Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Sunka on July 09, 2008, 04:37:28 PM
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This question was brought up by me in another thread and i did not want to hijack the thread with this but, I wonder why the p51D's perk value is 8 when its stats are all mostly less then other late war rides . I love the pony fly it well but it took a long time to learn to fly it.I was told it is because it holds a lot of ammo and it can fly long distance.But that cant be the only ression,as in AH flying long distance is not really a plus.Theirs many planes that have a lot of canon rounds and the pony dont have canon, many planes pick up speed much faster then the pony and way out climb it.Their are also a lot of late war rides that go as fast or faster then the pony below or at 10 k so why is it considered an uber plane by HTC? :salute
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Because ENY is based also off a plane's usage in the arenas. Since all noobs think the P-51 is the plane that won the war outturning spitfires, outclimbing 109's and flying as fast as a 262, it gets used... a lot.
;)
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Because ENY is based also off a plane's usage in the arenas. Since all noobs think the P-51 is the plane that won the war outturning spitfires, outclimbing 109's and flying as fast as a 262, it gets used... a lot.
;)
Also, alot of suicide, pork and auger dweebs use it. That not only increases its usage frequency but makes its stats look worse than equivalent planes employed exclusively air to air.
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Because ENY is based also off a plane's usage in the arenas. Since all noobs think the P-51 is the plane that won the war outturning spitfires, outclimbing 109's and flying as fast as a 262, it gets used... a lot.
;)
Well it seems if the usage was the case then the spit and 109 would be like perk 2 lol
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Well it seems if the usage was the case then the spit and 109 would be like perk 2 lol
The 109 and Spitfire are flown the same amount? :huh
I've always thought the P-51D should have an ENY of 5. It doesn't have cannons, but the ballistics of the mg's makes aiming easy compared to some other uber rides like the La-7. It's not the fastest, but how many non-perk rides can out-run it? At low altitude, I can think of the Typhy, 190D, 109K, and La-7. What really makes it a great ride is its high-speed handling. The controls remain light past 450mph IAS. Lastly, so long as you don't try to fly it like a Spitfire, the 51 retains energy like nothing else.
Then there's ordinance: 6 rockets and 2 1k lb bombs. If you took away the ordinance then the ENY ought to be higher.
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Well it seems if the usage was the case then the spit and 109 would be like perk 2 lol
Actually 109's are somewhat rare compared to other fighters.
These are all fighter kills & deaths added together in 2007, sorted by airframe families:
(http://img168.imageshack.us/img168/2124/clipboard03uv7.png)
All 109's together had ~4.5 % of all fighter kills&deaths.
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Where is the Nikki?
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Because ENY is based also off a plane's usage in the arenas.
If so, why does the Hurri IIC has ENY 10 in EW, all while having more than 40% of all fighter kills? :noid
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yea saying the 109's may be unfair, only the last month or two it seems like they are all over the place :rolleyes:
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Where is the Nikki?
"Other fighters", as there's no Nikki airframe family. N1K alone had 6.85%.
For details, see this thread: http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,223633.0.html
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yea saying the 109's may be unfair, only the last month or two it seems like they are all over the place :rolleyes:
as are the yaks now.
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P-51 can carry a lot more ordance then most LW birdies. It can tnb okay, not great but it handles it self better then pretty much all 190s, tiffies. It's fast and handle well at high speed, thus great dive bomber/bnzmer. Great cockpit view. Enough ammunition for 10-12 a2a kills easily before winchester. Tons of fuel, that translates to longer air time over enemy area (which pretty much all 190s and 109s, spitties, tiffies, f4us missing.) 8 eny sounds about right =)
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yea saying the 109's may be unfair, only the last month or two it seems like they are all over the place :rolleyes:
Its because people are finding out why the 109 was so evenly matched with the spitfire.
While yes its harder to see outside the cockpit, and guns stink - it still turns with a spitfire and dances around most LW planes.
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I think because it's a good all around aircraft. It has a great ord package and enough fuel to hang around and pick your target rather then just dive in and go at it.
It used to have an eny of 5.
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Lusche ...Where do you get all of this information. You are like the prophet at the top of the mountain.
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Well I'm glad its not 5 anymore.I'm not sure if the jug N should be a 5 it is suppose to have a reputation for being tuff but spits have no problem with a few snapshots knocking it out of the air. I know it has uber ammo... but still
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The P-51D is quite possiby the easiest kill in the game if you have the E to run it down. (For the record, I DO NOT for a moment think this is representative on the real aircraft, so please guys, I'm not dissing the real plane or being anti-American here. I think if correctly modeled, the P-51D would actually demand a light perk price. Which may be one reason it is modeled as it is...)
Some would say the 190 is easier when caught, but I disagree, its roll rate can give you trouble for a long time when you'd have already whacked a slow-rolling Mustang with a snap-shot. A Jug being run down will hit you with roll-rate and good slow-handling, AND monster ability to take a beating in order to force an overshoot. The P-51 is inferior to the plane it was designed to replace in all these categories. The FW-190 is the only airplane in the set that the P-51D clearly beats in turn or slow-fighting, although not in roll, firepower, or engine performance at typical MA alts. P-51s get success in the MA by being flown by phenomenally skilled sticks, and/or by using Flying Tigers style hit-and-run tactics,(Not that there is anything wrong with that). For every other style of fighting there are loads of superior aircraft, and frankly, the P-47N, FW-190D9, and unperked Corsairs are about as good or better in the bnz role.
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The P-51D is quite possiby the easiest kill in the game if you have the E to run it down. (For the record, I DO NOT for a moment think this is representative on the real aircraft, so please guys, I'm not dissing the real plane or being anti-American here. I think if correctly modeled, the P-51D would actually demand a light perk price. Which may be one reason it is modeled as it is...)
I disagree. Anyone beside those who fly the P51D purely BnZ can put up quite a fight when you chase them down.
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I disagree. Anyone beside those who fly the P51D purely BnZ can put up quite a fight when you chase them down.
Name the fighter plane you think is easier to shoot down from a Co-E state than the P-51. I just don't see any candidates besides possibly the 190.
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How easy to shoot down depends WAY to much on the pilot. I don't have any easier time shooting down picktard P51's once I chase them down than 190's or Typhoons.
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Name the fighter plane you think is easier to shoot down from a Co-E state than the P-51. I just don't see any candidates besides possibly the 190.
:rofl
You must be new.
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Well I'm glad its not 5 anymore.I'm not sure if the jug N should be a 5 it is suppose to have a reputation for being tuff but spits have no problem with a few snapshots knocking it out of the air. I know it has uber ammo... but still
The N jug is in almost every respect inferior to the D40.
The M model would be a different story, it would need to be perked.
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tell me about the M model. I've never heard of it.
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tell me about the M model. I've never heard of it.
It's the final P47 model of the war, it did nothing important and less were built than the Me163.
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rgr ty, it must be the ones I see in old Korean war films.
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rgr ty, it must be the ones I see in old Korean war films.
I thought P47's were out of service by Korea? Weren't the only WWII a/c to serve in Korea post war versions of the P51 and the F4U, and even then as ordinance haulers?
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Don't know, I'll have to look it up. But I'm sure I've seen old film of jugs during Korea. i watch so many shows on the Military and history channels that I may just be confused. :lol
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Don't know, I'll have to look it up. But I'm sure I've seen old film of jugs during Korea. i watch so many shows on the Military and history channels that I may just be confused. :lol
Or just misinformed... I see so much stupidly wrong information on those channels that I sometimes want to bash the screen in with a bat :rofl
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The P-51D is quite possiby the easiest kill in the game if you have the E to run it down. (For the record, I DO NOT for a moment think this is representative on the real aircraft, so please guys, I'm not dissing the real plane or being anti-American here. I think if correctly modeled, the P-51D would actually demand a light perk price. Which may be one reason it is modeled as it is...)
Some would say the 190 is easier when caught, but I disagree, its roll rate can give you trouble for a long time when you'd have already whacked a slow-rolling Mustang with a snap-shot. A Jug being run down will hit you with roll-rate and good slow-handling, AND monster ability to take a beating in order to force an overshoot. The P-51 is inferior to the plane it was designed to replace in all these categories. The FW-190 is the only airplane in the set that the P-51D clearly beats in turn or slow-fighting, although not in roll, firepower, or engine performance at typical MA alts. P-51s get success in the MA by being flown by phenomenally skilled sticks, and/or by using Flying Tigers style hit-and-run tactics,(Not that there is anything wrong with that). For every other style of fighting there are loads of superior aircraft, and frankly, the P-47N, FW-190D9, and unperked Corsairs are about as good or better in the bnz role.
(http://usera.imagecave.com/uptown/Pulling_hair.gif)
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I suppose Steve Bailey is a noob too...
Okay Stang, name the planes in LW MA that are definitely inferior to the P-51D in a Co-E dogfight?
The only sure thing IMO is the Fw-190. (The Typhoon is another possibility. It slipped my mind. Thank you for the reminder, Motherland. The Typhoon is of course worse in the roll-rate department than the Pony. As for shooting down 190s vrs. Ponys...probably you are better at hitting a snapshot on a wildly rolling and jinking craft than I am.)
and? What else?
I think there are alot of factors. I believe there is a certain amount of "tweaking" in the modeling going on to offset the massive natural popularity that planes with P in front of their name will enjoy. The P-51, according to WWII tests should, but does not in AHII, turn somewhat better than the Tempest. The Tempest turns a smaller circle with both flaps stowed and with flaps out, although in practical terms the P-51 can get its flaps down at higher speeds, allowing in my experience the P-51 to barely turn with the Tempest for a few circles-enough to get a kill, but not a decisive advantage. (In point of fact, the D9 will turn a smaller circle with full flaps. Although this is totally impractical for dogfighting, due to the Doras extremely low deployment speeds, it does show you how funky things are with the Mustang's turn radius.)
I think if the P-51 it were correct, it would be a NIGHTMARE, able to fly forever, go anywhere, catch anything with a slight dive, and to drop flaps and turn with well enough long enough that practically nothing would have much chance of dodging the fifty caliber love. Especially with its view for deflection shots. It would almost demand perking. And this in turn, might be bad for business. Can you imagine average noob signing up for his two weeks, clicking on what amounts to THE WWII plane for most Americans, and seeing "You don't have enough points for that model"? Lead to horrible turnover.
And the P-38 by all accounts was even more nightmarish than the Mustang...
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I'm not trying to offend you Uptown. Believe me, if you are doing well with the P-51D, you are certainly above average.
(http://usera.imagecave.com/uptown/Pulling_hair.gif)
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A few of us 38 dweebs went up with Fencer one night in 51s and I must admit I was pleasantly surprised at how well it did down low on the deck and in a turn fight. A notch of combat flaps now and then, keep the speed up and have at it. Will it get slow with a Spit? nope, but it sure seemed like I could hang with a 16.
Obviously I've never flown any real WW2 warplane, but the 51 sure seemed to respond like it's described in all the books I've read. It wasn't meant to be a pure turn fighter. It had to carry lots of fuel and do lots of things well. If the Spit could have carried the fuel and had the range of a 51, there would have been no 51. But the 51 could take the fight to the LW over their own turf and get the pilot home. The Spit couldn't, nor could the Tempest, Tiffie or any other bird beyond the 38 and later 47s
Spend some time with the guys in here that live in 51s and see what they can do both up high and down low. Like any of the birds here, making generalizations based on someone who has never flown any of the planes enough to know the limits, just doesn't make sense.
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I don't really know how to explain this but will try. No one is saying the pony is the best plane in the set. But in the case of the pony you have to fly it right. Sure, a 109 will out climb me and out turn me. So I bait him into a high speed dive because i know he'll more than likely compress or have to pull out before i do. Same with 38s. LAs are a problem only if i see them too late. I either BnZ them or pull em up high. Higher the better. I guess what I'm trying to say is I fight against each plane a little different.
Your statement about running down a pony if you have enough E can be said about a 262 also.Alot of folks think the 51 is easy to fly, but you have to know what the enemy can and can't do before you can be very successful in it or any other plane for that matter.
If you happen to see the 412th in your sector we can explain it in clearer terms :devil :salute
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I'm not offended at all sir. I just love the 51 and wish everyone did as much as me, thats all. :salute
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I've ridden with Skatsr and Steve abit, watched what they can do. I have flown it a little. I have flown against it. I have, believe it or not, brought down a Spit time to time with the thing. All of this is irrelevant. Are we going to continue muddy waters by confusing brilliant piloting with having a brilliant aircraft?
I have seen Creton out-maneuver a Spitfire in the MA while flying a Fw-190A8. Obviously this means the Spitfire is no better in a close dogfight than the A8... :devil
Respond like its described in books? None of the books I've read describe it as being hopelessly inferior in maneuveribility to a 109G, or slightly inferior to a Jug in maneverability. (When the Brits say it can out-turn a 109, it is just barely possible their pilots did not understand the 109. When the Brits say it can out-turn the Hawker fighters, but doesn't in AHII, there are two possibilities. Either they didn't understand THEIR OWN AIRCRAFT, or it isn't quite modeled right. You tell me which is more likely) Granted, in AHII, you don't have to deal with the all-at-once stall, what with our stall-horn and buffeting convention, but that is true for every plane, so not much advantage to the Pony in that regard.
A few of us 38 dweebs went up with Fencer one night in 51s and I must admit I was pleasantly surprised at how well it did down low on the deck and in a turn fight. A notch of combat flaps now and then, keep the speed up and have at it. Will it get slow with a Spit? nope, but it sure seemed like I could hang with a 16.
Obviously I've never flown any real WW2 warplane, but the 51 sure seemed to respond like it's described in all the books I've read. It wasn't meant to be a pure turn fighter. It had to carry lots of fuel and do lots of things well. If the Spit could have carried the fuel and had the range of a 51, there would have been no 51. But the 51 could take the fight to the LW over their own turf and get the pilot home. The Spit couldn't, nor could the Tempest, Tiffie or any other bird beyond the 38 and later 47s
Spend some time with the guys in here that live in 51s and see what they can do both up high and down low. Like any of the birds here, making generalizations based on someone who has never flown any of the planes enough to know the limits, just doesn't make sense.
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I'm not offended at all sir. I just love the 51 and wish everyone did as much as me, thats all. :salute
Hopefully you understand, my point and concern is that your favorite plane is poorly represented. :salute
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BnZ, there's some pretty good Pony D sticks out there. I'd give up while you're behind.
I fought someone in one one night on a co-alt merge starting at ~16-17K in a Spit. If they can use a nose low vertical fight with flaps out they are far from an easy kill, even by a Spit. The problem in this fight with the Spit is that you don't want to slow it down and offer the P-51 a chance to extend away, so it becomes a surprisingly close match-up, at least until it reaches the deck.
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I've flown most aircrafts for a few tours and I find it seriously interesting that people can say a P51 is not a good dog fighter. Ask yourself this before considering it for 8 eny, have you flown this aircraft for a few tours to learn how to fly it? Or just practice what everyone else does: boom and zoom and run?
While everyone is correct a P51 wont roll with a 190 or turn with a Spitfire, what about what these other birds cant do? Where a 190 cant turn, a P51 can stay in his corner, (im talking Dora model not A5, which will in fact turn inside a mustang). Answer is basically P51 is a very balanced dogfighter, you just need to learn adjust your tactics around you to fit the plane. In the right hands and right tactics this bird is pretty much amazing, keep it fast and high it will give any plane a run for its money. Its not the plane that matters, P51 just has awesome all around stats, it just doesn't beat any plane other then speed in 1 general area, this is why its not the "Best dogfighter" out there. Where a 109 can't dive, a P51 can, where a spit can climb, it still can't dive with a p51, using these general attributes is what you need to learn to fight effectively.
Nothing wrong with disengaging and heading home when your out numbered, but its the poptart's that after they make one move and lose they decided to bolt out rather then up another cartoon plane and try something else, or go back to pick and run.
While uptown and SkatSr fly the P51 with pride, I love my Me109g14. Not a fast bird, out climbs a few planes, doesn't out turn, or out run.
I look at it as experience grows and once you learn your ride inside out (im not saying I have) then you break the ice and begin to learn.
Just my input.
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Respond like its described in books? None of the books I've read describe it as being hopelessly inferior in maneuveribility to a 109G, or slightly inferior to a Jug in maneverability. (When the Brits say it can out-turn a 109, it is just barely possible their pilots did not understand the 109.
The 109G is a 7000 lb aircraft. The P51 is a, IIRC 10,000 to 12,000 pound aircraft. Also remember that by the time the P51 showed up in large numbers the vast majority of Luftwaffe pilots were extremely unexperienced. So you have British pilots who were unfamiliar with the type and German pilots who were unfamiliar with the type being out turned by P51 pilots who were very well trained and familiar with the type.
See my being able to out turn Spitfire Mk16s in the P51 and Ta152.
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(http://usera.imagecave.com/uptown/JamieLeeCurtis40_001.jpg) sorry wrong thread :rofl
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The 109G is a 7000 lb aircraft. The P51 is a, IIRC 10,000 to 12,000 pound aircraft. Also remember that by the time the P51 showed up in large numbers the vast majority of Luftwaffe pilots were extremely unexperienced. So you have British pilots who were unfamiliar with the type and German pilots who were unfamiliar with the type being out turned by P51 pilots who were very well trained and familiar with the type.
See my being able to out turn Spitfire Mk16s in the P51 and Ta152.
Exactly "unexperienced" I read enough stories how a lone 109 ace handled 3-4 P-51's with ease like nothing. Dogfights even had one about a 109 pilot, had to of been an ace, was keeping a half dozen p51's at bay on the deck. I wish i knew who was the ace they were talking about, I checked and couldn't find any leads to who was flying in the area they were talking about. Granted if you had 1000 combat missions in a P-51, I think luftwaffe would of been generally SCREWED - Lucky for the boys escorting those bombers, luftwaffe numbers dropped considerably.
However I give great credit to the P47 pilots as they were first to arrive and showing Jerry a lesson to what a JUG can do.
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I seen that show also, and wanted to know who that German pilot was. 1 on 1 those ponys would have been in deep do-do
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That could have been a multitude of pilots on a multitude of occasions... do you have the date and location by any chance?
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it was over Belgium in 44 or 45 is all i remember. Over an American airfield
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it was over Belgium in 44 or 45 is all i remember. Over an American airfield
Ah was it Y29 (Op: Bodenplatte)? New years day 1945?
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yep! that's it :aok
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Bald: I have made it extremely clear in every post on this thread that I know there are many very skilled Pony sticks, for whom I have the utmost respect, so what are you trying to tell me exactly?
The 109G is a 7000 lb aircraft. The P51 is a, IIRC 10,000 to 12,000 pound aircraft.
Um, number 1, there is a thing called wing-loading. That is why a ~12,000 lb aircraft called the F4U out-turns a ~9,000 lb aircraft called the Fw-190. Of course you know this. Number 2, a clean pony with full intenal fuel weighs a little bit over 10,000 lbs, according to the AHII E6B. You'd need ordinance to hit 12,000 lbs I think. That is with a full auxilliary tank, and standard procedure was to drain that tank first, before the drops. A Pony with the rear tank mostly drained (probably the heaviest condition one would normally fight in) weighs about 9,750 lbs. Doubtless, you know this as well. A P-51D has a wing area of 235 square feet. This yields a wingloading of 41.5 lbs/ft at that weight. A 109G6 (the most produced 109) weighs 6,806 lbs with a 75% fuel loading, and has a wing area of 173 square feet, yielding a wing-loading of 39.3 lbs/ft. A slight, not massive advantage to the 109. Notice I am being VERY generous to the 109 here by comparing them both at 75%, making the Mustang's greater fuel capacity a disadvantage. As a matter of fact, the Mustang can potentially outrange a 109 w/full internal with just 50% fuel.
And what do we make of the Jug-Mustang and Mustang-190 comparison? Both planes have a notably higher-wingloading, the Jug for is also inferior in power-loading, yet both will turn a smaller circle than the P-51. How do we explain this one away?
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Just as earlier we were confusing the existence of many extremely skilled AHII Pony sticks with the Pony being a brilliant AHII airplane, what this proves is that there were still some wily old hares around after the introduction of the P-51....
Exactly "unexperienced" I read enough stories how a lone 109 ace handled 3-4 P-51's with ease like nothing. Dogfights even had one about a 109 pilot, had to of been an ace, was keeping a half dozen p51's at bay on the deck. I wish i knew who was the ace they were talking about, I checked and couldn't find any leads to who was flying in the area they were talking about. Granted if you had 1000 combat missions in a P-51, I think luftwaffe would of been generally SCREWED - Lucky for the boys escorting those bombers, luftwaffe numbers dropped considerably.
However I give great credit to the P47 pilots as they were first to arrive and showing Jerry a lesson to what a JUG can do.
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yep! that's it :aok
That would mean it was most likely a JG11 pilot :D
Which would mean that chances are the pilot was not too \experienced since the majority of JG11 was completely rebuilt with new recruits just 6 months prior, unless it was one of the Staffelkapitaen's or Gruppenkommandeur's who were retained when the Geschwader was rebuilt... which is possible since Gunther Specht, Geschwaderkommandeur of JG11 at the time IIRC, who served from the beginning of the war (originally a 110 pilot), was killed in the battle.
Um, number 1, there is a thing called wing-loading. That is why a ~12,000 lb aircraft called the F4U out-turns a ~9,000 lb aircraft called the Fw-190. Of course you know this. Number 2, a clean pony with full intenal fuel weighs a little bit over 10,000 lbs, according to the AHII E6B. You'd need ordinance to hit 12,000 lbs I think. That is with a full auxilliary tank, and standard procedure was to drain that tank first, before the drops. A Pony with the rear tank mostly drained (probably the heaviest condition one would normally fight in) weighs about 9,750 lbs. Doubtless, you know this as well. A P-51D has a wing area of 235 square feet. This yields a wingloading of 41.5 lbs/ft at that weight. A 109G6 (the most produced 109) weighs 6,806 lbs with a 75% fuel loading, and has a wing area of 173 square feet, yielding a wing-loading of 39.3 lbs/ft. A slight, not massive advantage to the 109. Notice I am being VERY generous to the 109 here by comparing them both at 75%, making the Mustang's greater fuel capacity a disadvantage. As a matter of fact, the Mustang can potentially outrange a 109 w/full internal with just 50% fuel.
I am well aware that wing loading is what's important and weight alone means little. Nonetheless, the 109G has smaller wingloading than the Mustang, but also has a MUCH higher power to weight ratio, which also helps a lot with turn radius.
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Understand, I am not suggesting that a P-51 should make a smaller circle than a 109-F in a minimum speed Luftberry on the deck...
However, it should turn well enough to stay with late 109s at reasonable fighting airspeeds (over 220mph IAS). I've sat there and read hundreds of pilot reports the gist of which was a P-51 latching onto a 109, going around a few times, and shooting him. After awhile, it becomes hard to attribute it all to flukes and supposedly-incompetent German flying. (Too incompetent to pull the stick and go around in a circle?!?!?)
American pilots were apparently capable of recognizing what they could and could not turn with. Remeber the 90 degree rule with Jugs? Or the tactics used against the Japanese in the PTO? So many of them had the impression that the P-51 was actually more nimble than a 109...perhaps an exaggeration, but how could they have believed this if the 109's turning advantage was as massive as it is in AHII?
And the P-51 should certainly make a smaller circle than the Jug and Dora!
That would mean it was most likely a JG11 pilot :D
Which would mean that chances are the pilot was not too \experienced since the majority of JG11 was completely rebuilt with new recruits just 6 months prior, unless it was one of the Staffelkapitaen's or Gruppenkommandeur's who were retained when the Geschwader was rebuilt... which is possible since Gunther Specht, Geschwaderkommandeur of JG11 at the time IIRC, who served from the beginning of the war (originally a 110 pilot), was killed in the battle.
I am well aware that wing loading is what's important and weight alone means little. Nonetheless, the 109G has smaller wingloading than the Mustang, but also has a MUCH higher power to weight ratio, which also helps a lot with turn radius.
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Well no matter what you think of it ,it has to be one of the best looking rides out their ;)
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(Too incompetent to pull the stick and around in a circle?!?!?)
Umm... yes... again, 'Shooting down Spit 16's in a turnfight vs ponies and Ta152s....' You don't seem to realize how little training these pilots got. IIRC it was something like 8-12 hours flight time in the 109 before being shipped to the front.
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No one wins those fights in AHII by literally going around in in-plane circles with the much better turning airplane. Its usally done with some sort of pirouette/low yo-yo maneuver to get an angle. Often enough, combined with gratutitous E-mismanagement on the part of the opposition. Wherease there are many cases where the Mustang pilots report pulling lead and killing 109s in what are more or less Luftberrys.
Oh yes, an if the inexperienced Luftwaffe flyers were afraid to pull hard enough to deploy the leading edge slats, it might be because 1. They were not all Ah-nold, and could not haul the 109's heavy control column back at higher airspeeds as easily as the cartoon pile-it does, and 2, because sudden slats deployment on the 109 could potentially destablize a gun solution and even be abit dangerous. I have never yet had an uneven slat deployment in an AHII 109, no matter how brutally I mis-coordinated the ball and TRIED to generate one. ;)
Umm... yes... again, 'Shooting down Spit 16's in a turnfight vs ponies and Ta152s....' You don't seem to realize how little training these pilots got. IIRC it was something like 8-12 hours flight time in the 109 before being shipped to the front.
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No one wins those fights in AHII by literally going around in in-plane circles with the much better turning airplane. Its usally done with some sort of pirouette/low yo-yo maneuver to get an angle. Often enough, combined with gratutitous E-mismanagement on the part of the opposition. Wherease there are many cases where the Mustang pilots report pulling lead and killing 109s in what are more or less Luftberrys.
When I say 'I won a turnfight with a Spitfire Mk16', I mean he was on my six and I thought what the hell will it hurt and banked and yanked until the situation had reversed, NOT using yo-yo's and other vertical manuevers.
Oh yes, an if the inexperienced Luftwaffe flyers were afraid to pull hard enough to deploy the leading edge slats, it might be because 1. They were not all Ah-nold, and could not haul the 109's heavy control column back at higher airspeeds as easily as the cartoon pile-it does, and 2, because sudden slats deployment on the 109 could potentially destablize a gun solution and even be abit dangerous. I have never yet had an uneven slat deployment in an AHII 109, no matter how brutally I mis-coordinated the ball and TRIED to generate one. ;)
I've been screwed up by the slats several times in both the 109 and the 262.
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Well no matter what you think of it ,it has to be one of the best looking rides out their ;)
(http://usera.imagecave.com/uptown/Worship.gif) long as I look good..I'm happy!
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K
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The P-51D is quite possiby the easiest kill in the game if you have the E to run it down. (
*GIGGLE*
http://www.mediafire.com/?r1tupeym2n4 (http://www.mediafire.com/?r1tupeym2n4)
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that looked easy enough :D
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the p51d turning circle with flaps down has been mass debated.
it should turn a little better but I do just fine in it.
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the p51d turning circle with flaps down has been mass debated.
it should turn a little better but I do just fine in it.
IMO, the P-51 is the most versatile plane in the game just behind the F4U.
P-51 turns pretty average, (may as well say it) it runs pretty good, dives well, and has a great armament.
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that looked easy enough :D
Classic huh? Did you see how high he came from?
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A good 51 stick can fly circles around most airframes.
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A good 51 stick can fly circles around most airframes.
An average 51 stick can turn around a whole lot.
Last week, I was in a P-51D and I went up against CorkyJr in his P-38G. It was a really fun fight that lasted about 3 or 4 minutes (which you almost never find in the MA) till another 38 jumped in. It was if neither of us could get a good shot off on eachother.
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It's the final P47 model of the war, it did nothing important and less were built than the Me163.
Yeah. Except shoot down jets and buzz bombs. and go 473mph at 30,000ft. And have just about double the number of operational a/c when compared to the Ta-152 we have in here.
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It's the final P47 model of the war, it did nothing important and less were built than the Me163.
an entire squadron was outfitted with it.
it was the end all be all of jugs. If introduced it would need to carry a perk value simular to the F4U-4.. or higher.
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an entire squadron was outfitted with it.
it was the end all be all of jugs. If introduced it would need to carry a perk value simular to the F4U-4.. or higher.
:rock :rock :rock :rock
Heck yea!
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an entire squadron was outfitted with it.
How much combat did it see against other, piloted aircraft?
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How much combat did it see against other, piloted aircraft?
It was better than the Me-163 by performance and there were more of those than the Ta-152. I think they shot down a few German 190s/109s... the norm. Why should it matter though?
1/3 of the time, an Me-163 would explode on the runway.
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The Me163 and the Ta152 shot at piloted aircraft.
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The Me163 and the Ta152 shot at piloted aircraft.
So did the P-47M. But the P-47M didn't explode 1/3 of the time on Take off.
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So did the P-47M.
Are you sure? I haven't seen anything to suggest the P47M shot at anything beside target drones and V1s.
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Are you sure? I haven't seen anything to suggest the P47M shot at anything beside target drones and V1s.
130 P-47Ms were delivered to the 56th Fighter Group, and were responsible for all four of that group's jet shoot-downs.
P-47D-27-RE airframes (serials 42-27385/27388) were taken off the production line at Farmingdale and fitted with the Pratt & Whitney R-2800-57© engine equipped with a larger CH-5 turbosupercharger. This new engine offered a war emergency power of 2800 hp at 32,500 feet with water injection. Air brakes were fitted underneath the wings to aid in deceleration during dives.
(http://This new engine installation was ordered into production in September 1944 for the last 130 P-47D-30-RE aircraft delivered by Farmingdale, the aircraft being subsequently redesignated P-47M-1-RE. The serial numbers of the 130 P-47M-1-RE Thunderbolts built were 44-21108/21237
The first P-47M was delivered in December 1944, and they were rushed to the 56th Fighter Group in Europe. However, engine problems delayed their use until the last few weeks of the war in Europe. Underwing racks were not fitted, as the P-47M was meant to be operated strictly as a fighter.
Performance of the P-47M-1-RE included a maximum speed of 400 mph at 10,000 feet, 453 mph at at 25,000 feet, and 470 mph at 30,000 feet. Initial climb rate was 3500 feet per minute at 5000 feet and 2650 feet per minute at 20,000 feet. Range (clean) was 560 miles at 10,000 feet. Armament was six or eight 0.50-inch machine guns with 267 or 425 rpg. Weights were 10,432 pounds empty, 13,275 pounds normal loaded, and 15,500 pounds maximum. Dimension were wingspan 40 feet 9 3/8 inches, length 36 feet 4 inches, height 14 feet 7 inches, and wing area 308 square feet.)
The new engine installation was ordered into production in September 1944 for the last 130 P-47D-30-RE aircraft delivered by Farmingdale, the aircraft being subsequently redesignated P-47M-1-RE. The serial numbers of the 130 P-47M-1-RE Thunderbolts built were 44-21108/21237
The first P-47M was delivered in December 1944, and they were rushed to the 56th Fighter Group in Europe. However, engine problems delayed their use until the last few weeks of the war in Europe. Underwing racks were not fitted, as the P-47M was meant to be operated strictly as a fighter. interesting :cool:
Performance of the P-47M-1-RE included a maximum speed of 400 mph at 10,000 feet, :O 453 mph at at 25,000 feet, and 470 mph at 30,000 feet. Initial climb rate was 3500 feet per minute at 5000 feet and 2650 feet per minute at 20,000 feet. Range (clean) was 560 miles at 10,000 feet. Armament was six or eight 0.50-inch machine guns with 267 or 425 rpg. Weights were 10,432 pounds empty, 13,275 pounds normal loaded, and 15,500 pounds maximum. Dimension were wingspan 40 feet 9 3/8 inches, length 36 feet 4 inches, height 14 feet 7 inches, and wing area 308 square feet.
Sources:
1. American Combat Planes, Ray Wagner, Third Enlarged Edition, Doubleday, 1982.
2. The American Fighter, Enzo Angelucci and Peter Bowers, Orion Books, 1987.
3. War Planes of the Second World War, Fighters, Volume Four, William Green, Doubleday 1964.
4. United States Military Aircraft since 1909, Gordon Swanborough and Peter M. Bowers, Smithsonian, 1989.
5. The Republic P-47D Thunderbolt, Aircraft in Profile, Edward Shacklady, Doubleday, 1969.
6. Famous Fighters of the Second World War, Volume I, William Green, 1967.
7. Thunderbolt: A Documentary History of the Republic P-47, Roger Freeman, Motorbooks, 1992.
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Are you sure? I haven't seen anything to suggest the P47M shot at anything beside target drones and V1s.
Yup. The unit scored something to the tune of 5 ME-262's, 3 Me-163's, and an assortment of other a/c including buzz bombs during initial testing.
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From what I just read in a P-47 link, some crew chiefs with the 56th were tweeking the engines to get 500mph in level flight..awesome! But by then the war was winding down and the pony had better range and was getting the job done.
It's a good looking aircraft.It's a shame we couldn't get them out a couple years sooner.
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Like I said, the P51 is a greatly underestimated aircraft in a 1v1 environment. This is a fight I had just now in the DA. Now, I am not a good pony stick. I fly it very rarely in the DA when I feel like flying something I don't normally, normally being 109's and 190's (and by normally I mean almost always). I basically fly the P51 like a retarded 109.
Drack38, my opponent in the film, is normally a 38 stick, I would find out later that he is practicing the Kurfuerst because it is assigned to him for FSO tomorrow.
So, we have an 'above average 109 pilot' for 1945 vs. an average P51 for the time period (I say this because we both are probably just as or more familiar with the practice of ACM than the pilots of the time period).
http://www.mediafire.com/?xlh9wxslw1t (http://www.mediafire.com/?xlh9wxslw1t)
That was a really fun fight.
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Well done Motherland.I am an experienced pony pilot(still learning)but its what i fly 90% of the time,And you did just about everything right for a one on one dogfight with the pony.I <S> that performance. :rock
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Good kill on the F6F Steve...you kept the fight in the speed range where a Pony turns about well the F6F and put him out in front by managing your speed better. The F6F allowed you to do this by failing to manage his airspeed. Once once he was out in front, he appeared to be trying to run (which of course is a pointless thing for a Hellcat to try against a Mustang), rather than say barrel-rolling or even turning while scrubbing speed and dropping flaps. If you meant this as an example of "Steve is a Sierra Hotel pilot", I say, I agree, he is. :D However, If you meant this as a refutation of any of my points, it is irrelevant, the fight was all about the opening provided by the F6F's mistake, and had little to do with the relative potential of the airplanes themselves.
<S>
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Good kill on the F6F Steve...you kept the fight in the speed range where a Pony turns about well the F6F and put him out in front by managing your speed better. The F6F allowed you to do this by failing to manage his airspeed. Once once he was out in front, he appeared to be trying to run (which of course is a pointless thing for a Hellcat to try against a Mustang), rather than say barrel-rolling or even turning while scrubbing speed and dropping flaps. If you meant this as an example of "Steve is a Sierra Hotel pilot", I say, I agree, he is. :D However, If you meant this as a refutation of any of my points, it is irrelevant, the fight was all about the opening provided by the F6F's mistake, and had little to do with the relative potential of the airplanes themselves.
<S>
I guess my point is that the pony does has some tricks in it's bag when it's run down. This is related to the pilot as well, I understand.