Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Axis vs Allies => Topic started by: TheBug on June 30, 2008, 10:40:26 AM
-
Campaign Series- North Africa
Aircraft/vehicles with a rarity of 1.0 will be available at all fields. Aircraft with a rarity factor less than one will be assigned to that percentage of airbases (rounded down) by the Side CO. For example an aircraft with a rarity of .5 will be limited to ˝ the starting bases.
WEEK 1:
Bf109e – 1.0
Bf109f - .25
Mc202- 1.0
Ju87- 1.0
Ju88- .33
P40e- 1.0
Hurri I – 1.0
Spit V - .25
M3 -1.0
….. and so on.
For the next three weeks the time line will advance. Planes like the 109f will become less rare, new planes with an appropriate rarity factor will be introduced ( Fw190a-5, F4f, and P38G for example). At the same time the older models will begin to become rarer due to their being phased out.
Base Capture will be on and will require 60 troops to take a base. The only tool provided for capture will be the M3. There will be no C47s. (** Although this may prove to be too limiting**)
Each base will be assigned victory points based upon their historical significance and also in-game strategic value. All rear bases will require a specified path of front bases to be captured in order for a side to gain their victory points. (Although they can still be captured in any order)
Down times will start out at 30 mins for hangars, fuel, Ord, radar, troops and town. Strats will have a fixed down time of 24 hrs. Destruction of strats will effect the down times of other buildings. Each day at a specific time (let’s say 11pm EST) an average will be calculated for each strat’s destruction and then at the end of the week a total average will be calculated from all days combined. For each respective strat the corresponding building’s down time will be increased by two minutes for each 10% of destruction. (** Think this will be have to be calculated off the base 30 mins each week to keep it from getting too far out of hand)
Each side CO may also place 3 supply depots at a base no further than 2 sectors from an enemy base. These are placed at the start of each week to allow for adjusting of the front lines. For each supply depot captured the losing side has a +5 min downtime addition to troops, ord and fuel. The capturing side gains a -5 min decrease to troops, ord and fuel down time.
Radar will match current Arena settings.
The winning side will be the one with the most victory points at the end of four weeks.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This is just a very rough framework of something I was thinking of. I am not certain if there are some setup limitations imposed by the game that will prevent some of the things I’ve mentioned above. Nor am I claiming that it is very polished. Just wanted to throw it out there for something to chew on. I am shooting for the best blend of action and the ability to “impact” the war. The series can then be used to apply to different fronts/timeframes. Open to any and all constructive criticisms. :)
-
Excellent idea. :aok
-
:aok
-
:aok looks fun
-
:aok
Like the sound of that.
-
I like the rolling plane set idea. But except for the higher number of troops to capture the base, I don' tlike any of your base capture changes. Neither using just M3's or having a particular route to capture.
-
I really like the rarity factor in available aircraft. Excellent idea. Also like the rolling plane set. :aok
I think any system needs to work automatically on a day-to-day basis. It sounds like your plan needs an admin to do a bunch of calculations and update settings. I don't think this would be maintainable and perhaps too much of a burden on admins.
Not sure about the lack of C47s. Some bases may be too far to drive and we probably don't want 8 players on a side in M3s to take a base. It would take too much from the air combat side.
I like your downtimes.
I like the concept of only have a subset of bases that can be captured but not all. Assume each side starts with 20 bases. Have the front 10 be capturable for each side. It becomes a bit like capture the flag. You need to catpure and hold as many of these that you can. The team with the most capturable bases at the end wins. This prevents steam rolling all of a sides bases. This is the same as your suggestion except that the rear bases can't be captured to avoid an end-game issue like the last capture war. You have the rare plane issue though. I assume a captured base would get the 1.0 planes. If you have a rare plane and the base gets catpured, then you recapture it, you lose the rare plane as there may not be a way to automatically track that.
Venom
-
I like the rolling plane set idea. But except for the higher number of troops to capture the base, I don' tlike any of your base capture changes. Neither using just M3's or having a particular route to capture.
There is no particular route to capture, only the scoring of victory points. A base captured in the enemy rear and completely surrounded is of no value to a capturing side historically. That being said though you can capture any bases in any order, just by week's end you need to be able to trace a "supply line" to them to claim the victory points. Although by capturing it you at least deny the enemy from claiming those points. I myself question the feasiblity of just m3's for capture, but I worry about too fluid of a front line. Maybe the 60 troops is the answer and c47s will be necessary.
-
I really like the rarity factor in available aircraft. Excellent idea. Also like the rolling plane set. :aok
I think any system needs to work automatically on a day-to-day basis. It sounds like your plan needs an admin to do a bunch of calculations and update settings. I don't think this would be maintainable and perhaps too much of a burden on admins.
Not sure about the lack of C47s. Some bases may be too far to drive and we probably don't want 8 players on a side in M3s to take a base. It would take too much from the air combat side.
I like your downtimes.
I like the concept of only have a subset of bases that can be captured but not all. Assume each side starts with 20 bases. Have the front 10 be capturable for each side. It becomes a bit like capture the flag. You need to catpure and hold as many of these that you can. The team with the most capturable bases at the end wins. This prevents steam rolling all of a sides bases. This is the same as your suggestion except that the rear bases can't be captured to avoid an end-game issue like the last capture war. You have the rare plane issue though. I assume a captured base would get the 1.0 planes. If you have a rare plane and the base gets catpured, then you recapture it, you lose the rare plane as there may not be a way to automatically track that.
Venom
Settings will be updated weekly by the staff. A set of trusted moderators can assigned the task of taking screenshots each night at 11pm to register the destruction. Actual arena setting will only change once each week. The gathering of strat destruction daily is to keep from making targeting them for the first part of the week a useless venture.
All bases would be open for capture, I would prefer to limit steam-rolling by amount of troops. But if some very rear bases could be fixed to one side that might be a good idea. Again I am not certain of the setup limitations for an arena. Which also applies to the capture and recapture of bases and their planesets. I don't know how that works. I would say best thing would be to just set them back to 1.0 planes. Would need staff input for that.
-
Having the rare plane in the rear fields might be a plus. The deeper you push into enemy territory, the harder it gets as you will run into the better planes more. We need a system which presents more challenges to the side doing well rather than making it easier for them. This will help keep balanced game play and keep interest high.
I also prefer shorter wars until a good system is worked out. Based on past experience, it seems the first week is typically the best. You can't correct issues if you are in a multiweek war.
Venom
-
I share the same concerns as Venom, but I like the concept.
Maj OldBull
XO Avengers
-
Like the concept there Bugster. :aok
A few opinions of mine:
1. With the 60 troop capture - you just about are going to have to be able to have the C-47. Still - disable it for the first week and see what happens. Might be more historical as the weeks go by you are going to get aircraft with a better ability to carry ord and have an easier time of taking bases.
2. I think one of the big things people didn't like about the "WAR" was the lack of planes at most bases. One other option might be to REALLY crank up the hardness of FH & BH's where a really consorted effort would have to be put on to take them out but make it where having FUEL & ORD down at a field would come into play more. I player could get up an aircraft at a damaged field but might have to fly it to another field to fuel and load up before going to attack. Would be pretty historical I think.
3. Liked Fork's weather - would be cool if it could change every few hours or at least everyday. Got to keep the wind. :aok
4. I know I will catch it for saying this - but setting everyones "Perkies" to zero and then setting them for certain types of aircraft and vehicles might be a way to regulate them also.
5. Like your method of scoring.
6. If the map has any CV's - they need to stay in control of either the AVA Staff or Side CO's ONLY. They need to be there for the battle but we don't need them run up on the beach by the porkers. Make a penalty to bring it so close to the coast. IMHO, wouldn't hurt to let the "Blue Plane" pilots get in on the flying when there is a possibility for them to do so.
7. LASTLY... you spoke of having this go 4 weeks - nothing wrong there but IMHO while we are breaking new ground for the AVA would should also make room for new guys coming into the arena that want to fly "Historically" and not the mish-mash of the MA's. I would propose that we have a "BREAK" in between the two haves of anything like this or the current "BOA" as just a pressure relief or for the sides to do some planning, etc. A short one week historical set-up like we used to have in the CT/AVA would be good and fun for everyone involved on each side.
Again, good well thought out plan. :salute
-
:aok Overall a great idea!
I like the rolling plane set idea. But except for the higher number of troops to capture the base, I don' tlike any of your base capture changes. Neither using just M3's or having a particular route to capture.
Using M3's makes intercepting them easier because of limited spawn points. Toss a couple goons in at least to make it interesting.
-
Thanks for the feedback guys <S>
Seems adding the C47 is the way to go. The number of troops at 60 is really just an example or a starting point and may need to be adjusted to get a front that will move with coordinated efforts but not be impregnable.
Agree with increased hardness of hangars, they can be destroyed but will take a strong effort.
Weather would hopefully be implemented, but since it takes a staffer to adjust I didn't want to impose.
Don't like perks, but that's just my opinion.
CVs would stay under staff control.
I'm thinking, and maybe a little grandly, that this setup once polished and honed would become what the AvA is to be. Maybe four weeks is too much, cut it back to three?? I'm not sure. But the idea is to give the fun and well rounded action of the MA, coupled with the historical planesets of the AvA and a strategic flavor lacking in the MA. So the setup will be fresh every 2-3-4 weeks??? We can fall back on Old school CT planesets, Finland, North Africa, Overlord/Cobra, Italy, etc.. But weave them into this new framework, that would generate a greater interest to support the larger numbers. I'm not thinking this is to be a setup tried every now and then. I'm thinking this will be(once polished by player input and actual testing of course) the AvA of the future.
But I've always been a little messed up. :huh
-
I think that the 60 base capture is a good idea, it will take a concerted effort by the entire side to take a base.
Forgive my ignorance but I don't fly in the main alot and need some clarification of the "Perkies". I am...lets say, not of the highest caliber pilot, or enough of one to fly the better performing aircraft in the main, my perk points would not allow me to fly the plane of choice. Is that what you are suggesting here? I understand the theory behind it and agree with Venoms idea that the better crates would be towards the rear giving a "back against the wall" appearance for the winning side. If you could, please explain the perk point idea.
-
Here is a thread on capture lines that was tried a ways back in MA ...
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,193413.0.html (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,193413.0.html)
Perhaps we can use this to mark which bases are capturable. I'm not suggesting one line of capture but multiple lines. There was a complaint last time we had capture on that attackers avoided the defenders. We could have multiple lines but not be wide open so we bring the sides together more. The lines of capture could also be used to make the rear bases uncapturable or sequenced so they could not be captured until the front line bases are captured for the supply route concept.
Bug, I'm not against a multiple week war with a revolving plane set. My request is that they are independent rounds and that the results of the first round do not impact the second round. Each round starts balanced for the players. We could also tweak between rounds as they are independent rather than being committed to a multiweek war.
The game already has an automatic strat system built in. Perhaps we just need to tune that so hitting strats does have an impact liking losing dar when the HQ goes down. It would be worth defending. If a factory is down, the bases don't get rebuilt automatically, as there will be no supply trains. We would need C47s though to manually resuply. You do need a way to manually bring a base or factory back up. We don't want to destoy fights for a long period of time. Whatever system is chosen, we need a way for players to make a difference. If a factory goes down, a concerted C47 supply effort should bring it back up. We don't want to shut down play, make a hopeless situtation for a night, and have players leave.
Venom
-
I think that the 60 base capture is a good idea, it will take a concerted effort by the entire side to take a base.
Forgive my ignorance but I don't fly in the main alot and need some clarification of the "Perkies". I am...lets say, not of the highest caliber pilot, or enough of one to fly the better performing aircraft in the main, my perk points would not allow me to fly the plane of choice. Is that what you are suggesting here? I understand the theory behind it and agree with Venoms idea that the better crates would be towards the rear giving a "back against the wall" appearance for the winning side. If you could, please explain the perk point idea.
If you look under support-help on HTC's main website there is a complete description of perk points. But in a nutshell you have it right. Some planes would cost points, by flying other planes of the same type(fighter or bomber) you would earn points allowing you to access the perked rides.
-
Got it.... :aok
-
Yes, it does sound cool. :aok :aok
Here is an idea to get rid of the overnight milkrun allegations (bound to pop up -- we were just fortunate that we have been able to monitor our own countrymen's actions).
Idea:
Map is automatically reset to a default setting at a reasonable afternoon CST time. The victory points are tallied at a reasonable evening CST time. Everything in off hours is free for all as long as it doesn't pork the map. This gives all us off hour players an AvA map to have fun with.
I am seriously stuck on this Arena, and these sort of suggestions, and those who try to make it happen are truly welcome to a beer on me any time.
-
Great ideas guys. We'll hash them out. Btw - we do have a development group for these kind of ideas - if you wish to be part of it please let us know.
-
I think it sounds good.
As for the C-47's you could make them avialable only from a couple of rear area fields. That way it would take alot of coordination and a sustained cap for them to be effective. I'd actually rather see the M-3's eliminated and only C-47s...but with the above conditions.
With the 60 troop # your talking about a serious effort to successfully capture an impertant rear area base. You'd need an exceptionally coordinated effort vs any true defense. With a realistic 7 goon's required (figure you'd lose one somehow) + Jabo + CAP+escort for the goons its interesting. Also alot of possible deception...goons would be 25 min or more so alot of ability (and need) for slight of hand and also the big plus that a determined lone defender could make a difference if he can "smell" the goons out.
-
Yes, it does sound cool. :aok :aok
Here is an idea to get rid of the overnight milkrun allegations (bound to pop up -- we were just fortunate that we have been able to monitor our own countrymen's actions).
Idea:
Map is automatically reset to a default setting at a reasonable afternoon CST time. The victory points are tallied at a reasonable evening CST time. Everything in off hours is free for all as long as it doesn't pork the map. This gives all us off hour players an AvA map to have fun with.
I am seriously stuck on this Arena, and these sort of suggestions, and those who try to make it happen are truly welcome to a beer on me any time.
I don't like this idea. It makes the effort put in by the off hours players useless. There's no point in logging in at all. If you're only going to count the actions during a certain time of the day, you may as well lock the server during off hours.
I would rather let people milk run than to tell them they can't play when I am not online.
-
What is wrong with C47s? I like them. I even likes resupplying as a change of pace sometimes. I would like to see them at all fields.
I think 60 troops is extreme for the number of players we have. Some nights have less than 10 players per side. I would prefer lower downtimes for towns. Perhaps 30 troops with 30 minute downtime for buildings in a town, less downtime if needed. It would take coordination to take a field because you would have to drop a town and get troops in fast. A town would start popping before a single person could take it completly down and start dropping troops. A group of people could still pork but you can't stop that.
Venom
-
Hi Bug, hi all!
This is a very good idea, full of potential. It gently mixes the best of "old" AvA setups with the best of the "new" AvA wars, adding new points of interest by bringing into play the ground vehicle element. I defend that AH is, mainly, an air combat environment, but I also understand that AH community evolved and received many fine elements that enjoy driving combat vehicles. In my opinion, no war or scenario will be complete without ground vehicle battles and the possibility of capturing ground. We must only be careful in finding the right balance to make it challenging but not boring, fun but not dweeberish. All anti-milking measures must be implemented. Troop number needed for capture set at 60 is quite allright, as long downtimes for objects and strats. Also the built-in strat sistem working is a must. Loved the secret supply depots idea. Yes, some fields must be made uncapturable. Four weeks is too demanding, one week wars is what the whole idea is about, why not rotate this one week war with the big three week wars?
All in all, a good idea.
-
Ok guys here is my more polished version of my Campaign Series- North Africa setup, using a 3-week war setup. The three weeks allows for commander input and the ability for people to impact "the war". This setup could be done as a one week setup possibly adjusting for strats mid week and eliminating the rarity by basing better planes at third line bases. It is still in need of fine tuning I am sure and as always I am open to everyone's opinion. I hope it sounds worth trying and that possibly the staffers will give it a try. Again some setup issues may not work as I intend due to limitations with in-game setup tools. Take a look and at least toss your input in as to whether or not it sounds worth trying. It is a work in progress, so don't consider this to be definitive.
Going to use the Tunisia map, here is an image of what I propose to be for the starting bases.
(http://www.romold.net/temp/starting-map.bmp)
Axis are Bishop with 13 Airbases, 4 vehicle bases and two ports. Allied are Knights with 13 airbases, 5 vehicle bases and 4 ports.
Front Line Base worth 1 point: A16,A17,V36,V37,A26,A2 A25,A24,A34,A21,A35,V39,V45
Second Line Base worth 3 points: P33,V51,A31,A30,V49,A50,A4 P8,A10,V38,A5,V12,A7,A40,A6
Third Line Bases worth 5 points: A32,A20,A18 P46,A15,P23, P28
Strategic Targets worth 10 points: A1,A19,A27 A24,P22
Starting planeset with rarity factor-
Allied:
Hurri Mk I 1.0
P40-E 1.0
Hurri Mk IID 0.2
Spit Vb 0.1
Boston Mk III 0.3
C-47 1.0
Jeep 1.0
M-8 1.0
M-3 1.0
Axis:
C202 1.0
Bf109e-4 1.0
Bf109f-4 0.1
Bf110c-4 0.2
Ju87d 1.0
Ju-88a-4 0.3
C-47 1.0
Jeep 1.0
M-8 1.0
M-3 1.0
Strats/Downtimes:
Hangars and towns down a fixed 30 minutes. Fuel,ord,troops and radar start out at 30 minutes but adjusted each week per my original post. The extra Radar strat can be used to represent the road/rail system and open for interdiction. The commanders would be allowed 3 adjustments in their setup mid week, to adjust for enemy offensives in a sector. This would be increase by 1 additional adjustment per each 20% of the extra radar facility left standing. <-- just a rough idea
Number of troops will be open to adjustment as the setup plays out but thinking of initially starting at 50 then adjusting to make the front fluid yet limit the milkrunning.
Again shooting for the nature of an open arena utilizing a limited historical planeset with the aspect of a players efforts have further reaching impact along the lines of the obviously popular war theme.
Have to run, but just wanted to keep the idea flowing.
Gonna work on the planesets for week 2 and three and will post them soon.
-
Bug,
I personally think your idea is brilliant. This is what the AVA should and could be. Like anything tried it's going to have a few bugs no pun... It will never be perfect, but it's bringing the best of the Sim and the Wargame together to make it a challenge for both furballers, and warfighters, and those like myself who like a little of both. I like how you're doing the rarity factor, and the fact that historic airframes for the Heather and time period are used makes it superior to the current war scenarios.
Great idea, great work. I hope this gets a chance to run.
<S>
-
I'm only a newbie, however the more time spent here in AH I find a great deal to appreciate. The hard work and excellent ideas from the staff and this community are outstanding. Great potential here, kudos gentlemen.
-
Planeset obviously favors Axis. I know you will disagree, and historically I love it. I wouldn't touch it from an Allied perspective. The only balancing factor between the two planesets could only be found in numbers. However, few virtual pilots will choose to be cannon fodder for very long.
Any arguement that P40E could stand up to the Axis tater launchers, is lost on me. Spit V, maybe against 1 or possibly 2 with a good pilot, but the flood of players will be to Axis with the choice of rides. Sorry, if I am not enthusiastic about the planeset, but I do love the idea up to that point.
Starting planeset with rarity factor-
Allied:
Hurri Mk I 1.0
P40-E 1.0
Hurri Mk IID 0.2
Spit Vb 0.1
Boston Mk III 0.3
C-47 1.0
Jeep 1.0
M-8 1.0
M-3 1.0
Axis:
C202 1.0
Bf109e-4 1.0
Bf109f-4 0.1
Bf110c-4 0.2
Ju87d 1.0
Ju-88a-4 0.3
C-47 1.0
Jeep 1.0
M-8 1.0
M-3 1.0
-
Axis tater launchers? The only plane on the axis side with a good armament is the 109F :rolleyes:
Try using the 2 MG/FF's on the 109E and 110C and then come back to us. It's possible to bring someone down, but not much easier than it is with 8x .303's, and MUCH less than 6 .50 cals.
-
It's historic and sometimes History favors one side over another. I'd like to see these kind of wars over what we have now.
This is great and I hope it comes to pass. Sooner or later each side will have an advantage. This system Bug has worked up looks really promising
-
Planeset obviously favors Axis. I know you will disagree, and historically I love it. I wouldn't touch it from an Allied perspective. The only balancing factor between the two planesets could only be found in numbers. However, few virtual pilots will choose to be cannon fodder for very long.
Any arguement that P40E could stand up to the Axis tater launchers, is lost on me. Spit V, maybe against 1 or possibly 2 with a good pilot, but the flood of players will be to Axis with the choice of rides. Sorry, if I am not enthusiastic about the planeset, but I do love the idea up to that point.
I am completely missing any basis for your argument. I do not see the discrepancies you are mentioning. Please check out the fighter comparisons here.
http://www.gonzoville.com/ahcharts/index.php?p1=109e4&p2=c202&p3=hurri1&p4=p40e (http://www.gonzoville.com/ahcharts/index.php?p1=109e4&p2=c202&p3=hurri1&p4=p40e)
Lethality is matched quite nicely if I do say so myself. P40e to the 109e and Hurri I to the 202.
Spit V is far more lethal than the 109f in regards to guns. There will most definitely be the need for play-balance, I in no way dispute that. But that would most likely be a decrease in the rarity of the 202(making its use limited) and an increase in the availability of the Spit V. But none of those balance adjustments can be to compensate for poor markmanship, because the tables tell a much different story for the relative effectiveness of the guns.
-
Axis tater launchers? The only plane on the axis side with a good armament is the 109F :rolleyes:
Try using the 2 MG/FF's on the 109E and 110C and then come back to us. It's possible to bring someone down, but not much easier than it is with 8x .303's, and MUCH less than 6 .50 cals.
....er....you sure you've flown these planes, Bubi?
- oldman
-
I don't have any experience in the 202, but other than that, I don't really see an axis bias in this. Been on the receiving end of a P-40E smackdown too many times to underestimate it.
Perhaps add the Spit I? Would it be a better "balance" to the 202?
Suppose it is too early a set for the P-39D.
-
Believe me there is no P40 smack down ever. There are however, very excellent pilots that know their stuff. I have plenty of basis for my arguement. Show me as many charts as you want. I know that Hurri 2C clobbers them all. Why is that? It has tater launchers and good ones at that.
My point? I guess you would have to find Dastrdly flying his 110 C against anyone doubting any validity in my arguement and ask them afterwards.
Anyhow, planesets have been a sore point in this arena. Given the choices, I tell you right now what side I won't fly. As good as AH2 is, it does not do the 50 cal armament justice. The battles that we engage in are snapshot battles, seldom a shot long enough to give the 50 cal saw effect needed in game. On the other hand, snap, crackle pop..... cannon round .... I'm down...... way too often.
-
The Spit I could be added. It is a good matchup for the 109E. Set your convergence low and get in close. I've flown both the Spit I and 109E and don't have a huge preference for either. The Spit I can outturn the 109E if the driver knows how to use flaps.
The Axis have a large advantage in base capture in my opinion. Cannon equipped planes seem to do better knocking down ground structures. The Boston is tough to use and has those 303s. Is the P40E a good ground attack fighter? If not, perhaps throw in a P38G for balancing to give the allies a good ground attack plane with cannons. Perhaps make the P38G a rare plane.
Venom
-
Hurri IID was there to aid in the Allies ground attack for the first week. P38G would be added the third week I'm thinking. Was basing the planeset along the lines of weeks representing 1941, 1942 & 1943.
-
Still working on the second and third week planesets, haven't had much online time this week. After that going to look into a Continuation War setup, always a popular AvA map. <S>
-
Still working on the second and third week planesets, haven't had much online time this week. After that going to look into a Continuation War setup, always a popular AvA map. <S>
:aok
-
There are pieces of this idea that I like and think are neat but the idea as a whole still doesn't work for me. I'll tell ya why.
This is something I would be interested in playing, in a one-two night a week kind of special event type of thing. Not as a 24 hours, 7 days a week for 3 weeks, or even 1 week deal. Specifically because the plane set is still so limited that it would hold little interest for the majority of players.
Yes you could get them to log in and fly this on occasion. This is essential to how the FSO works. People are willing to fly limited plane sets, but not all day long.
For the AvA to work, a casual player needs to be able to log in to the AvA find the plane he wants to fly, go out and contribute to the effort, for 30-45 minutes and log off.
The SEA already scratches that itch for a rolling plane set type of fight.
-
I think the people that are drawn to a historical planeset are quite willing to fly a limited planeset. As the reasonably successful Combat Theater of past has shown. If you were to have a complete open Axis/Allied planeset, it would not only lead to non-historical matchups in the air, you might as well just make it a late-'44-45 planeset cause that is all most people will be flying.
The planes I have in the setup, are reasonably matched, allow for fun for the multiple factions in the game and also allow a plane for the different styles of flying.
I say give the setup a try, will require a little tuning I am sure. But can't tell whether it will work or not without trying it.
-
The SEA already scratches that itch for a rolling plane set type of fight.
Only for those in the right time zones.
-
The SEA already scratches that itch for a rolling plane set type of fight.
Sea does nothing for me. i liked it when the AVA had rolling planesets and every week, you got better or different planes. I really enjoyed that setup not so long ago. running bombers and supplies and no GV's leaves alot to be desired. just my opinion
-
Just to be clear, my idea does include GVs. It is basically the Old AvA, with base capture and point objectives to determine a side "winner". Strats would be there to influence play, but on a controlled level and would not be the whole determining factor for a side's victory.
I can see no way how my idea compares to the SEA and to question a limited planeset in the Axis versus Allies arena seems a little silly to me.
-
It's just the rolling plane set that doesn't hold enough apeal.
The 20 people in the early war + 30 in the mid war -vs- 500 in the late war right now shows the "mass" appeal of the earlier war rides. There is not enough appeal for those early rides to dedicate 2 out of 3 weeks to them.
Chances are that those numbers are only even up that high because some of the old school AvA crowd is hiding out there rather than play in the AvA right now.
None of those other features make up for not having planes that you like. Think of it this way. For every ship you doesn't have that's probably 5 players who are not going to play.
-
It's just the rolling plane set that doesn't hold enough apeal.
The 20 people in the early war + 30 in the mid war -vs- 500 in the late war right now shows the "mass" appeal of the earlier war rides. There is not enough appeal for those early rides to dedicate 2 out of 3 weeks to them.
Chances are that those numbers are only even up that high because some of the old school AvA crowd is hiding out there rather than play in the AvA right now.
None of those other features make up for not having planes that you like. Think of it this way. For every ship you doesn't have that's probably 5 players who are not going to play.
Perhaps we can start with late war for the "beta" phase. Get MA people to try it, and then do the rolling plane set. They will probably stay if they like it. I really like the opportunity to have all of the Axis vs Allies matchups, not just the late war matchups, so I like the rolling plane set idea. The beginning BoB in early rides drew good crowds and that was with early rides. It became less popular as the planes advanced but that was for other reasons also.
Personally, I think 40 to 60 people would be great for AvA. I like the smaller numbers. There are still opportunities for small scale fights which get hard to find in the MA at times. You also get to know everyone. 30+ people a night would be a success.
Venom
-
The Early and Mid War arenas are still 3-sided wars that allow access to all planes to all three sides. I would prefer developing a player-base that is interested in historical matchups and not having to constantly be in late war rides. Some of the early matchups are by far the most interesting and the most fun. Even if doing such limits the numbers that fly in the AvA.
So your idea for the arena would be to just have two sides, with all planes of Axis available to one side and all of the Allied to the other? Then just setup with base capture and settings like the other arenas? Just to be sure I'm not misunderstanding. It may be more popular, I personally don't like it. But with any setup, till we try it we will never know.
-
limited planesets is what made it interesting. so you cant have top of the line planes...big deal. like a backyard mechanic, you work with the tools you have. most of the refined players in in the early and mid war arenas. the gamers are in the latewar arena. you might be better off appealing to the refined player base. you can grow it from there.
of course running a setup like this might appeal to certain undesirable elements. beware....
-
Why not run an ETO September 44-May 45 map and limit it to the 9th AF birds ie P38J/L, P51B/D P47D25/40, A20 vs LW birds 109G6/G14/K4 109A8/F8/D9 Ju88s and 110s
No one dominant bird, no overpowering bomber but enough to do some damage, enable Shermans, M3s, M8s M16s for the Allies, Sdkfz, Tiger and Panzer IV for the Axis. Let the ground pounders try and move the lines while the air guys support it and attack it.
You could do it 2 TAF RAF vs LW too if you took Spit IXs/XVIs, Tiffie's, Temps, Mossies and Bostons vs the LW set. Might want to enable 262s at a base or two for that one.
Use the Rhine map and fight the end of the war
-
The issues at hand aren't so much the planeset as it is generating some type of a "war" format to use as a stage for the action to play out upon. Some people wish to have the sense they are contributing to a collective goal, while others wish to just participate in the fights those efforts can produce. But since the arena is prone to milking, porking and low numbers these are the areas where the greatest need for problem solving lies. In my opinion of course.
Although I really like your planesets Guppy. <S>
-
Is there a way to funnel the fight to certain areas? Again using late 44-45 maybe you are talking Bastogne and the towns surrounding it. If there is a focal point of the' war', in particular with the smaller crowd, and you are limiting the bombers to essentially light bombers, it might prevent some of the milking. Who wants to fly an a20 to Berlin if the war is in Belgium? :)
With a narrower goal and a central place for combat, it might draw folks together and even bring the airwar down to the tac airwar alts that the 9th and LW were flying at to try and support the armor. Throw in the lousy weather aspect and it could be interesting.
Imagine lugging a couple of 1000 pounders on your 38, looking for German armor in the ground fog and mist. All of a sudden you spot dots high and behind you. A flight of 190s is coming down. Fights on! :)
-
Again, all good ideas but you have to consider the things that would be necessary to get people to roll those tanks. Base capture which is a fundamental aspect of the game already exists, so my idea rolls with that. But in the AvA with base capture on you run the risk of arena reset, a very bad thing, or an almost equal problem of basically shutting down one side. So that is the premise behind my suggestions. The idea is to be able to plug in any balanced historical planeset into this basic framework and generate a setup that has something to offer to all interests but without separating them. I would love to see the scenarios play out as you describe, I think we all do and I honestly think my idea has merit.
Reducing bombers to just lights may help with milking, I doubt it though some of those guys are dedicated to it. But it also limits the bomber fans, possibly needlessly.
Limited base capture, with strategic objectives, historical planesets.... has to be the answer :)
-
I'm agreeing with ya Bug :) Limiting base capture to a central area that funnels the opposing teams to each other somehow makes the most sense. It's almost like it would need to be like the older AW set up where there was a ring of bases that were fought over back and forth but you could only go so far. There was no 'winning the war' but there was a lot of ongoing combat back and forth as those bases changed hands. Bombers had their place in that as well. Anyone milking the arena served no purpose.
Wishful thinking I know :)
-
Is there a way to funnel the fight to certain areas? Again using late 44-45 maybe you are talking Bastogne and the towns surrounding it. If there is a focal point of the' war', in particular with the smaller crowd, and you are limiting the bombers to essentially light bombers, it might prevent some of the milking. Who wants to fly an a20 to Berlin if the war is in Belgium? :)
With a narrower goal and a central place for combat, it might draw folks together and even bring the airwar down to the tac airwar alts that the 9th and LW were flying at to try and support the armor. Throw in the lousy weather aspect and it could be interesting.
Imagine lugging a couple of 1000 pounders on your 38, looking for German armor in the ground fog and mist. All of a sudden you spot dots high and behind you. A flight of 190s is coming down. Fights on! :)
I believe there is a way Guppy. Chemdawg and I are looking into map alternatives that might do just that. If you or anyone else here has any experience, with Terrain Editor, or would like to try please PM me.
TheBug, your idea has prompted me to look at your North Africa era battles.
-
I'm agreeing with ya Bug :) Limiting base capture to a central area that funnels the opposing teams to each other somehow makes the most sense. It's almost like it would need to be like the older AW set up where there was a ring of bases that were fought over back and forth but you could only go so far. There was no 'winning the war' but there was a lot of ongoing combat back and forth as those bases changed hands. Bombers had their place in that as well. Anyone milking the arena served no purpose.
Wishful thinking I know :)
Hehe, I knew you were agreeing. You just weren't digging deep enough for me, try to make you work that brain! ;)
-
I believe there is a way Guppy. Chemdawg and I are looking into map alternatives that might do just that. If you or anyone else here has any experience, with Terrain Editor, or would like to try please PM me.
TheBug, your idea has prompted me to look at your North Africa era battles.
Cool Chilli, there is a map team that is usually very busy but I'm sure they can give a couple tips.
-
I'm thinking, and maybe a little grandly, that this setup once polished and honed would become what the AvA is to be. Maybe four weeks is too much, cut it back to three?? I'm not sure. But the idea is to give the fun and well rounded action of the MA, coupled with the historical planesets of the AvA and a strategic flavor lacking in the MA. So the setup will be fresh every 2-3-4 weeks??? We can fall back on Old school CT planesets, Finland, North Africa, Overlord/Cobra, Italy, etc.. But weave them into this new framework, that would generate a greater interest to support the larger numbers. I'm not thinking this is to be a setup tried every now and then. I'm thinking this will be(once polished by player input and actual testing of course) the AvA of the future.
But I've always been a little messed up. :huh
I don't think it's grand, or bragging at all. The four week run would be a good choice, and may just generate more interest from the MW/LW crowd.
Looking forward to this one.
Thanks for putting in the effort, Bug.
:salute
-
Will get your P38f in on the second week too. <S>
-
I've never flown the AvA arena and this plane set and 4 week campaign sounds like alot of fun.
I will give this a try. :aok
-
I fly EW mostly; but have been to the AvA a couple of times. I like this idea and will be sure to stop by a little more often.
:salute for all the sweat-and-tears in thinking this up and implementing it. I hope for a huge success and more to follow. :aok
-
See Rule #10