest paid part time workers we have ever seen and whine about more money more than any other profession other than some union members.
I don't know how putting a good roof on a home is less noble than sitting in the shade in a squad car with radar gun.
You could do without police for a week.. you could do without firemen for maybe a year.. If the water or wastewater people closed one valve... people.... lots of people would start to die horrible deaths.. the dead would be the lucky ones.. and.. it is real physical danger and work.
If your roof collapsed or just leaked you would be in far more distress than if one house a year burned down.
lazs
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cap... you are about 50 times more likely to die on the job being a roofer than a cop. the largest percentage of cops go 30 years without ever even pulling out their weapon. It is not a particularly dangerous job.
http://money.cnn.com/2005/08/26/pf/jobs_jeopardy/
lazs
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It is not a particularly dangerous job.
your missing two very key realities...
1. Public Service
2. "Danger" is relative to where they serve.
In tampa bay it is relatively safe.......in south florida.....kids shoot cops in the face weekly.
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No.. with all due respect.. you are missing the point..
The roofer and wastewater worker are doing a public service and risking their lives and their health every day.. they just don't whine about it as much.
lazs
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The roofer and wastewater worker are doing a public service and risking their lives and their health every day..
lazs
:snicker:
I don't even think you buy that load of crap.
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you need to follow the link.. In most towns they can't even recall the last time a fireman or cop was killed..
The biggest cause of injury for cops here is that they are out of shape and they get back injuries from their utility belts. "getting out of the car" is the most often listed cause of police injury.
You really need to get up on a roof sometime in the heat of the summer and do a days work and then get back to me.
lazs
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cap... you are about 50 times more likely to die on the job being a roofer than a cop. the largest percentage of cops go 30 years without ever even pulling out their weapon. It is not a particularly dangerous job.
http://money.cnn.com/2005/08/26/pf/jobs_jeopardy/
lazs
come to south phill or camden, or newark, or trenton, and tell those cops. there's been i think 3 or 4 cops killed just this year in philly. i now there are bad cops, and i know there are lazy cops, but i also know quite a few, and the majority seem to have their jobs to try to help the community. i know the ex-chief of police in stratford nj. when i first met him he was a partolman only making 28k a year. his job cost him his marraige. some of the things he had to deal with in strastford, i couldn't believe. i thought stratford was a peaceful little quiet town till i got the inside scoop. the majority of cops are underpaid. period. one of my squadmates is a north jersey cop. look him up in the arenas.
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You could do without police for a week.. you could do without firemen for maybe a year.
lazs
i beg to dffer. imagine miami without police? or tampa? or philly or camden?
blood in the streets..worse than now
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you need to follow the link.. In most towns they can't even recall the last time a fireman or cop was killed..
The biggest cause of injury for cops here is that they are out of shape and they get back injuries from their utility belts. "getting out of the car" is the most often listed cause of police injury.
You really need to get up on a roof sometime in the heat of the summer and do a days work and then get back to me.
lazs
I did it in my late teens ......here in florida...I was a helper who unloaded the shingles/tiles from the conveyor onto the roof...and then ran the magnet to pick up all the nails in the grass. hated it.......but working with fiberglass at another job was far more taxing...and dangerous. I actually used to have to bathe in acetone before I went home.
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anywho laz......... the national law enforcement officers memorial fund has been my charity of choice since the early 90's........so I may just be biased.... this is something I feel deeply about...and I don't see anyone changing my opinion.
get yourself to a bigger city...and ride with a cop for a day...or night. they have programs that allow this. try miami, NY, philly, atlanta, la, boston, DC........ just one ride with them for an 8 hour shift....and I bet you change your mind.
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the difference being roofers and other high risk employees risk their life on behalf of themselves. cops, firemen, and ems risk it for us.
every cop and teacher in the usa should start at 100K per year.
I agree with you Zeta. Policemen and Firemen have one of the highest job related injury rates of any profession. http://www.malehealth.co.uk/userpage1.cfm?item_id=2540 (http://www.malehealth.co.uk/userpage1.cfm?item_id=2540). There job is definitely dangerous, they are just better prepared.
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anywho laz......... the national law enforcement officers memorial fund has been my charity of choice since the early 90's........so I may just be biased.... this is something I feel deeply about...and I don't see anyone changing my opinion.
get yourself to a bigger city...and ride with a cop for a day...or night. they have programs that allow this. try miami, NY, philly, atlanta, la, boston, DC........ just one ride with them for an 8 hour shift....and I bet you change your mind.
in philly or dc, i'd bet most wouldn't make it a full 8 hour shift with an officer
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cops, firemen, and ems risk it for us.
That's simply an inaccurate catch all. You're right, you are biased.
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you need to follow the link.. In most towns they can't even recall the last time a fireman or cop was killed..
The biggest cause of injury for cops here is that they are out of shape and they get back injuries from their utility belts. "getting out of the car" is the most often listed cause of police injury.
You really need to get up on a roof sometime in the heat of the summer and do a days work and then get back to me.
lazs
So that means your a roofer right? Where I live roofers make good money. Or are you a Doctor who specializes in Police work related injuries? Its hard to tell because you constantly babble. Babble as if you know everything.
And Laz the only one whining in this thread is you.
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I work with cops every day. Most do a great job and I'm grateful to them - I certaibly don't have the temperament for it.
That said, as a profession, I'm staggered how well paid they are in the larger urban and state agencies. I've a guy working with me who retired as a state trooper after 25 years services. He's in his early forties. He's on an inflation linked $80K pension for the rest of his life - 40+ years potentially - with health care for him and his family thrown in. Think how much you would have to have earned in the private sector to have had the 401K investments to match that. All for a mere 25 year service (during which he was earning a good salary).
Regarding the low-pay of the rural sheriffs in the original story and the inability of the communities to pay any more, that's just one more reason why the fragmented nature of law enforcement in the US makes no sense.
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24,000+ posts for laz. What percentage of those are utter non-sense?
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I work with cops every day. Most do a great job and I'm grateful to them - I certaibly don't have the temperament for it.
That said, as a profession, I'm staggered how well paid they are in the larger urban and state agencies. I've a guy working with me who retired as a state trooper after 25 years services. He's in his early forties. He's on an inflation linked $80K pension for the rest of his life - 40+ years potentially - with health care for him and his family thrown in. Think how much you would have to have earned in the private sector to have had the 401K investments to match that. All for a mere 25 year service (during which he was earning a good salary).
Regarding the low-pay of the rural sheriffs in the original story and the inability of the communities to pay any more, that's just one more reason why the fragmented nature of law enforcement in the US makes no sense.
ok...what then makes a football player worth millions/? what use do they really serve? who do they help?
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http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/director_staff/Public_information/publications/chaparral/chap1199.pdf (http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/director_staff/Public_information/publications/chaparral/chap1199.pdf)
O lord
I remember the ringing of the phone
At home asleep and all alone
I pushed away fatigue and answered the call
To learn the news of Terry’s fall
I jumped to my feet and grabbed my gun
But I was miles away and the deed had been done
I slumped to my knees and there I wept
Thinking of his child and a promise not kept
Murdered by a coward hiding in the wood
Arm in arm with Satan this monster stood
To take away a father, a brother, a friend
O lord I beg you make hell his end
He hated Terry’s badge and knew not the man
Does it make me wrong to pray him damned
For it has been six very long years
and the sound of Terry’s name still brings tears
Oh please help us, the ones left behind
Let it not be anger but peace we find
Miss you
I will not respond to some of the comments made about police officers as my response would be angry. I figured i would just share Terry,Thomas and Mark's story with those that had not heard of it. Terry was friend, a good father and a darn good cop. :salute Police, Fire, Ems, Troops All dangerous Jobs in a dangerous time.
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ok...what then makes a football player worth millions/? what use do they really serve? who do they help?
You're not comparing like with like. Crazy as it may be, footballers are paid the market rate for their services. If there weren't people willing to miliions, it wouldn't happen. There's also a much, much smaller number of people with the ability to be a top level footballer than to be a cop.
Cops, like all civil servants, work outside of commercial reality. What they get paid is based on some perception of the value of what they do that's untested by market forces. In the commercial world, you earn what people are willing to pay for your services. Civil servants get paid whatever their unions can convince the local / state / federal government to part with. Often that seems - to me - way too much once you factor in the cost of the benefits.
Its no surprise that government workers are amongst the last to receive final salary based pensions. These were long ago abandoned by most private industries as too expensive and replaced by money-purchase schemes. Government, however, is not burdened by the annoyance of having to make money to run their business, so these super-generous pensions continue to be funded by you and I.
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Nice to see the sanctimonious posts from folks who never did the job yet are fully qualified to demonize or belittle those that did.
For those who think the pay is extravagant try comparing it to the area for other skilled professional pay. Then take the comparison by the cost of living in the area.
Laz frankly your taking the area of the country with the most outrageous cost of living with commensurate pay to convince folks to work there is egregious. By far the majority of LEO's do not get that kind of wage or retirement benefits. LA, NY, Chicago are not the norm nor are they even the majority.
I retired, unwillingly due to disability, in 94. My pension is hardly in the 90k 80k or even in the 40k range even today and any raises in the pension are not guaranteed and they sure as hell are not based on a set percentage or even a cola. It all depends on if the retirement fund makes a profit or not. No profit, no raise. The same situation for other public employees. My wife got a $35.00 raise on her pension in the last 4 years. She was advised there would be no other raises possible until 2014 at the earliest depending on the economic situation of the fund.
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lets try to not get all emotional here.. I work with cops every day and like most of em and respect their service and.. I wouldn't put up with the crap they put up with.. most of it is political tho.
Now.. you guys are apple and oranges here.. you talk about the low pay for cops and high danger... you use big cities as an example.. big cities pay big money and big bennies to cops. It is more dangerous but.. for every cop that dies in that city... 20 or more roofers do.
for the entire country.. in 2004... 154 cops died on duty.. of that... more than half were traffic related.
The cops I know here were talking about a conference they attended in LA.. a bad part.. they were all armed... they said they did not know how, as citizens we went around in dangreous places every day that they would not go into without a gun while doing civilian living normal life stuff.
In small towns the risk is almost nothing and the pay is low.
Rich.. perhaps you should tell us about your salary and bennie package and see just what these good people think about what a raw deal you are getting... it seems that you are like some teachers and are extremely sensitive.
I respect police but they are not saints or noble or better than the rest of us or... in this case... deserve more compensation BASED ON RISK
and that is what this thread was about.. the risk is simply not that high.
lazs
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Even in big cities pensions, indeed not even wage increases, keep up with inflation. We are paid less then many suburban Dept.s despite the fact we work in crime plagued areas.
I know very few LEOs who retire and dont have to do somthing to add to their pensions. Almost all I know still working the car also work a 2nd, 3rd, or even 4th, pt job.
Whatever I am making as a big city street cop I am scraping by to live decently in a decent neighborhood and have to work several PT jobs to do it, along with a working wife. My house taxes alone, for a small 2&1/2 bedroom ranch, are $7,000 a year.
Im proud of my fellow POs. I'm proud of what they do. But I dont want this for my kid. Not the west side of the big city I dont and I'd prefer him not getting into Law Enforcement at all.
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You're not comparing like with like. Crazy as it may be, footballers are paid the market rate for their services. If there weren't people willing to miliions, it wouldn't happen. There's also a much, much smaller number of people with the ability to be a top level footballer than to be a cop.
Cops, like all civil servants, work outside of commercial reality. What they get paid is based on some perception of the value of what they do that's untested by market forces. In the commercial world, you earn what people are willing to pay for your services. Civil servants get paid whatever their unions can convince the local / state / federal government to part with. Often that seems - to me - way too much once you factor in the cost of the benefits.
Its no surprise that government workers are amongst the last to receive final salary based pensions. These were long ago abandoned by most private industries as too expensive and replaced by money-purchase schemes. Government, however, is not burdened by the annoyance of having to make money to run their business, so these super-generous pensions continue to be funded by you and I.
i know, and i undersztand that..it just pisses me off when the very same people that will pay $100 for a ticket to a football game and $5 for warm beer and $2 or 3 for cold hotdog while they're there complain about what cops get paid. although they're only human just like the rest of us, they DO keep things in as best order as they can. i know for certian that i could never do what they do.
<<S>>to them all.....
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Now.. you guys are apple and oranges here.. you talk about the low pay for cops and high danger... you use big cities as an example.. big cities pay big money and big bennies to cops. It is more dangerous but.. for every cop that dies in that city... 20 or more roofers do.
soooo..you're saying that at least 60 roofers have died in philly this year? i'll have to see if i can find stats on that for ya......
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and that is what this thread was about.. the risk is simply not that high.
lazs
tell thatr to the families of all the dead cops. tell that to the family of trhe cop that walked into a dunkin donuts a couple months ago and got shot in the face for no other reason than he was wearing a uniform.
a cops risk is never predictable. a roofers risk is VERY predicatble.
this is getting nuts.........
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the difference being roofers and other high risk employees risk their life on behalf of themselves. cops, firemen, and ems risk it for us.
every cop and teacher in the usa should start at 100K per year.
teachers are already well enough paid for the time they work.
If they actually worked year roundand got paid for year round work
They'd do just fine.
Besides. You know the score of teaachers pay when you get into the gig.
You also know that if your looking to make alot of money.
Teaching isnt the directoion you should aspire to.
Note : I have no complaints about what cops make Even though your average cop outside of a big city is probably less at risk then me as a contractor.
They have all sorts of other factors they have to deal with. that results in them earning every penny they get From dealing with idiots in the general public to the idiots they have to take orders from.
I personally woudnt have the patience to deal with either.
I'd probably start shooting my gun in both directions.
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deleted :salute
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Well I pretty much just lurk but this thread got me thinking. As a firefighter in northern New Jersey I have a problem with the police and fire are overpaid "line".
In a state where my property taxes are over 10k a year(they'd be cheaper if i lived in a town with paid fire believe it or not), and car insurance is $1000 per year per car, money goes fast.
That being said I can't even afford to live in the town that employs me. :O So my sister-in-law works IT in Manhatten making over 100k a year with 5 weeks vacation, justify that, oh and by the way no ones life is in her hands. If I make a mistake at work on the ambulance or at a fire someone other than me may die.
<S> Kazz
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First, I'm not sure where this thread was supposed to end up. Second, death is death and dangerous jobs are just that.
Police, Firemen and EMT work demanding jobs somethimes under conditions that require the most of their human ability to go above and beyond for their fellow citizens. We do them a great disservice not to recognise that fact as fellow citizens.
I just went through the fatalities reports for a number of states by occupation for 2006. Contact with vehicals in many given forms was the source of death for roughly half of the three professions mentioned above that died for that year. The largest number of deaths by occupation were for truckers and construction workers. A lot of sanitation workers seem to have fatal contact with vehicals also.
Police work and Firefighting rated by non fatal injury of 1 in every 100,000 ranks very high due to the nature of the occupation. But for deaths on the job based on the statisics, police and firefighters dont match up to truckers and construction workers.
As I pointed out, where was this thread supposed to go?
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HOLY COW :O I didn't mean to get such an uproar started but i think we are missing the small point in the article here. There are well paid police officers but the problem is with the smaller communities. They are being invaded by gangbangers/drug lords from the large cities and not only do they not have the resources, but if something happens they are on there own. Would you go out and risk your life day after day, for 10.50 an hour, knowing that the next car or person you stopped may wip a gun on you and shoot you?
Most of these small town cops need to work 2 jobs to make ends meet, they get no insurance from the cities they work for, and there own insurance won't cover them while on duty. IMO it's a shame that we can not protect the security of their families as they are protecting ours. :(
What this bill is supposed to do, if i understand it right, is to create a national standard of pay and benefits for ALL officers no matter where they work. The only thing i'm not clear on so far is how does a cop in a city that can only afford a 20k salary have the difference made up?
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everyone performs a service for the rest of us and there are always people who are underpaid. I just pointed out that fire and police using the danger of their jobs as the sole reason for more and more money is pretty silly in light of the fact that they don't have a particularly dangerous job compared to the most dangerous and that they get paid more than most of the people who have even more dangerous jobs.
How much should they be paid? how much do we need em? if they eat up 50% of the entire cities budget.. you might say that they are getting paid too much... that is not the case tho in some areas.. in some areas they are eating up 70-80% of every penny the city takes into the general fund.
How much would be enough? 90%? 100%?
mav.. sorry to hear you were disabled glad you got enough to survive on tho.. many professions get almost nothing for being entirely crippled.. some state or federal dole below the poverty level.
Like I said.. I would not be able to stand doing the job.. mostly for the politics.
lazs
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and... I am sorry that rich and his friends can't live on 90% of their income when they retire at age 50 and have to get another job to support their lifestyle.
I hate to break it to you rich but most of us have to make lifestyle changes when we retire. if you had put money away in an ira at the same time (me too) we would be better off..
I feel pretty lucky because I will get about 50% of my income when from my public service when I retire. I believe that some in my profession are way overpaid and some are way underpaid.. depends on where they live.
That being said... I have probly contibuted more to disabled vets and police benevolent funds than most of you who are ranting but unable to follow simple facts.
Like... if 20 cops die one year in philly or wherever that makes the whole profession more dangerous than say.. roofing or wildcatting or long haul trucking or even being a flagger for the highway dept.
lazs
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LAZS2 i got 10.50 here in my hand come over and let me plug ya in the shoulder ok?
I think i could understand the low pay in a small town, but absolutely no benefits is total B.S. IMO. It's not that the officers can not afford the benefits, most towns can not even get the benefits for there officers.
I applaud your giving, but then again i tend to believe you live in a large town so who knows if that money even went to where you gave it? Unless you live in a town of 4,000 or less you don't know what it's like for a cop on the beat out there. You don't shout on the radio and have 10 buddies come screaming to back you up. You shout and hope to god someone heard you and at least 1 cop shows.
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You really need to get up on a roof sometime in the heat of the summer and do a days work and then get back to me.
lazs
shingling?
spent the past 2 days doing just that. the pay more than compensates for the danger, up here anyway...
danger is obviously not the only aspect that affects pay, soooo
$10.50 isnt even enough to cover the other aspects of a cops work. a pay raise to cover the danger sounds more than reasonable to me.
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and... I am sorry that rich and his friends can't live on 90% of their income when they retire at age 50 and have to get another job to support their lifestyle.
90% of my income? Youv been sniffing those roofing fumes to long. Now your the Police retirements benefits expert?
"90% of my income" Haha, thats a good one.
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Laz,
I thought insurance companies for roofing contractors have started requiring they mount anchor points to the ridge line and safety cable workers with harnesses? I've been doing that for years because I used to climb walls in the sierras. Just seemed like the same dangers were there in both activities. Accidents happen in both cases.
By the way in most states I checked roofing fatalities were lower than police total fatalities. About equal to the number of police fatalities due to vehicals only. Not with homocides included. Maybe I remembered the insurance company bit correctly then.....
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I did it in my late teens ......here in florida...I was a helper who unloaded the shingles/tiles from the conveyor onto the roof...and then ran the magnet to pick up all the nails in the grass. hated it.......but working with fiberglass at another job was far more taxing...and dangerous. I actually used to have to bathe in acetone before I went home.
Thats not the same thing. Try working on that same roof all day long instead of doing 20 - 30 minutes work, then coming down and driving to the next stop.
I have worked on roofs all day long. My knees and lower back are shot from standing at an angle all day long. I've almost fallen off more than once.
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I thought insurance companies for roofing contractors have started requiring they mount anchor points to the ridge line and safety cable workers with harnesses?
OSHA requires that, and insurance companies probably do as well. Yet.....how are you going to hook up the safety line w/o first climbing up to the ridge line and hooking it up? And how are you going to get down from that roof with your safety equipment without walking back up to the ridge line and disconnecting it? There is no way around it, going up the first time and coming down the last time you are unprotected.
There was a siding guy out here that had his safety rope and harness on and he fell, he splatted because his harness failed.
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Yes people love to compare fire and police to the private sector. Think about private sector jobs where they are responsible for other peoples lives. What do they get paid? How many private sector jobs see death on a daily basis? Or must wash the blood of others off themselves before going home to their families? Roofer isn't showing up on that list, is it?
Danger to ones self isn't the only factor towards the pay. I agree there are more dangerous jobs out there other than firefighter, but how many include endangering yourself for others?
<S> Kazz
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everyone performs a service for the rest of us and there are always people who are underpaid. I just pointed out that fire and police using the danger of their jobs as the sole reason for more and more money is pretty silly in light of the fact that they don't have a particularly dangerous job compared to the most dangerous and that they get paid more than most of the people who have even more dangerous jobs.
How much should they be paid? how much do we need em? if they eat up 50% of the entire cities budget.. you might say that they are getting paid too much... that is not the case tho in some areas.. in some areas they are eating up 70-80% of every penny the city takes into the general fund.
How much would be enough? 90%? 100%?
mav.. sorry to hear you were disabled glad you got enough to survive on tho.. many professions get almost nothing for being entirely crippled.. some state or federal dole below the poverty level.
Like I said.. I would not be able to stand doing the job.. mostly for the politics.
lazs
wel...i perform a service to the community. i fix their cars. and it's dangerous too. i walk under 3,000# plus cars 3-5 times a day. i guess i should ask for a raise, huh?
what if the lift gives out and a car falls on me? o yea..there's as much chance of that as a skilled roofer falling off of a roof.
maybe look at it another way. we all pay insurance for our cars and homes(hopefully). and we all think it's to much(especially here in the PRNJ). but the one time that ya need it, it's there....in my case when my stang got totaled....insurance more than covered my car. it was there when i really needed it.
try looking at cops or firefighters the same. they get paid what they get paid. you may go years without needing either of them. but then one night, in the little hours, you wake up beause you hear a noise. you notice a funny smell......house burning. dial 911. police most likely therein less then 3 or 4 minutes. they help you get family out, and help the firefighters with your home. now at that moment they were worth 100 times what they get paid. while you and i sleep, their up doing their jobs.
they protect us. they help us. they're kinda like our great men and women in the armed forces......THEY do what the rest of us can't/don't/won't. i could never do their job. a burning building? eff that! i ain't goin in there!!!!!
a wife beater in my patrol car? chances are good that he'll need an ambulance before we get him to the station. if he makes it there, he may just find that broken step in the station.
they are to be admired. and they ARE underpaid.
ok....my tired rant is over...for now.......
<<S>>
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shingling?
spent the past 2 days doing just that. the pay more than compensates for the danger, up here anyway...
danger is obviously not the only aspect that affects pay, soooo
$10.50 isnt even enough to cover the other aspects of a cops work. a pay raise to cover the danger sounds more than reasonable to me.
A whole two days? LMAO
remember. not all roofs are created equal
I can show you a few roofs I probably couldnt come up with enough money to pay you to get you to walk on. Let alone work on.
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I think the teaching position is more underpaid than cops. If grade and high school teachers were paid higher salaries, I believe we would attract people who would be better educators.
I'm not knocking my police brethren, their pay is too low. It's not just the risk of life and limb they must deal with day to day. Many cops also have the psychological stress of dealing with the worst quality of civilization on an almost daily basis. Many of us wouldn't be able to be a cop for long for this reason alone. To remain stoic and detached from the slime of humanity after seeing the abuse they heap upon others, including cops, is harder than you might think. There is an pyscholigical price to pay for being a cop as well. I think one must consider this as well when debating whether or not cops are paid commensurately with their job duties. Mav, Rich, don't you think this is a reasonable assessment?
Steve
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Laz,
I thought insurance companies for roofing contractors have started requiring they mount anchor points to the ridge line
If they are I sure wish they'd leave them there after the job is completed. a few points on he way up wouldn't be a half bad idea either
Someone (like ME) might actually have to go back up there at some point to perform some maintenance on some of these screwball architectural designs.
Sure would be nice to have something to tie off onto rather then having to count on your memory of childhood learned prayers asking for divine intervention to keep one from sliding down the side of a rood then then dropping 40-60 feet down to the ground.
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If they are I sure wish they'd leave them there after the job is completed. a few points on he way up wouldn't be a half bad idea either
On new homes they do leave the anchor points because they can't exactly remove them since they are bolted to the trusses.
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I think Lazs is pretty spot on with his comments. I wonder what the number of convenience store workers killed was last year? Most don't make $10.50 a year or get bennies.
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A whole two days? LMAO
remember. not all roofs are created equal
I can show you a few roofs I probably couldnt come up with enough money to pay you to get you to walk on. Let alone work on.
i dont doubt that at all
it was directly in response to that qoute of lazs, nothing more, nothing less, and in regards to shingling the damn things...2 days aint much, but its enough to know the guys putting shingles on a low pitch roof on a hot day aren't suffering a whole lot more than the boys stripping forms off a foundation on that hot day...
i might be convinced to get on a 7/12 pitch...opportunity hasn't arisen yet, and the only two we've done in the past year and a half that were that steep we built on the ground.
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I think the teaching position is more underpaid than cops. If grade and high school teachers were paid higher salaries, I believe we would attract people who would be better educators.
I'm not knocking my police brethren, their pay is too low. It's not just the risk of life and limb they must deal with day to day. Many cops also have the psychological stress of dealing with the worst quality of civilization on an almost daily basis. Many of us wouldn't be able to be a cop for long for this reason alone. To remain stoic and detached from the slime of humanity after seeing the abuse they heap upon others, including cops, is harder than you might think. There is an pyscholigical price to pay for being a cop as well. I think one must consider this as well when debating whether or not cops are paid commensurately with their job duties. Mav, Rich, don't you think this is a reasonable assessment?
Steve
well....i don't think there's really anything wrong with the teachers...although i could be wrong.
I'd say that more of the problem in schools comes from lack of respect from the kids. we all used to be some sort of bad in school, but when a teacher said something, we all did it. now, they cannot do anything. the kids don't listen, and the parents back their kids, rather than teach them any respect. then you have kids attacking teachers in some places....so..the problem there is more parents than kids. i know some teachers make piss poor pay....but some make killer good pay too.
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2 days aint much, but its enough to know the guys putting shingles on a low pitch roof on a hot day aren't suffering a whole lot more than the boys stripping forms off a foundation on that hot day.
It's a whole lot hotter on that roof than it is in the foundation pit. Those boys stripping forms in the foundation pit don't have to worry about falling and breaking their necks either.
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o yea..there's as much chance of that as a skilled roofer falling off of a roof.
All it takes is one misstep for a roofer.....just one. Or to step on a piece of plywood that has the wrong side up w/o noticing it. Yes, there is a wrong side to be up for plywood. One side is rough, the other side is very slick. Step on the slick side and if you don't have a safety harness you will go splat on the ground. I personally almost bit it one time because of that.
You have almost zero chance of that hydraulic lift giving out.
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<S!> Roofers
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,
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rich.. I am not a roofer. I have done it in the past for a roof here and there.
I don't know what you get at retirement. I know that if you are on 3% at 50 it is possible for you to get 90% of your pay at age 50.. that is... a 50 year old man getting 90% of a pretty good salary. I know that in most cities.. health and safety (cops and fire) get a much better package than every other public employee.
It would be very difficult for me to be a cop... It is too political.. too military and not enough freedom for me but.. if I was gonna pick a job... cop, late night 7 eleven clerk or roofer.. I would go with the cop every time. Why get shot for ten bucks an hour tho.. not as a cop or as a clerk.
Police and fire get take all the way up to 80% of a cities general fund.. what would be "fair" to you guys? 90%? 100%?
Police in small towns don't get compensated too well but.. who does? what public employee in that town makes more besides the federal ones like postmaster?
If you are a cop you can make 100k a year and 3% at 50 retirement in big cities in a lot of places. you can choose to work there or in a less dangerous place that pays less.
lazs
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All it takes is one misstep for a roofer.....just one. Or to step on a piece of plywood that has the wrong side up w/o noticing it. Yes, there is a wrong side to be up for plywood. One side is rough, the other side is very slick. Step on the slick side and if you don't have a safety harness you will go splat on the ground. I personally almost bit it one time because of that.
You have almost zero chance of that hydraulic lift giving out.
i'd agree with ya on the above ground lifts....not the 30 year old inground units though.
that whol rant wasn't aimed at putting roofewrs down though..
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well....i don't think there's really anything wrong with the teachers...although i could be wrong.
You are
but some make killer good pay too
not any grade school or high school teachers you don't, and this is specifically whom I mentioned.
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Steve,
You are correct in regards to some of the BS we had / have to deal with. Everything from simple verbal abuse because we pulled over someone who believes they are entitled to drive any way they want to having to fight for your life when you walk into a situation that you had no prior knowledge about before you got there. There are tons of calls that tell you to expect one thing and it turns out to be something entirely different. Kind of like going to a loud party call and finding out it's a major fight with weapons when you get there.
To date I have yet to see any roofer complain that the roof attacked them, assaulted them, threatened them or sued them. There has yet to be an arrest of a roof for premeditated homicide to my knowledge. I also have not heard of a roof actually stalking or planning an ambush of a roofer. Kind or like apples and pea gravel analogy IMO.
I also haven't seen any roofer going into a burning building to rescue a truss or support beam much less give it CPR.
Laz,
You keep mentioning this mythical 90% pension. Please provide the name of the department. I'd like to contact them and ask about the retirement you are talking about. I've already explained how ours works in AZ. so I am really curious how you can get a retirement that is not capped at a max benefit percentage. So far I have never heard of one that exceeds 75% and that's after 32 years. You might work longer but the retirement percentage does not go up.
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First of all... please keep in mind that ANY law enforcement agency and/or officer is REACTIONARY. If you rely on the police/sheriff for protection... you are only fooling yourself. Have on hand on your gun and the other free to dial 911. ;)
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Teachers do not make enough for the amount of BS they have to deal with. My wife is a high school English and reading teacher. The problem for the most part is not the teachers, it is the schools, admins, students and parents. Because the teachers are on the front lines they catch all the negativity.
My wife is an outstanding teacher. I am often awed by her dedication to her job and her kids. When she is not teaching she is going to school to get new certifications, working on her masters and this summer doing a nation wide writing project, which is going to give her new/better avenues of approach when it comes to to her lesson planing and teaching.
I normally look forward to her summers off we get to spend a lot of time together. However this year she has been in school working on her masters, getting new certifications, learning Spanish, getting the ESOL certifications to go with it and next month she is going to Mexico to see how classrooms are taught down there so she can better relate to her new, non-English speaking students that are flooding the schools here from Mexico.
She puts all this time and effort into her work and she makes just over 40K a year. On top of that it is dangerous. They just shut down the alternative school here, so there is no where to send the violent and problem children. On top of that they have to earn a certain number of "credits" in order to be expelled.
Last year in my wife's school there was a stabbing, a shooting in front of the school, three kids were caught with guns on different occasions, kids set the wooded area behind the school on fire as a prank and several teachers cars were vandalized on the first day of school. On top of all of that, my wife had three students get up in her face, one student threaten to find out where she lived and kill her and another student pushed over her desk. Lucky for my wife she is a pretty popular teacher and the kids that got in her face to threaten her were stopped by some rather big guys from the football team. Meanwhile it took the campus police 10 mins to show up behind the admin that took five minutes. That's four minutes too long in my opinion.
If you want to blame someone for the schools being the way they are, blame the parents. Because most of the parents my wife deals with start talking about lawsuits whenever their kid is accused of doing something wrong. This causes the admin to let the whole issue go and the cycle continues. The blame chain should be; parents, students, admins, teachers. Instead for whatever reason it goes the other way around. Go figure..
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It's a whole lot hotter on that roof than it is in the foundation pit. Those boys stripping forms in the foundation pit don't have to worry about falling and breaking their necks either.
all things equal, not by much, if at all. get any amount of breeze going then the roofers will feel it as well.
and your right, 8 - 14 inches of room to walk on is more than enough for anyone to walk on, and unless we land wrong or catch a tie in the wrong spot on the way down, even if we do fall, we wont get too badly hurt.
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See Rules #4, #5
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ah yes.. someone had to chime in with the saintly teacher post. I always envision them on the cross or with hands clasped in prayer and an aura of light around them!
the are the highest part time workers on the planet.. they have our kids for most of their waking lives and yet they blame everyone else in the world for their continued and constant.. and getting worse... failure to teach.
I would be a little more sympathetic about it if I heard at least one teacher admit that they have a part in the failure to teach.
I would feel less bitter if I didn't see catholic school teachers doing a good job with a lot less.. in larger classrooms even.
If teachers feel that they are not making enough money then leave. If they feel that they are not really part time workers.. if they feel that they "really work far more hours than show" then...prove it.
I see em leave the school long before I leave work. I see em getting there far latter.. I see em getting every holiday under the sun off.. I see em getting breaks all day long.
I see only one in 900 ever being fired for being incompetent... hey! maybe they are saints after all!!
Now.. if they can't get their work done under those conditions then I would say first.. work a full 8 hour day with half hour for lunch and two 15 minute breaks and 11 holidays or less a year and 2 weeks vacation.
If they still can't get the days work done then stay over ... at the school.. and do the work and get paid overtime.. Those who can never get their work done get fired.
lazs
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ah yes.. someone had to chime in with the saintly teacher post. I always envision them on the cross or with hands clasped in prayer and an aura of light around them!
You didn't comprehend my post. I'm saying the teaching position is underpaid. There are plenty of bad teachers out there and they keep their jobs because teachers are hard to come by. As I said, imagine the kind of high quality people we would attract if the position was higher paying. This too hard for you to grasp?
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Sorry guys, I didn't read all 5 pages but wanted to chime in. I'm sure Rich, Mav and other LEO's have chimed in but I'll add as this hits very much at home for me.
I work a full time job for a major cable ISP Wednesday through Saturday. Sunday night and Monday night I work for a small town police department. I make close to 20 bucks an hour at my full time job with great bene's. The police department I work for pays me 10 bucks an hour as a part time employee. No insurance, no life insurance and no pension (part time). I am looking to get back in LE full time (was full time for almost 6 years from 1996-2001) while I'm still young (32). I have been applying to Oklahoma SO's and PD's. Right now, I am waiting anxiously to hear from an Indian Nation Tribal PD. I have a good feeling about this one. Anyway, I curiously asked my current chief if I decided to go back to full time with this current agency, if he' hire me. He said, "In a heartbeat". Pay starts at $1700 bucks a month and increases to 2k after 120 days, then to $2200 after 1 year. Medical coverage is free to employee and family after 90 days and access to the Oklahoma Police Officers Pension after 20 years. No 401k or other incentives. Uniforms are modestly supplied. Any extras I would have to purchase.
I never made more than $1500 bucks a month in my prior 6 years in Oklahoma Law Enforcement.
Something needs to be done. Small towns get the crap that the big cities turn away. Rural LE is sub-par IMO because they take what they can get and hope they stick around longer than the 1 year you must stay after the agency gets you certified. People suffer, good cops suffer and the entire thread of society suffers IMO. Here in Oklahoma, most of the medium to large city agencies require either an Associates or Bachelors degree. This is also a very bad thing but a topic for another thread. The big city's get most of the good cops because the smaller rural area agencies cannot afford them.
It sad.
*Disclaimer* I am NOT calling all rural cops bad or second rate. I work with and have worked with some very fine rural officers. I am pointing that broad brush mostly at leadership and some bad seeds I have come across in my time.
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Actually Repo the guys who actually are the Police, you, me, Mav, the others, havnt said much of anything in this thread. The only point I made was that higher salaries usually point to a higher cost of living locally and doesnt mean more spending power.
Other then that this has become just another Police thread for Lazs to twist with his Love,Hate thing he has for LawEnforcement.
Internet Policeaholicism is an obsessive/compulsive disorder Laz. Did you know that?
BTW stupid I reported you for that.
I had a leak in my roof once, I called the roofer and withen a very short time he came out and fixed the problem.
I had a maniac with a desert eagle running loose around my apartment complex and the pigs never showed.
Always have a 12ga. and a bucket handy
S! to roofers
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oh lordy, thin skin much?
Bad cop no donut
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As per the original issue of Rural vs. Urban salaries, I'd like to point out this; You can really see the difference with PD departments, because I believe that just about every City and town in the U.S. has one. And, we also have county, state, and Federal Law enforcement, but since we haven't gone into those areas yet, so Municipal PD's it is...You see a big difference in salaries' mainly because, well, you have a massive cost of living difference between those areas, as well as a factor for more 'severe' duty. (Think the difference between South-central L.A. and a 2,000-4,000 population town in Iowa, for example.) In L.A., for instance, Rent's there can start at 1500$ a month for a one-bedroom apartment, for example, and what does that get you in Iowa? A dollar goes' farther in rural areas, and it has for a long time.
Hey, the salary difference goes across just about all occupations. Union scale wage for most of the people in my trade (Construction equipment operation) is close to 37$ an hour. But, you go to other states', like Washington, Colorado, Arizona, etc. It drops' to about 17-20$. And it does that for a lot of trades. You might make more in the big city, but you're gonna have to spend more, as well.
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I agree with you Frode and it's true that a dollar, especially spent on rent/mortgage will go further in a small town as opposed to a larger city. I would like to take issue with your other point though because I believe it is a frame of mind that many people have a misconception about.
When I work, I am alone in the city. I patrol a town of about 2500 by myself. My closest backup is, at best, 15-20 minutes away. Believe me, I've called them and it seems like a heck of alot more. There is absolutely no difference in the clientèle that I deal with as opposed to a big city cop. Just the volume and amount of backup I go in with. I would argue that rural law enforcement, especially that of rural Sheriff's Departments, is much more dangerous than it's urban counterpart.
Rural policing is different than urban policing in many aspects too. While a city cop has a large jurisdictional area to contain, it also allows them to be more proactive due to abundance of support. I have very little time to ascertain, say, your driving state (intoxication) as you can quickly get through my city. Where as an urban city cop has much more distance in his jurisdiction to make this judgment call. Thats why I will be a little less lenient on certain probable causes than a big city cop would be. When I am on shift, everyone who cares, knows exactly where I am in town.
Another example; I get a 911 call from the communications center (operated by the county SO in the neighboring city (county seat)) of a domestic disturbance in progress. Not one call, but several from concerned neighbors. My response time is minimal. I arrive, find wife and two kids outside crying. She tells me that "He is inside tearing the place apart". He has kicked the front door in. She says he threw her across the room but her and the kids got out unharmed. She thinks there may be a gun inside. Oh yeah, there is also a baby in the crib that she was unable to get to. What are my options? I could (a) go in, hoping to God that he has not armed himself and is bent now on hurting whomever comes through the door. I could (b) stay outside and call for what backup I could get resulting in a long standoff situation ensuing or setting myself up for ambush while waiting.
In this situation, I entered, weapon drawn and made contact with the subject in a back bedroom. He had a pistol. He was distraught, crying. At gunpoint I called for backup and spoke to the subject in an understanding tone. Once the subject found out I was not there to harm him but, rather, to help him, he put the gun away and came out peacefully. I was lucky. Things don't usually go that well.
Bottom line is this. Don't let the size of the city fool you. Crime, or the malcontent of our society, is everywhere. There are always people who despise authority. There will forever be bad guys to fight the good guys. The size, financial status or stature will never be an accurate identifier of danger.
:aok
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ill add a little bit to this one
there are good and bad in all, i have met some cool cops, (trust me when i say i have probably been arrested more than any one on these boards), but what sux is when you have a bad cop/correction officer, its about the worst, because they are in a position of power. they think they are better then "civs." and have no compunction about taking out someone.
when you have a bad roofer you might get a little water on your head while you sleep.
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Rich, ignore the guy. He probably got a speeding ticket and is mad. :D
Very interesting topic. This reminds me of the "discussions" my sister and I have when we see each other. She's a teacher and I'm a LEO. She gets the summer, holidays, and weekends off. I just ended up working 31 hours of OT to cover for a sergeant who's kid is in the hospital with leukemia and for a couple of people on vacation. Don't get me wrong, I'm not complaining. I love my job and take the good with the bad.
Repoman, you were very lucky. When I started out, help was always 20 minutes away. But it was the best training I ever had. It taught me self-reliance. After 2 years of that, I got into a great town with better pay and working with others. I know some cops that look down on the local part-timers because they don't have the same training in some cases. I give all of the small town cops all the credit in the world! Tough job and until you've been in their shoes, a person will always have a difficult time understanding the job.
just my .02 cents.
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Repoman, you were very lucky. When I started out, help was always 20 minutes away. But it was the best training I ever had. It taught me self-reliance. After 2 years of that, I got into a great town with better pay and working with others. I know some cops that look down on the local part-timers because they don't have the same training in some cases. I give all of the small town cops all the credit in the world! Tough job and until you've been in their shoes, a person will always have a difficult time understanding the job.
just my .02 cents.
Yes Obie, very lucky. Especially if you'd a seen his priors. I have the gift of gab and the insatiable talent of knowing when to use it. It's gotten me out of a jam more than once my brother, more....than....once ;)
I think it is funny when full time officers puff their chest because they 'think' they have more training than I. I'm not in this to 'one up' anyone so I let bygones be bygones. :D
ink, bud, I feel for ya. There are many cops, and especially detention/correction officers, that like to make their status known. I've stopped off duty guys before. And, I'm a lenient guy most of the time. The ones who immediately flash a badge are the ones that usually get a lecture from me. If you mention it while we discuss a few things AFTER I get your license and insurance, thats another thing, especially if you're packin.
All in all, there are all kinds on our side just as their are all kinds in your professions. I will most likely become a PIO somewhere cause I like to educate and talk. Some just want to be left alone with their strawberry filled crawler. To each his own.
:aok
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Rich, ignore the guy. He probably got a speeding ticket and is mad. :D
nope no tickets here :rofl :rofl :rofl
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I just pointed out that fire and police using the danger of their jobs as the sole reason for more and more money is pretty silly in light of the fact that they don't have a particularly dangerous job compared to the most dangerous and that they get paid more than most of the people who have even more dangerous jobs.
How much should they be paid? how much do we need em? if they eat up 50% of the entire cities budget.. you might say that they are getting paid too much... that is not the case tho in some areas.. in some areas they are eating up 70-80% of every penny the city takes into the general fund.
How much would be enough? 90%? 100%?
lazs
You are talking to the wrong cops and firefighters, or you thats the only part you choose to hear.
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(http://usera.imagecave.com/uptown41/our_badges.jpg)
Cops deserve all the money they can get. They have a tough job and my respect. I know I wouldn't do what they do for that kind of money. :salute
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I have no doubt that some cops in small towns do not get paid enough. My guess is that no one in that town gets paid enough tho if they work for the people.
I am not "talking" to cops when I say that in kalifornia at least.. the cops and fire eat up about 50-80% of their cities general fund. I don't know what it is in other areas.. you guys who think your cops and firemen are not getting enough need to find out for yourselves. it is simple enough.. just look at your cities budget and then come back and tell me we aren't paying enough for police and fire.
rich.. I don't have a "love hate" relationship with cops.. I am not as sensitive and emotional as you seem to be.. I have more of a strong like/mild dislike relationship with em for the most part. I don't try to make them out to be more... or less.. than they are. I understand more than you think about em.. I do understand the action junkie part and I do understand just wanting to make a living part. I don't understand the quasi military part. I understand that seeing the worst of people thing. I can imagine the toll that would take and want no part of it.
I don't really need em tho. Not really.. I do need em to do the report so that I can take care of the problem. I think it is nice that they are driving around and that they catch someone red handed from time to time.. I believe that they are a deterent.
For the most part.. I believe that the stupid laws we keep passing make it so that cops are a negative in most peoples lives. seatbelt tickets.. cell phone tickets.. helmet tickets.. smoking tickets.. all kinds of laws that are simply a negative to most. Most of us never see a cop do us any good.. only come to take reports and tell us nothing can be done.. yet.. they are right there to give us a ticket for some minor traffic infraction that causes no harm except to cost us hundreds or thousands (including insurance).
lazs
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I am not "talking" to cops when I say that in kalifornia at least.. the cops and fire eat up about 50-80% of their cities general fund. I don't know what it is in other areas.. you guys who think your cops and firemen are not getting enough need to find out for yourselves. it is simple enough.. just look at your cities budget and then come back and tell me we aren't paying enough for police and fire.
lazs
I have not found anywhere around here where public saftey is using 50% of a citys budget. I dont go hungry by any means but when you look at the services we provide with the amount of resources we have. The city I work for is getting alot of bang for its buck. Every where is different though.
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slash.. I have no idea what portion police and fire eat up in your area.. I am sure you can find out and tell me.
I do know that in the area I live in.. that salary surveys of which I have been a part show 50-80% or more of the general fund going to safety.. fire and police.
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/03/10/MNFKVEV4L.DTL
This is fairly common and is partly due to the citizens asking for more and more services from fire and police. and.. because of mandated services. Just as it is true in all of the public sector including my job.. what took one man now takes 5 because of regulation. extra certification requires extra pay to attract the people.. that sort of thing.
I am not saying that the individual public servant is to blame.
lazs
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:aok
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You seem to be kind of obsessed with it all Laz.
You should have just come on the job yourself. Then you'd have realized 3/4 of what you say it hogwash.
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This is pretty sad at it's best point.
http://streator.mediacomtoday.com/community/news/story/index.php?source=National&id=D91HKLO00&pd=20080626
10.50 an hour to risk, and lose your life?! That's pathetic. :( Hope that bill gets passed and maybe these men and women protecting us will get the pay they deserve.
10.50 and hour. You can go work at a factory for 11.00 an hour. And get regular pay raises. Nothing more than a high school education and you can get paid more than a rural deputy/police officer. I wonder how much the local mayor, county commisioners get paid. I'll bet they took care of themselves.
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10.50 and hour. You can go work at a factory for 11.00 an hour. And get regular pay raises. Nothing more than a high school education and you can get paid more than a rural deputy/police officer. I wonder how much the local mayor, county commisioners get paid. I'll bet they took care of themselves.
With municipal/County administration, It's not just their pay. They set themselves' up some great bennies, as well. New cars every year, Free cell phones, junkets, etc, etc....And a lot of that crap doesn't show as going to the admin., they can hide it in things' like General funds...
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rich.. I have rode with cops but felt a little unarmed.. I would be glad to ride with you on any nite you say so long as I can have the same equipment you have.
One night years ago I rode with the locals on a raid because it was city property that was stolen and they had a lead and wanted me there to identify any equipment that I could.. we raided a lot of crankster houses and one out in the boonies.
I just talked to the cop again about that and we were laughing about it.. I was standing behind a tree when they pounded on the door at one place.. he asked me why I was hiding and I told him that it was a pretty bad spot to not have a gun or vest and he laughed.. I said.. "laugh it up chuckles but as you are going down please toss me your gun"
I get along fine with most cops and we kid about the things I am saying here.... slash and most of the cops here I would probly get along fine with... probly not you tho.. you seem pretty sensitive and humorless..
Or maybe.. possibly.. it is the medium.. we never come off the same in print.
Those here that have met me... and there are plenty.. will say, I think, that I am pretty much the same here as in person.. I guess it just comes out better in person.
Sorry if I have offended you and I would be glad to ride with you any night in any situation but... sorry if I don't trust you to defend me.. I would need the ability to defend myself (or you) if it went bad.
lazs
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I get along fine with most cops and we kid about the things I am saying here.... slash and most of the cops here I would probly get along fine with... probly not you tho.. you seem pretty sensitive and humorless..
Or maybe.. possibly.. it is the medium.. we never come off the same in print.
Lazs2--King of the non-rebuttable statements.
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Yaknow Laz I woke up this morning and found a note my wife left me. I checked the news and found it to be true. A personal friend of mine was killed LOD last night. He was probably the 9'th or 10'th guy Ive personaly known who was killed LOD, I'd have to check how many actually. And he was probably the last guy I would say could get his gun taken away and then be killed with it. He spent many years as a tactical Officer in some of the same projects I worked.
The 9'th or 10'th at least. And hundreds busted up, shot up, ran over, knifed, beat on.........
I dont know why Im telling you this, why Im even bothering. But I just woke up and found out my friend is dead. His name was Rick Francis and he was a better man then all of us put together.
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Yaknow Laz I woke up this morning and found a note my wife left me. I checked the news and found it to be true. A personal friend of mine was killed LOD last night. He was probably the 9'th or 10'th guy Ive personaly known who was killed LOD, I'd have to check how many actually. And he was probably the last guy I would say could get his gun taken away and then be killed with it. He spent many years as a tactical Officer in some of the same projects I worked.
The 9'th or 10'th at least. And hundreds busted up, shot up, ran over, knifed, beat on.........
I dont know why Im telling you this, why Im even bothering. But I just woke up and found out my friend is dead. His name was Rick Francis and he was a better man then all of us put together.
sorry for your lose Rich, words cant help.
all i can say is stay strong.
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Sorry for the loss of your friend.
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Damn. Real sorry to hear about that Rich.
Hang tough.
Obie
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sorry for your loss.. I think it is fortunate that so few cops are killed on the job these days and we can at least be thankful for that.
lazs
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Thanks for the words fellas. Believe me it helps.
The aggravating thing is there is just nothing I can do right now. Im sitting here playing this game feeling guilty about it but theres nothing else I can do until the funeral. The family is besieged enough.
I havnt seen him in a year or two but worked steady with him for a few years. 28 years on and he gets shot in the head on a bus by a female who got to his gun at 0200 within sight of the station house. Ive talked with a few guys and everyone is just stunned. Man he was a great guy, well liked by everyone.
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Thanks for the words fellas. Believe me it helps.
The aggravating thing is there is just nothing I can do right now. Im sitting here playing this game feeling guilty about it but theres nothing else I can do until the funeral. The family is besieged enough.
I havnt seen him in a year or two but worked steady with him for a few years. 28 years on and he gets shot in the head on a bus by a female who got to his gun at 0200 within sight of the station house. Ive talked with a few guys and everyone is just stunned. Man he was a great guy, well liked by everyone.
dude....i hadn't checked in this thread in a bit.....i am soooo sorry to hear about your buddy.....i don't know what else to say....... :salute