Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Choocha on July 13, 2008, 08:45:01 PM
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I need to write about what I saw Saturday. I won't give specifics- names, exact location etc. because there is an active criminal case going on and I'm the star witness. But here goes...
I'm at an intersection munching on my Taco Bell. There are four Bikers in front of me. One girl, three guys - all under 30. Light turns green, they wind up their bikes and start to cross into the intersection. They are talking to each other (fatal mistake). In my peripheral vision I catch a speeding car clearly trying to beat the red light. I stop, they continue. At 3 sec into the green light the car streaks into the intersection at a very high speed. 3 SECONDS!!! Everything slowed down. What turned out to be 5 seconds total seems like 15 minutes. BAM!!!!!! The driver takes out 4 bikes in a second. It looked like a mortar round landing a direct hit. Bodies fly into the air in all different directions. One guy lands three feet from my car. Then quiet. Nothing. I open the door in a state of shock. Four bodies in the road, gasoline smell, human skin on the pavement, blood and a miscellaneous foot too. Dead quiet (cause I'm shock). Then, blood curdling screams for help..many. No actor could replicate the horror and desperation in their voices. I walk into the center of the accident, I'm in a pool of blood and gasoline. More screams..."God Help me!!!" from one..."I don't want to die," from another.
Then my salvation comes. An off duty doctor, still in his greens makes it to me and yells for me to help him. I snap out of it and jump to attention. We go from victim to victim accessing each. The first one we make it to has no pulse. Flat line. I help the doctor with chest compressions. ER nurse drives by and springs into action. She works on the girl who is screaming the loudest. She tells the doctor that she is alive but probably severed her spinal cord. The nurse moves on. A strange mix of an off duty cop and a couple of outlaw bikers take over the scene and dispatch gawkers. Four ambulances + fire rescue trucks arrive. 10 minutes into chest compressions and nothing. He's hooked up to a ventilator and compressions continue. Two men have "minor injuries," shattered femurs etc. The girl is bad off. They spend a lot of time and attention on her... mulling over options to move here. She has lost a lot of skin and her leg looks like a hamhock. They fear internal injuries and move her..she's off. 20 minutes into the accident, the first guy still has no pulse. Chest compressions continue and he is rushed
off with no pulse...not good. Fire department the whole time is laying down sawdust onto the mix of blood and gasoline. They are scared of a combustion event which would have swallowed us up. They warn us and we continue at our own peril. The poor souls are gone now and the mode swings decidedly into a different direction: what the fu ck happened and who is responsible? If there is intrest I will write part two answering these questions.
Why would any sane person ride a motorcycle?
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Don't blame the bike for the fault of stupid riders and drivers.
Sorry you had to see this.
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You'd ride a bike for the same reason you wouldn't stay in mama's womb where it's safe. It's everyone's choice what to do with their own life, after all.
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..
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Well that's something else.. I do agree it's way too easy to get a license in the US. I don't want to derail or open a can of worms, but it's the same as with general education. It's not thorough and strict enough.
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Yes, but I'm convinced the general driving public is not mature enough in this country to drive a long side of bikes
Yes, please, save us from ourselves...
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I'll leave this thread to the nanny state socialists.
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If you saw these kids lying on the pavement begging for their lives maybe u would have a different opinion. They will be with me for the rest of my life.
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I'll leave this thread to the nanny state socialists.
You think it's a stretch into socialism to think that bikes, guns, and other dangerous machinery ought to have licensing adapted to favor safe use? Driving safely and efficiently is certainly not a skill that most people are born with.
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You think it's a stretch into socialism to think that bikes, guns, and other dangerous machinery ought to have licensing adapted to favor safe use? Driving safely and efficiently is certainly not a skill that most people are born with.
Here's the way it works.
If I'm operating a contraption that has the ability to hurt you and yours, restrict away.
If I'm operating a contraption that impairs my ability to protect myself from you hurting me and mine, mind your own business.
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I must not be sane. How else can I answer that question? That kind of scene happens to people in cross walks and on pedal bikes. Are these people sane? Too many are too comfortable in there vehicles driving along with no respect for anyone else. Many times an accident can be avoided if the people involved were more aware of what they are doing instead of how fast they can get to where they are going. It's a shame that these things happen and it's horrifying to see first hand, but I don't think sanity has much to do with it.
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There were many victims that day. Not just the bikers. The doctor, nurse and myself stood in a pool of gasoline to help them. It was a dangerous scene. People were crying and shaking at the sight of these beautiful kids struggling to live. Lives will be changed forever.
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You think it's a stretch into socialism to think that bikes, guns, and other dangerous machinery ought to have licensing adapted to favor safe use? Driving safely and efficiently is certainly not a skill that most people are born with.
All the licensing in the world won't save you from stupidity. All the regulations and laws in the world won't stop someone from doing something he really wants to do.
Most murders are committed by illegally owned weapons. Most accidents are caused by illegally performed motor vehicle maneuvers.
You could license the person who drove the car from here to kingdom come. You could put them through a year of segregated "Driving Death Camp" to instill in them safe driving. Yet someone, somewhere will feel it prudent to run a red light.
You could outlaw the use of Motorcycles. However had the motorcycles not been there, a car would have. Instead of several bikes being taken out by someone breaking the law, a regular automobile would have been hit. And from here it is only conjecture whether or not there would have been people in the passenger side of the car. Odds tell us that there wouldn't have been. But then again Odds also tell us that 4 people on bikes won't get taken out by someone running a red light.
It is a stretch into socialism. A tiny one at that. Socialists think that they can create new restrictive laws and make the world a safe place. Yet every law restricting free choice by free citizens does nothing to make this place safer. So not only are things not better off, but they are actually worse when Socialists are given free reign.
That is why Socialists need to be stopped, checked into the boards, and kicked in the face at every given opportunity.
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I am glad you jumped in to help.
Nail that car driver to the wall in court. He deserves to serve time.
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Consider this.
Had they been in a car instead of on bikes and hit broadside that way
Its entirely possabe and indeed probable you would have had the same outcome. And possibly worse because they would have been trapped in the car.
Rough deal either way
I dont envy you.
What happened to the driver?
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Consider this.
Had they been in a car instead of on bikes and hit broadside that way
Its entirely possabe and indeed probable you would have had the same outcome. And possibly worse because they would have been trapped in the car.
Rough deal either way
I dont envy you.
What happened to the driver?
;) Beat you to it.
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Ok, Part II...the driver. The state troopers got to her. At first, she was walking in circles mumbling while the rest were fighting for their lives so we ignored her. Then the troopers arrived photographing everything and got to her. They asked her like three questions and the cuffs came out. She was clearly impaired by something. Before I could blink she was taken away for blood work.
And thats it.
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Here's the way it works.
If I'm operating a contraption that has the ability to hurt you and yours, restrict away.
If I'm operating a contraption that impairs my ability to protect myself from you hurting me and mine, mind your own business.
I'm all for that, but for two things I can think of, off-hand: Enough bikers mauled by cars will eventualy get the teeming masses to whine to their politician that something needs to be done for their own good. You can't fight that sort of demographic muscle, and definitely exists and is ready to do just that. And second, bikes and cars definitely have the ability to hurt. Cars are mobile people plows.. And you've seen the pic of an RC30 speared into a sedan, right? This danger paired with ultra melons stunting across lanes on highways is definitely a good reason to up the floor of license requirements. That on its own would be a win-win for everyone, no need to actualy restrict anything else.
Laser I understand you can't help but kneejerk here, but you can't deny that some people don't deserve a dangerous tool. Just as you don't let the legaly blind drive, you don't let the mentaly impotent handle 400lbs machines that do 0-60mph in a few blinks of the eye.
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I am a Firefighter/EMT by trade and have been to many of these types of accidents and seen many gruesome outcomes of them. As a matter of fact I went to one tonight - guy on a motorcycle came around a corner, cat ran out in the road, he trided to dodge and lost control and flipped the bike about 5 times. He was lucky though - only a broken collar bone, cracked ribs & a good case of road rash because he was wearing "SHORTS" of all things. :rolleyes:
1. <S> To you for jumping in and helping. Most people just stand around and gawk (and usually make a pain in the arse of themselves) or are more worried about grabbing up a cell phone or camera to take video so they can show all their friends on U-Tube.
2. Due to the nature of things - there will ALWAYS be idiots among us unfortunately. You cannot limit what people drive or do simply by the fact that "They may hurt themselves" - if you did that no one would ever leave the house again. More than likely if both parties had been driving M1A1 TANKS - there would be injuries on both sides.
3. The fault was the auto drivers by the sound - NOT the motorcyclists. However - They chose to ride these types of vehicles - and they knew the risks. That's why they pay higher insurance premimums.
4. You can't fault people on everything - even being unsafe while driving and eating Taco Bell at the same time. ;)
<S> Again for helping out. :salute
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;) Beat you to it.
Actually you either miss spoke or had a typo when you stated
"And from here it is only conjecture whether or not there would have been people in the passenger side of the car. Odds tell us that there wouldn't have been."
Since they were all together, they were probably all friends going to the same place together.
thus if they were in a car they all would have been in the same car.
That being the case.
Odds are there would have been at least 1 person in the passenger seat.
Unless you know how to cram 4 people in a car without at least 1 of them sitting in a passanger side seat. LOL
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2. Due to the nature of things - there will ALWAYS be idiots among us unfortunately. You cannot limit what people drive or do simply by the fact that "They may hurt themselves" - if you did that no one would ever leave the house again. More than likely if both parties had been driving M1A1 TANKS - there would be injuries on both sides.
You can't limit people on what they can or can't drive, but you can make it so that before they're allowed the privilege of driving (and I think that's how it is, it's not a right) they have to show that they're capable of properly and safely controling their car/bike. Whether they drive well or recklessly after that is all up to them. But there's no sense in handing out a license to someone who doesn't even know how to drive/ride.
And that doesn't change the facts I mentionned in my previous post. The nanny staters are out there and they're waiting for an excuse to limit your free will.
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You can't limit people on what they can or can't drive, but you can make it so that before they're allowed the privilege of driving (and I think that's how it is, it's not a right) they have to show that they're capable of properly and safely controling their car/bike. Whether they drive well or recklessly after that is all up to them. But there's no sense in handing out a license to someone who doesn't even know how to drive/ride.
And that doesn't change the facts I mentionned in my previous post. The nanny staters are out there and they're waiting for an excuse to limit your free will.
Last time I checked they did. Cops pull them over around here and they don't have that "M" on their license they get a warning about it. Next time they get a ticket.
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Holy Crap dude. Was that a hit-and-run?
A friend of mine last year got hit by a lady going 75-80 in a 55mph intersection... Crushed the whole side of his face and broke the passengers ankle... And he got sued. I'd rather be driving around a car that gets 10 Miles to the gallon than a motorcycle......
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Jester,
The bike license the last time I passed it was a joke. I saw some guy who couldn't get the shifts right (his bike all but wheelied while he rodeod it for a second or two, trying to undo his instinct to grip the right handle and pin the throttle 75% open in the process) pass his test like nothing was wrong. Overall it doesn't push the rider nearly as thoroughly as it should.
I don't know if the question test is as easy as the car license test (I got a waiver from taking the safety class), but that's way too lenient too. I don't care what they do after they get the license, but they ought to at least make it so only someone who's really ready to drive/ride ought to get a license.
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I ride a bike, just started recently. I am aware of the dangers. I ride for a few reasons:
1: It is fun. I love the feel of the open road, the wind, and the freedom.
2: It saves me almost triple in gas. 40+ MPG vs ~15 in the truck.
3: It is relaxing. I can take off and zoom around for an hour and forget all my worries.
Regarding the accident above, I can only say from my limited experience. I never start from an intersection without looking both ways even when I have a green. Maybe it is because I am a new rider, but I am extra cautious. I always wear jeans, and a leather jacket with skid pads.
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Those folks lost SA in a big way. Sorry you had to witness that, but I sense your actions helped save lives.
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When I drive my Car, Work truck, or my bike(motor not commie) I always assume everyone on the road is a drunken imbecile on the phone who has a deliberate intent to ram me.
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I don't know if the question test is as easy as the car license test (I got a waiver from taking the safety class), but that's way too lenient too. I don't care what they do after they get the license, but they ought to at least make it so only someone who's really ready to drive/ride ought to get a license.
Driving's not all that different than Aces High, really. The bottom line is the majority of the population is never going to get all that good at it. Considering how limited our public transportation options are around here, living with people who don't know what they're doing is just the way it is. A lot of nice people die because of it, but there's not really any way to change it.
Following numerous high-profile teenage driving deaths in Connecticut (sadly, many from my particular town), new laws have been passed upping the requirements for first time license applicants, and restricting teen drivers from driving at certain times and with certain passengers, and, I believe, upping the age before they can start (not sure on this last one).
I have serious doubts that this will accomplish anything save making it even harder for a teenager to get a job around here. When pretty much the only jobs that'll take teenagers have shifts that close at 11 p.m., and they aren't allowed to drive past 10 p.m., I don't really know what they're going to do.
All I do know, is no law on the books ever stopped me from thinking I was invincible when I was 16.
Also worth noting is the only real way to get better at driving is to drive often. As gas prices and teen restrictions increase, average driving skill will decrease.
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Also worth noting is the only real way to get better at driving is to drive often. As gas prices and teen restrictions increase, average driving skill will decrease.
Well said. I agree.
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i understand your shock. i ride. have been for 20 years now, and have had a few close calls, ALL from drivers that either didn't see me or being just plain stupid like this guy was.
i still won't stop riding. love it. it's a feeling that's hard to describe. you have to experience it to understand.
and, yes, if you don't mind typing, lets hear more please.
<<S>>
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If you saw these kids lying on the pavement begging for their lives maybe u would have a different opinion. They will be with me for the rest of my life.
i've seen the immediate aftermath of a vanload of 12 having a head on wiht a semi......smoking bodies in the van after the fire went out and all. i've seen a fatal accident at front street in philly caused by racing.
i still drive, and i still race(although not on the strreet anymore),
now.......you might want to consider some sort of CISM(Critical Incident Stress Management), as it is VERY hard for the average person to deal with something like this.
we use this in CAP all the time after SAR missions.
<<S>>
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I hope those kids will eventually be ok. Dammit, they should have looked.. they should have looked.
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Running red lights seems to be a particular problem in the US. Seems some drivers consider them advisory rather than compulsory. And yes - driving tests are far far too easy.
That said, even with higher driving test standards in the UK, the percentage of imbeciles on the road seems about the same. Lets face it - most accidents are caused by things unlikely to ever be caught in a driving test scenario - inappropriate speed, inattention and bravado.
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Vudak,
I agree that most won't ever get any good at it, and that the age limit revision and curfews are token measures.. Speaking of which, if anything's nannyism, it's curfews. The age limit change only makes sense if it's backed up by concrete evidence, such as its implementation affecting things for the best. That can't be for sure unless they'd made only it change and everything else remain the same, though.
IMO the tests are too easy, too lax. If tests truly are nannyism (BS, IMO), then we ought to get rid of them entirely. Give everyone the right to drive cars... Obviously, that's nonsense. The license tests are there for a good reason. Is that reason done justice to? IMO, no. And that's not nannyism, anymore than a psych eval isn't in view of a firearms license issuance. You ought to be able to deal with all the potential dangers on the road, which DO happen, and are as likely as not to happen when you don't expect them.
Everytime I come back to the US, driving on the highways makes me drowsy and apprehensive at the same time. I dread that the 95% of drivers who drive like slugs on somnifers won't realise they're in an accident till it's already happened, and I also start to drone from the lack of anything happening.
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Thankfully here in Oz you need to prove proficiency before you can be licensed, and although there are some thorough donkeyrecesses driving that really shouldn't be, the testing procedures and initial restrictions are overall pretty effective.
I ride a bike, and I drive a cage. When I ride I assume everyone in a cage wants to kill me.
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Getting one's driving license (automobile) here in Ontario is a joke. Most of those today would fail the test that I had to take 40 years ago. Getting a motorcycle driving license is much harder. The nephew who had his car license for ~4 years failed his motorcycle test.
http://www.mto.gov.on.ca/english/dandv/driver/gradu/index.html
I learned to drive on a bike and was the best thing I ever did as it taught me defensive driving. So far I have been accident free with both vehicles.
Advertising (going fast with handling) and the safety features in cars make car drivers think they are indestructible Andrettis.
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here we have many elderly drivers. from time to time one manages to take out pedestrians or people waiting for buses. maybe we should ban walking and bus stops as well.
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I hope those kids will eventually be ok. Dammit, they should have looked.. they should have looked.
yea, they should have. when i'm on my bike, i'm watching the cross street traffic while i sit there. lets me see the guy tht's probably gonna try to run the light. hell, i do that in my car too. but then, i've been riding for 20 years, and driving for 27 or so........
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Laser I understand you can't help but kneejerk here, but you can't deny that some people don't deserve a dangerous tool. Just as you don't let the legaly blind drive, you don't let the mentaly impotent handle 400lbs machines that do 0-60mph in a few blinks of the eye.
It's not a knee jerk reaction if I see the same thing happening time and time again. Everytime something unfortunate happens, people let their emotions get the best of them and want to start banning things left and right.
I do agree that some people don't deserve a dangerous tool. But given the law of diminishing returns, it will cost you more and more (money and freedom) exponentially to get the bad drivers off the road.
And it's like Eric Cartmen said on Southpark about Family Guy. "If you get one episode pulled for ANY reason, then it is so much easier to get the next episode pulled. Then the next. Soon, anyone who even feels they've been slighted will ask for an episode to be pulled. Soon, Family Guy will be cancelled!"
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Running red lights seems to be a particular problem in the US. Seems some drivers consider them advisory rather than compulsory. And yes - driving tests are far far too easy.
That said, even with higher driving test standards in the UK, the percentage of imbeciles on the road seems about the same. Lets face it - most accidents are caused by things unlikely to ever be caught in a driving test scenario - inappropriate speed, inattention and bravado.
sometimes when i'm slow in the shop, i watch traffic at the intersection outside.
neither road at this intersection is considered a main road, although they are heavily traveled during rush hours.
at any time during the day, on average, 3.....that's THREE cars run that light. not blowing the amber light, but AFTER it's clearly red. that's completley ridiculous.
as for driver training, i think it could be better. a large part of the problem that compounds poor driver training, though is the formation of bad habits, and knowing that once you have your lisence, you have it.
they should look at the FAA and what you need to do to keep your pilots lisence. under the age of 40, you take a physical every 3 years. over 40, you take it every 2 years.
regardless of your age, you take a biannual test. min. one hour ground, and min. one hour practical(in the air).
drivers lisence requirements should emulate this, for everyone, regardless of age.
this would help prevent bad habits from forming. people knowing full well that they hae to pass a couple tests in 2 years or less will be more attentive to what they're doing.
you know as well as me that 90% of the drivers out there would fail a drivers test if an instructor jumped in the car with them this morning without any warning to test them.
how many pilots can you say that about?
anyway.......
<<S>>
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Laser, I never said to ban anything. There doesn't need to be money spent on getting bad drivers off the road if they don't get on in the first place.
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a drunk drives through a redlight and hits a bunch of motorcycles and you question why they were riding bikes?? you should run for office here in massachusetts! our senators and Reps have the same mentality!!
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It is also possible that had the riders not been wearing helmets,their increased peripheral and hearing might have prevented this.
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when the light turns green i make sure all cross traffic has stopped before i entire the danger zone. Riding a motorcycle gave me a new sense of defensive driving and SA.
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Perhaps everyone should spend some time on a bike before they get a car license?
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Ok.. choo... I rode since I was 15.... I rode for many years and have seen a lot of really bad stuff... I have held a guy while he died.
It is not even that.. I have been in some bad ones myself.. I had a leg literally ripped off.. I laid in the street looking at the bone sticking out of my boot and a chunk of meat holding everything on.. 3 years of not really using that leg after a half dozen operations. I have hit cars t bone and went over the top. I have went down at speed. I know exactly what can happen. I ride now in little jaunts around town and am on edge and ultra cautious.. which.. is maybe not as safe as less paranoid.. I know.. that sounds wrong but it isn't.. I hesitate when I see people stopped... "does she see me?.. is she gonna pull out?"
I know how a nice day can be turned into a nightmare of pain and months or years of agonizing recovery but...
Leave me the hell alone... You are not "helping" me in the least when you regulate.
What is common about all my years riding and the wrecks? I never wore a helmet.. not once.. I never once injured my head either. I hate helmets still.. it is dangerous to ride or hike or ride a bicycle or go camping or swimming... how bout everyone let me decide on the chance I am taking,. I don't need your seatbelt laws or your helmet laws.
lazs
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It is also possible that had the riders not been wearing helmets,their increased peripheral and hearing might have prevented this.
I don't belie ve in helmet laws. i do wear my helemt most of the time, but think it should be my choice.
that said.....it it were a hotrod that hit them, or something with louder exhaust i'd agree. most likely was a ""normal"" car that wasn't making enough noise either way.
whatever the driver was on, the only thing that might've helped those bikers was for them to have looked before they took off.
now that i've thought a bit more about it, i'm also wondering if the driver was on any revoked lists or suspended already?
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Why would any sane person ride a motorcycle?
Wrong question.
The right question would be , why wasn`t there a sane person operating the vehicle that hit them?
Why ride? Freedom.
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Perhaps everyone should spend some time on a bike before they get a car license?
good idea on the surface. badc idea in reality. you ever seen an incurably cllumsy person on a cycle? or a just plain stupid one?
al they'd do would be to help give cyclests a bad name.
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Yeah, maybe not a full bike, just stick them on a moped for 6 months when they are 16 so they learn how to watch where they are going and what the traffic is doing. Folks just cannot (or will not) read traffic anymore.
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One thing i learned riding a bike was to never use mirrors for a lane change.Always a shoulder check(or two) even when i drive a car.That second vis has prevented several auto accidents over the years too and it was learned from riding bikes.
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yep.. put a finger on the nose bridge of your raybans and turn around.
lazs
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If you saw these kids lying on the pavement begging for their lives maybe u would have a different opinion. They will be with me for the rest of my life.
Seen it many times, but most of the time its just "regular" veihicles involved. You wounldnt quit driving your car if what you had witnessed involved a minnivan with 8 passengers and a semitruck, would you? (that was a bad one) *shivers*
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Yeah, maybe not a full bike, just stick them on a moped for 6 months when they are 16 so they learn how to watch where they are going and what the traffic is doing. Folks just cannot (or will not) read traffic anymore.
that way's not really a bad idea at all.......
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Seen it many times, but most of the time its just "regular" veihicles involved. You wounldnt quit driving your car if what you had witnessed involved a minnivan with 8 passengers and a semitruck, would you? (that was a bad one) *shivers*
semi vs ford e350 15 passenger van.....head on on the pa turnpike. smoking wreckage, smoking bodies still in it, a couple bodies that were ejected on impact.....bad bad thing to see......
and no, didn't and wouldn't now......
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semi vs ford e350 15 passenger van.....head on on the pa turnpike. smoking wreckage, smoking bodies still in it, a couple bodies that were ejected on impact.....bad bad thing to see......
and no, didn't and wouldn't now......
How was it head on? (I'm familiar with the Turnpike).
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I rode dirt bikes for several years. I love them to death, but I will not ride street bikes. The difference being, with dirt bikes, I'm responsible for my own actions, with Street Bikes, I'm trusting someone else not to be an idiot.
If you do feel the need to ride a street bike then get a big old heavy Harley, take your time and drive defensively.
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How was it head on? (I'm familiar with the Turnpike).
IT was truely amazing...and a 1 in a million thing.........the van driver apparently fell asleep at the wheel, and the van drtifted......right through the small opening in the concrete barrier where police do their turn arounds......there was nothing the semi driver could do to avoid it....and we couldnt believe that the van actually got through that opening.
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"Why would any sane person ride a motorcycle?"
First off I want to salute you for the way you helped my fellow bikers out. It took alot of guts to stand in blood and gasloine to help those people in their time of need...... :salute
I believe in a previous post you said the lady that caused this accidient was taken away in cuffs. Which leads me to believe she was drunk or high on something. In your above quote you ask why would a sane person ride a motorcycle. My question to you is why would a sane person drive drunk. If those bikers weren't there it could have been you getting hit, or some kids crossing the street, or some people on bicycles crossing the road, or a minivan full of kids or a family. I ride alot and I'm very cautious when going through an intersection. If I had a dollar for every car or truck that pulled in front of me I'd be living on an island some where resting on a beach. Don't question the sanity of bikers; question the sanity of drunk drivers.
Again :salute
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I am not against people riding motorcycles. I've done it and its a blast.
However, the facts are that you have virtually no protection in the event of a crash, and you are much more difficult to see. (and thats when you are obeying the speed limit...if you are speeding and zipping in and out of traffic you are virtually impossible to see).
The old saying about there being two kinds of motorcyclists is way too true. If you ride them long enough (more than a month) you probably will lay it down.
For me its a personal choice. I choose not to ride because I consider the risk to outweigh the benefits. (Do a google news search with the keywords 'motorcycle accident' and you'll see why)
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I am not against people riding motorcycles. I've done it and its a blast.
However, the facts are that you have virtually no protection in the event of a crash, and you are much more difficult to see. (and thats when you are obeying the speed limit...if you are speeding and zipping in and out of traffic you are virtually impossible to see).
The old saying about there being two kinds of motorcyclists is way too true. If you ride them long enough (more than a month) you probably will lay it down.
For me its a personal choice. I choose not to ride because I consider the risk to outweigh the benefits. (Do a google news search with the keywords 'motorcycle accident' and you'll see why)
riding since i was 26(46 now).
been to florida 3 times, maryland a few times, deleware, ny, pa, conn, and not been down a single time
knocking wood as hit the send key
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I've been in one motorcycle accident. I bought another bike after it was totaled. (I was fine except beat up pretty badly on the skin)
Then I married an ER nurse. (The stories she told were horrific) After we married, I sold the bike, doubt I'll own another one. She rode with me a few times, mainly up to Mt.Rainier (the loop)
The older one gets, the more mortal they feel.
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First point. The folks injured were not at fault just because they rode a motorcycle. The person at fault seems to have been first impaired and secondly ran a red light. Both of those situations are illegal, riding a motorcycle is not. FWIW there are more folks killed in automobiles than on motorcycles. Pedestrians also don't fare well when hit by cars running a red light either. I suppose we should also ban crossing the roadway on foot in a crosswalk so no one gets hurt there. :rolleyes:
Second point. You can train all you want, demand mandatory performance re certifications annually if you wish. That will not stop someone getting STUPID in traffic between testing and re testing. Training is not proof against negligence only the person's desire to drive properly does that. The person will drive just like they are supposed to while being evaluated or observed then proceed to get stupid again when they think no one is watching them. Ever notice folks driving slower and more carefully when a Police car in near by? :huh
Thirdly saying that this is a US problem is also disingenuous. Having seen footage from the many cameras in GB it's obvious that there are PLENTY of idiots there even given the reduced number of licensed drivers. This is a situation endemic to all locations that have folks driving on the roadway not just the US.
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The amount of "Driving on a Suspended License" tickets I write would make any argument about 'regulating' a m00t point. You can suspend privileges, put people in jail and revoke their license altogether; doesn't mean they will comply. In our area, it's getting to the point where we write a ticket for this once jail-able offense, tow the car and send 'em walkin. Only ones who get the chrome bracelets are the habitual offenders (5+ times) and they can bond immediately. No mandatory stay in the pokey like DUI or Domestic Violence carries.
Regulate all you want, the jail is still overcrowded, understaffed and underfunded. Plain and simple.
:aok
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Thirdly saying that this is a US problem is also disingenuous. Having seen footage from the many cameras in GB it's obvious that there are PLENTY of idiots there even given the reduced number of licensed drivers. This is a situation endemic to all locations that have folks driving on the roadway not just the US.
I'm guessing that's in reference to my previous post. If so, I clearly pointed out that even with stricter driving testing in the UK, "the percentage of imbeciles on the road is about the same", so I agree with you.
I stand by my point that running red lights - while of course it happens elsewhere - is a particular problem in the US.
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not reading all 5 pages.
I agree with moot that it is way to easy to get a drivers license here. Some of the things i see on the road to and from work blow my mind as to how that moron could get a license. No way i would get on a motorcycle, theres people cutting off big rigs and SUVs so they can be the first to the red light then leaving the trucks just enough room to stop before they get hit.
That said the last 3 accidents i was in the other person had no insurance or drivers license, so you can make the test as hard as you want and they will still drive.
I had a close call with a motorcycle cop at night once, he got in my blind spot and never saw him. Went to change lanes and thank god he hit the siren to let me know he was there. since then every time change lanes i'm looking for motorcycles in my blind spot even if I've been driving for 50 miles in with no traffic. I treat motorcycles like rigs now i just give them the right away and slow down to let them go where ever they want.
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Years ago I dated an emergency room nurse who told me "never sacrifice your life trying to avoid a collision with a motorcyclist, they know the risk they take".
Not wearing a helmet is definately a choice thing, and a stupid choice at that. Really stupid. Incredibly stupid. Shockingly stupid. But it should be a choice. A choice to help forward the cause of Darwinism, and to supply other people with organs they desperately need.
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I have a good friend who is a motor-cop. He told me that they train them specifically to drive 5-10 MPH faster than traffic and train them with the ability to judge what others' may do. It's odd that the Motor-cop in your situation stayed in the blind spot but you experienced some of his training when he bumped his siren to let you know he was there.
:aok
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I had a close call with a motorcycle cop at night once, he got in my blind spot and never saw him. Went to change lanes and thank god he hit the siren to let me know he was there. since then every time change lanes i'm looking for motorcycles in my blind spot even if I've been driving for 50 miles in with no traffic. I treat motorcycles like rigs now i just give them the right away and slow down to let them go where ever they want.
you only looked in the mirror? and you trust just the mirrors?
i check mirror, then turn my head. i never ever change a lane without being 100% certian that there's no one there. all vehicles have blind spots that you need to double check by actually looking.
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you only looked in the mirror? and you trust just the mirrors?
i check mirror, then turn my head. i never ever change a lane without being 100% certian that there's no one there. all vehicles have blind spots that you need to double check by actually looking.
sorry i didn't spell it out, yes i checked both mirror and looked back never saw him. hence the blind spot
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I've been in one motorcycle accident. I bought another bike after it was totaled. (I was fine except beat up pretty badly on the skin)
Then I married an ER nurse. (The stories she told were horrific) After we married, I sold the bike, doubt I'll own another one. She rode with me a few times, mainly up to Mt.Rainier (the loop)
The older one gets, the more mortal they feel.
For me its just the opposite. Of course this may change with time, but I'd like to take up riding a Harley when I get older. Like 50+ (not even half way there yet). I'm aware of the risks. But when I'm older and have done most of the things I want to do, then I wouldn't be so dismayed if I get taken out.
I know as I have driven that I've almost taken out bike riders. Even though I check mirrors and especially make sure to look myself, I almost hit one that I never even saw.
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laser.. the only thing I can tell you about your thinking is....
We, past 50, have already been where you are at.. you have no idea where we are at.
Your thinking is flawed because of this.
I am a risk taker.. Life without risk is no life at all for me. I have mellowed in my old age but some vestiges of my risk taking personality still remain.. It gets harder to forget the hospital rooms and the broken bones tho when they hurt every day of your life.. a good day is just a few of em hurting a little.
I would not do anything different if I could tho.
lazs
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People are in a big hurry these days. If they only knew they saved just seconds by going through stoplights or speeding,
They would slow down. How many times has a guy come flying by you and you catch him at the next light.
SLOW TF DOWN!! You don't save that much time by driving erratically and fast.You just put your life in jeopardy or
someone else's
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It is also possible that had the riders not been wearing helmets,their increased peripheral and hearing might have prevented this.
You might want to go back and read the original post again, this time reading for comprehension. First off there is no mention of helmet or no helmet at all in it.
Secondly this little bit here is more telling regarding the motorcyclists attention probabilities.
"There are four Bikers in front of me. One girl, three guys - all under 30. Light turns green, they wind up their bikes and start to cross into the intersection. They are talking to each other (fatal mistake)."
Please note that the riders did not seem to have a problem TALKING while riding so therefore hearing would not likely be an issue. Perhaps if they had quiet pipes they might be able to hear something coming. That of course is a totally bogus assumption since again there is no mention of loud pipes in the original and follow up posts.
Perhaps if the drivers were paying attention to the task at hand they might have seen the threat. A simple side to side scan before entering the intersection is a good insurance policy no matter what you are driving, say like a car with the AC, radio and telephone on while yelling at the kids in the back seat much less a motorcycle.
Blaming the collision on the riders wearing helmets is like blaming the red light for not stopping the car. The equipment does not excuse the rider / driver's lack of attention or inability to follow the basic rules of the road. In this case there is also no mention that they WERE wearing helmets either. Perhaps if they were not wearing them the one dead at the scene might have been alive had one been worn.
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People are in a big hurry these days. If they only knew they saved just seconds by going through stoplights or speeding,
They would slow down. How many times has a guy come flying by you and you catch him at the next light.
SLOW TF DOWN!! You don't save that much time by driving erratically and fast.You just put your life in jeopardy or
someone else's
first off......i rarely go through amber lights.....never red ones.
now, that said, time your normal drives through specific areas. you will find that that 45 second red light generally adds up to somewhere in the ballpark of 5 minutes. each one. time to de-accelerate, then wait for the guys in front to finally decide to move, then time to re-accelerate.
it's kinda like a slow motion version of a nascar pitstop. it only takes em 20 seconds(or less) to change 4 tires and add 22 gallons fo fuel, but they're spending almost a full minute out of the race when you combine slowdown, pit road travel, the work itself, then reaccelerate to pit road speed, then to race speed......
i still don't condone running the lights, but i had timed some of these because a good friend of mine was argueing with me about this, years ago.
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now, that said, time your normal drives through specific areas. you will find that that 45 second red light generally adds up to somewhere in the ballpark of 5 minutes. each one...
...i still don't condone running the lights, but i had timed some of these because a good friend of mine was argueing with me about this, years ago.
Until you said you measured it, I was going to call BS. I'm still skeptical but unfortunately I have nothing to back my skepticism up with.
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FWIW there are more folks killed in automobiles than on motorcycles. Pedestrians also don't fare well when hit by cars running a red light either. I suppose we should also ban crossing the roadway on foot in a crosswalk so no one gets hurt there. :rolleyes:
There's way more people driving cars than riding bikes. The stats can't be weighed like that. And then no on in the thread is asking for bikes to be banned. I did say that if enough sheeple keep seeing idiots stunting across lanes on highways and doing other reckless stuff, they will flex their sheer outweighing riders and deminish riders' rights just by whining.
Second point. You can train all you want, demand mandatory performance re certifications annually if you wish. That will not stop someone getting STUPID in traffic between testing and re testing. Training is not proof against negligence only the person's desire to drive properly does that. The person will drive just like they are supposed to while being evaluated or observed then proceed to get stupid again when they think no one is watching them. Ever notice folks driving slower and more carefully when a Police car in near by? :huh
There's no way anyone can argue that drivers in america aren't way more sluggish and less responsive, and (a little more arguably) that they know how to drive a car on the nervous edge as well. Whether that's consequent to culture or the much stricter and thorough license (knowledge and practical) requirements, or some combination of the two, is anyone's guess. I reckon it's the major factor in the US/EU difference though. There's probably an equal amount of idiots behind the wheel and handlebars in both populations, but the idiots in the EU are largely sharper.
Upping the license criteria would force people to better know how to drive, and whether they drive like crap after that is all up to them. It's just like with guns.
Thirdly saying that this is a US problem is also disingenuous. Having seen footage from the many cameras in GB it's obvious that there are PLENTY of idiots there even given the reduced number of licensed drivers. This is a situation endemic to all locations that have folks driving on the roadway not just the US.
Like I said, there's the same idiots everywhere. But people in the US definitely aren't as responsive. I might be biased, I've only driven in the SW (AZ, CA, NM, TX, NV, and some of CO, UT, and OK) of the US, but it's definitely a trend. It's like everyone is on sleeping pills. Add that to the above discussed very lax license requirements and you have an obvious result.
Repoman, it looks like you haven't read my posts either. I never said anything about regulating people. I don't like the idea of forcing or nannyizing anything... I do see that it's way too easy to get a license in the US without being proficient enough at driving. I also see trends in driving habits that sort of favor accidents. If this conversation were about guns, I'd be arguing the same thing: not regulating gun ownership, but ensuring proper minimum criteria to initialy earn a license. I wouldn't be arguing for gun free zones but for anything that favors safe gun handling habits as widely as possible. I wouldn't be making people pay for merely owning a potentialy dangerous tool, but I'd provide people the best opportunities to learn to be as proficient in using those tools correctly, and make stiff penalties for misusing them. Whether they use or misuse them is all up to them.. That's safest and least nanny thing to do.
I can't read the rest of the thread.. My arguments are above.. pretty clear and simple ones.
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I got an Update today:
1) The guy who had no pulse never made it. He was declared DOA but I'm sure he was dead while we were doing CPR. The doctor didn't want to give up on him.
2) The girl who broke her back arrived alive but passed Sun. morning.
3) The other two are listed as critical but will live. State troop said they face "a long road back."
All four were college students at a major University here. No word on the driver...they aren't speaking about her just yet.
Let me say a couple things here. It is just wrong to see such young people on the pavement begging for their lives. Its not right. That hurt me the most. So undignified and cruel.
I was told to be prepared for serious court time. Criminal, civil ...etc.. may go on for years.
P.S. They were all wearing helmet's..didn't help a bit.
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For me its just the opposite. Of course this may change with time, but I'd like to take up riding a Harley when I get older. Like 50+ (not even half way there yet). I'm aware of the risks. But when I'm older and have done most of the things I want to do, then I wouldn't be so dismayed if I get taken out.
I know as I have driven that I've almost taken out bike riders. Even though I check mirrors and especially make sure to look myself, I almost hit one that I never even saw.
On May 11th my roomate was killed on a motorcycle (gsxr 1000....it was way too fast). He had been riding competitively since he was 9 or 10 years old. He was probably the best rider I have ever seen. Unfortunately, when riding those things you have to be on top of things 100% of the time. Making one mistake can cost you your life. The past few months have been really rough on his family, but they seem to be getting better every day. Just be careful and responsible on those things.
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Moot,
You may have read and even quoted my post but you didn't understand most of it that's for sure. You lost the point of most everything I put into it.
I've driven about 40+ of the lower 48. I've also driven in Canada, Mexico and Panama. It is not a US only problem by a large margin. You may wish to consider it that way but it's not that way in my experiance.
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I got an Update today:
2) The girl who broke her back arrived alive but passed Sun. morning.
My heart and love goes out to them. Life is a crazy thing, a wonderful thing, a tragic thing.
:cry
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i'm with lazs2 on this,
you are what you are doing and you do things because what you are,
and not what you would do in 10 or 20 years.
This horrible-accident will mostly affect the elder ones IMHO, the one with alot expirience
and LUCK still survived today doing such a risky sport for years. Like Ripsnort said,
with age priorities change and i'm getting 40 this Sept., hey alot changed in my mind,
but mostly because of our 2 years old daughter.
My prayers for those souls who lost there life in this horrible accident.
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Until you said you measured it, I was going to call BS. I'm still skeptical but unfortunately I have nothing to back my skepticism up with.
well, to be honest, i only timed it because the shop i used to work at had a nitpicker of a manager. i tend to cut things close as i'm not really a morning person. i caught 2 lights on this particular morning, that i had usually managed to miss...i was 15 minutes late that day. he gave me such a rash of chit, that i started timing my drives and which lights i got caught at.
i showed him on paper that the lights caused that much delay. it's not really an excuse for being late, but he pissed me off with his attitude, and i just HAD to prove him wrong when he said he couldn't believe me about it. :D
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So you blame the traffic signals for your inability to get out the door on time to go to work.....
:P
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Second point. You can train all you want, demand mandatory performance re certifications annually if you wish. That will not stop someone getting STUPID in traffic between testing and re testing. Training is not proof against negligence only the person's desire to drive properly does that. The person will drive just like they are supposed to while being evaluated or observed then proceed to get stupid again when they think no one is watching them. Ever notice folks driving slower and more carefully when a Police car in near by? :huh
i kind of think this part may be aimed at one of my comments. when i stated that there should be re-teting every 2 years, think about it before you say it won't work. right this second, if an instructor got into your car with you, and you drove as you normally do, would you pass? be honest. 99% would not. because they/we all know that once we get our lisence, we keep it unles we accumulate toooo many points. we let bad habits form. we get complacent. we decide that ""it"" can never happen to us.
now imagine that you KNOW that if you fail that test in a year, that you lose your lisence till you manage to pass it. now you're gonna be more ""on the ball"" about not letting bad habits develop. you're gonna pay much much more attention to what's going on around ya. just look at most private pilots. we don't let bad habits develop. i think the worst one i'vd gotten, is that i fly my pattern a little sloppy. my CFI generally corrects this with the engine failure routine when he's with me.
i know this wouldn't stop the drunk drivers, it wouldn't stop the guy tht just shot a needle full of some watermelon into his arm, or the gal that just snorted god knows how much watermelon up her nose........but it WILL stop the stupid drivers. it will stop the complacent ones, the guys shaving or reading their newspaper while they shave at 75mph. it will stop the girl doing her mascare or eyeliner in stop and go traffic. it will stop the assssholes that think the amber light means to floor it so they don't have to stop.
it's not the end all/cure all, but i think it wold greatly help.
apologies for the long post
<<S>>
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I got an Update today:
1) The guy who had no pulse never made it. He was declared DOA but I'm sure he was dead while we were doing CPR. The doctor didn't want to give up on him.
2) The girl who broke her back arrived alive but passed Sun. morning.
3) The other two are listed as critical but will live. State troop said they face "a long road back."
All four were college students at a major University here. No word on the driver...they aren't speaking about her just yet.
Let me say a couple things here. It is just wrong to see such young people on the pavement begging for their lives. Its not right. That hurt me the most. So undignified and cruel.
I was told to be prepared for serious court time. Criminal, civil ...etc.. may go on for years.
P.S. They were all wearing helmet's..didn't help a bit.
the helmets did help. two of them are alive.
just as in your car, there are some foreseeable things that all of its safety measures cannot fully protect you from, the helmets have limits too.
seriously.........talk to someone at the hospital, or to the police......get some CISM.......what you saw, and then what you did had to have been as hard as all hell. seek some help. if you don't, this is just gonna eat away at ya. you're not being less "manly" if you go for help. trust me. i've seen how much it can help. like i said before, we use it in CAP. we used it big time when a SAR mission i was on found a downed helicopter.....with both occupants dead.......
<<S>> you did more than most would have sir
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So you blame the traffic signals for your inability to get out the door on time to go to work.....
:P
welllllll...you know......it's that old ""blame anyone or anything except yourself thing"""
hey..i never said i was perfect :rofl :rofl
like i said, even though it was no excuse, once this guy called me a liar, i HAD to do it........ :D
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In the previous 5 pages of posts I noticed a few opinions that (to me) indicated a belief that a death or injury could have occurred just as easily had this involved 2 automobiles.
Of course each individual accident's factors will vary, but overall the figures show a fairly predictive pattern when comparing motorcycle fatalities verses automobile fatalities.
Unfortunately, the figures compiled by the US DOT show that the risks to life and limb are MUCH greater to a motorcycle operator/occupant than to an auto/truck occupant:
OCCUPANT FATALITY RATES BY VEHICLE TYPE, 1996 AND 2006
Fatality rate
Motorcycles Passenger cars Light trucks
1996
Per 100,000 registered vehicles 55.82 18.06 15.18
Per 100 million vehicle miles traveled 21.78 1.50 1.26
2006
Per 100,000 registered vehicles 71.94 13.01 12.95
Per 100 million vehicle miles traveled 38.79 1.10 1.10
Percent Change, 1996-2006
Per 100,000 registered vehicles 28.9% -28.0% -14.7%
Per 100 million vehicle miles traveled 78.1 -26.7 -12.7
Source: U.S. Department of Transportation, National Highway Traffic Safety Administration.
Notice the % of change 1996-2006 category:
Fatalities/100k vehicles increased by nearly 30% for motorcycles and dropped nearly 30% for autos!
Fatalities per 100M vehicle miles traveled increased 78% for motorcycles and decreased 26% for autos!
Not only is it risky to ride a bike but it's getting way riskier as time goes by!
A couple more key statements from the site:
Motorcycles are by their nature far less crashworthy than closed vehicles. They are also less visible to other drivers and pedestrians and less stable than four-wheel vehicles. Operating a motorcycle requires a different combination of physical and mental skills than those used in driving four-wheel vehicles. Motorcyclists and their passengers are more vulnerable to the hazards of weather and road conditions than drivers in closed vehicles.
Motorcyclists were 35 times more likely than passenger car occupants to die in a crash in 2006, per vehicle mile traveled, and eight times more likely to be injured,according to NHTSA.
The fatality rate for motorcyclists in 2006 was 5.5 times the fatality rate for passenger car occupants per registered vehicle, according to the latest data from NHTSA.
http://www.iii.org/media/hottopics/insurance/motorcycle/
I know most riders realize riding a bike involves risk, and of course it's up to each individual to do his own personal risk assessment.
When considering that risk please realize that the bike rider is taking on MUCH more risk than the car driver.
Btw,years ago I was involved in a bike/truck (I was a passenger in the truck) accident.
Bike driven by male with female passenger crossed the double yellow line and struck the truck I was riding in head-on. Estimated combined impact speed 90mph.
(Truck)45mph + (bike)45mph=90mph impact speed.
Both bike riders died at the hospital. The occupants of the truck (3) suffered zero injuries. (If you don't count the mental anguish of witnessing the carnage wrought on those two young people that day.)
Needless to say I'm somewhat biased regarding the risk of bike riding after seeing what it can produce.
Be considerate of the high risk when deciding whether or not you choose to ride..if not for yourself then for someone that loves you and doesn't want to lose you.
Regards,
Sun
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Pesonally, I've broken my leg 2x on a motorcylce. That's enough for me. By the way both times were my fault.
The only reason I haven't been hurt worse is because of good drivers. Thank Goodness.
However, I hold no grudge against those who like the open road and bugs in their teeth. There's a lot of freedom in that.
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In the previous 5 pages of posts I noticed a few opinions that (to me) indicated a belief that a death or injury could have occurred just as easily had this involved 2 automobiles.
Of course each individual accident's factors will vary, but overall the figures show a fairly predictive pattern when comparing motorcycle fatalities verses automobile fatalities.
Unfortunately, the figures compiled by the US DOT show that the risks to life and limb are MUCH greater to a motorcycle operator/occupant than to an auto/truck occupant:
OCCUPANT FATALITY RATES BY VEHICLE TYPE, 1996 AND 2006
Fatality rate
Motorcycles Passenger cars Light trucks
1996
Per 100,000 registered vehicles 55.82 18.06 15.18
Per 100 million vehicle miles traveled 21.78 1.50 1.26
2006
Per 100,000 registered vehicles 71.94 13.01 12.95
Per 100 million vehicle miles traveled 38.79 1.10 1.10
Percent Change, 1996-2006
Per 100,000 registered vehicles 28.9% -28.0% -14.7%
Per 100 million vehicle miles traveled 78.1 -26.7 -12.7
Source: U.S. Department of Transportation, National Highway Traffic Safety Administration.
Notice the % of change 1996-2006 category:
Fatalities/100k vehicles increased by nearly 30% for motorcycles and dropped nearly 30% for autos!
Fatalities per 100M vehicle miles traveled increased 78% for motorcycles and decreased 26% for autos!
Not only is it risky to ride a bike but it's getting way riskier as time goes by!
A couple more key statements from the site:
Motorcycles are by their nature far less crashworthy than closed vehicles. They are also less visible to other drivers and pedestrians and less stable than four-wheel vehicles. Operating a motorcycle requires a different combination of physical and mental skills than those used in driving four-wheel vehicles. Motorcyclists and their passengers are more vulnerable to the hazards of weather and road conditions than drivers in closed vehicles.
Motorcyclists were 35 times more likely than passenger car occupants to die in a crash in 2006, per vehicle mile traveled, and eight times more likely to be injured,according to NHTSA.
The fatality rate for motorcyclists in 2006 was 5.5 times the fatality rate for passenger car occupants per registered vehicle, according to the latest data from NHTSA.
http://www.iii.org/media/hottopics/insurance/motorcycle/
I know most riders realize riding a bike involves risk, and of course it's up to each individual to do his own personal risk assessment.
When considering that risk please realize that the bike rider is taking on MUCH more risk than the car driver.
Btw,years ago I was involved in a bike/truck (I was a passenger in the truck) accident.
Bike driven by male with female passenger crossed the double yellow line and struck the truck I was riding in head-on. Estimated combined impact speed 90mph.
(Truck)45mph + (bike)45mph=90mph impact speed.
Both bike riders died at the hospital. The occupants of the truck (3) suffered zero injuries. (If you don't count the mental anguish of witnessing the carnage wrought on those two young people that day.)
Needless to say I'm somewhat biased regarding the risk of bike riding after seeing what it can produce.
Be considerate of the high risk when deciding whether or not you choose to ride..if not for yourself then for someone that loves you and doesn't want to lose you.
Regards,
Sun
WHAT you're missing though, is that we know the risks we're taking when we ride. we also know it's not the fault of the biker in most cases.
it's usually a car driver that ""didn't see the bike"", or they just don't think about the limitations we have on bikes.
it was not the bikers fault in the post that started this thread. i truely hope they hang the car driver out to dry.....
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Pesonally, I've broken my leg 2x on a motorcylce. That's enough for me. By the way both times were my fault.
The only reason I haven't been hurt worse is because of good drivers. Thank Goodness.
However, I hold no grudge against those who like the open road and bugs in their teeth. There's a lot of freedom in that.
hate bugs in my teeth...thats' why i wear a full face helmet :D
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i kind of think this part may be aimed at one of my comments. when i stated that there should be re-teting every 2 years, think about it before you say it won't work. right this second, if an instructor got into your car with you, and you drove as you normally do, would you pass? be honest. 99% would not. because they/we all know that once we get our lisence, we keep it unles we accumulate toooo many points. we let bad habits form. we get complacent. we decide that ""it"" can never happen to us.
now imagine that you KNOW that if you fail that test in a year, that you lose your lisence till you manage to pass it. now you're gonna be more ""on the ball"" about not letting bad habits develop. you're gonna pay much much more attention to what's going on around ya. just look at most private pilots. we don't let bad habits develop. i think the worst one i'vd gotten, is that i fly my pattern a little sloppy. my CFI generally corrects this with the engine failure routine when he's with me.
i know this wouldn't stop the drunk drivers, it wouldn't stop the guy tht just shot a needle full of some watermelon into his arm, or the gal that just snorted god knows how much watermelon up her nose........but it WILL stop the stupid drivers. it will stop the complacent ones, the guys shaving or reading their newspaper while they shave at 75mph. it will stop the girl doing her mascare or eyeliner in stop and go traffic. it will stop the assssholes that think the amber light means to floor it so they don't have to stop.
it's not the end all/cure all, but i think it wold greatly help.
apologies for the long post
<<S>>
What's with this WE crap? You need to speak for yourself. What you have described above tells me YOU are the problem. To lump everyone else in with your complacency is wrong. You are rationalizing that everyone is complacent so you should be foregiven, but a refresher course every two years will fix the problem. BS. YOU need to realize that everytime YOU get behind the wheel YOU are operating a 3000 pound bullet.
In the future try not to speak for me.
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What's with this WE crap? You need to speak for yourself. What you have described above tells me YOU are the problem. To lump everyone else in with your complacency is wrong. You are rationalizing that everyone is complacent so you should be foregiven, but a refresher course every two years will fix the problem. BS. YOU need to realize that everytime YOU get behind the wheel YOU are operating a 3000 pound bullet.
In the future try not to speak for me.
uujmmmmm......bonehead? i DO realize i'm operatinmg a 3000 pound bullet. i ride. i've been driving for 20 some odd years. with the exception fo 1 when i was oung and stupid, all accidents ive had were the other persons fault. including the headon that totaled my 12 second mustang. i almost managed to avoid that one, as i have avoided so many before. i, unlike the masses, know EXACTLY what my car, or my truck can do in any given weather, or traffic condition. i know how far i can push them, and where they'll let me down, or break loose and give me trouble.
when i say "we" i meant drivers in general. next time i'll make sure to say "you", ok? :O
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you are taking a chance when you ride.
It is fun to ride.. it is a rush you can't get hiding under the bed all day.
You take your chances.
A helmet takes about 50% of the fun away from riding and may save your life once in a million times.
helmets..even the best.. affect your hearing and your vision to some extent.. that is not important in a race.. more so on the street.
It should be no ones business if you take such a risk unless you are endangering them.. helmets may cause you to not be as good a rider but.. only a fraction most likely Who knows how much reduced vision and hearing had to do with the wreck in question or.. the fact that most people won't look around as much while wearing a helmet?
I really don't care if anyone disaproves of my risk taking. I hate every busybody on the planet who would save me from myself.
lazs
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we also know it's not the fault of the biker in most cases.
it's usually a car driver that ""didn't see the bike"", or they just don't think about the limitations we have on bikes.
I drive about 50,000 miles a year +/-.
I've seen FAR more bikers doing stupid things than drivers.
This is interesting when you consider the area I drive only sees bikers half the year (New England winters & springs aren't always that great for them).
If the biker's doing something stupid and unexpected you can't really blame the car driver for not seeing him or not knowing the limitations. Sounds to me more like the biker doesn't realize the limitations and isn't doing what he has to do to stay safe.
When I'm in a car, and I'm around cargo trucks, I'm on full alert. I realize they can't see me in many places, and that if I am going to pass them (legally), I'm going to be taking chances and need to be prepared to take serious evasive manuevering (Floor it, horn, drift to side and ride the raver saver). I also know I have to take the situation into account (Do I have enough room between me and the car in front of me in my lane to floor it if I have to, or am I going to get stuck and have to brake/pray for the horn?), and other factors such as road conditions.
I don't blame truckers for not being able to see me. I don't see why bikers blame cars for not being able to see them. It's a fact of the road we all need to take into account if we want to get to our destination safely.
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In the accident that started this thread, it seems pretty clear that the car driver is completely legally at fault. Possibly intoxicated (could just be shock, but sure sounds like intoxicated - I'll wait for the lab results), and certainly ran a red light.
On the other hand, the fact that out of the FOUR bikers, not ONE noticed her, is some pretty inexcusably crappy SA. And it cost them.
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And Moot, if you think all drivers in the US are sluggish... Try driving around in Boston. You'll think they're wild banshees from hell :)
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I drive about 50,000 miles a year +/-.
I've seen FAR more bikers doing stupid things than drivers.
If the biker's doing something stupid and unexpected you can't really blame the car driver for not seeing him or not knowing the limitations. Sounds to me more like the biker doesn't realize the limitations and isn't doing what he has to do to stay safe.
I don't see why bikers blame cars for not being able to see them. It's a fact of the road we all need to take into account if we want to get to our destination safely.
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In the accident that started this thread, it seems pretty clear that the car driver is completely legally at fault. Possibly intoxicated (could just be shock, but sure sounds like intoxicated - I'll wait for the lab results), and certainly ran a red light.
On the other hand, the fact that out of the FOUR bikers, not ONE noticed her, is some pretty inexcusably crappy SA. And it cost them.
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And Moot, if you think all drivers in the US are sluggish... Try driving around in Boston. You'll think they're wild banshees from hell :)
i think bikers do that....and me too.....because most car drivers don't "expect" to see anything other than another car, thus they don't see us. people in general only see what they want to see. if they're not activly looking ofr a bike in their mirror, then they'll most likely not see it.
i do see some bikers do stupid things. it seems that mostly the crotch rocket riders are guilty of this. most cruiser riders, ride nromally although there are exceptions to both.
as for more bikers doing stupid things? do you ever see a biker doing makeup at 80? or reading a paper? or talking on a cell phone? now i know you're thinking about them weaving in traffic.....but cars do this too...much more...i see it on 295 all the time. i never see a biker tailgating anything, although i quite often see cars tailgating everything...including bikers(when i get a guy too close to me, i just slow down till he goes by me........)
i do however agree with you that one of them should've noticed that car speding towards the intersection. i know i would have. most of my friends would have. that does not however alleviate the blame from her. especially if the light truely was red on her side for a full 3 seconds....that's like an eternity for something like that.
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Vudak, what I said was definitely pigeon holing, but on the whole (no pun) it's pretty accurate. One or a few towns will be exceptions, that's normal :) Mav says he's been to Canada and Mexico, but it's not surprising they're similar. If he'd spent at least a few years in Europe and elsewhere I think he'd say something else. I learned to drive in Paris rush hour, on a stick shift - I was on that Champ Elysees round-about in the first 15min.
The four bikers in the OP might as well have gotten on their bikes blind folded, yep...
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i do however agree with you that one of them should've noticed that car speding towards the intersection. i know i would have. most of my friends would have. that does not however alleviate the blame from her. especially if the light truely was red on her side for a full 3 seconds....that's like an eternity for something like that.
I just want to make clear I'm not trying to alleviate any of the blame for the driver... She's definately at fault.
I also agree with you that it's normally the crotch rockets that are doing the dumb things I observe.
What I'm not agreeing with is that talking on a cellphone while driving and doing a wheelie on a highway between two cars is in the same level of stupidity :D
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What I'm not agreeing with is that talking on a cellphone while driving and doing a wheelie on a highway between two cars is in the same level of stupidity :D
POINT taken :rofl :aok
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A helmet takes about 50% of the fun away from riding and may save your life once in a million times.
I was driving behind a guy who got his front wheel caught on an improvised shoulder and drove his motor bike up off the road through a steel support cable and then into a large steel pole as he was going about 40 miles an hour. He was going forward one moment and as he smashed into the pole he was thrown instantly to the right about twenty feet where he landed. He hit that pole straight on. He was wearing a full head helmet. The visor had been broken completely off by the impact and the body of the helmit was split down the center exposing the white inner shell of the helmet. The guy was knocked out cold and groaning from the gut but appeared to be alive and in one piece. His head was protected from what would most likely have been a skull splattering life ending event. I read about the collision the following day and the piece explained he was expected to recover.
Im guessing this was a one in a million save.
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I was driving behind a guy who got his front wheel caught on an improvised shoulder and drove his motor bike up off the road through a steel support cable and then into a large steel pole as he was going about 40 miles an hour. He was going forward one moment and as he smashed into the pole he was thrown instantly to the right about twenty feet where he landed. He hit that pole straight on. He was wearing a full head helmet. The visor had been broken completely off by the impact and the body of the helmit was split down the center exposing the white inner shell of the helmet. The guy was knocked out cold and groaning from the gut but appeared to be alive and in one piece. His head was protected from what would most likely have been a skull splattering life ending event. I read about the collision the following day and the piece explained he was expected to recover.
Im guessing this was a one in a million save.
helmets are just like any other safety device. they can save you, and sometimes they may not.
i also agree with those that want them to be the choice of the rider. my personal choice is to wear mine. but it should be MY choice, not some governing body's choice for me.
if you choose not to wear your helmet then who the hell am i to tell you otherwise?
anyway..... i believe in em, and wear em. besides......it keeps the bugs outta my teeth!! :D
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if you choose not to wear your helmet then who the hell am i to tell you otherwise?
The big complaint in my state was with the high number of catostrophic brain injuries experienced by crashed motorcyclists and the fact that the taxpayers were paying out tens of millions $$$ for the long term care of brain injured motorcyclists. Helmets are required in my state, have been for 20 years or so.
I dont like the mandating of this sort of thing. I think the state should have provided an exemption where people can waive the helmet requirement if they agree to give up state funded long term care as a result of permamnent brain injury due to motorcycle accident. Donate those organs instead.
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The big complaint in my state was with the high number of catostrophic brain injuries experienced by crashed motorcyclists and the fact that the taxpayers were paying out tens of millions $$$ for the long term care of brain injured motorcyclists. Helmets are required in my state, have been for 20 years or so.
I dont like the mandating of this sort of thing. I think the state should have provided an exemption where people can waive the helmet requirement if they agree to give up state funded long term care as a result of permamnent brain injury due to motorcycle accident. Donate those organs instead.
Or you can solve that problem all together by removing a socialist health care system. If the state won't pay for it at all, who cares if they wear a helmet or not?
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beside the bugs, i just once driven a Motorcycle without a helmet,
after 10minutes i was done, tears and my skin felt like it was shaved with
a knife. I'm talking about speeds from 120-250km/h (old Kawasaki Ninja)
so a helmet was more then a must for me, at least the way i loved to ride Motorcycles,
...long time ago btw.
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yeager... the same excuse was used here to stir up the hysterical busy body women and womenly men to get em to give up their freedom.. the legions of brain dead bikers in a comma... lying in state for decades... sucking up health care tax money...
When asked to give the numbers and examples... oddly.. no one such example could be found of a brain dead biker being kept alive on public funds. Lots of brain dead comatose drowning victims and people who had suffered a fall.. even a couple of car accident victims but.. no bikers.
It was all a huge lie... In any case.. you need insurance to ride.. you don't need it to walk around or to swim.
Oh.. and I am not an organ donor in any case.
lazs
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Oh.. and I am not an organ donor in any case.
lazs
What is your rationale on why you choose not to be an organ donor?
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well.. I see no reason to donate my old worn out organs to anyone and..
no matter what... it just seems like a risky thing to do.
human nature being what it is.
lazs
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I wonder if the driver of the car was on a cellphone.....
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What is your rationale on why you choose not to be an organ donor?
you are in the hospital, you are on the edge, could go either way, some surgeon needs a $50,000 body part, they pull your plug and "harvest your parts". It's nothing personal, it's just business.
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......yet another reason I don't ride motorcycles anymore....
This morning I was rear-ended at a redlight. No damage to my car....smashed the heck out of his bumper. I had been stopped for about 90 seconds....the person who hit me was reading a flight manual because he was cramming for his written pilots exam. No drivers license....no ID except his passport. My neck is a little stiff...I'm sure I'll be sore in the morning. Had I been on a motorcycle I'd have been hurt much worse
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......yet another reason I don't ride motorcycles anymore....
My neck is a little stiff...I'm sure I'll be sore in the morning.
you need to see a doctor and a lawyer, not necessarily in that order.
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Im not a doctor but Im running pit of patients :aok
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......yet another reason I don't ride motorcycles anymore....
This morning I was rear-ended at a redlight. No damage to my car....smashed the heck out of his bumper. I had been stopped for about 90 seconds....the person who hit me was reading a flight manual because he was cramming for his written pilots exam. No drivers license....no ID except his passport. My neck is a little stiff...I'm sure I'll be sore in the morning. Had I been on a motorcycle I'd have been hurt much worse
HAD YOU BEEN ON A MOTORCYCLE, most lilely have seen him long before he got to hit ya, and moved.
now..cramming for his privates and no DL? if his DL is/was revoked, he won't get a pilots lisence. if he had a chance, he just blew it.
glad to hear that you're ok though/.
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......yet another reason I don't ride motorcycles anymore....
....the person who hit me was reading a flight manual because he was cramming for his written pilots exam. No drivers license....no ID except his passport.
OK, you're scaring me now. Was his name Mohammed and was he a Saudi? :eek:
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OK, you're scaring me now. Was his name Mohammed and was he a Saudi? :eek:
You racist!
His name was Muhammed. The U was different.
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OK, you're scaring me now. Was his name Mohammed and was he a Saudi? :eek:
Actually....his name was Nikhil.
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Why would any sane person ride a motorcycle?
Sorry you had to witness tht but big <S> for actually doing something. It's amazing how many people will just stand around dumbfounded when a accident happens and do nothing to help.
Man I have to agree with you.. I love motorcycles and grew up riding dirt bikes and ATV's. Hell I even live in Daytona Beach home of Bike Week but you won't ever catch me on a bike anymore. I totally trust myself to be aware of what's going on, but you just can't control everything and riding a bike you put your life in the hands of others. Every year here in Daytona several bikers die during Bike Week and then during Biketoberfest.
Granted driving a car is also at risk but at least you have some protection. Another thing is I'm very careful who I will ride in a car with, meaning who the driver is. I will very rarely ever ride in someone else's car, I always drive myself and wont ride with anyone unless I totally trust them. I guess my days of racing made me very cautious.
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In the previous 5 pages of posts I noticed a few opinions that (to me) indicated a belief that a death or injury could have occurred just as easily had this involved 2 automobiles.
Of course each individual accident's factors will vary, but overall the figures show a fairly predictive pattern when comparing motorcycle fatalities verses automobile fatalities.
Yea stats show it all IMO...
I've witnessed a few wrecks in my time.. One was almost the same thing as this motorcycle crash..
I was sitting at a red light at a busy intersection, and a ford SUV with a bunch of teen girls (teen driver likely 16 to 17) are in the turn lane trying to turn across the traffic. There was a Big box van on the other side of the intersection tryi8ng to turn the other way. So the teens in the SUV couldn't see the traffic coming they intended to cross.
Whats the dumb girl do? Pulls out and tries to cross and gets T-Boned by a on coming car. I jumped out of my truck and went to help them almost instantly and luckily none of them were hurt. The girls in the SUV were just shaken up and the girl in the other car had a bloody nose from the air bag.
Speed limit was 45 mph on the street so it was a fairly high speed impact and they all walked away unharmed.
Another one that amazed me was a big 70's or 80's Ford LTD was speeding down a side street next to my house and didn't stop at a stop sign. The car ran into (T boned) a smaller front wheel drive import and literally ripped the whole front end off the import car (engine and all) and the big Ford LTD did about 4 barrel rolls down the street. was a crazy thing to witness.
Amazing enough the people in the compact car were unharmed (luckily the bigger car hit them on the front half). There were also 5 people in the LTD and none of them had their seat belt on but again amazingly enough none were seriously harmed. I'm betting they were doing about 50mph when they broadsided the smaller car.
So yea as others say lots of people die in car wrecks, but many walk away with almost no injuries. Yet almost no one in a motorcycle crash walks away with no injuries. Obviously people aren't gonna stop riding motorcycles, but IMO they are pretty crazy to ride them these days, with so much traffic out there.
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I've walked away from a few motorcycle accidents. A couple of them if I'd been in a car I'd be dead. :O
I guess it's just where your perspective is.
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I've walked away from a few motorcycle accidents. A couple of them if I'd been in a car I'd be dead. :O
I guess it's just where your perspective is.
Well if you have been in enough accidents that you can say "a couple of them" and not mean all of them, then I'd have to say you are doing something wrong and likely pushing your luck.
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Well the ones on the tracks are par for the course. If you don't come off every now and then you're not trying hard enough :D
The others well, I was cut off one night by a drunk driver and forced onto the verge, which unfortunately was soft mud so I lost the front end. I was knocked out that time for a few hours, unfortunately the guy didn't stop and I couldn't be seen in the culvert I stopped in. Lucky for me I didn't end up in a puddle.
The couple I could have died if it wasn't for the fact I was on a bike were:
I was hit from the front by a truck whose brakes had failed on a hill, it rolled back into me. I wasn't in a position to move in time so I stepped smartly off the bike and moved out of the way. After it rolled over my bike it went through the wall a few meters behind me. According to the Police, if I was in a car it may well have been in my lap. :O
The other one was where I hit a large patch of gravel on a hilly winding road (yeah I might have been going a tad quick, but then I probably would have been pushing it just as hard in the car... I love winding roads::D ) The bike went over the edge, I got a few bruises and a big timeout fixing the bike. I'm fairly sure that due to the size of the gravel patch (left over from a recent rock slide) it would have taken a car off the edge too.
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I've heard it from many a motorcyclist as to the types of motorcycle riders:
"those that have bailed, and those that are going to bail."
I'm still saving up a couple grand to get a used bike to start learning.
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Yea stats show it all IMO...
I've witnessed a few wrecks in my time.. One was almost the same thing as this motorcycle crash..
I was sitting at a red light at a busy intersection, and a ford SUV with a bunch of teen girls (teen driver likely 16 to 17) are in the turn lane trying to turn across the traffic. There was a Big box van on the other side of the intersection tryi8ng to turn the other way. So the teens in the SUV couldn't see the traffic coming they intended to cross.
Whats the dumb girl do? Pulls out and tries to cross and gets T-Boned by a on coming car. I jumped out of my truck and went to help them almost instantly and luckily none of them were hurt. The girls in the SUV were just shaken up and the girl in the other car had a bloody nose from the air bag.
Speed limit was 45 mph on the street so it was a fairly high speed impact and they all walked away unharmed.
Another one that amazed me was a big 70's or 80's Ford LTD was speeding down a side street next to my house and didn't stop at a stop sign. The car ran into (T boned) a smaller front wheel drive import and literally ripped the whole front end off the import car (engine and all) and the big Ford LTD did about 4 barrel rolls down the street. was a crazy thing to witness.
Amazing enough the people in the compact car were unharmed (luckily the bigger car hit them on the front half). There were also 5 people in the LTD and none of them had their seat belt on but again amazingly enough none were seriously harmed. I'm betting they were doing about 50mph when they broadsided the smaller car.
So yea as others say lots of people die in car wrecks, but many walk away with almost no injuries. Yet almost no one in a motorcycle crash walks away with no injuries. Obviously people aren't gonna stop riding motorcycles, but IMO they are pretty crazy to ride them these days, with so much traffic out there.
yea, and people think those of us that fly are pretty crazy too. but guess what? we're NOT.
the accidents on bikes are more often than not the AUTOMOBILE drivers fault. like you mentioned in the beginnning of this post...teen girls. they have no clue what the vehicle they're driving is capable of, thanks in part to poor trianing, from the schools, and their parents.
in general, bikers are a pretty safe crowd, and pretty much a LOT more aware of what's going on around us in traffic than cage drivers. there are exceptions though. we also bring the added awareness into our cars when we drive them.
we know the risks we're taking, and no, none of you thatg think we shouldn't ride are gonna change our minds.......ooo......and i'd say that that old ltd accidetn stor is a bit of an excaggeration. no seatbelts and 5 rolls?? with 5 people in it, someone would definitly have been ejected. someone would definitly have gone through the windshield on impact too, as 70's cars weren't built to absorb impact like they are today.
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Strange that a Ford product is mentioned. Around 1980 had to pick up the 2 pieces (split just behind the front seats) of a Ford (LTD iirc) one night that had been t-boned by another car (speed limit was 40mph) at a T intersection. Two of two dead in the Ford.
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the accidents on bikes are more often than not the AUTOMOBILE drivers fault. like you mentioned in the beginnning of this post...teen girls. they have no clue what the vehicle they're driving is capable of, thanks in part to poor trianing, from the schools, and their parents.
That is the exact point I'm making.. You can be the most careful person on a bike and still get killed because of some other moron. I'm not telling you not to ride a bike I'm just telling you, that you are crazy to ride a bike these days, with so much traffic.
If you drive a car yes there is a general amount of risk involved, but the risk is much less. In most cases it really takes a pretty big or a freak crash to kill someone in a car, not just a every day fender bender. On a bike with out a helmet it doesn't take much to seriously injure or kill the rider.
The specific fact is, when you are riding a bike, you are putting your life in the hands of others. In a car you also put your life in the hands of others especially if someone else is driving, however you have a better level of protection. It would be like the difference in going to war in Iraq with body armor or with out it. Sure both are putting you in a dangerous environment, but one allows for a little bit of extra protection that may save your life.
The worst part is if you ever do get in a bad wreck on a bike, you might not die.. A guy I used to work with, drove one of those late model subaru 4 wheel drive station wagons.. (I'm not sure what the model was) He carried a big fiberglass ladder on the roof (28ft) for the job that we did.
On his way to work one morning, there was a dog in the road on US1 and traffic stopped, he was at a dead stop and some guy on a motorcycle ran into the back of his car. The guy wasn't wearing a helmet and he hit the ladder with his head. His forehead actually hit the ladder's metal feet not sure what they are called but the part the ladder stands on when it's upright.
It put a hole in the dudes head and there was blood, parts of skull and brains on his car when he made it into work.. Was pretty sick stuff but the worst part is the rider actually lived but was severely brain damaged. One moment of not being on top of his game ruined the rest of that guy's life because he was on a bike and wasn't paying attention at the one min that really mattered. Sure he could have been injured in a car and maybe even hurt someone else, but I bet it wouldn't have been as severe.
I'm a risk taker myself, granted not as much as I used to be.. but most people that are risk takers tend to like to be in control of their risk. Jumping out of a airplane maybe be risky, but you won't find many people whom do it, that don't pack their own chutes and go out of their way to be as safe as possible while doing it. Pilots typically go out of their way to check their aircraft and have spent countless hours training to be able to do everything they can to be in control.
The deal is most risk takers go out of their way to make them selves as safe as possible and do everything they can to have control of their own lives unless they are reckless risk takers. Most people who ride motorcycles have a false sense of security in the fact they think they are taking their life in their own hands. The deal is, they aren't. Their life is in the hands of every driver they come in contact with while riding.
Again, you are in the same position while driving a car but you have much more protection.. So would you rather go to war in Iraq with body armor or with out it? Would you just consider you self a risk taker going to war with out protection or would you consider your self dumb for not using all the protection you could get?
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There is a silver lining to increasing gas prices. Fewer cars make the streets safer for bikers. More people are riding motorcycles and scooters now also which I'm hoping will make them more motorcycle aware too.
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That is the exact point I'm making.. You can be the most careful person on a bike and still get killed because of some other moron. I'm not telling you not to ride a bike I'm just telling you, that you are crazy to ride a bike these days, with so much traffic.
If you drive a car yes there is a general amount of risk involved, but the risk is much less. In most cases it really takes a pretty big or a freak crash to kill someone in a car, not just a every day fender bender. On a bike with out a helmet it doesn't take much to seriously injure or kill the rider.
The specific fact is, when you are riding a bike, you are putting your life in the hands of others. In a car you also put your life in the hands of others especially if someone else is driving, however you have a better level of protection. It would be like the difference in going to war in Iraq with body armor or with out it. Sure both are putting you in a dangerous environment, but one allows for a little bit of extra protection that may save your life.
The worst part is if you ever do get in a bad wreck on a bike, you might not die.. A guy I used to work with, drove one of those late model subaru 4 wheel drive station wagons.. (I'm not sure what the model was) He carried a big fiberglass ladder on the roof (28ft) for the job that we did.
On his way to work one morning, there was a dog in the road on US1 and traffic stopped, he was at a dead stop and some guy on a motorcycle ran into the back of his car. The guy wasn't wearing a helmet and he hit the ladder with his head. His forehead actually hit the ladder's metal feet not sure what they are called but the part the ladder stands on when it's upright.
It put a hole in the dudes head and there was blood, parts of skull and brains on his car when he made it into work.. Was pretty sick stuff but the worst part is the rider actually lived but was severely brain damaged. One moment of not being on top of his game ruined the rest of that guy's life because he was on a bike and wasn't paying attention at the one min that really mattered. Sure he could have been injured in a car and maybe even hurt someone else, but I bet it wouldn't have been as severe.
I'm a risk taker myself, granted not as much as I used to be.. but most people that are risk takers tend to like to be in control of their risk. Jumping out of a airplane maybe be risky, but you won't find many people whom do it, that don't pack their own chutes and go out of their way to be as safe as possible while doing it. Pilots typically go out of their way to check their aircraft and have spent countless hours training to be able to do everything they can to be in control.
The deal is most risk takers go out of their way to make them selves as safe as possible and do everything they can to have control of their own lives unless they are reckless risk takers. Most people who ride motorcycles have a false sense of security in the fact they think they are taking their life in their own hands. The deal is, they aren't. Their life is in the hands of every driver they come in contact with while riding.
Again, you are in the same position while driving a car but you have much more protection.. So would you rather go to war in Iraq with body armor or with out it? Would you just consider you self a risk taker going to war with out protection or would you consider your self dumb for not using all the protection you could get?
STILL NOT CRAZY TO RIDE. i've dodged more people in cars while on my bike than i ever could have in my car. the lady that hit my mustang head on......had i been on my bike i know for fact that i could've dodged her. as good as my stang handled(and she handled like a slot car or rails) i couldn't.
crazy is playing frisbee in the freeway. jumping out of an airplane. flying your airplane at wavetop height alng the deleware. trusting what politicians say. golfing in a thunderstorm. building a house below sea level. building a house on stilts. running naked down your street.
crazy is NOT riding a motorcycle. it improves our skill in cars(those of us that ride that is). it gives those that dont wear helmets free snacks in the form of bugs and insects :D. it saves gas(always has, but much more important now).
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Actually, I think a huge problem is traffic light systems that have near no yellow light time, and immediately turn the counter moving traffic light green. I've seen it in some places. It's very irresponsible to configure a traffic light system that way. I'm more than happy to sit waiting at a fully red light intersection for 5+ seconds to add a little extra safety.
That said. The speeder should be changed with manslaughter. Let a jury sort it out. ...but the bikers should have looked both ways, and known to never trust others on the road. Trusting a light and others was a fatal mistake. Such a tragedy, that could have been avoided through diligence, even with a reckless driver at fault. Sad to hear such a story. :(
On the riding bikes note...
I know alot of folks who drive bikes. They are smart men & women, and I hope this means they are cautious. I wouldn't want to do it, but it is their passion. There is actually a rule in my family (cousins, uncles, everyone). You can ride a bike, but never while you are raising children. So while some folks I know don't follow this, I really wish they would take an 18 year break, if you catch my drift.
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oops Isn't there a way to delete posts anymore. I didn't mean to double post.
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Actually, I think a huge problem is traffic light systems that have near no yellow light time, and immediately turn the counter moving traffic light green. I've seen it in some places. It's very irresponsible to configure a traffic light system that way. I'm more than happy to sit waiting at a fully red light intersection for 5+ seconds to add a little extra safety.
That said. The speeder should be changed with manslaughter. Let a jury sort it out. ...but the bikers should have looked both ways, and known to never trust others on the road. Trusting a light and others was a fatal mistake. Such a tragedy, that could have been avoided through diligence, even with a reckless driver at fault. Sad to hear such a story. :(
On the riding bikes note...
I know alot of folks who drive bikes. They are smart men & women, and I hope this means they are cautious. I wouldn't want to do it, but it is their passion. There is actually a rule in my family (cousins, uncles, everyone). You can ride a bike, but never while you are raising children. So while some folks I know don't follow this, I really wish they would take an 18 year break, if you catch my drift.
i don't know about other places, but here in the PRNJ, most amber lights are 3 to 4 seconds long. thet's more than enough time to stop. even in philly, they're 2 to 3 seconds.
it's not the traffic light system, although it does appear as such, as you noted. more of the problem, is lack of respect for what is being driven. younger people aren't trained up to snuff, like us old guys n gals were. no one explains to them exactly how deadly the weapon that they're driving is. they don't have a clue how much it weighs, or how much stored energy it has when thye're driving, even at moderate speeds.
even amongst us older folk, there's a problem oc complacency.....you know, the ""i've been driving for XX years, and that can never happen to me"" kinda guys.
do you know how long it takes you to stop from 60mph in your car? timewise, and distancewise?
do you realize that at only 60mph you travel the length of a football field every 3 seconds?
cars on the road aren't the problem for us riders. the problem is poorly trained drivers.
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There is a silver lining to increasing gas prices. Fewer cars make the streets safer for bikers. More people are riding motorcycles and scooters now also which I'm hoping will make them more motorcycle aware too.
This is happening in Aus too and it will improve things - a number of studies have shown that a driver is much more likely to be aware of motorcyclists if they ride themselves or have a close friend or family member who rides.
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This is happening in Aus too and it will improve things - a number of studies have shown that a driver is much more likely to be aware of motorcyclists if they ride themselves or have a close friend or family member who rides.
exactly. people see what they want to see.....or expect to see.