Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Boxboy on August 14, 2008, 09:11:42 AM
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It's simple really if I get killed you are an HO tard twit, if you get killed I have excuted a perfect frontal aspect shot :D
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It's simple really if I get killed you are an HO tard twit, if you get killed I have excuted a perfect frontal aspect shot :D
And if someone even mentions 'HO' they're supposed to get their arse to the training arena. :lol
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Head Ons are a part of the game.... The can easily be avoided. If you get killed in an HO situation, it's your own fault for not evading the situation.
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Takes 2 to HO.
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Takes 2 to HO.
Not really.. the biggest HO twits are almost always the tards that fly planes like Zeek's, Niki's & Hurricane 2's. Typically any fight involving those aircraft ends up with them trying to force HO shots after HO shot on every merge. You can only avoid so many when fighting those kinds of dweeb planes, simply because they can out turn most other planes. The Niki doesn't turn as good as the other two, but it makes up for it with 4 20mms the tards can spray and pray with.
Add to that, the typical skill set of the dweebs that fly them and it it's almost a given anytime you see one they will try to HO. In most cases they they never bother to learn any real ACM because the limp wrist aircraft they fly allows them to out turn anything regardless to how bad they actually suck.
Fighting most other types of planes, then yea it's more likely to take "two" to HO.
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Head Ons are a part of the game.... The can easily be avoided. If you get killed in an HO situation, it's your own fault for not evading the situation.
Maybe. There's a lot of situations that make the HO unavoidable; low E, multiple cons, timing on reverses, etc. It's not always your own fault for getting shot in the face.
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I will HO every plane I get the chance to HO, with the exception of P-38's. I have tried to take the high-ground on this since I started, and wait until I see the other plane shoot first but no more. I don't get upset and accept it as a viable shot in the game that I need to utilize at this point.
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Not really.. the biggest HO twits are almost always the tards that fly planes like Zeek's, Niki's & Hurricane 2's.
Zeeks....... Come on... the Zeke is a paper airplane with only 2 cannon that will die or catch on fire on almost every merge.
The worst Ho ers are the alt junkies who can't turn to get a six shot they take a shot from what angle they are dealt.
I just get tired of people hoing and up my b25h.
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I suck at HOing so bad that I lost one vs a zeke in my chog....... :uhoh
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Sounds to me like someone needs to work on their merges. :cry
I don't get HO'd, because I try to avoid the circumstances that produce one (I don't fly straight into an incoming con).
I do get shot by frontal deflection shots--especially in multi-con furballs, or if I do something stupid.
When that happens, I try to learn from my mistake and up another plane instead of coming to the BBS and whining about it.
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Zeeks....... Come on... the Zeke is a paper airplane with only 2 cannon that will die or catch on fire on almost every merge.
The worst Ho ers are the alt junkies who can't turn to get a six shot they take a shot from what angle they are dealt.
I just get tired of people hoing and up my b25h.
Doesn't mean they don't try to HO.. when you are low on the deck in turn fights it's almost always the TnB planes doing most of the HOing, simply because they can turn in faster to try and force that kind of merge. Personally I don't care about HOtwits because 9 times out of 10 they are easy kills. The cons that don't HO on merges are the one's I worry about more, because I figure they likely have a clue as to whats going on.
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Takes 2 to HO.
1 to HO, 2 to merge. Learn it, live it, love it, noob.
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Agreed.... Not only that, but most of those "ho-twits" are sacrificing E as well as the potential of getting one getting on their opponent's six in just 1 or 2 more turns or merges(due to the fact their flying a "dweeb" ride").. That's why on a merge, I always come in from a offset angle or give myself enough space to get underneath them.. Most of the time, they blew most of their E to get that frontal angle, and when they find I'm not where they thought I would be.... Well, you know the rest..
Doesn't mean they don't try to HO.. when you are low on the deck in turn fights it's almost always the TnB planes doing most of the HOing, simply because they can turn in faster to try and force that kind of merge. Personally I don't care about HOtwits because 9 times out of 10 they are easy kills. The cons that don't HO on merges are the one's I worry about more, because I figure they likely have a clue as to whats going on.
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Not really.. the biggest HO twits are almost always the tards that fly planes like Zeek's, Niki's & Hurricane 2's. Typically any fight involving those aircraft ends up with them trying to force HO shots after HO shot on every merge. You can only avoid so many when fighting those kinds of dweeb planes, simply because they can out turn most other planes. The Niki doesn't turn as good as the other two, but it makes up for it with 4 20mms the tards can spray and pray with.
Add to that, the typical skill set of the dweebs that fly them and it it's almost a given anytime you see one they will try to HO. In most cases they they never bother to learn any real ACM because the limp wrist aircraft they fly allows them to out turn anything regardless to how bad they actually suck.
Fighting most other types of planes, then yea it's more likely to take "two" to HO.
:huh
first off any one who HOs in a zero is a idiot, thats the worst plane for HOs.
second, i hope you dont think all Hurri drivers HO, cuz this is one Hurri driver that tries very hard not to HO, i have had 5 and more attacking me at once and they are all Hoing, yet i still try to avoid them, i cant say that i never Ho, i will Ho a zero every time. :t
what i think is funny, is when people believe that because you fly a particular plane you are gonna fly a certain way, run in a LA, Ho in a hurri, ect ect
when are you that think like that, gonna realize every one is different? :noid
just know, that no matter what plane i am flying i will fight, i love the TnB, so i fly those planes that excel at that, and if i am in a LA 5 or 7, i will not run until i am bingo, for the LA is one of, if not the best TnBer in game. :salute
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1 to HO, 2 to merge. Learn it, live it, love it, noob.
:aok :aok :aok :noid :noid
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(http://imagecache2.allposters.com/images/pic/ATA/24784DG~I-Da-Ho-Posters.jpg)
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Takes 2 to HO.
No it doesn't. It takes two to merge, and although I usually manage to evade the HO, if the other guy happens to be a good shot he still may well get some hits on ya.
Speaking of which, a guy who I won't name HOed me yesterday on a merge and then denied it to my face on 200, saying that what he'd done didn't constitute a HO. Let's see, we started 5k out from each other, he was probably 300-500 feet higher alt than me, so I was climbing slightly toward him. In the last 1000 yards he climbed slightly then went nose down and shot at me as I passed just under him on the merge, from straight out in front of and just above me. Hit my radiator and got some other pings, but I did manage to turn around and kill him. Still, it was a blatant HO and he denied it repeatedly. I thought it was a rather low-class move.
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:rofl
Time for meds, again?
Please step away from the potato porn.
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No it doesn't. It takes two to merge, and although I usually manage to evade the HO, if the other guy happens to be a good shot he still may well get some hits on ya.
Speaking of which, a guy who I won't name HOed me yesterday on a merge and then denied it to my face on 200, saying that what he'd done didn't constitute a HO. Let's see, we started 5k out from each other, he was probably 300-500 feet higher alt than me, so I was climbing slightly toward him. In the last 1000 yards he climbed slightly then went nose down and shot at me as I passed just under him on the merge, from straight out in front of and just above me. Hit my radiator and got some other pings, but I did manage to turn around and kill him. Still, it was a blatant HO and he denied it repeatedly. I thought it was a rather low-class move.
Sounds more like he had an angle from that description. Not Head On, co alt, nose to nose in level flight. Somewhere in that merge, angles were given up.
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a Ho is only a Ho when both parties have a gun solution. and only then is a Ho a Ho. :salute
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Do you guys still consider it a HO if one person is deliberately trying to avoid the HO, and the other guy takes the shot? What if as we approach I drop my nose to get separation and avoid the HO shot and the other guy takes it, is that not a HO in your eyes because at the time of the shot my plane's forward vector was maybe 5 or 10 degrees under his plane? Gimme a break.
In the case I'm talking about the only angle this other guy had on me was because I deliberately tried to fly under him - I was in only a shallow climb and it would have been trivial to get my nose up and shoot him in the face. I just hate it when longtime advanced players in a 1 on 1 relatively even scenario (he was in a Spit 9, I was in a Seafire) take the HO shot and then try to dress it up in fancy terms to avoid the stigma.
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Not all Zeroes HO either, I go out of my way just not to HO people and only do I happen to a handful of times at best because of weird angles that I didn't think would turn out to be a HO.
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Everyone "HO"s so to say. Unless you BnZ, or you don't have a merge. HO or Head-on, does not say Head-on Shot, meaning when you say "HO tard" you accuse someone of simply merging. Now if it was HOS, then yes that is different.
-Technicality man strikes again :lol
Ok i had my fun, keep the conversation going :D
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I suck at HOing so bad that I lost one vs a zeke in my chog....... :uhoh
funny you say that. on the occasioons i've tried, i seem to always miss. to me it's like a dead six shot.....it just seems very hard for me to hit them.
now, give me a snapshot where i don't really have any time to aim, and i seem to hit much much better....
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Doesn't mean they don't try to HO.. when you are low on the deck in turn fights it's almost always the TnB planes doing most of the HOing, simply because they can turn in faster to try and force that kind of merge. Personally I don't care about HOtwits because 9 times out of 10 they are easy kills. The cons that don't HO on merges are the one's I worry about more, because I figure they likely have a clue as to whats going on.
i fly zekes(both versions) if required for furball or quick base defense, hurris for the same reasons, spitfires(5, or 9), and have been moving into the hellkitty. i don't ho. in the zekes there's no need to, as if you're dumb enough to try to turn with me, i'll have some good shots from your six area very shortly. same with the hurri, and spits.
the hellcat is a bit of work for me, but i like her, and am flying her mostly to learn it. i still don't ho in it, as then i'd learn nothing.
<<S>>
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:huh
first off any one who HOs in a zero is a idiot, thats the worst plane for HOs.on top of that, there's no need...you'll have their 6 in a few turns
second, i hope you dont think all Hurri drivers HO, cuz this is one Hurri driver that tries very hard not to HO, i have had 5 and more attacking me at once and they are all Hoing, yet i still try to avoid them, i cant say that i never Ho, i will Ho a zero every time. :twhen i'm outnumbered that badly, if i'm still alive, and they're all ho'in me, then i might give it back.
what i think is funny, is when people believe that because you fly a particular plane you are gonna fly a certain way, run in a LA, Ho in a hurri, ect ecti've found that people that thinnk like that...or make such accusations(just like in RL) are usually more guilty of these things than the ones they're complaining about
when are you that think like that, gonna realize every one is different? :noid
just know, that no matter what plane i am flying i will fight, i love the TnB, so i fly those planes that excel at that, and if i am in a LA 5 or 7, i will not run until i am bingo, for the LA is one of, if not the best TnBer in game. :salute
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No it doesn't. It takes two to merge, and although I usually manage to evade the HO, if the other guy happens to be a good shot he still may well get some hits on ya.
Speaking of which, a guy who I won't name HOed me yesterday on a merge and then denied it to my face on 200, saying that what he'd done didn't constitute a HO. Let's see, we started 5k out from each other, he was probably 300-500 feet higher alt than me, so I was climbing slightly toward him. In the last 1000 yards he climbed slightly then went nose down and shot at me as I passed just under him on the merge, from straight out in front of and just above me. Hit my radiator and got some other pings, but I did manage to turn around and kill him. Still, it was a blatant HO and he denied it repeatedly. I thought it was a rather low-class move.
film?
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Not that anyone cares, but my own personal rule, I will not HO on the merge, after that...Whatever gun solution I can get.
Arty
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Personally I llllllooooooovvvvvvvveeeeeeee HO's. It's all about connection; who has the fastest connection usually wins. I am a newbie although I have been around fighter sims for quite awhile (War Birds, etc) and have found that those who choose to take a HO and lose have a practiced amount of names to call, but names don't do a thing except make me laugh. I get killed a lot too, but when I asked my Uncle, who flew P-38's with the 14th Air Force in China, about the maneuver he said "We were taught to take a HO whenever we could. He only had one kill and it was when a Hamp? HO'd him. Anyway I really enjoy the game and having all of you to play with.
Be advised though if you give me a chance to HO I will take it. PS I fly a Corsair, the one with the big mama boom booms. Cya in the sky.
EZStir
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Not really.. the biggest HO twits are almost always the tards that fly planes like Zeek's, Niki's & Hurricane 2's. Typically any fight involving those aircraft ends up with them trying to force HO shots after HO shot on every merge. You can only avoid so many when fighting those kinds of dweeb planes, simply because they can out turn most other planes. The Niki doesn't turn as good as the other two, but it makes up for it with 4 20mms the tards can spray and pray with.
This is so true. The, "Takes two to HO", myth is a complete and utter load of crap. It's one of those things that people think is true simply because it is parrotted so much.
A more maneuverable plane can force a HO upon an unwilling, less maneuverable opponent. This is especially true if the HO'ee is under control compression or is in such a low relative E state he cannot "duck" it as is the case in a lot of low-speed/low-alt furball situations. Niki and Hurricane drivers are the ones I see do this most, they will heave around aggressively to change the aspect of their angle to you so quickly that what was a rear quarter approach a second ago is now an incoming face shot. Other planes do it also, depending on the match-up, but those two are the most prevalent because of their cannons and turnrate. Sometimes they can be avoided, but if low and slow or compressed it usually means the unattractive alternatives of either giving up a juicy high profile shot to the HO'er or compromising your position so much that he can just simply "latch on" to you. This is not meant to be a comment on the validity of HO'ing as a tactic, just to point out the victim of a HO'er is not by any means necessarily complicate in his fate.
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HO is a valid tactic...deal with it. P38 pilots in WWII were TOLD to HO when Zekes attacked in a BnZ approach.
However, that said, I do think it's absurd when someone has a 5K alt advantage that you mitigate through maneuvering, then he resorts to the HO as a last act of desperation.
All that aside, if you aim for my nose and you don't start turning at 1.5K, the HO is on, as far as I'm concerned. I don't care WHAT I'm flying..I'm squeezing the trigger.
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Complaining about HO's is like complaining that the ocean's blue.
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HO is a valid tactic...deal with it. P38 pilots in WWII were TOLD to HO when Zekes attacked in a BnZ approach.
However, that said, I do think it's absurd when someone has a 5K alt advantage that you mitigate through maneuvering, then he resorts to the HO as a last act of desperation.
All that aside, if you aim for my nose and you don't start turning at 1.5K, the HO is on, as far as I'm concerned. I don't care WHAT I'm flying..I'm squeezing the trigger.
What type of idiot would start turning on a merge before 1.5k...
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:huh
first off any one who HOs in a zero is a idiot, thats the worst plane for HOs.
second, i hope you dont think all Hurri drivers HO, cuz this is one Hurri driver that tries very hard not to HO, i have had 5 and more attacking me at once and they are all Hoing, yet i still try to avoid them, i cant say that i never Ho, i will Ho a zero every time. :t
what i think is funny, is when people believe that because you fly a particular plane you are gonna fly a certain way, run in a LA, Ho in a hurri, ect ect
when are you that think like that, gonna realize every one is different? :noid
just know, that no matter what plane i am flying i will fight, i love the TnB, so i fly those planes that excel at that, and if i am in a LA 5 or 7, i will not run until i am bingo, for the LA is one of, if not the best TnBer in game. :salute
No offense but saying you excel at flying in a Huri 2, a LA5 or 7 is like bragging you got the back seat on the short bus. It's just not saying much.. :lol
On the Zeeks HOing I see it all the time at CV fights, but I never said they weren't idiots.. :rofl
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Do you guys still consider it a HO if one person is deliberately trying to avoid the HO, and the other guy takes the shot? What if as we approach I drop my nose to get separation and avoid the HO shot and the other guy takes it, is that not a HO in your eyes because at the time of the shot my plane's forward vector was maybe 5 or 10 degrees under his plane? Gimme a break.
In the case I'm talking about the only angle this other guy had on me was because I deliberately tried to fly under him - I was in only a shallow climb and it would have been trivial to get my nose up and shoot him in the face. I just hate it when longtime advanced players in a 1 on 1 relatively even scenario (he was in a Spit 9, I was in a Seafire) take the HO shot and then try to dress it up in fancy terms to avoid the stigma.
allow for more separation at merge.
again a Ho is when both parties have a gun solution. so i would say no it wasn't a Ho.
ill try to explain, if i loose ya sorry im a artist not a writer,
lets see, when i merge with someone(depending on nme planes e state)(and my e state) i will shallow dive or climb, when the target gets within 1500(again depending on nme plane gun range) i start to turn into them, i will fake a couple moves, as they are getting closer,(keep them guessing), at this point i am watching the nme closely, and i roll to the direction the nme will have to red out to follow, now depending on what the target does will depend on what i do.
i picture a giant basketball between me and nme, my goal is to fly around the ball to get behind the target, very similar to tai chi, imagine you are holding a basketball between your hands rolling it around, never taking hands off the ball, each one of the rolls is in reality a block or punch.(or both in one move)
now if you do this while in your plane, you will see when and where to pull the maneuvers you need to use to get behind the target.
couple things to remember the more fakes you can pull the more confused they will be, try to make them red out while you avoid the red out, turn or fake into the opposite direction the nme is traveling don't be afraid of going inverted in the merge(this allows for awesome fakes), and learn to fly in the blackout, change direction when you are in the blackout(obviously not total blackout) carry 50% fuel and drop tanks.
ALWAYS ALWAYS fight,(NEVER VULCH) no matter the odds (this will improve your SA) and people will respect you allot more for trying to fight, then running at the sign of being out numbered, and if you do these things and dont give up, it will be very shortly before the Hoers easily die to your guns, and you will be able to carry on a awesome Multi con engagement.
trust me there is nothing quite like the feeling(in AH) of killing multi cons trying to kill you, with no vulches or picks.
so far my personal best is 7 attackers with 7 sculpts, but i have had many 2 on 1, or 3 on 1 where i have killed all attackers, plus i have fought more then 10 planes by myself killing some of them, and when i finally run out of ammo fighting them just for the thrill of the fight.
well i hope this helps, like i said im not good with words.
oh and one more thing fight red guys for your killz, not green.(in other words don't hoard, fight the Hoard)
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Complaining about HO's is like complaining that the ocean's blue.
come to new jersey. it's not blue here :rofl :rofl
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No offense but saying you excel at flying in a Huri 2, a LA5 or 7 is like bragging you got the back seat on the short bus. It's just not saying much.. :lol
On the Zeeks HOing I see it all the time at CV fights, but I never said they weren't idiots.. :rofl
dude, you're either fishing, or really stupid.
each aircraft takes its own set of skills. some are easier than others.
some pilots that fly the fast planes and fight(?) BnZ style, would die rather quickly in a zeke. most that fly the slower turning planes can actually adfapt fairly quickly to the faster planes.
<<S>><
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I know how to avoid the HO, but what I hate the most is when people HO call it an "angle" or a "'high' Deflection" when they know it was a HO.
I personally know how to HO, and have HOed F6F in a Hurri1 and killed them, but I don't like to HO. I usually chose the side to get on someones six, other than getting the " 'High' Deflection" shots.
realy, I know when to shoot when its not to HO, and when its not time to shoot when it is to not HO.
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dude, you're either fishing, or really stupid.
each aircraft takes its own set of skills. some are easier than others.
some pilots that fly the fast planes and fight(?) BnZ style, would die rather quickly in a zeke. most that fly the slower turning planes can actually adfapt fairly quickly to the faster planes.
<<S>><
so what your saying is that a spixteen needs skill?
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Its not the turning ability that turns every merge with a zeke into a HO (if the zeke pulls the trigger), its the sheer lack of speed and lack of E retention of the zeke compared to the other plane (which is assuredly extending 1k or more away each time while moving 150 MPH faster).
I'm not complainging, I know what I'm going to get when I up the zeke. Personally I think flying the A6M2 is entertaining even when my goal is only to see how many times I can make someone miss.
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No offense but saying you excel at flying in a Huri 2, a LA5 or 7 is like bragging you got the back seat on the short bus. It's just not saying much.. :lol
On the Zeeks HOing I see it all the time at CV fights, but I never said they weren't idiots.. :rofl
just so you understand something, i fly the hurri because i love to fight and kill, fighting is what this game is about, air combat, killing the bad guy, and not going to prison for it.
who is smarter? the guy who flies the 38 (or other planes that are designed for BnZ tactics) and tries to TnB in it, or the guy that takes up a true TnBer
to dogfight?
nether is "smarter" or better, but each is correct because that is how THEY wish to play, and that is whats important!!!!
i do not judge anyone for the planes they fly, i discern what kind of player they are by HOW they fly and "fight", not what.
and yes i have flown many a tour with out flying the Hurri or LA, and still got over 500 killz in a month.
but i have the best results in my Hurri, it seems i can hit better in that plane than any other.
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Takes 2 to HO.
I'll see your 2 and raise you 1 :D
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HO is a valid tactic...deal with it. P38 pilots in WWII were TOLD to HO when Zekes attacked in a BnZ approach.
However, that said, I do think it's absurd when someone has a 5K alt advantage that you mitigate through maneuvering, then he resorts to the HO as a last act of desperation.
All that aside, if you aim for my nose and you don't start turning at 1.5K, the HO is on, as far as I'm concerned. I don't care WHAT I'm flying..I'm squeezing the trigger.
yes, and they were also told that ho'ing is a also a dangerous tactic, as obviously, the enemy has guns on you as well. I also seem recall this is something that was advised to "newer" pilots with little experience. I don't think they were out there looking to joust and risk getting a cockpit full of lead. granted the 38 was a better plane for the HO, still dangerous. Also of note, the zero could not fly anywhere near as high as the 38's without losing alot of performance, making the 38 the typical bnz plane.
In AH, most times HO is the worst choice made, unless it is your belief that you will not get another chance to shot target...meaning you have no other options available to you. generally the situations that HO happens....low on E, fighting multiple contacts....someone (as mentioned above) turns into you forcing a HO, or 2 people lining up to HO on merge. Really the only one I would see as a "good" tactic would be being low on E, and taking a shot at another con while outnumbered. The other 2 usually occur when facing others who either don't really care about the fight or believe that if they do fight, they will die...their odds of killing a plane are better if they HO, at the high risk of dying/taking heavy damage themselves.
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No it doesn't. It takes two to merge, and although I usually manage to evade the HO, if the other guy happens to be a good shot he still may well get some hits on ya.
Speaking of which, a guy who I won't name HOed me yesterday on a merge and then denied it to my face on 200, saying that what he'd done didn't constitute a HO. Let's see, we started 5k out from each other, he was probably 300-500 feet higher alt than me, so I was climbing slightly toward him. In the last 1000 yards he climbed slightly then went nose down and shot at me as I passed just under him on the merge, from straight out in front of and just above me. Hit my radiator and got some other pings, but I did manage to turn around and kill him. Still, it was a blatant HO and he denied it repeatedly. I thought it was a rather low-class move.
From what you described ... it was definitely not a HO ... so he was right.
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Speaking of which, a guy who I won't name HOed me yesterday on a merge and then denied it to my face on 200, saying that what he'd done didn't constitute a HO. Let's see, we started 5k out from each other, he was probably 300-500 feet higher alt than me, so I was climbing slightly toward him. In the last 1000 yards he climbed slightly then went nose down and shot at me as I passed just under him on the merge, from straight out in front of and just above me. Hit my radiator and got some other pings, but I did manage to turn around and kill him. Still, it was a blatant HO and he denied it repeatedly. I thought it was a rather low-class move.
That's not a Head On by any stretch of the imagination, it just describes your lack of merge tactics. A head on is if you are both following a course that would lead to a head on collision, you know two people coming straight at each other. By you diving under on the merge, eliminates any possibility of a head on shot since both planes are not able to bring their nose to bear on each other. You did a stupid merge and got hit for it, lucky for you the other guy was just as bad a pilot as you were and you were able to recover from your mistake on the merge.
ack-ack
ack-ack
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All that aside, if you aim for my nose and you don't start turning at 1.5K, the HO is on, as far as I'm concerned. I don't care WHAT I'm flying..I'm squeezing the trigger.
Why not just flip a coin and see if you win? Except in a HO, both parties usually lose to some degree or another. It's unusual for one plane to come out unscathed. Usually, both planes take damage, often fatal.
with the HO first mentality, assuming you are at least good enough to win half your Ho's, you'll average a paltry .5 or so K/S. I don't see the fun in that.
The thought that Ho'ing is a valid tactic seems completely wrong minded to me. I describe a valid tactic as one that gives you a reasonable chance of dispatching your enemy without yourself having a reasonable chance of sustaining moderate to fatal damage. Considering this, HO'ing is not a valid tactic, barring desperate circumstances.
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I just hate it when longtime advanced players in a 1 on 1 relatively even scenario (he was in a Spit 9, I was in a Seafire) take the HO shot and then try to dress it up in fancy terms to avoid the stigma.
It sounds more like you're trying to dress up your terrible merge tactics to avoid the stigma of being shot down. Next time don't dive under the other guy as you merge. Better yet, go to Netaces.org (http://www.netaces.org) and read the lectures on how to merge properly.
ack-ack
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Takes 2 to ho is just wrong. The mantra of the mindless.When merging,I'll give the front and either dive under or pull to one side.If said tard pulls the trigger on the second merge after seeing I didnt pull the trigger,if theres a third merge hes gonna get a face full.I'll give someone the benifit of the doubt on the 2nd front pass.If I die in the process to a HO shot maby they get a clue and see I never took the shot on the first 2 passes.Maby it makes THEM think about that shot.<Oh noes!!!! Your score> We all know what scores show in here.I would much rather show someone the better way to really use ACM and forget all about the HO shot.
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so what your saying is that a spixteen needs skill?
in its own ways, yes.
it's a crutch, no doubt, and is much easier to kill in than a few aircraft, but eachj one requires a different skill set.
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Let's be clear here. Some are quibbling over the nature of the angle of the actual shot. But, what we're are really talking about is the intent to HO. Whether the would-be HOer actually hits on the dead 12 or sprays you down as you try to duck, barrel roll, jink or whatever to avoid the "pure" HO doesn't make it any less of a HO in spirit. Sure, anything other than a pure zero deflection nose to nose merge shot is not a "pure" HO. But, the guy who heaves on the stick to pull into your face or spray you down as you try to duck with his practically infinite barrage of Niki cannon rounds is no less of a HOer, regardless of the angle of deflection he scores the hits. A noble effort to avoid the Hoer resulting in giving up a higher profile, slightly off angle deflection shot doesn't disqualify the attempt as a HO. There are a lot of really good shootists in the game who love to HO and can almost as easily score hits on you when you try to evade the "pure" HO, especially if they are in a significantly more maneuverable plane, you are under control compression or in a low-E/Alt state.
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so what your saying is that a spixteen needs skill?
You need skill to be successful in any plane. Get an unskilled pilot flying a Spitfire against an average pilot and the average pilot will win. Just because a plane is easier to fly than some others doesn't mean it takes less skill to be successful in it.
ack-ack
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Let's be clear here. Some are quibbling over the nature of the angle of the actual shot. But, what we're are really talking about is the intent to HO. Whether the would-be HOer actually hits on the dead 12 or sprays you down as you try to duck, barrel roll, jink or whatever to avoid the "pure" HO doesn't make it any less of a HO in spirit. Sure, anything other than a pure zero deflection nose to nose merge shot is not a "pure" HO. But, the guy who heaves on the stick to pull into your face or spray you down as you try to duck with his practically infinite barrage of Niki cannon rounds is no less of a HOer, regardless of the angle of deflection he scores the hits. A noble effort to avoid the Hoer resulting in giving up a higher profile, slightly off angle deflection shot doesn't disqualify the attempt as a HO. There are a lot of really good shootists in the game who love to HO and can almost as easily score hits on you when you try to evade the "pure" HO, especially if they are in a significantly more maneuverable plane, you are under control compression or in a low-E/Alt state.
Regardless of the intent, the OP is purely to blame for getting hit. He could have used a many number of different merges but he decided to play chicken, flinched and dove under the other guy. His merge tactic is what caused him to get hit, not the other guy's. Had he created some seperation he would have opened up a myriad of options to choose from instead of diving under. Honestly, diving under the other guy at the merge is one of the dumbest merges you can pull, it leaves you totally exposed from nose to tail and the hits usually cause critical, if not fatal damage.
ack-ack
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You need skill to be successful in any plane. Get an unskilled pilot flying a Spitfire against an average pilot and the average pilot will win. Just because a plane is easier to fly than some others doesn't mean it takes less skill to be successful in it.
ack-ack
in other words, it's the plane, moreso than the pilot
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Regardless of the intent, the OP is purely to blame for getting hit. He could have used a many number of different merges but he decided to play chicken, flinched and dove under the other guy. His merge tactic is what caused him to get hit, not the other guy's. Had he created some seperation he would have opened up a myriad of options to choose from instead of diving under. Honestly, diving under the other guy at the merge is one of the dumbest merges you can pull, it leaves you totally exposed from nose to tail and the hits usually cause critical, if not fatal damage.
ack-ack
No, doubt there, giving up a high profile shot of any kind is bad mojo, especially if it involves your canopy. But, there are times when it is either virtually impossible to avoid a plane hellbent and determined to HO you or you attempt to avoid the HO but he throws up a wall of cannon rounds in your direction and hits you anyway. In both cases it only requires the willful desire of one of the two participants to HO. Even if the actual hits were scored off the perfect zero deflection angle, it's still a HO for all practical purposes and the perpetrator is still a HOer. Obviously, improved anti-HO tactics can somewhat minimize these things from happening in a lot of situations, but even the best anti-HO moves won't ever completely foil the habitual HO artist.
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Let's be clear here. Some are quibbling over the nature of the angle of the actual shot. But, what we're are really talking about is the intent to HO. Whether the would-be HOer actually hits on the dead 12 or sprays you down as you try to duck, barrel roll, jink or whatever to avoid the "pure" HO doesn't make it any less of a HO in spirit. Sure, anything other than a pure zero deflection nose to nose merge shot is not a "pure" HO. But, the guy who heaves on the stick to pull into your face or spray you down as you try to duck with his practically infinite barrage of Niki cannon rounds is no less of a HOer, regardless of the angle of deflection he scores the hits. A noble effort to avoid the Hoer resulting in giving up a higher profile, slightly off angle deflection shot doesn't disqualify the attempt as a HO. There are a lot of really good shootists in the game who love to HO and can almost as easily score hits on you when you try to evade the "pure" HO, especially if they are in a significantly more maneuverable plane, you are under control compression or in a low-E/Alt state.
I agree 100% and fought long and hard over this one in another thread once. Saying it's not a HO at that point is just a way to justify the HO and attempt to avoid the stigma.
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In a "furball situation", I will ho. Everytime. On the same note, in a furball, anytime an enemy ac is in my gun solutions, I will pull the trigger. The more I take out, the less there is to kill me. If I am defending/capturing a base, I will ho. Sometimes not enough time to achieve an "appropriate" merge. Now, if I'm in a fight with 1v1/2v1/2v2, etc., I will fight until one of us dies. I laugh at all these guys who complain about the ho so much. If you see the nose of an enemy ac in your gunsight at 2k or less, he is going to ho.
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I agree 100% and fought long and hard over this one in another thread once. Saying it's not a HO at that point is just a way to justify the HO and attempt to avoid the stigma.
Think about it like this...Which is worse...
Pilot A) The guy who only goes to guns if you head straight for his nose, but won't shoot if you pull to avoid or for a traditional merge, choosing instead to also merge and fight.
or
Pilot B) The guy who pulls aggressively into your face for the "pure" HO, but declines a traditional merge in favor of pulling for a spray at you even if you attempt to evade the "pure" HO for some merge separation.
Both, are HO'ers, but Pilot A only HO's by mutual consent. Pilot B will attempt to force it under almost any circumstance. Now Pilot A, by definition, is the "pure" HOer, but Pilot B, even though he may not hit you at the "pure" zero deflection angle is a much worse animal, but not necessarily a "pure" HOer. So, can anyone seriously say pilot B's tactic is more "clean" or "sportsmanlike" because the shot angle was not zero deflection like Pilot A's? Hell no, Pilot A only HO's those that choose to "joust" with him and they deserve what they get. Pilot B uses the HO or any deflection shot he can force out of it as a substitute for actual fighting...This is why the "pure" HO excuse is weak sauce, it's completely ridiculous. So, if a pilot goes to guns on the merge he's a HOer regardless of the angle he scores hits on.
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Personnaly I cant se the problem with a ho: if im daft enuf to let u get a shot in take it, cos im going to do my best to make sure you wont get another chance.
However I dont always ho myself despite being a hurri driver: I Will ho if your flying a zero (cos their turning skillz make me nervous) and if Im outnumbered (to even the odds if i can) but generally im more content to go into a barrel roll and let the opposing ho'er waste ammo on empty air, no need to risk getting shot when I know a lot of people forget how turnable hurris are on the deck.
ho'ing, picking and vulching...all "wrong" apparently but exactly which one is wrong and by how much seems to depend entirly on which plane your flying. p51s etc seem happy to pick ( sorry, that should be "clear their squaddies tail") yet get all whiney when they go head to head but forget to pull the trigger. Only last night I was right behind a spit twistin and turnin on the deck and it appeared to be raining 190s and p47s, i got the spit and ten seconds later a 190 got me...Im not gonna whine about it tho, it happens every night over and over again, but you start to learn to keep yer eyes open keep turning and not get fixated on a target. If you keep getting ho'd and dont like it you'd beter find a way not to get put in that position.
After all your flying at several hundred miles an hour and your bristling with guns, whos gonna force you to accept a ho? ;)
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I subscribe to the "it takes two to HO" but from my view point the two involved are Hoer and the Hoee :D
Never the less there always seems to be 2 :P
and BTW folks this subject was ment as a JOKE, I never dreamed it would get this type of response :t
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and BTW folks this subject was ment as a JOKE, I never dreamed it would get this type of response :t
It's called "springboarding", when a topic is used to carry on a related discussion. It's not hijacking because we're staying on the subject generally, but we're expounding upon it beyond its original scope...
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So, if a pilot goes to guns on the merge he's a HOer regardless of the angle he scores hits on.
Using a Lead Turn on the merge is hardly a HO shot or a 'cheap' tactic like some try to claim, it's a proper merge tactic. Claiming that just by going guns hot on merge is a HO is just silly. What's next, any shot not taken from the dead six position is a HO?
ack-ack
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Using a Lead Turn on the merge is hardly a HO shot or a 'cheap' tactic like some try to claim, it's a proper merge tactic. Claiming that just by going guns hot on merge is a HO is just silly. What's next, any shot not taken from the dead six position is a HO?
ack-ack
It really is in a way, that's why duel merges are cold...99% of those who "hot" merge would also not balk at all at taking a HO'ish shot if it presented itself...They're usually the same animal.
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it's almost unbelievable that there is yet another ho thread running.
it is true, that the HO is a very valid tactic.
i like to say that the HO takes next to zero skill, but then i'd be saying that that's my skill level, as on the rare occasion that i try it, i always miss. for most though, it is a very very easy shot. there is no relative movement between the HO'er, and his victem.
it seems as if these threads get started by the guy that got HO'd, and is now pissed off about it, or the guy that just got a load of bs on 200 from the guy that he HO'd.
in reality, i think why people critisize the HO in here is due to the firt thing i typed above.....no skill....shooting at an apparently stationary target. that ends the fight right there. i can understand this, as the fight is where all of the fun is. win or lose, no fight, no fun.
it's like getting on a roller coaster, and you get pulled to the top of the first drop, then it stops, and they make you get off.
after the merge(which i suck at) if i get your six, i have a blast trying to shoot ya down(gunnery sucks too). if you get my six, i have a blast tryin to shake ya off before i get killed.
gonna go finish locking up now
<<S>>
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There's a time and place to HO..But, it's not everytime and anyplace...
The sucky person who tries to HO is no problem, a two week noob can avoid those guys. Sharpshooters that put their cannon convergence out to 650 yards, turn tracers off to fool you into thinking they're "going cold" and ONLY try to HO are the ones that cause issues with it. Then they have the aim to spray off a control surface or your engine oil half the time when you try to avoid it or try to get separation for a traditional merge. I personally have no problem with HO'ing in a variety of situations, but 30 guys in a furball who ONLY want to HO even though they have several other very viable options is what chaps people's arses about it...
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It really is in a way, that's why duel merges are cold...99% of those who "hot" merge would also not balk at all at taking a HO'ish shot if it presented itself...They're usually the same animal.
You're imposing your own sense of 'fair' play in an enviroment that offers anything but. In the DA I agree, I never go guns hot on the opening merge but in the MA, a lead turn is a very valid merge tactic that is anything but a HO. Even by definition, you can't classify a lead turn as a HO shot. So no, it's not a HO in any stretch of the imagination, no matter how many paragraphs or pages you can write trying to explain that it is.
ack-ack
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You're imposing your own sense of 'fair' play in an enviroment that offers anything but. In the DA I agree, I never go guns hot on the opening merge but in the MA, a lead turn is a very valid merge tactic that is anything but a HO. Even by definition, you can't classify a lead turn as a HO shot. So no, it's not a HO in any stretch of the imagination, no matter how many paragraphs or pages you can write trying to explain that it is.
ack-ack
Well, my intention wasn't to impose anything in particular, but instead to merely point out that the ultra-stringent definition of a "pure" zero degree deflection HO really doesn't capture the true essence of what makes a HOer a HOer. The guy that pulls around for a face shot every chance he gets to the almost total exclusion of all else, whether it's the result of a lead turn or not, is still a HOer in the spirit of it. They are actually worse in a way than the guy who lines up nose to nose from 3k out guns a blazing from 1k in. I'm not in any way placing a value judgement upon the tactical validity or "fairness" of it, other than it's silly for someone to argue they didn't HO someone because it was technically a 5 degree forward quarter deflection shot, not a zero degree shot...That "hair-splitting" causes more purse fights on 200 than anything else.
Personally, there's a number of situations I will take a forward quarter shot, including a HO on someone, but there are also many situations I will sprain my wrist to try to avoid it. With my aim I am almost always in a position of advantage when it comes to forward quarter deflection shots...So, I will usually take a forward quarter shot in the following situations:
1) Against any 262
2) If I have someone hanging on their prop at the top of a rope as they are wobbling and I have gravity assist.
3) If I am low and slow against a superior turner as I am unlikely to gain a better angle.
4) If I am outnumbered more than 2 to 1.
5) If I am being bounced by more than 1 and have enough E to pull into his face without stall wobbling.
6) If I am at the top of someone else's rope and have enough E that I am not "falling off" and stall wobbling as they are coming back down.
I've HO'd the living crap out of people in all of the above situations, relatively few of those million+ times was at "pure" zero degrees deflection, but I still HO'd the crap out of them. It would have made no difference whatsoever if my shot happened to be at zero degrees or 8 degrees deflection, the intent and outcome was the exact same.
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in other words, it's the plane, moreso than the pilot
I don't see how you got that from what I said. I said get an unskilled pilot in a Spitfire against an average pilot, the average pilot will win. Why? Because he has the necessary skills to succeed in that particular fight, the unskilled pilot does not.
ack-ack
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You're imposing your own sense of 'fair' play in an enviroment that offers anything but. In the DA I agree, I never go guns hot on the opening merge but in the MA, a lead turn is a very valid merge tactic that is anything but a HO. Even by definition, you can't classify a lead turn as a HO shot. So no, it's not a HO in any stretch of the imagination, no matter how many paragraphs or pages you can write trying to explain that it is.
I used to HO regularly. I was good at it. I set my guns to 650 and always flew cannoned birds. I won 85-90% of HO's, probably 80% without damage.
When I went in, even if the other guy dodged, I could adjust and kill him almost every time. Technically then, according to you, it wasn't a HO.
I guess I should just get back to it then. Thanks for the encouragement.
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Speaking of the DA to me a cold merge is the FIRST merge after that its every man for himself. I got chastized for taking a front aspect shot after we had danced for abit which hit home and immediately the guy cryed foul for an HO????
I guess the DA has developed new rules over the years.
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If no one has thumped their chest yet with the "I like HOers because they will be dead as soon as they pass me" line I'll add BS unless it's a totally clueless pilot!
By nature, if the HOer is "on you" then you are passing at almost 180 degrees with little seperation. There is no way in h*ll you can come around onto their six while still in range for a shot. All they need to do is seperate, reverse and try again.
All that said I've given up the HO shot. I'd rather fight. In the DA I go as far as to abstain from any front aspect shots on nose to nose re-merges although it doesn't bother me if the opponent uses them. It's just that much more gratifying if I win.
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If no one has thumped their chest yet with the "I like HOers because they will be dead as soon as they pass me" line I'll add BS unless it's a totally clueless pilot!
Typically, but not always, a perosn who HO's is usually less than stellar in ACM. Also, a person that goes for the HO is already behind in the first move off the merge.
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a perosn who HO's is usually less than stellar in ACM.
They ARE less than stellar.
A person that gos for the HO lacks all ACMs.
If they come at me HOing, that says one thing to me. "im bout to pwn them really fast"
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Typically, but not always, a perosn who HO's is usually less than stellar in ACM. Also, a person that goes for the HO is already behind in the first move off the merge.
I have been Hoed by some of the biggest names in this game. Of course they call it a deflection shot unless I win. I usually fly a Spit 9 and when I come across their 51's, 47's and 38's it is usually HO city on the first merge. I never say anything about it on 200, and I never PM, I just have learned to accept it.
Sometimes I take the effort to avoid, but depending on my mood, and seeing their intentions, I just go for it. Every now and then I win one. ;)
Just my opinion,
Fred
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They ARE less than stellar.
A person that gos for the HO lacks all ACMs.
If they come at me HOing, that says one thing to me. "im bout to pwn them really fast"
That's just pure bunk. I am not going to mention any names. But, I have been HO'ed with extreme zeal by some of the very best sticks in this game and have seen them do it to many others when they are on my team. A lot of HOers may lack in skill, but that is not to say everyone who HO's is skill-less. It's the guys who use the threat of the HO stick to make you break and lose position and E that are the dangerous ones. They are also the ones that likely also have the aim to spray off a control surface off-angle even if you try to jink out of the way. If only the clueless, skill-less, aim-less noobs HO'd we wouldn't be having this conversation. My dead 108 year old grandmother can avoid those guys no problem.
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They ARE less than stellar.
A person that gos for the HO lacks all ACMs.
If they come at me HOing, that says one thing to me. "im bout to pwn them really fast"
Care to put that to a test?
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What's next, any shot not taken from the dead six position is a HO?
ack-ack
That would only be true if the guy is checking his 6 when you shoot ... :D
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It's simple really if I get killed you are an HO tard twit, if you get killed I have excuted a perfect frontal aspect shot :D
Eh, I could care less really. Only person I HO now is SkyRock, just to make sure I still can keep my own little spot on his Right Ankle, the VIP ankle :D
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Well, my intention wasn't to impose anything in particular, but instead to merely point out that the ultra-stringent definition of a "pure" zero degree deflection HO really doesn't capture the true essence of what makes a HOer a HOer.
What your trying to do is make the "line" fuzzy. As far as I am concerned, anything outside of "pure" zero is not an HO. If I fly for a lead turn to the initial merge (in the MA), and the opponent performs a lazy counter to my lead turn and exposes his plane to my guns while he has no guns solution ... I will rake him from stem to stern. My "intent" at the onset was not to go guns to guns but to setup a better positional angle for after the first merge, had he countered my lead turn.
The lead turn is always my first intention when fighting ... now when I pull lead and the opponent spoils the lead, then I know I am in for a good fight.
The guy that pulls around for a face shot every chance he gets to the almost total exclusion of all else, whether it's the result of a lead turn or not, is still a HOer in the spirit of it. They are actually worse in a way than the guy who lines up nose to nose from 3k out guns a blazing from 1k in.
Nope ... they are the same guy ... they try from 1.5K out and will continue try to face shoot through out the fight, rather than try and get angles. These guys don't usually last more than two merges.
I'm not in any way placing a value judgement upon the tactical validity or "fairness" of it, other than it's silly for someone to argue they didn't HO someone because it was technically a 5 degree forward quarter deflection shot, not a zero degree shot...That "hair-splitting" causes more purse fights on 200 than anything else.
Actually, your interpretation of what is a "HO" is what causes, or is the reason for all the HO whines on 200. If you get taken out by a deflection shot ... then you blew it, whether it be the initial merge or any subsequent merges ... suck it up, learn from it and move on.
Personally, there's a number of situations I will take a forward quarter shot, including a HO on someone, but there are also many situations I will sprain my wrist to try to avoid it. With my aim I am almost always in a position of advantage when it comes to forward quarter deflection shots...So, I will usually take a forward quarter shot in the following situations:
1) Against any 262
2) If I have someone hanging on their prop at the top of a rope as they are wobbling and I have gravity assist.
3) If I am low and slow against a superior turner as I am unlikely to gain a better angle.
4) If I am outnumbered more than 2 to 1.
5) If I am being bounced by more than 1 and have enough E to pull into his face without stall wobbling.
6) If I am at the top of someone else's rope and have enough E that I am not "falling off" and stall wobbling as they are coming back down.
I've HO'd the living crap out of people in all of the above situations, relatively few of those million+ times was at "pure" zero degrees deflection, but I still HO'd the crap out of them. It would have made no difference whatsoever if my shot happened to be at zero degrees or 8 degrees deflection, the intent and outcome was the exact same.
I agree with all those too.
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I've started giving any top tier/easy rides three passes with their HO shots after that I now shoot back and with the hub 37 and with it's advantage I usually win against planes that don't have nose cannons. Often with the plane exploding at very close range before the collision and I get a nice blast effect to fly through. :t
If someone is flying a high eny aircraft I will never take a HO shot on them, unless vs many situation and I'm in a bad situation. PW,Oil Radiator etc.
The reason I don't go for HOs is the same reason why I don't fly with the pack and vulch/pick over enemy bases. Because it's a cheap way to get kills, requires little skill and is the stuff of newbies.
<S>...-Gixer
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Regardless of the intent, the OP is purely to blame for getting hit. He could have used a many number of different merges but he decided to play chicken, flinched and dove under the other guy. His merge tactic is what caused him to get hit, not the other guy's. Had he created some seperation he would have opened up a myriad of options to choose from instead of diving under. Honestly, diving under the other guy at the merge is one of the dumbest merges you can pull, it leaves you totally exposed from nose to tail and the hits usually cause critical, if not fatal damage.
ack-ack
I almost always dive under at a crossing angle when I see a guy flying at me straight and level knowing he intends to HO. This allows me to pop back up and over to start lining up on his six. If the Hotwits tries to pop a angle on me as I dive in, it just helps set him up even better. I can't think of any time anyone has ever hit me doing that move if I'm in control of the merge and not low on E.
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And when I'm hit, it's usually 30s or .50s...
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Care to put that to a test?
I won't speak for BiP, but I'm your huckleberry. We'll DA, you come to the merge guns hot and go for the HO. We'll see what happens from there. Say, best out of 5?
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What's next, any shot not taken from the dead six position is a HO?
ack-ack
funny enough, I was called out a few months ago for just this reason... and no, there was no one else fighting the guy.
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I used to HO regularly. I was good at it. I set my guns to 650 and always flew cannoned birds. I won 85-90% of HO's, probably 80% without damage.
When I went in, even if the other guy dodged, I could adjust and kill him almost every time. Technically then, according to you, it wasn't a HO.
I guess I should just get back to it then. Thanks for the encouragement.
Oh please, you're just twisting the definition of HO to fit your own needs. A lead turn is not a HO shot by any stretch of the imagination, it's common and basic knowledge ACM and a proper merge tactic.
ack-ack
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Actually, your interpretation of what is a "HO" is what causes, or is the reason for all the HO whines on 200. If you get taken out by a deflection shot ... then you blew it, whether it be the initial merge or any subsequent merges ... suck it up, learn from it and move on.
Ok, let's illustrate this with a concrete example. Substitute us with any two players you like in the example below.
I am flying toward you nose to nose. For whatever reason we close within guns range in "pure" HO joust fashion. You see I open fire at about D700. You then return fire with a short burst to distract me before jinking nose-down in an attempt to avoid my fire and set-up a merge. I let loose another squirt and nail your fuselage and canopy with some cannon fire and you find yourself in the tower.
Removing from the equation any interpretation of who's to "blame" for what. I shot you down at deflection technically. But, in reality it was a HO shot that was only at any angular deflection because you happened to change your aspect to me at the last moment before the rounds struck your aircraft. To say that isn't a HO is like saying a woman who has sex for drugs alone, not money, isn't technically a prostitute. Getting out a protractor and measuring the presence or absence of a deflection angle isn't what makes a HO a HO, it's the intent of the shot. The HO'ee jinking away from a barrage of cannon fire in vain doesn't exonerate the HO'er just because as the round struck him there happened to be a hair of deflection there...
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The thought that Ho'ing is a valid tactic seems completely wrong minded to me. I describe a valid tactic as one that gives you a reasonable chance of dispatching your enemy without yourself having a reasonable chance of sustaining moderate to fatal damage. Considering this, HO'ing is not a valid tactic, barring desperate circumstances.
There you go. That is really all that needs to be said on the issue, as opposed to 9 pages of "I'm too good to HO..." I like to avoid the HOs because I want to LAND at the end of the sortie, and 50/50 ain't good enough odds for me.
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Ok, let's illustrate this with a concrete example. Substitute us with any two players you like in the example below.
I am flying toward you nose to nose. For whatever reason we close within guns range in "pure" HO joust fashion. You see I open fire at about D700. You then return fire with a short burst to distract me before jinking nose-down in an attempt to avoid my fire and set-up a merge. I let loose another squirt and nail your fuselage and canopy with some cannon fire and you find yourself in the tower.
Removing from the equation any interpretation of who's to "blame" for what. I shot you down at deflection technically. But, in reality it was a HO shot that was only at any angular deflection because you happened to change your aspect to me at the last moment before the rounds struck your aircraft. To say that isn't a HO is like saying a woman who has sex for drugs alone, not money, isn't technically a prostitute. Getting out a protractor and measuring the presence or absence of a deflection angle isn't what makes a HO a HO, it's the intent of the shot. The HO'ee jinking away from a barrage of cannon fire in vain doesn't exonerate the HO'er just because as the round struck him there happened to be a hair of deflection there...
Plane A and Plane B are approaching each other for the merge. Plane A creates seperation prior to the merge while Plane B stays on his course. As the range closes, Plane A uses the seperation to go into a lead turn at the merge. Plane A is presented with a deflection shot as a result of the lead turn and rakes Plane B from nose to tail, resulting in the kill. How is this a HO?
ack-ack
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Plane A and Plane B are approaching each other for the merge. Plane A creates seperation prior to the merge while Plane B stays on his course. As the range closes, Plane A uses the seperation to go into a lead turn at the merge. Plane A is presented with a deflection shot as a result of the lead turn and rakes Plane B from nose to tail, resulting in the kill. How is this a HO?
ack-ack
In that example Plane B isn't really trying to maneuver for the merge so you couldn't say it was a HO if plane A maneuvered to gain separation. Now if plane B tried to perform a merge maneuver as plane A performed the lead turn and it became a face shot which plane A goes to guns on, rather than completing the merge "cold", then that would be a HO/face-shot in the forward deflection arc. You can't really fault the one who tries to gain separation for a HO in that circumstance if the other does nothing to counter.
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In that example Plane B isn't really trying to maneuver for the merge so you couldn't say it was a HO if plane A maneuvered to gain separation. Now if plane B tried to perform a merge maneuver as plane A performed the lead turn and it became a face shot which plane A goes to guns on, rather than completing the merge "cold", then that would be a HO/face-shot in the forward deflection arc. You can't really fault the one who tries to gain separation for a HO in that circumstance if the other does nothing to counter.
But you're assuming that Plane A was maneuving for seperation for the HO on merge. Your mistake which you keep on making is you're equating a lead turn with the beginning of a HO merge, which it clearly isn't. You are simply changing the definition to fit your own needs to try and prove your point. No matter how you spin it, the example I gave is clearly not a HO by any stretch of the imagition. Even if Plane B was to maneuver by going vertical on the merge, Plane A would still have a clean shot as a result of the lead turn, resulting in Plane B getting on the sides of the fuselodge.
ack-ack
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I won't speak for BiP, but I'm your huckleberry. We'll DA, you come to the merge guns hot and go for the HO. We'll see what happens from there. Say, best out of 5?
OK. Look me up. It's worth a test.
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But you're assuming that Plane A was maneuving for seperation for the HO on merge. Your mistake which you keep on making is you're equating a lead turn with the beginning of a HO merge, which it clearly isn't. You are simply changing the definition to fit your own needs to try and prove your point. No matter how you spin it, the example I gave is clearly not a HO by any stretch of the imagition. Even if Plane B was to maneuver by going vertical on the merge, Plane A would still have a clean shot as a result of the lead turn, resulting in Plane B getting on the sides of the fuselodge.
ack-ack
I don't think that's where this started out. I think Zazen was talking about two guys who are coming at each other for the apparent mutual HO. One attempts to break off at the last moment while the other carries through and completes the kill.
Even though at that point, the guy who carried through didn't technically HO (he hit on a forward deflection), his intent was to HO from the beginning. Zazen was arguing, and so would I, that that still constitutes a HO based on intent.
He had the intent to HO the whole time and just because you (or whomever) broke the 180 merge giving him some other tight angle it's still a HO.
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I don't think that's where this started out. I think Zazen was talking about two guys who are coming at each other for the apparent mutual HO. One attempts to break off at the last moment while the other carries through and completes the kill.
Even though at that point, the guy who carried through didn't technically HO (he hit on a forward deflection), his intent was to HO from the beginning. Zazen was arguing, and so would I, that that still constitutes a HO based on intent.
He had the intent to HO the whole time and just because you (or whomever) broke the 180 merge giving him some other tight angle it's still a HO.
Exactly!
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But you're assuming that Plane A was maneuving for seperation for the HO on merge. Your mistake which you keep on making is you're equating a lead turn with the beginning of a HO merge, which it clearly isn't.
ack-ack
It can be if the other plane is trying to do the same thing which is almost always the case. Of course if only one is trying to pull a lead turn while the other is just flying straight and level it can't really be a HO. But, only a moron or someone who didn't see you would keep flying straight and level while your busily pulling lead. So, that rarely happens. It usually ends up both try to pull lead on each other and there's some variation of a nose to nose merge therefore an opportunity to merge "hot" and HO.
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I don't think that's where this started out. I think Zazen was talking about two guys who are coming at each other for the apparent mutual HO. One attempts to break off at the last moment while the other carries through and completes the kill.
Even though at that point, the guy who carried through didn't technically HO (he hit on a forward deflection), his intent was to HO from the beginning. Zazen was arguing, and so would I, that that still constitutes a HO based on intent.
He had the intent to HO the whole time and just because you (or whomever) broke the 180 merge giving him some other tight angle it's still a HO.
yup
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I don't think that's where this started out. I think Zazen was talking about two guys who are coming at each other for the apparent mutual HO. One attempts to break off at the last moment while the other carries through and completes the kill.
Even though at that point, the guy who carried through didn't technically HO (he hit on a forward deflection), his intent was to HO from the beginning. Zazen was arguing, and so would I, that that still constitutes a HO based on intent.
He had the intent to HO the whole time and just because you (or whomever) broke the 180 merge giving him some other tight angle it's still a HO.
What AKAK described is also constantly considered a "HO" by the clueless masses.
What Zaz described is what I too would consider a HO, but the person who got HOed has no grounds to call someone out on 200 or PM, whining about the HO. That is the crux of the matter.
He entered entered the HO zone and "chickened" out or thought he could get cute and possibly spoil the HO and hoping that theirs worked.
If you die in this type of situation, you still have no one to blame but yourself, and either one of them deserve to die by the "HO" or "HO Deflection" shot and no whining or complaining should ensue.
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But the scenario I painted debunks the "It's not a HO if you don't both have gun solutions" and the "It takes two to HO" myths.
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Honestly, diving under the other guy at the merge is one of the dumbest merges you can pull, it leaves you totally exposed from nose to tail and the hits usually cause critical, if not fatal damage.
ack-ack
:rofl For years I've been saying the same thing. Not only you can get hit, but you just lost the merge. people have been selling this move as a way to avoid a HO and kill the other guy by gaining an advantage. In fact, this is one sure way to die at the merge or seconds after. Thats why I have been asking people to go to the DA with me and see what happens when you try to avoid a HO like that. So far, no takers lol.
When you merge with someone, if you are nose down and he is flat or nose up, better keep going lol
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There is one thing I havent seen brought up here yet. There are actually two kinds of angles fights in basic ACM. We predominantly have the "one circle" fight here in AH and most tactics and expectations are developed on that premis which is fundementally focused on gaining the 3-9 line. Now the other type of an angles fight is called a 2 circle fight and is focused on managing the frontal aspects of the circles intersection. This was actually a very common (much more common then the 1 circle fight) reality in WW2. A great example is the earlier comments on the hurricanes etc...while no doubt some (maybe even a majority) are just looking for a HO the reality is that the hurricane is very capable of converting a one circle fight to a two circle fight. Givne its durability and hitting power its well suited toward hunting for a good FQ shot (which is not a HO). I'd say I convert about 1/3 or more of my once circle fights in an A-20 to a 2 circle fight. As a general rule I'll take the 45 degree deflection shot if I get it or reconvert to a 1 circle fight using the vertical vs allowing anything near a mutual exchange.
The real key here is that the pilot who is now in a 2 circle fight has to realize he's going to have to manage the nose to nose aspect of the fight as well as AOT...
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There is one thing I havent seen brought up here yet. There are actually two kinds of angles fights in basic ACM. We predominantly have the "one circle" fight here in AH and most tactics and expectations are developed on that premis which is fundementally focused on gaining the 3-9 line. Now the other type of an angles fight is called a 2 circle fight and is focused on managing the frontal aspects of the circles intersection. This was actually a very common (much more common then the 1 circle fight) reality in WW2. A great example is the earlier comments on the hurricanes etc...while no doubt some (maybe even a majority) are just looking for a HO the reality is that the hurricane is very capable of converting a one circle fight to a two circle fight. Givne its durability and hitting power its well suited toward hunting for a good FQ shot (which is not a HO). I'd say I convert about 1/3 or more of my once circle fights in an A-20 to a 2 circle fight. As a general rule I'll take the 45 degree deflection shot if I get it or reconvert to a 1 circle fight using the vertical vs allowing anything near a mutual exchange.
The real key here is that the pilot who is now in a 2 circle fight has to realize he's going to have to manage the nose to nose aspect of the fight as well as AOT...
I try to think of what I would do, if this war real. If I was in a real plane, I would not really care how durable it is in that situation. I would care about not putting my head in front of the a couple of 20mm and a couple of 50 cals. Not by choice. I would not care if the plane survived if I did not have a head anymore lol. So, really, why not just try for a better shot? See what happens?
If you are out numbered, do what you have to do, but in a 1 vs 1 in similar planes, whats the point?
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Let's be clear here. Some are quibbling over the nature of the angle of the actual shot. But, what we're are really talking about is the intent to HO. Whether the would-be HOer actually hits on the dead 12 or sprays you down as you try to duck, barrel roll, jink or whatever to avoid the "pure" HO doesn't make it any less of a HO in spirit. Sure, anything other than a pure zero deflection nose to nose merge shot is not a "pure" HO. But, the guy who heaves on the stick to pull into your face or spray you down as you try to duck with his practically infinite barrage of Niki cannon rounds is no less of a HOer, regardless of the angle of deflection he scores the hits. A noble effort to avoid the Hoer resulting in giving up a higher profile, slightly off angle deflection shot doesn't disqualify the attempt as a HO. There are a lot of really good shootists in the game who love to HO and can almost as easily score hits on you when you try to evade the "pure" HO, especially if they are in a significantly more maneuverable plane, you are under control compression or in a low-E/Alt state.
I have to completely disagree with this one...
1) there is no such thing as a HO except by mutual consent in a true merge....period
2) merge tactics really start at the time of visability and any caught by suprise inside 2.0 blew it at 5.0 range
3) most Ma (and all FSO, Scenario etc) are not "same on same" or flown from equal altitude and E-state. A pilot is perfectly entitled to engage in an E, angles or "B&Z" fight as he see's fit based on the situation and matchup. This is completely seperate from dueling rules, ganging, hording and other issues of bad game play.
I love a good one on one in the MA...I dont care what your in, what I'm in or what you try and do. I'll try and use what I have to the best of its capability based on what I find. I posted this elsewhere but I'm curious what the folks here think specific to a "HO". To set the stage this is from frame 2 of rangoon. We've been chasing the buffs after the drop, I got forced down and away taking damage and then had already fought a higher E type fight with this zeke costing me a flap after he nicely avoided my rope. I'm the last A-20 and maybe the only thing that can find any maybe kill a buff or two...
So when he reverse I follow, setting up a A-20 vs A6M5 dueling stlye on the deck merge. Having gone E before and missing parts I'm looking for a quick kill and/or a chance to extend and blow thu...but if I let him stay up and dog me I'll be toast when I run into zekes in front. This is exactly the shot I wanted/expected/got...its not a HO since he never even got a shot on me IMO...it was a free pass and a clean extension if needed. It was IMO about a perfect merge for me in an A-20 vs him under the circumstances...if i'd missed I could have gone vertical and taken the high ground...
http://www.az-dsl.com/snaphook/Rangoon/frame%202/flamingriceball.ahf (http://www.az-dsl.com/snaphook/Rangoon/frame%202/flamingriceball.ahf)
This is the longer clip with both fights on it...
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Well I am on Crockets side. I hate ho twits as well.
All this talk about "I just avoid the ho".........."if you got ho ed you made a mistake".......WRONG.
There are many situations where avoiding a ho is impossible. Mostly when fighing a better turning plane in a low and slow fight. Any attempt to continue the fight by turning into the target for a lead turn or a vert maneuver will result in a nose close merge. It is here where the really CHEAP ho comes in.
On the other hand if you fly with no intent on fighting but instead make BZ high speed passes and run away every time then it is very easy for one to avoid the ho and easy for the other guy as well. This situation is not what crocket was talking about.
It is also very easy to avoid a ho on the initial merge when both are very fast. This usually make it easier to reverse if the guy goes for the ho.
There are however a few situations where I will use the ho. One being on the slower turner who makes hopeless attempts to follow me into the vert with no energy and end up prop hanging in desperation as if the were going to magically get some reversal out of that. It is like they just point there nose at me in an attempt to either ho me to start with or force me off hoping I wont shoot. Im here to tell you if you are sittin all pretty hanging there after I make the vertical stall reversall you are going to get blown out of the sky. It would have happend anyway because it would have been platform shot if it werent for the desperate nose up/prop hanging move.
The other being a zeek or a hurri. I will try to avoid it if possible but when I find a zeek/hurri pulling hard turns into me over and over squeezing of rounds before the merge its not gonna be pretty when I smack them with a tater in the prop.
And the last one being the LA dweeb who always comes blazing in for a ho while I am in a nice fight with someone who is not hoing. If I get hit like this and I aint dead I absolutly return the favor if he comes back for a second ho.
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There is one thing I havent seen brought up here yet. There are actually two kinds of angles fights in basic ACM. We predominantly have the "one circle" fight here in AH and most tactics and expectations are developed on that premis which is fundementally focused on gaining the 3-9 line. Now the other type of an angles fight is called a 2 circle fight and is focused on managing the frontal aspects of the circles intersection. This was actually a very common (much more common then the 1 circle fight) reality in WW2. A great example is the earlier comments on the hurricanes etc...while no doubt some (maybe even a majority) are just looking for a HO the reality is that the hurricane is very capable of converting a one circle fight to a two circle fight. Givne its durability and hitting power its well suited toward hunting for a good FQ shot (which is not a HO). I'd say I convert about 1/3 or more of my once circle fights in an A-20 to a 2 circle fight. As a general rule I'll take the 45 degree deflection shot if I get it or reconvert to a 1 circle fight using the vertical vs allowing anything near a mutual exchange.
The real key here is that the pilot who is now in a 2 circle fight has to realize he's going to have to manage the nose to nose aspect of the fight as well as AOT...
In a two circle fight you typically have the option of accepting or denying a HO simply by managing the arc of your own circle.
Normally, I'll avoid it by relaxing my own turn while simultaneously forcing my oppoenet to pull harder for the attempted deflection. In the end I retain E while he burns E to my advantage.
I don't blame someone for going for that shot at all because it's usually after the fight has started. For my own part I like to aviod those and keep working for the 3/9 line.
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I'll HO in two situations: 1. Trapped alone with many other bandits in my jug, or 2. If I'm droppin down on someone and they pull up into me, but only if I know they are goin very slow, like 85 or lower IAS, making it very hard for the shot anyway(with exceptions of nikis, typhs, la's, etc). On merges I just go down and left to avoid HO...works for me.
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I'll HO in two situations: 1. Trapped alone with many other bandits in my jug, or 2. If I'm droppin down on someone and they pull up into me, but only if I know they are goin very slow, like 85 or lower IAS, making it very hard for the shot anyway(with exceptons of nikis, typhs, la's, etc). On merges I just go down and left to avoid HO...works for me.
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oops
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It is also very easy to avoid a ho on the initial merge when both are very fast. This usually make it easier to reverse if the guy goes for the ho.
Lets try?
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Lets try?
Ded couldnt hit water if he fell out of a boat. :P
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Ded couldnt hit water if he fell out of a boat. :P
Shhhhhhh :O
And how does water fall out of a bowt? :huh
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Someone didn't excel in English class :uhoh :P
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Someone didn't excel in English class :uhoh :P
Oups, just did not read it right. In any case, I want to try my theory and no one is willing to help so you are it. I ll be on tonight. If cant avoid losing the fight or HO, then non of these aces will lol
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Ok, but 1st plane FM2, since you like it so much. :aok :P
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Lets try?
What?? Your kidding right.
So your saying it is not easy to avoid the ho...
or are you saying you get no advantage by making the lead turn while they are barreling in full speed for guns while I am setting up for the turn??
Whether I make the lead turn in front or cold six I will still behind them before they can make the turn back to me therefor I now have the offensive position. This means the ho er must now either run away or start the fight with me on their six.
If there is no turn back after they ho pass then that constitutes a non engagement and no "fight" will occur. Only a BZ ho fest. If this happens I will either fly away or bait them to my six for a juicy reversal and kill.
Now before anyone quotes the last sentence of the paragraph above If that happens then it really depends on how good you are at high speed baiting. If you suck at it then your gonna get killed by a faster BZ opponent.
But on the other hand if you attempt to HO and make a lead turn that just aint gonna work. Its not possilble hold guns for the shot and still make a lead turn. It is a simple matter of physics.
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Lets try?
Ded, what are you proposing? Do you need help to test your theory?
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Ded, what are you proposing? Do you need help to test your theory?
Yep. I am proposing that we try to merge while I do everything I can to get a HO shot in and the other guy tries to avoid. The theory is that if you avoid using a lead turn, I will be on your 6 instantly. You know what happens when you turn early in a duel right?
I think people confuse the easy of killing a nube that tried to HO them, with the action of taking the HO. If the HOer is any good, you have a big problem. Think of duels again. You turn early (lead turn) you die. You try to avoid a HO or collision, you expose your belly. You try to dive under, well thats just funny unless you keep going.
Anyway, I am just looking for some one to try it out with.
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Yep. I am proposing that we try to merge while I do everything I can to get a HO shot in and the other guy tries to avoid. The theory is that if you avoid using a lead turn, I will be on your 6 instantly. You know what happens when you turn early in a duel right?
I think people confuse the easy of killing a nube that tried to HO them, with the action of taking the HO. If the HOer is any good, you have a big problem. Think of duels again. You turn early (lead turn) you die. You try to avoid a HO or collision, you expose your belly. You try to dive under, well thats just funny unless you keep going.
Anyway, I am just looking for some one to try it out with.
Sounds like you confused on exactly what a "lead turn" is ... it doesn't mean "turn early".
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Sounds like you confused on exactly what a "lead turn" is ... it doesn't mean "turn early".
K, you try then? It will take 5 minutes and we will know, or we can type here for ever.
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OK, who is up for tonight? After 9:30 CST?
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OK, who is up for tonight? After 9:30 CST?
dedalos
ill be around most likely(hopefully), you are always a great fight!
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Hey D
I want to try as well.
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Hey D
I want to try as well.
cool, I just want to see if I am right or wrong
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I did a few with Bighorn. Even thought he is old, blind, and his reflexes are gone, it looks like the HOer does gain a small advantage. Vs someone average, I would think the HOer would gain an even bigger advantage