Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Axis vs Allies => Topic started by: Damionte on July 12, 2008, 11:47:13 AM
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Current rules have put a stranglehold on playability in the AvA.
There's no one online so neither side can launch. Allies can't even do re-supply anymore. We've resupplied the hell out of everything. Except for one city (Which I've been told we can't resupply anyway) everything is back to 100%.
Can't we call this one early and just start getting ready for the next evolution?
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I'm going to have to agree whole heartedly here, as well as ask for some kind of retooling of the rules. I believe that everyone here will abide by them because I have seen first hand, since I have been on leave I seem to spend an enormous amount of time in there. Any how, I believe that because people wish to obey the rules, this explains why no one is ever in there except for a few hours out of the 24 hours a day. A few can be defined as small as 3 and as many 8, depending on which part of the country your from :)
Just a thought here...
Maybe we could expand Rule 6 to include the limited destruction of only strategic targets or even a certain type of strategic target.
or.....
It seems that the Axis are less interested in the main goal of this tour. The only reason I assume this is because of the lack of damage recieved on our strats. I think its a possibility that we might want to restructure the parameters of the upcoming tours to avoid this type of setup. And by type, I mean pure destruction of strategical assets. Even though it was complained about even then, maybe an element of base capture....
Base Capture:
1.) Brings oppurtunity for the GV'ers
2.) Allows for Dogfighting
3.) Leaves room for Bomber Boys
The overall welfare of the AvA depends on our ability to bring fresh blood in here. I believe a way to do that is to give oppurtunity to everyone that wants it.
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It seems that the Axis are less interested in the main goal of this tour. The only reason I assume this is because of the lack of damage recieved on our strats.
I think the axis disinterest in bombing goes much further than this particular tour. So far as I know, there are no axis bomber squadrons. If they exist, I apologize for getting it wrong, but I've never seen more than a single vic of JU88s in the ava arena. The 234 is an interesting aircraft, but making a perfect drop on a strat I wasn't even able to take it down by 10%. With JU88s I was able to take down a strat by nearly 30%, so the capability is there, but not the desire.
Part of the reason for the lack of interest is the near defenselessness of the JU88. Maybe the addition of the JU188 or HE177 would motivate an interest because these bombers were equipped with a heavier defensive armament.
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That really does make sense. I never thought about it that way. If you had a bomber you could at least hap hazzardly defend yourself, then it might make a difference in the gameplay. Anyhow...these are good thoughts for the staff. I'm not sure how feasable it would be to introduce a new model into the repotoire but its definatley something the staff should think about if this is truely the wave of the future. :aok
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Well Guys it is Sat afternoon 5;30 CST and the arena is empty and again I am moved to ask the rhetorical question? Who will be the first to log on? Restrictive rules about this have created an empty arena. While there are those of us who would log on and get the ball rolling we are restricted from doing that and the rest of the flying population have no intrest in logging into an empty arena. If we have learned anything from this I hope that we have come to the conclusion that some general guideline be established and after that let it happen. An abundance of tedious and restrictive rules have created an empty arena.
Maj OldBull
XO Avengers
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Gavagai,
In the past AvA setups have used substitute aircraft to simulate those missing in the AHII arsenal. I love the speed and defensive capacity of the Ki67. Does it have any simularities to either of the aircraft that you mentioned? Are there any other bombers (allied included) that could be skinned and give a reasonable substitution for historical sakes?
I am very interested in gathering like minded map builders, and graphic skinners for the AvA purposes. If interested please PM me here.
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In the past AvA setups have used substitute aircraft to simulate those missing in the AHII arsenal. I love the speed and defensive capacity of the Ki67. Does it have any simularities to either of the aircraft that you mentioned? Are there any other bombers (allied included) that could be skinned and give a reasonable substitution for historical sakes?
The Ki67 is more lightly armed (IIRC) and carries a much lighter bombload than any of the bombers Gavagai mentioned.
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Okay, with the given planeset could Lancasters be skinned to resemble anything acceptable?
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No.
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One solution that was used in the past... I don't remember if we did it here or in the old Warbirds Historic Arena was let the Axis use the B-17 model for a P.108 substitue.
Here's a link on the Itailian P.108 This would give the Axis a heavy bomber for these wars and might pump some bloood into the thing.
http://kits.kitreview.com/p108bserieireviewbg_1.htm
I'm not a bomber guy, maybe Oldbull or one of the Avengers might know more about the P.108
I think Oldbull is pretty much spot on, we have restricted ourselves into an empty arena. The BOA was a great idea, but like anything else until you try it many of the bugs or drawbacks are hidden from view. The conditions of victory and the limitations of play didn't really hurt this scenario until the third frame. It just got stale for many, not everyone by any means but many. I'm thinking TheBug is on to a great idea with his campaign series.
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maybe im over stepping my bounds, but maybe you should give axis atleast lancasters. just a thought ;)
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The B17 is closest to that P109.
The B24 and Lancaster carry too large a load to approximate it. Even that is generous considering they only even built 2 dozen of those bombers. Still if HT is ever looking for the next bomber sto put in the game the P109 should be it. Gives the axis a 4 engined bomber and a transport of their own.
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The B17 is closest to that P109.
Even that is generous considering they only even built 2 dozen of those bombers.
This is true Drack, but the nature of the War scenarios we've been running are hardly historic setups.
If people want a War Game especially a Strategic War Game based on the victory parameters we've been using, you're forced to get creative.
Germany's strategic war weapon was the U Boat. Even the Battle of Britain wasn't a strategic bombing campaign. It was an aerial campaign softening up defenses prior to invading.
The USAAF and the RAF were really the only ones to carry out strategic bombing campaigns. So it's going to be hard to reproduce one where both sides have a chance without substitutes of some kind.
Unless of course you're going to make it The Allied bomb and the Axis defend as it was historically.
<S>
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The P.108 is very close in armament, payload and performance with the B17 (Thanks to the website reference by Shifty). The 108 actually carried 1700 pounds in tonnage over the B17. I havn't reserched the Lancs or other possibles yet.
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Lancasters carried some 14,000 pounds of iron and aren't very well armed. Only 6 guns. :huh
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The B24 seems to be the closest in likeness to the P.108. Carries 8,000 pounds in ords and 10 MGs for defense.
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This is axis vs allies I say no to mixing up the planes. It's bad enough they have to use our c47. Now that they have the whiblewind they don't have to use our m16 but to me it clearly outclasses the m16 so I want access to it for the allies. Since allies don't have a jet fighter should the allies be given access.
Where does it stop.
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maybe im over stepping my bounds, but maybe you should give axis atleast lancasters. just a thought ;)
Yuk.
Maybe we should all masturbate with cheese graters.
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This is axis vs allies I say no to mixing up the planes. It's bad enough they have to use our c47. Now that they have the whiblewind they don't have to use our m16 but to me it clearly outclasses the m16 so I want access to it for the allies. Since allies don't have a jet fighter should the allies be given access.
Where does it stop.
Flat that's what makes BOA bogus, it's not a historical battle. It's a made up strat game using a flight sim. F4U1Cs fighting against Bf-109Fs is just as absurd as using Axis B-17s.
There's not one thing historical about BOA. Good question where does it stop? The best idea for an historical war is Bugs campaign series he's working on.
<S>
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Before we go dismissing the whole thing. I think we were on to something with the B17 and it's comparison to the P108 in Shifty's link. Not just for the BOA which is about over, but as a replacement for missing Axis heavy bombers. I bet Trukk and the 78th would make good use of them. If skinned differently, and showing Italian markings, I bet they would make for some interesting screen shots.
:rock It is good to hear both sides still. And I am encouraged by the positive lessons that I am learning from intelligent discussions in this forum. :salute
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Nice idea there with the P.109... would give us Allies something slow to shoot at.
But I digress... If the strats are sucha pain, why not go back to pure air war?
BoA?
:salute
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The P.108 comes close to matching the B17 in many ways, one of it's chief designers worked on the B17. It also has the very large advantage of having a similar profile, nothing else comes close to matching an axis heavy bomber profile. The biggest down side is the icon being drug along over the top of it.
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I think the axis disinterest in bombing goes much further than this particular tour. So far as I know, there are no axis bomber squadrons. If they exist, I apologize for getting it wrong, but I've never seen more than a single vic of JU88s in the ava arena. The 234 is an interesting aircraft, but making a perfect drop on a strat I wasn't even able to take it down by 10%. With JU88s I was able to take down a strat by nearly 30%, so the capability is there, but not the desire.
Part of the reason for the lack of interest is the near defenselessness of the JU88. Maybe the addition of the JU188 or HE177 would motivate an interest because these bombers were equipped with a heavier defensive armament.
SG2 is a bomber squad and we have escorted them on a couple of missions where they've flown the Ju-88. But you're right in that generally any bomber fan is going to fly for the Allies because they went big into four engine bombers.
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But you're right in that generally any bomber fan is going to fly for the Allies because they went big into four engine bombers.
And who can blame them. The Avengers are what made all the difference for the Allies. It has nothing to do with the Axis not having the will to fight, or being out thought or out played. I saw the 78th make many a strat attack with 190s.
Lucky for us we had the bigest stick in the game and had a squadron over here that knew how to use them, that gave us a huge advantage. Luttrel, and Old Bull could pretty much make things disapear for us. If we were forced to jabo everything, or had been restricted to B25s or B26s it may have been different. Although I think the Avengers could wear you out with medium bombers as well.
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That being the case, maybe the victory conditions should be different for each team. Sort of like a scenario where you know one side is going to "lose", but if they hold out beyond X time (or something like that) they win the scenario.
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That being the case, maybe the victory conditions should be different for each team. Sort of like a scenario where you know one side is going to "lose", but if they hold out beyond X time (or something like that) they win the scenario.
Exactly Trukk, the problem with BOA, is both sides are trying to win the same Strategic victory conditions, but one side is limited to a tactical Air Force.
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A '44-45 western front Campaign Series, that still offered a base capture but placed a value on Axis strats solely might be the way to go. The strat hardness could be increased greatly to limit it so that the only effective way to attack it would be with the heavies. The Allies would get points or increase Axis downtimes by hitting the strats, Axis would get the same for defending them. Would most likely have to do some calculating on the max damage a squadron sized Heavy raid could do to generate a victory point level.
I am also thinking that maybe a perk still system to limit the planeset might be they way to go with this one. It would be great to include planes like the 262 and 163 but if limited to a base the Allies could still see a unrealistic amount upping if they attack in the base's area. By incorporating some type of a perk system, the occasional rocket fighter upping to intercept will add excitement to both sides.
Just kinda thinking out loud, there has to be a way to make a historical arena that still is "fun". Need to keep thinking and be prepared( and OPEN) to makechanges mid-setup to tweak these new ideas coming on. Also should be prepared to pull the plug on something that is evidently not working. The health of the arena now that it has finally got a pulse again, should be a concern for all of us not just the staff.
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That being the case, maybe the victory conditions should be different for each team. Sort of like a scenario where you know one side is going to "lose", but if they hold out beyond X time (or something like that) they win the scenario.
Or, de-emphasize the war and have fun playing a combat simulator. It's never fair. The SEA can be fair because they can create a single balanced scenerio. AvA is 24 hours. Number vary through the day. It's never going to be fair. Look at MA, it's not fair either but people don't care because they are primarily playing a combat simulator and the map reset is secondary. This may be disturbing to some, but since we are a 24 hour arena we are closer to MA then SEA. I very much enjoy the match-ups of Axis vs Allied aircraft and would like to have it more available so I don't think that it's a bad thing to be closer to MA. The alternative to make it fair, would be to limit the hours the arena is open and limit the numbers that can play for a side to balance it during those hours.
Venom
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Or, de-emphasize the war and have fun playing a combat simulator.
Looks better everytime I read it.
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Bug has some good ideas.
MAj OldBull
XO Avengers
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Yes he does.
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Look at MA, it's not fair either but people don't care because they are primarily playing a combat simulator and the map reset is secondary.
To me the MAs are more like aircraft simulators as the style of gameplay they encourage isn't anything like air combat in WWII. That's what I hope the AvA can bring to the table (and has been for us the last few weeks), encourage more realistic WWII air combat.
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Bug has some good ideas.
MAj OldBull
XO Avengers
Thank you guys, hopefully get to try some of them. <S>