Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Maniac on August 18, 2008, 03:02:38 PM
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So, what is your personal oppinion on what should be done about the Russian occupation of Georgia? Medved promised Sarkozy that the troops would be going home today. And there is no signs of this happening. Rather the opposite.
What is your personal oppinion about what should be done at this stage?
Ill start. Europe and the USA should start forming a Military coalition similar to the one that was formed for Gulf War 1. The US and Europe should start to send some kind of troops to the region.
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I'll agree with what you said, but I think Europe should deal with it, or at least mostly. U.S. is spread thin as it is, IMHO.
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Ask The Beard.
:rofl
ROX
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Ill start. Europe and the USA should start forming a Military coalition similar to the one that was formed for Gulf War 1. The US and Europe should start to send some kind of troops to the region.
What? No sanctions?
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Apparently there is concern Medvedev is not in control (gasps)......
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Sanctions. Absolutely. But ONLY if the sanctions pass the UN Security Council where Russia is a member with veto power. We must follow procedure.
Then, if it passes, allow 12 years for the sanctions to work.. give or take a few years.
If the sanctions don't work THEN roll-out the big guns. Put the measure before the UNSC again and vote on even tougher sanctions, to include crossing Russia off the Christmas card list of every other G8 nation.
Then we'll have peace in our time!
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If Europe wants to get involved and help out all they have to do is grant Georgias request to join NATO. At that point Russia either backs out, or gets it's butt handed to them. I bet this time around the Germans could take Moscow.
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Sanctions. Absolutely. But ONLY if the sanctions pass the UN Security Council where Russia is a member with veto power. We must follow procedure.
Certainly. And the UNSC must agree on the use of military force as well.
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My problem is with that arrogant twit leading Georgia. He could have handled the initial problem much differently and avoided giving the russians a reason.
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Sanctions. Absolutely.
Russia is second largest oil producer and second largest oil exporter...
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My problem is with that arrogant twit leading Georgia. He could have handled the initial problem much differently and avoided giving the russians a reason.
I agree to that. But the same thing could be said about the Iraq invasion of Kuwait. Saddam did not just wake up one day and decided to invade Kuwait for its oil. There were other reasons behind it.
I can see alot of parallels between Iraqs invasion of Kuwait, and Russias invasion of Georgia. And to be honest, the same measures should be taken to solve this conflict as in Gulf War 1.
Though Kuwait's large oil reserves were widely considered to be the main reason behind the Iraqi invasion, the Iraqi government justified its invasion by claiming that Kuwait was a natural part of Iraq carved off due to British imperialism.[12] After signing the Anglo-Ottoman Convention of 1913, the United Kingdom split Kuwait and Iraq into two separate emirates. The Iraqi government also argued that the Kuwaiti Emir was a highly unpopular figure among the Kuwaiti populace. By overthrowing the Emir, Iraq claimed that it granted Kuwaitis greater economic and political freedom.[5]
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So, what is your personal oppinion on what should be done about the Russian occupation of Georgia? Medved promised Sarkozy that the troops would be going home today. And there is no signs of this happening. Rather the opposite.
What is your personal oppinion about what should be done at this stage?
Ill start. Europe and the USA should start forming a Military coalition similar to the one that was formed for Gulf War 1. The US and Europe should start to send some kind of troops to the region.
what can it do to us? can it harm us that they're there?
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what can it do to us? can it harm us that they're there?
Is this a Devil's Advocate retort?
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Maniac, you are a lone voice crying out in the wilderness. I wonder how many of your fellow Euro posters (other than Dowding maybe) will agree with you?
Naht-ganna-happen.
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And just how should he have handled Russia undermining his authority? What if Russia had done the same in the US and handed out passports to everyone that wanted them. Then if we had an issue with those people wanting to seceed from the US and we did not want that, would Russia attack us then? Seems the logic there is a little messed up. Isn't that the same type of colonizing that the Nazis and Japan used before WWII to push their territory further?
Besides, all politicians are arrogant. Just look at Putin and Obamassiah.
Also, another point. What if Russia had gone to the UN first instead of attacking a soveriegn nation? Would things be different? Or, were they just interested in returning the USSR to its former state?
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My problem is with that arrogant twit leading Georgia. He could have handled the initial problem much differently and avoided giving the russians a reason.
Yup, he gambled and lost. Now the population gets to suffer for his stupidity. Personally (and im not gonna start arguing why again) I feel that SO and Abkhazia or however its spelled should be under Russia. Most of the citizens there wants to anyway. Then russia can leave Georgia alone. They will leave when they are done anyway. The Russians knows it wont do them any good to occupy Georgia in the long run.
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Russia is second largest oil producer and second largest oil exporter...
All the more reason for the US to be a self sufficient oil producer and withdrawal from the world Oil market.
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Yup, he gambled and lost. Now the population gets to suffer for his stupidity. Personally (and im not gonna start arguing why again) I feel that SO and Abkhazia or however its spelled should be under Russia. Most of the citizens there wants to anyway. Then russia can leave Georgia alone. They will leave when they are done anyway. The Russians knows it wont do them any good to occupy Georgia in the long run.
It should be said that no confirmation has been done to the claims that Georgia started the conflict. When/If this is confirmed i might start to agree with some of your points in your posts. But certainly not all of them.
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Well thats the beauty of the BBS. There are almost as many different opinons as there are members ;)
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Well thats the beauty of the BBS. There are almost as many different opinons as there are members ;)
And some people try to pass their opinions as fact. I try to refrain from that.
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Yup some do
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It should be said that no confirmation has been done to the claims that Georgia started the conflict. When/If this is confirmed i might start to agree with some of your points in your posts. But certainly not all of them.
You're probably not gonna get any, either. The Media was having a hard time over there, due to the fact that they were spending quite some time ducking bullets. The Russians' have gone into a Cold-war propaganda mode, and Georgian' official websites' were under electronic attack, so that much of their info was corrupted.
I have read where the initial conflict possibly started when Ossetian' seperatist artillery provoked a response from a Georgian battery, then Pravda ran with it from there.
All of you saying that the Georgians' got what they deserved need to stop and ask yourself why the Russian response was almost instantaneous, with a full-blown invasion...those take time to plan and setup. This was not an accident.
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send them all to see a braves game quik! :aok
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Since the US is always told we are meddling in affairs that don't concern us.... I say Europe, fend for yourself. Let's see how that goes over. :aok
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Refresh my memory. When was the last time (before this Russian anomaly) a UN peacekeeping force jumped off immediately and took the combat to the enemy?
I recall reading many Euro explanations here that UN peacekeepers were not supposed to fight. It was GScholz's favorite excuse for the Dutch battalion allowing themselves to be disarmed and neutered.
What happened to that ethic Nilsen?
As Frode and others have pointed out
estimated 6,000 to 10,000 Russian troops were on the main highway leading into Georgia. By 1:00 pm on August 8, witnesses reported roads filled with hundreds of tanks, armored personnel carriers, towed artillery, and truck-mounted rocket launchers already travelling into the Roki Tunnel, which passes through the mountainous area that separates Russia and Georgia.[2]
From the number of troops and types of equipment, and given the units of the 58th Army based nearby, it is clear that Russia deployed the equivalent of a motor rifle division. For such a force to move from bivouac into the field, Russian army commanders would have needed time to coordinate the mobilization—distributing ammunition and supplies, establishing the right of way on the only highway to Georgia, and sorting out the proper ordering of the advancing column so that it could combat any resistance it may encounter.
Are any of you still going to pretend that this was just an immediate reaction by Russian peacekeepers?
Gents, this is/was a pre-planned military operation.
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I think we need to get troops on the ground to at least guarantee Tbilisi's integrity, and Turkey needs to be the route through which we do it. I'm not sure where those troops would come from - Britain can barely support operations in Afghanistan and Iraq. We would need to pull out of Iraq completely I should think, to deploy to Georgia (Afghanistan is too important to scale back). We may not have many troops left in Iraq, but I suspect the drain on logistics is quite severe.
The truth is the international community hasn't got a clue how to handle this one - and that includes the US.
A week ago I woke up one morning with an awful foreboding about all this. It sounds melodramatic, but it was melodramatic. I dismissed it over the following few days, but the more I see Russian forces not pulling back, the more I think something big is about to happen. The last thing we need is Russian-NATO relations going straight to a hot war without even passing through a luc-warm stage.
In the late 1940s the West made a mistake about Russia. Let's not repeat it. The only ray of sunshine that I can see is that the world is a network of multi-national companies now with multi-national CEOs only really concerned with their bottom line. It's not like the 1940s where each nation was pretty much self-sufficient in comparison. Now everything is inextricably linked - and whether you're a Russian oil tycoon or an Arab sheikh, war is destabiling and profit destroying. And generally it is bad business to make war on your customer base. Russia is controlled by energy billionaires these days - there is no politburo any longer. That difference should not be ignored.
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Refresh my memory. When was the last time (before this Russian anomaly) a UN peacekeeping force jumped off immediately and took the combat to the enemy?
I recall reading many Euro explanations here that UN peacekeepers were not supposed to fight. It was GScholz's favorite excuse for the Dutch battalion allowing themselves to be disarmed and neutered.
What happened to that ethic Nilsen?
As Frode and others have pointed out
Are any of you still going to pretend that this was just an immediate reaction by Russian peacekeepers?
Gents, this is/was a pre-planned military operation.
-edit- lol nevermind
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All of you saying that the Georgians' got what they deserved need to stop and ask yourself why the Russian response was almost instantaneous, with a full-blown invasion...those take time to plan and setup. This was not an accident.
Georgia/South Ossetia problem wasn't new. After 2006 referendum and earlier Georgia's involvement in Chechnya, Russians were watching closely.
It just means they did their homework (being ready).
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I think we need to get troops on the ground to at least guarantee Tbilisi's integrity, and Turkey needs to be the route through which we do it. I'm not sure where those troops would come from - Britain can barely support operations in Afghanistan and Iraq. We would need to pull out of Iraq completely I should think, to deploy to Georgia (Afghanistan is too important to scale back). We may not have many troops left in Iraq, but I suspect the drain on logistics is quite severe.
The truth is the international community hasn't got a clue how to handle this one - and that includes the US.
A week ago I woke up one morning with an awful foreboding about all this. It sounds melodramatic, but it was melodramatic. I dismissed it over the following few days, but the more I see Russian forces not pulling back, the more I think something big is about to happen. The last thing we need is Russian-NATO relations going straight to a hot war without even passing through a luc-warm stage.
Your foreboding is apparently correct.
In Moscow, the deputy chief of the Russian general staff, Col.-Gen. Anatoly Nogovitsyn, told a briefing that "today, according to the peace plan, the withdrawal of Russian peacekeepers and reinforcements has begun" and said forces were leaving Gori.
But Russian tanks and troops roamed freely around the city and made forays toward the Georgian capital of Tbilisi, 55 miles to the southeast. Russia also kept control of the critical highway that slices through Georgia's midsection.
AP reporters saw four Russian armored personnel carriers, each carrying about 15 men, rolling from Gori to Igoeti, a crossroads town even closer to Tbilisi, passing Georgian soldiers who sat by the roadside.
The Russians moved into Igoeti then turned off onto a side road. As the Russian vehicles rolled past a group of Georgian soldiers and policemen, one swerved and scraped a new Georgian police car. The Georgians looked down at their fingernails.
U.S. officials, speaking on condition of anonymity because they were discussing intelligence reports, said at least one Russian battalion equipped with more than a dozen SS-21 missile launchers had moved into South Ossetia, within range of Tbilisi. Nogovitsyn disputed the claim.
The RIA-Novosti news agency reported that the leader of South Ossetia, Eduard Kokoity, asked Russia on Monday to establish a permanent base there.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080818/ap_on_re_eu/georgia_russia (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080818/ap_on_re_eu/georgia_russia)
SS-21's? What do they need SRBM's for? Why do they need to be close enough to hit Tbilisi? Why does it seem like Putin is so adamant about pushing our buttons?
With all of those questions' on top of your heads, fellas, maybe you can come up with an answer to this one for me; What's Putin gonna do if there is some kind of military response...?
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Georgia/South Ossetia problem wasn't new. After 2006 referendum and earlier Georgia's involvement in Chechnya, Russians were watching closely.
It just means they did their homework (being ready).
...Yes, they did do their homework. But it wasn't for a simple peace-keeping mission. They had an invasion in mind for a long time. A simple matter of an artillery duel could have been settled a lot more peacefully than an invasion.
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1st. The georgian Sakashvili should be deposed and sent to a war-criminal-tribunal like Saddam for using his military for killing thousands of his own people.
2nd. Ossetia and Abchasia should perform a democratic referendum - answering the questions if they want to remain in Georgia after georgian troops were used against their civilians or not. If not the question has to be answered if they want to become independent or if they want to join Russia (uniting N- and S-ossetia).
3rd. Russian troops which have saved the ossetians against the georgian troops should stay in teh area, guarding the ossetians against further georgian terror attacks - at least as long as the Saddam like Sakashvili is on power
4th. An instable country like Georgia with a Saddam-like insane president should not get the chance to enter the NATO. Just imagine the consequences of his actions, when he ordered thousands of civilians killed in the attack against the ossetian capital city, if this was made by a NATO country.
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Personally I think they are waiting for a spark to start the steam roller moving again. They'll take Tbilisi and install a puppet regime. I can't see any other reason behind their actions.
1st. The georgian Sakashvili should be deposed and sent to a war-criminal-tribunal like Saddam for using his military for killing thousands of his own people.
2nd. Ossetia and Abchasia should perform a democratic referendum - answering the questions if they want to remain in Georgia after georgian troops were used against their civilians or not. If not the question has to be answered if they want to become independent or if they want to join Russia (uniting N- and S-ossetia).
3rd. Russian troops which have saved the ossetians against the georgian troops should stay in teh area, guarding the ossetians against further georgian terror attacks - at least as long as the Saddam like Sakashvili is on power
4th. An instable country like Georgia with a Saddam-like insane president should not get the chance to enter the NATO. Just imagine the consequences of his actions, when he ordered thousands of civilians killed in the attack against the ossetian capital city, if this was made by a NATO country.
Your whole argument is based on '2000 civilians killed'. This has not been verified. The Red Cross is barred from South Ossetia. Hospital records obtained from there show only 44 deaths at the capital's infirmiary.
You should wait for independent corroboration before setting up the court-room.
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Insert Quote
1st. The georgian Sakashvili should be deposed and sent to a war-criminal-tribunal like Saddam for using his military for killing thousands of his own people.
2nd. Ossetia and Abchasia should perform a democratic referendum - answering the questions if they want to remain in Georgia after georgian troops were used against their civilians or not. If not the question has to be answered if they want to become independent or if they want to join Russia (uniting N- and S-ossetia).
3rd. Russian troops which have saved the ossetians against the georgian troops should stay in teh area, guarding the ossetians against further georgian terror attacks - at least as long as the Saddam like Sakashvili is on power
4th. An instable country like Georgia with a Saddam-like insane president should not get the chance to enter the NATO. Just imagine the consequences of his actions, when he ordered thousands of civilians killed in the attack against the ossetian capital city, if this was made by a NATO country.
Can you show us proof of this other than what is printed in Pravda?
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Personally I think they are waiting for a spark to start the steam roller moving again. They'll take Tbilisi and install a puppet regime. I can't see any other reason behind their actions.
Your whole argument is based on '2000 civilians killed'. This has not been verified. The Red Cross is barred from South Ossetia. Hospital records obtained from there show only 44 deaths at the capital's infirmiary.
You should wait for independent corroboration before setting up the court-room.
Yes - but I think its a fact that the president of a country ordered his military to attack a city and many civilians were killed. Thats very much like Saddam and his war against the iraqi kurds.
I would not accept a mad man like Saddam/Sakashvili to be my president if he ordered to attack and kill my people - regardless if his troops killed 40, 400 or 4000 civilians.
And who knows how many ossetians would have been massacred if the russians have not reacted so quickly - kicking out the georgians from the ossetian territory?
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They need to be kicked out... I don't care who or what combination of people do it, but S.O. is a part of Georgia... Russians have no business there. If you believe S.O. should be a splinter state when all of Georgia has a population of 5M or so, then please, pretty please let my state out of this soon-to-be-socialist union!
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Wher is the proof that he ordered said attack? Where is your corroboration? To make these kinds of blanket statements, you must have proof.
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I agree to that. But the same thing could be said about the Iraq invasion of Kuwait. Saddam did not just wake up one day and decided to invade Kuwait for its oil. There were other reasons behind it.
I can see alot of parallels between Iraqs invasion of Kuwait, and Russias invasion of Georgia. And to be honest, the same measures should be taken to solve this conflict as in Gulf War 1.
You have it backwards, parallel Iraq/Kuwait, Georgia/Osetia. US/Iraq1 Russia/Georgia :aok
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You have it backwards, parallel Iraq/Kuwait, Georgia/Osetia. US/Iraq1 Russia/Georgia :aok
Please type more. I cant decypher your post.
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You have it backwards, parallel Iraq/Kuwait, Georgia/Osetia. US/Iraq1 Russia/Georgia :aok
IMHO, it doesn't really parallel, Mark. Mainly because of the Actions' we took, versus Iraq's, and the way the Russians' handled this. They are more like two different stories.
Iraq was also stuck with a war debt of roughly $75 billion[citation needed]. Borrowing money from the U.S. was making Iraq dependent on outside loans, embarrassing a leader who had sought to define Arab nationalism. Saddam also borrowed a tremendous amount of money from other Arab states during the 1980s to fight Iran. Faced with rebuilding Iraq's infrastructure, Saddam desperately sought out cash once again, this time for postwar reconstruction.
Tensions with Kuwait
The end of the war with Iran served to deepen latent tensions between Iraq and its wealthy neighbor Kuwait. Saddam saw his war with Iran as having spared Kuwait from the imminent threat of Iranian domination. Since the struggle with Iran had been fought for the benefit of the other Persian Gulf Arab states as much as for Iraq, he argued, a share of Iraqi debt should be forgiven. Saddam urged the Kuwaitis to forgive the Iraqi debt accumulated in the war, some $30 billion, but the Kuwaitis refused. (Humphreys, 105)
Also to raise money for postwar reconstruction, Saddam pushed oil-exporting countries to raise oil prices by cutting back oil production. Kuwait refused to cut production. In addition to refusing the request, Kuwait spearheaded the opposition in OPEC to the cuts that Saddam had requested. Kuwait was pumping large amounts of oil, and thus keeping prices low, when Iraq needed to sell high-priced oil from its wells to pay off a huge debt.
On another compelling level, Saddam Hussein and many Iraqis considered the boundary line between Iraq and Kuwait, cutting Iraq off from the sea, a historical wrong imposed by British imperial officials in 1922. (Humphreys, 105) Saddam was not alone in this belief. For at least half a century, Iraqi nationalists were espousing emphatically the belief that Kuwait was historically an integral part of Iraq, and that Kuwait had only come into being through the maneuverings of British imperialism. This belief was one of the few articles of faith uniting the political scene in a nation rife with sharp social, ethnic, religious, and ideological divides. (Humphreys, 105)
The colossal extent of Kuwaiti oil reserves also intensified tensions in the region. The oil reserves of Kuwait (with a population of a mere 2 million next to Iraq's 25) were roughly equal to those of Iraq. Taken together Iraq and Kuwait sat on top of some 20 percent of the world's known oil reserves; as an article of comparison, Saudi Arabia holds 25 percent. (Humphreys, 105)
Furthermore Saddam argued that the Kuwaiti monarchy had slant drilled oil out of wells that Iraq considered to be within its disputed border with Kuwait. Given that at the time Iraq was not regarded as a pariah state, Saddam was able to complain about the slant drilling to the U.S. State Department. Although this had continued for years, Saddam now needed oil money to stem a looming economic crisis. Saddam still had an experienced and well-equipped army, which he used to influence regional affairs. He later ordered troops to the Iraq – Kuwait border.
U.S. Ambassador to Iraq April Catherine Glaspie meets Saddam for an emergency meeting.As Iraq-Kuwait relations rapidly deteriorated, Saddam was receiving conflicting information about how the U.S. would respond to the prospects of an invasion. For one, Washington had been taking measures to cultivate a constructive relationship with Iraq for roughly a decade. The Reagan administration gave Saddam roughly $40 billion in aid in the 1980s to fight Iran, nearly all of it on credit. The U.S. also sent billions of dollars to Saddam to keep him from forming a strong alliance with the Soviets.[28] Saddam's Iraq became "the third-largest recipient of US assistance"[29] .
U.S. ambassador to Iraq April Glaspie met with Saddam in an emergency meeting on July 25, where the Iraqi leader stated his intention to continue talks. U.S. officials attempted to maintain a conciliatory line with Iraq, indicating that while George H. W. Bush and James Baker did not want force used, they would not take any position on the Iraq – Kuwait boundary dispute and did not want to become involved. [30]Whatever Glapsie did or did not say in her interview with Saddam, the Iraqis assumed that the United States had invested too much in building relations with Iraq over the 1980s to sacrifice them for Kuwait. (Humphreys, 106) Later, Iraq and Kuwait then met for a final negotiation session, which failed. Saddam then sent his troops into Kuwait.
Although no reliable first-hand information on Saddam's appraisal of the situation exists, we can surmise from the prewar standpoint of the Iraqi leader and his interests and the conflicting prewar signals from Washington that the invasion was likely born out of Iraq's postwar debt problem and faltering attempts to gain the resources needed for postwar reconstruction, rebuild the devastated Iraqi economy, and stabilize the domestic political situation.[31]
This is something that many people don't look at anymore, and that was Saddam's reason to go into Kuwait in the first place. Many thought it was a simple land grab, but it was much more...and remember, we came to Kuwait's aid (eventually.)
This is different, more like something from the Spanish-American war or World War one. The Russian's were pre-positioned, chomping at the bit, ready for any little spark. Even if it was simply a Georgian border contingent trying to defend itself against separatist artillery fire.
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I think there will be a lot of bluster from all but nothing serious will happen. Well, until December. ;)
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time to send stinger missiles and anti-tank rockets to Georgia. You remember the Russian retreat from Afghanistan.
NATO and Rice are meeting on Tuesday to discusses the failure of russia to keep it's word on withdrawal and Ukraine has given full support to NATO. I think the russian people will suffer because of Putin.
this will be interesting.
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Yup, he gambled and lost. Now the population gets to suffer for his stupidity. Personally (and im not gonna start arguing why again) I feel that SO and Abkhazia or however its spelled should be under Russia. Most of the citizens there wants to anyway. Then russia can leave Georgia alone. They will leave when they are done anyway. The Russians knows it wont do them any good to occupy Georgia in the long run.
That is a policy of appeasement, give Russia what it wants and they will go home and not ask for more.
When the Soviet Union broke up they made Abkhazia and South Ossetia part of Georgia. This sparked a civil war of sorts that was never completely resolved.
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1st. The georgian Sakashvili should be deposed and sent to a war-criminal-tribunal like Saddam for using his military for killing thousands of his own people.
2nd. Ossetia and Abchasia should perform a democratic referendum - answering the questions if they want to remain in Georgia after georgian troops were used against their civilians or not. If not the question has to be answered if they want to become independent or if they want to join Russia (uniting N- and S-ossetia).
3rd. Russian troops which have saved the ossetians against the georgian troops should stay in teh area, guarding the ossetians against further georgian terror attacks - at least as long as the Saddam like Sakashvili is on power
4th. An instable country like Georgia with a Saddam-like insane president should not get the chance to enter the NATO. Just imagine the consequences of his actions, when he ordered thousands of civilians killed in the attack against the ossetian capital city, if this was made by a NATO country.
First, it was apparently an artillery duel that started the entire mess. As to who fired first, that we most likely will never know.
Second, Georgian troops didn't attack Abkhazia.
Third, please show where there were terrorist attacks by the Georgians.
Fourth, please show where the Georgian president ordered civilians killed. (Ordering a military attack is not the same as specifically ordering civilians killed.)
As far as the numbers of dead civilians go, I refer you to Dowdings post.
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I think the russian people will suffer because of Putin.
The Russians suffered because of the Czars, they suffered because of the communists, suffering because of Putin would just be more of the same.
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Is this a Devil's Advocate retort?
NO SIR.
i don't know where it is, or anything about it, except that russia thinks they're great for winnaing a "war" with them.
so i'm just trying to find out a bit, so i can give an opinion.
not being a wise assss.............yet :D
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except that russia thinks they're great for winnaing a "war" with them.
Well....Boroda certainly does. :uhoh
Although I am not sure what winnaing is......
:devil
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Re: What should be done about Russias occupation of Georgia?
I don't see anything happening....lots of tough talk and big words thrown around...and the "World Condemnation" of it. WHich means jack **** to Russia. The played this thing perfectly and under the watchful eyes of the world. I don't for a minute think it wasn't planned. To many troops and equipment to fast.
If however the world is loking for a BIG fight....then they could certainly get one here. If the U.S. is smart , IMHO , they'll keep thier mouths shut...ears and eyes wide open....and watch. Help in a limted fashion until they are needed for BIG things. Other than that tho....I hope this country keeps quiet for a while.
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Re: What should be done about Russias occupation of Georgia?
I don't see anything happening....lots of tough talk and big words thrown around...and the "World Condemnation" of it. WHich means jack **** to Russia. The played this thing perfectly and under the watchful eyes of the world. I don't for a minute think it wasn't planned. To many troops and equipment to fast.
If however the world is loking for a BIG fight....then they could certainly get one here. If the U.S. is smart , IMHO , they'll keep thier mouths shut...ears and eyes wide open....and watch. Help in a limted fashion until they are needed for BIG things. Other than that tho....I hope this country keeps quiet for a while.
...That's a notion I wish I could share, Red. Unfortunately, this kind of thing is bad either one way or the other in this situation.
If the U.S. steps' up it's military presence, or directly uses military force in this situation, It could spark a much, much larger war.
If it does nothing, It sends' a message that being an ally of the U.S. is simply being a chump. It could also make some countries' change allegiances, Or do something like suddenly pull all of their troops' out of Iraq or Afghanistan. All kind's of bad things diplomatically, At a time when world opinion is against us anyway, thanks' to Iraq. There's gonna have to be a careful response of some kind here.
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Well....Boroda certainly does. :uhoh
Although I am not sure what winnaing is......
:devil
uumm.....that's cap's monday from hell version of winning :rofl :rofl
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...That's a notion I wish I could share, Red. Unfortunately, this kind of thing is bad either one way or the other in this situation.
If it does nothing, It sends' a message that being an ally of the U.S. is simply being a chump. It could also make some countries' change allegiances, Or do something like suddenly pull all of their troops' out of Iraq or Afghanistan. All kind's of bad things diplomatically, At a time when world opinion is against us anyway, thanks' to Iraq. There's gonna have to be a careful response of some kind here.
i don't think that anyone will change allegiences if we do nothing.
remember......smart people fear the person that is a little too quiet.
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...That's a notion I wish I could share, Red. Unfortunately, this kind of thing is bad either one way or the other in this situation.
If the U.S. steps' up it's military presence, or directly uses military force in this situation, It could spark a much, much larger war.
If it does nothing, It sends' a message that being an ally of the U.S. is simply being a chump. It could also make some countries' change allegiances, Or do something like suddenly pull all of their troops' out of Iraq or Afghanistan. All kind's of bad things diplomatically, At a time when world opinion is against us anyway, thanks' to Iraq. There's gonna have to be a careful response of some kind here.
I argee with ramifications...Pretty much like what you said. Lots of things could be done quietly however. Aid...wepons sent to them. Diplomatic relations with countries and words of help to Georgia. The retorhic and war drum beating should be squelched tho. IMO....just keep things moving diplomatically...until you have to make a stand. I don't believe that this is a line drawn just yet.
I'm all for kicking someones tail...and doing it big time. But right now , with a military that is strecthed thin...economy that is suffering due to oil prices and gas prices....an election coimg that has this country pretty much split down the middle....A Congress that is as useless as tits on a boar hog....I'd just a sonn Bush and the cabinet....keep a tight lip.
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uumm.....that's cap's monday from hell version of winning :rofl :rofl
:lol
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I think Europe should step up to the plate and take care of their own backyard. They won't though, if anything has to be done it will be America doing it and getting criticized for it at the same time.
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I have given this some thought and I have finally come up with an answer.
The UN should draft GScholz, give him the rank of Major and put him in charge of a Dutch battalion on peacekeeping duty in Tiblisi.
There, all fixed. Nothing could possibly go wrong.
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So, what is your personal oppinion on what should be done about the Russian occupation of Georgia? Medved promised Sarkozy that the troops would be going home today. And there is no signs of this happening. Rather the opposite.
What is your personal oppinion about what should be done at this stage?
Ill start. Europe and the USA should start forming a Military coalition similar to the one that was formed for Gulf War 1. The US and Europe should start to send some kind of troops to the region.
CNN journalist asking an American mother that lost three sons.
"How did that hapend?"
"Well first died in Kosovo,second in Somalia,third in Iraq."
"How did your husband take it?"
"Very hard,he devoted his life to travel around the world to spread the word about Russian aggression"
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Sanctions. Absolutely. But ONLY if the sanctions pass the UN Security Council where Russia is a member with veto power. We must follow procedure.
Then, if it passes, allow 12 years for the sanctions to work.. give or take a few years.
If the sanctions don't work THEN Rollo the big guns. Put the measure before the UNSC again and vote on even tougher sanctions, to include crossing Russia off the Christmas card list of every other G8 nation.
Then we'll have peace in our time!
Why would UN want to exclude Russia from G8:)?.They have,oil,gas,diamonds,gold.What does USA have to offer?
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CNN journalist asking an Russian mother that lost four sons.
"How did that hapend?"
"Well first died in Poland, second in Czechoslovakia, third in Hungary, fourth in Afghanistan"
"How did your husband take it?"
"Very hard,he devoted his life to travel around the world to spread the word about American aggression"
:rofl
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Ill start. Europe and the USA should start forming a Military coalition similar to the one that was formed for Gulf War 1. The US and Europe should start to send some kind of troops to the region.
I disagree, im only a teenager and odnt understand the world like many adults may, but after seeing, from my eyes, how little progress we have made in the War on Terrorism, I feel the last thing the US needs is to be helping another country with thier headaches when we can barly maagae our own as a country. just my sight of it through the eyes of a boy my age
:noid
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not knowing too much about the area, or if or not it is very important to the US...........
if it's not an important area to the US, we should stay out.....at least appear to stay out. let europe handle their own problems for now. we're extended far enough with iraq, and afganastan.
if it is.........i don't know really.........
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I have given this some thought and I have finally come up with an answer.
The UN should draft GScholz, give him the rank of Major and put him in charge of a Dutch battalion on peacekeeping duty in Tiblisi.
There, all fixed. Nothing could possibly go wrong.
Good one Toad! :lol
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not knowing too much about the area, or if or not it is very important to the US...........
if it's not an important area to the US, we should stay out.....at least appear to stay out. let europe handle their own problems for now. we're extended far enough with iraq, and afganastan.
if it is.........i don't know really.........
I disagree, im only a teenager and odnt understand the world like many adults may, but after seeing, from my eyes, how little progress we have made in the War on Terrorism, I feel the last thing the US needs is to be helping another country with thier headaches when we can barly maagae our own as a country. just my sight of it through the eyes of a boy my age
CAP, Uberslet...I'd probably think the same way myself...Hell, I still think that Iraq is a Massive mistake (and this thing in Georgia right now is one of the reasons) But you guys' do know, that the Georgians' were the 3rd largest contributor of troops' to our war in Iraq?
Are we going to turn our back on an allied nation that contributed 2,000 of their sons and daughters' to OUR cause???
I'll tell you this right now. If we let Georgia fall, Not only will the Euros' be vindicated in their anti-U.S. stances, but they could become our enemies' outright. Why? Because if the U.S. isn't gonna come to their aid because the big, bad, ol' Russia stood us down like a bunch of punk squeakes when Georgia was really in need, Then what precedent do we set for helping them, as well?
And don't forget, if Georgia falls, the Russian's get what amounts to total control of Europe's oil and gas supply. The Euro's will be disenchanted with us, and they will be put in the position of having to accomodate any demands' from Russia. That put's the likelyhood of them going with Russia on quite a few issues'. Only at this time, we have an honest-to-god chance to nip things' in the bud right now, If we'd simply act.
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CAP, Uberslet...I'd probably think the same way myself...Hell, I still think that Iraq is a Massive mistake (and this thing in Georgia right now is one of the reasons) But you guys' do know, that the Georgians' were the 3rd largest contributor of troops' to our war in Iraq?
Are we going to turn our back on an allied nation that contributed 2,000 of their sons and daughters' to OUR cause???
I'll tell you this right now. If we let Georgia fall, Not only will the Euros' be vindicated in their anti-U.S. stances, but they could become our enemies' outright. Why? Because if the U.S. isn't gonna come to their aid because the big, bad, ol' Russia stood us down like a bunch of punk wenches when Georgia was really in need, Then what precedent do we set for helping them, as well?
And don't forget, if Georgia falls, the Russian's get what amounts to total control of Europe's oil and gas supply. The Euro's will be disenchanted with us, and they will be put in the position of having to accomodate any demands' from Russia. That put's the likelyhood of them going with Russia on quite a few issues'. Only at this time, we have an honest-to-god chance to nip things' in the bud right now, If we'd simply act.
well, i had no clue about this. i had asked earlier if or how important this could be to us. i also didn;t know they heped us in iraq......
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russia holds enough of uncle sam's war debt rendering the neocons to placard waving at best... of course it was the necon's quest for dollar socialism in iraq that enabled russia to acquire all that debt.... the irony of it all. :D
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russia holds enough of uncle sam's war debt rendering the neocons to placard waving at best... of course it was the necon's quest for dollar socialism in iraq that enabled russia to acquire all that debt.... the irony of it all. :D
I heard that China actually holds' most of that Debt; at least, that's what i've heard.
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I heard that China actually holds' most of that Debt; at least, that's what i've heard.
Same, in fact, I haven't heard of Russia holding any of the debt. They might, I just haven't heard of it.
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Tell Putin then, if he ever hopes' to see another dime of U.S. money, he'll boogey north of Ossetia as of immediately.
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I feel it is too late to save Georgia, it would require a direct confrontation which no one is really willing (the American people as a whole, included) to do.
What I see happening is they'll allow portions of Georgia to go to Russia while both Georgia (what is left of it) and Ukraine both will be accepted into NATO.
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I feel it is too late to save Georgia, it would require a direct confrontation which no one is really willing (the American people as a whole, included) to do.
What I see happening is they'll allow portions of Georgia to go to Russia while both Georgia (what is left of it) and Ukraine both will be accepted into NATO.
This might be what actually happens, in truth. I hate to see it end that way myself, for it will be a heavy blow to the U.S. diplomatically. Not as bad as a total takeover, but close.
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You should do nothing.
Seriously.
These are not the droids you are looking for.
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You should do nothing.
Seriously.
These are not the droids you are looking for.
Wow.
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Hard negotiation and strong NATO leadership.
1. Fastrack Ukraine and Georgia into NATO. Start negotiations for ABM basing and troop basing, naval facilities, port calls, etc in Ukraine and Georgia. Strong fast action to complete the unification of eastern Europe and NATO.
2. Give Russia simple choice... Russia withdraws her forces from Georgia and accepts multinational peacekeepers in disputed areas or Russia is outta the G8, outta the WTO and risks also loosing it's consulates and embassies in the US. Hard line.. give 'em a timetable. No 'negotiating'.. just 'this is what you've done, this is what we will do if you stay beyond deadline. Similar demand should come from France and Germany under NATO header.
3. Press Turkey HARD for expanded Naval and Air Black Sea access via NATO angle... the Montreaux Convention needs to be replaced with a Treaty that accommodates NATO... necessary because virtually every nation on the Black Sea is NATO.. except Russia. Also clear airspace (overfly Turkey) for active air assets and resupply from US bases in Turkey and Iraq... up to and including combat flights if necessary.
The Bear can be easily stopped NOW. wait 10 years... unchecked, Russia WILL re-absorb at a minimum eastern Europe to the cold war lines.
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Wow.
Yeah Frode, That's what i thought too.
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#1 will happen
#2 will never happen, Europe is too dependent on Russia and instead will allow the US to look like the bad guy. There is absolutely no chance of individual NATO countries standing up against Russia politically.
#3 Turkey has always played both sides, do you think they'll do any different now? More so now that they see how how Georgia was abandoned to an aggressor.
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Tell Putin then, if he ever hopes' to see another dime of U.S. money, he'll boogey north of Ossetia as of immediately.
russia is now a creditor nation due to the neoclown's and their imperial follies in iraq... if the russians don't buy up some of uncle sam's war debt about 100 billion in securities i think... uncle sam would have to <gasp> raise taxes... it's rather comical. :rofl
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The only ray of sunshine that I can see is that the world is a network of multi-national companies now with multi-national CEOs only really concerned with their bottom line. It's not like the 1940s where each nation was pretty much self-sufficient in comparison. Now everything is inextricably linked - and whether you're a Russian oil tycoon or an Arab sheikh, war is destabiling and profit destroying. And generally it is bad business to make war on your customer base. Russia is controlled by energy billionaires these days - there is no politburo any longer. That difference should not be ignored.
That's been my perspective since the start of the first rumors of "something big" happening out of this affair.. I don't know how even Russia could see anything good, considering that. The only people in the world whose motive would trump that are terrorists, parasites.
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Refresh my memory. When was the last time (before this Russian anomaly) a UN peacekeeping force jumped off immediately and took the combat to the enemy?
East Timor
#3 Turkey has always played both sides, do you think they'll do any different now? More so now that they see how how Georgia was abandoned to an aggressor.
Turkey always does whats best for Turkey - and they also have a Kurdish independance problem which they routinely do their best in suppressing, so they would hardly like the idea of breakaway areas being given help from outside powers. Turkey will play ball because its in their best interests to do so.
Tronsky
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kick out some of the slackers from nato and invite the russians into it..problem solved.
the writing has been on the wall for a while now; re-afghanistan and the reluctance of some euro nato members pre- invasion to accept georgia into nato for fear of provoking putin- nato with the exception of the efforts of a few member states has become an impotent overblown outfit reminiscent of the un, and putin has just rammed that home in georgia.
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East Timor
Tronsky
Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't it take about 3 weeks after the post-election riots started to get ~3000 UN Peacekeepers into Timor?
That would seem to reinforce the idea that the Russians had been planning this for quite a while. You don't alert, equip and move 10K troops in a day. Then there's that pesky fig leaf of handing out the passports.
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It would seem there is a huge split within NATO given the weak response they have just released following their emergency summit.
"Not business as usual with Russia."
"No specific cooperative programs have been axed."
Sounds like no common ground could be found within NATO itself.
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Turkey will never allow the possibility to come in a direct confrontation with Russia. Such a possibility is against its own diplomatic and geopolitical doctrine. Ankara has always played a twofold game for eg in WWII.
At the same time many Europeans have a very different aspect on the Georgia issue. First the Georgians attack in South Osetia, and then the Russians retaliate. I think that was exactly the case in Kosovo or am I wrong? The 700.000 osetians which btw are an ancient tribe derives from Scythes having nothing in common with Georgians or Russians. They want to unite Notrh Osetia and South Osetia under a certain independence level, from Georgia. Just like Albanians in Kosovo.
I think this is their own privilege.
Btw smb stop this guy who start the attack in South Osetia and killed about 2000 Osetian civilians from give any more interviews. Smb tell him the benefits of silence.
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Btw smb stop this guy who start the attack in South Osetia and killed about 2000 Osetian civilians from give any more interviews. Smb tell him the benefits of silence.
Prove the 2000 deaths. Russia is preventing the Red Cross from getting into South Ossetia. There is no independent corroboration.
BTW, the population of South Ossetia is only 70,000.
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I don’t feel the need to prove any. Tskhinvali is a devastated city in case you don’t know it. That alone is enough for me. I’m talking about the whole Osetian population which is about 700.000 people, of which 100.000 resides in South Osetia.
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I don’t feel the need to prove any. Tskhinvali is a devastated city in case you don’t know it.
You may not feel a need to provide proof, but in its absence, your point is baseless speculation.
How do you know Tskhinvali is a 'devastated city'? You claim 2000 dead. Those killed in these things are usually the tip of an ice-burg - I'd expect 10,000 injured, maybe 3000 severely if 2000 were dead. It might be useful in such circumstances to let the Red Cross or other independent NGOs in to help.
And would you believe it... Russia bars the Red Cross from entering South Ossetia.
Something smells fishy.
Meanwhile, the only independent information to emerge from South Ossetia shows only 44 deaths at the main hospital in Tskhinvali.
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Dammit, Dowding... it is absolutely CRUEL the way you torture these guys.
Facts? The facts are what they say they are. Just ask Boroda.
They are so delusional that they'd be funny except that their delusions have killed millions.
They way they lie to themselves over Katyn pretty well says it all.
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And would you believe it... Russia bars the Red Cross from entering South Ossetia.
Something smells fishy.
I also saw on fox news yesterday that the russian military had blocked the east/west road deep in georgian territory. As reporters were making there way down the road, the russian soldiers demanded russian press papers. The reporter said he left, but wanted to say, this is the country of georgia.
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You may not feel a need to provide proof, but in its absence, your point is baseless speculation.
How do you know Tskhinvali is a 'devastated city'? You claim 2000 dead. Those killed in these things are usually the tip of an ice-burg - I'd expect 10,000 injured, maybe 3000 severely if 2000 were dead. It might be useful in such circumstances to let the Red Cross or other independent NGOs in to help.
And would you believe it... Russia bars the Red Cross from entering South Ossetia.
Something smells fishy.
Meanwhile, the only independent information to emerge from South Ossetia shows only 44 deaths at the main hospital in Tskhinvali.
How do I know Tskhinvali is a 'devastated city'? I saw it on the news in a Greek TV channel (that’s where im from btw) from a correspondent there. Secondly a friend of mine who she is Osetian (her parents live in North Osetia) and work in Athens she told me about it. She told me also that they don’t want Georgian rule and I think that is their own right. Like I said is just like the Albanians issue in Kosovo the ones that you supported and bombed Serbia for. Why now u deny the will of the Osetian people for self-determination while their rights are violated by paramilitary Georgian forces? Trust me and you will find more independed info about civil casualties in the process. Just be patient.
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Oh, I'll be patient PanosGR. But how long shall I wait? A week, a month, a year?
Given there were 2000 people dead in Tskhinvali, just where are the pictures on Russian TV of all the injured that would go with them? Where are the pictures of overwhelmed hospitals with wounded lying in the street? The whole of South Ossetia has the infrastructure to support 100,000 people. Let's say 50,000 live in Tskhinvali. That's a small town where I live - bloody hell, my home town without a dedicated hospital has 60,000 people resident. The emergency services of South Ossetia would be overwhelmed.
Either the Russian media is slow at making the most of what sounds like a 'picture postcard massacre'... or there was no massacre.
If 2000 people had died on 7 August, and the proof was televised the world over - the reaction from everyone would have been horror and disgust. Ironically, it would have been like the market-day massacre in Bosnia back in 1992ish - when Serbian artillery killed 60 people doing their shopping. NATO stepped in and made sure those artillery pieces never fired again.
Instead, we have this amateurish game of smoke and mirrors perpetrated by a Russian leadership hell bent on some kind of territorial gain.
Yes, I'll wait PanosGR. The international community will wait. Meanwhile, a piece of Eastern Europe looks like it will be assimilated by the Russians.
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How do I know Tskhinvali is a 'devastated city'? I saw it on the news in a Greek TV channel (that’s where im from btw) from a correspondent there. Secondly a friend of mine who she is Osetian (her parents live in North Osetia) and work in Athens she told me about it. She told me also that they don’t want Georgian rule and I think that is their own right. Like I said is just like the Albanians issue in Kosovo the ones that you supported and bombed Serbia for. Why now u deny the will of the Osetian people for self-determination while their rights are violated by paramilitary Georgian forces? Trust me and you will find more independed info about civil casualties in the process. Just be patient.
Panoz...Just look at U.S. news' photos of Tskhinvali. You see a few destroyed buildings, but that city is nowhere near destroyed. If you want destroyed, Google Grozny.
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first day reports showed 2000 dead in south ossieta, mostly Russian civilians i remember reading it on some wire and hearing it on a radio broadcast,,, in Texas!
most of the death's were caused by the Russians is what the report said.
probably why they are not reporting it any more, i havent heard a word about it since that first day.
funny thing i have noticed over the years following stuff like this, is that first reports that don't ever get anymore play are usually correct, if someone is trying too hide those! the us would not want that info released, without proof that the Russians were responsible,, the Russians would not want that info too get out, because then they might be found to be responsible, without a way to blame the Georgians the Russians will not tell anyone! an easy way to lay blame would be too go on Greek TV with the story, this gives all sides time to hide or re interpret what really happened without anyone being able to find out the true facts of the matter, then it all gets lost or tied up in some committee at the U.N. until we all just forget about it!
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Maybe "the world" should kick both the Russians and Georgians out of the 2008 Olympic Games and cancel their medals.... for breaking the Olympic Truce.
"Every four years, for sixteen days, all warring sides compete peacefully side by side.
Every four years, for sixteen days, people remember that there are some ideals which allow them to set down their weapons and compete on equal terms for an olive wreath and for the honor of participating in a sport."
.. but nah, that would be too harsh, right? :rolleyes:
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Why are the Russian's taking prisoners' at this stage?
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080819/ap_on_re_eu/georgia_russia (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080819/ap_on_re_eu/georgia_russia)
I fear for those men; They likely face some kind of kangaroo-court 'war crimes' tribunal. I hope that they can be set free some how.
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So, what is your personal oppinion on what should be done about the Russian occupation of Georgia? ...
My personal opinion is that the US should vacate Iraq within 30 days. That way, we won't look like such gd hypocites when we go telling Russia 'you can't just invade other countries'.
In reality, we'll have to suffer through a lot of hot-air b.s. and empty threats about kicking Russia out of various treehouse clubs.
The US isn't going to do a damn thing of real consequence about it.
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My personal opinion is that the US should vacate Iraq within 30 days. That way, we won't look like such gd hypocites when we go telling Russia 'you can't just invade other countries'.
In reality, we'll have to suffer through a lot of hot-air b.s. and empty threats about kicking Russia out of various treehouse clubs.
The US isn't going to do a damn thing of real consequence about it.
You know, In a sense, I agree with you on that first part. The Iraqi's themselves say they are ready for us to leave. And, it's looking like we really need the troops' elsewhere now. However...as far as looking like hypocrites, as bad as the reasons' for invading Iraq were, I don't think it would be entirely hypocritical to tell Russia to get out. There's actually a lot more at stake in Georgia.
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I try not to get into these discussions on this board -- I enjoy reading these heavy discussions, but I am not savvy enough nor as knowledgable as most and I am confident would end up with my prettythang handed to me :D
I see some extremism on both sides and try to get myself to the middle ground. I'm trying to remember what the Coalition did in Gulf War Part 1; did we simply kick Iraq out of Kuwait or did we cross troops into Iraq and kick them all the way back to Baghdad. Simple folks like me try to understand this stuff and sometimes it makes my head hurt. I don't like it when I'm hypocritcal because it makes me feel like I have no leg to stand on; as long as we can justify our position without the extremism of both sides, then I'm good with it all.
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There's that one tiny little thing that hasn't been truly figured out yet.
There was a shootout between SO separatists and the Georgians on Aug 1 & 2. This fighting continued off and on everyday up through August 6. There was arty involved on Aug 7 as fighting continued and Georgian mech units moving to the SO border. On the 8th, Georgia went into SO to put down what it saw as a rebellion by separatists. Almost immediately Russian forces countered with, from news reports, nearly division strength.
So who actually started this? It's clear the SO separtists and Georgians were shooting at each other from Aug 1 right up until Aug 8.
Who started it?
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Well In GW 1 we went into Iraq and kicked them all the way back to Baghdad. I didn't see Kuwait until 2 days after the cease fire. I was in Iraq for the entire thing.
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Check this out. Not only not leaving Georgia, but they are now taking prisoners and confiscating US military hardware.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,405963,00.html
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Russia is begging to be spanked. We may have to oblige them.
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If we do have to go to war with Russia it should not be a half hearted attempt. They should be defeated so thoroughly that they think about war much like the Germans and Japanese have since WWII.
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If we do have to go to war with Russia it should not be a half hearted attempt. They should be defeated so thoroughly that they think about war much like the Germans and Japanese have since WWII.
It should've been done 5 years ago. But it'll happen sooner or later so maybe you should give it a go.
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Stop doing business with them. They'll be back to dreaming of owning Ladas and wiping their tulips with leaves just like the glorious soviet economy of the 80s in no time. They wield the threat of denying russian gas and oil, but once they shoot that arrow it's gone. Russia doesn't make anything, like most poor countries most of their merchandise is made by Daewoo. Would be a simple matter of asking South Korea to stop selling to an agressive ally of North Korea. Most likely Daewoo took a profit loss anyway to flood the market and purge competition.
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It should've been done 5 years ago. But it'll happen sooner or later so maybe you should give it a go.
the last thing planet earth needs is a war beetween Russia and the US. I can say with complete certainty that the results of such a war will be catastrophic for both the Russian people and the American people, most likely the Europeans and UK islanders will suffer terribly as well. It is no good.
I rather imagine we will draw lines around former bloc countries that are now independant and declare that if they are in any way invaded or attacked by Russia
that a state of war would then exist between Russia and the US. But I would suggest getting skippy with it.
Also, need to re-energize our strategic posture and deploy against potential first launch of Russian nuclear rockets. Re-establish territorial air land and sea defenses.
Prepare for war.
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They want to unite Notrh Osetia and South Osetia under a certain independence level, from Georgia.
You are forgetting the fact that Georgia offered autonomy to South Ossetia and they refused.
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Tskhinvali is a devastated city in case you don’t know it.
Really? Have you personally seen the city? I've seen pictures. Some damaged buildings for sure, but the city is mostly intact. All the buildings in the pictures I saw were still standing as well. No evidence of a massive artillery barrage on the city either.
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There's that one tiny little thing that hasn't been truly figured out yet.
There was a shootout between SO separatists and the Georgians on Aug 1 & 2. This fighting continued off and on everyday up through August 6. There was arty involved on Aug 7 as fighting continued and Georgian mech units moving to the SO border. On the 8th, Georgia went into SO to put down what it saw as a rebellion by separatists. Almost immediately Russian forces countered with, from news reports, nearly division strength.
So who actually started this? It's clear the SO separtists and Georgians were shooting at each other from Aug 1 right up until Aug 8.
Who started it?
That is the million dollar question. Although some on this board, specifically the Russian apologists insist on thinking the Georgians started it simply because Georgian forces moved into South Ossetia. Those same apologists also refuse to recognize the fact that South Ossetia is still technically, Georgian territory and not a separate nation.
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PanosGR here's a link that Boroda posted to prove Tskhinvali was destroyed. The photos are apparently taken by a war photographer with the *peacekeepers*. According to Boroda that is. :uhoh
http://voinodel.livejournal.com/20990.html
Hardly a destroyed city by any means.
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copy, i look to it thnx
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There's that one tiny little thing that hasn't been truly figured out yet.
There was a shootout between SO separatists and the Georgians on Aug 1 & 2. This fighting continued off and on everyday up through August 6. There was arty involved on Aug 7 as fighting continued and Georgian mech units moving to the SO border. On the 8th, Georgia went into SO to put down what it saw as a rebellion by separatists. Almost immediately Russian forces countered with, from news reports, nearly division strength.
So who actually started this? It's clear the SO separtists and Georgians were shooting at each other from Aug 1 right up until Aug 8.
Who started it?
There's been something going around in my head about this that makes more sense every time I puzzle it together. One thing was the apparent pre-positioning of the Russian forces; another was the large stocks of arms and material that they captured at bases like Senaki, inside Georgia. Now, if this was an intentional invasion on Georgia's part, then how come they weren't more mobilized? Why did they still have a large amount of their armor off of the fronlines, some of it still in depot's? There shouldn't have been anything to capture, if they were mobilized for an invasion the way that the Russians' were.
Even if the Georgian's crossed the frontier first, I'm thinking that it was a small force after the Ossetian' guns. To me that is becoming more and more plausible. I wonder if anyone from that force is still alive...?
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There's been something going around in my head about this that makes more sense every time I puzzle it together. One thing was the apparent pre-positioning of the Russian forces; another was the large stocks of arms and material that they captured at bases like Senaki, inside Georgia. Now, if this was an intentional invasion on Georgia's part, then how come they weren't more mobilized? Why did they still have a large amount of their armor off of the fronlines, some of it still in depot's? There shouldn't have been anything to capture, if they were mobilized for an invasion the way that the Russians' were.
Even if the Georgian's crossed the frontier first, I'm thinking that it was a small force after the Ossetian' guns. To me that is becoming more and more plausible. I wonder if anyone from that force is still alive...?
To me it is looking more and more like Russia intended this outcome from the start. Units positioned and ready to move, passports handed out, all they needed was the excuse.
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The whole gist of my point is, that the Georgians' probably didn't go on any kind of a serious offensive. I don't see how they could have. They would have had a lot more troops' up in the North, and there would have been a lot more actual fighting. From having watched the whole thing, it looked to me like most of Georgia's military was actually in the south, where the U.S. was training them.
You know, that's probably one of the areas' in the world that would be hard for the U.S. to shift forces' to quickly in case of a conflict like this. I mean, there's a lot of neutral airspace restrictions, the Black Sea is something that main units' of the U.S. Navy have never operated in, The Russians' have it covered with their own Navy and airforce, etc. And, with most of our available military deployed between Iraq and Afghanistan, we don't really have anything left over for this sort of conflict.
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The whole gist of my point is, that the Georgians' probably didn't go on any kind of a serious offensive. I don't see how they could have. They would have had a lot more troops' up in the North, and there would have been a lot more actual fighting. From having watched the whole thing, it looked to me like most of Georgia's military was actually in the south, where the U.S. was training them.
You know, that's probably one of the areas' in the world that would be hard for the U.S. to shift forces' to quickly in case of a conflict like this. I mean, there's a lot of neutral airspace restrictions, the Black Sea is something that main units' of the U.S. Navy have never operated in, The Russians' have it covered with their own Navy and airforce, etc. And, with most of our available military deployed between Iraq and Afghanistan, we don't really have anything left over for this sort of conflict.
Most of our available military is not deployed in Iraq and Afghanistan. Our navy can deploy to the area in significant force in little time. We still have substantial ground and air forces in Europe. Our troops are well trained and battle hardened. Iraq is ready to stand on it's own and letting the Taliban temporarily retake Afghanistan might just make it that much easier to hit them a lot harder later.
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Russia rejects the Peace resolution brought forward by France in the UN.
It was expected tough.
France later tabled a US-backed draft resolution at the UN Security Council, demanding full compliance with the ceasefire and calling on Moscow to withdraw its forces to the positions held before the conflict.
Russia's UN ambassador, Vitaly Churkin, rejected the text. He objected to language on Georgia's territorial integrity, saying South Ossetia and Abkhazia did not want to be part of Georgia.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7571104.stm
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Yes - but I think its a fact that the president of a country ordered his military to attack a city and many civilians were killed. Thats very much like Saddam and his war against the iraqi kurds.
I would not accept a mad man like Saddam/Sakashvili to be my president if he ordered to attack and kill my people - regardless if his troops killed 40, 400 or 4000 civilians.
And who knows how many ossetians would have been massacred if the russians have not reacted so quickly - kicking out the georgians from the ossetian territory?
Did you completely miss the fact that we invited Russia to help control Saddam? They do brainwash you don't they?
You may also want to note, our soldiers don't mask their face to hide their identity. It seems Russian soldiers taken to stealing vehicles , do.
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We need to have some type of token military confrontation with Russia. Nothing else is going to make them leave. Their weakness is their shadow government is made up of criminals and cowards that aren't very bright.
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We need to have some type of token military confrontation with Russia. Nothing else is going to make them leave. Their weakness is their shadow government is made up of criminals and cowards that aren't very bright.
I don't think that I'd say that they aren't very bright-They have so far outmanuevered this administration.
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Russia rejects the Peace resolution brought forward by France in the UN.
It was expected tough.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7571104.stm
I am shocked, SHOCKED I tell you! I suppose this means the Russians will not vote to have sanctions imposed against themselves?
What is the world coming to?
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I don't think that I'd say that they aren't very bright-They have so far outmanuevered this administration.
They've out manuvered the world.
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I don't think that I'd say that they aren't very bright-They have so far outmanuevered this administration.
How do you figure that?
They outmaneuvered this administration by giving away Russian passports to anyone with a heartbeat, pre-positioned a mech division in SO, had SO separatists shoot at Georgians until the Georgians came to put a stop to it and then launched a division on an invasion?
Where exactly in that chain of events was this admin outmanuevered?
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Iraq is ready to stand on it's own and letting the Taliban temporarily retake Afghanistan might just make it that much easier to hit them a lot harder later.
What? :O Can't believe this. Many men and woman died to get where we are and the suggestion of leaving and letting the Taliban have a victory however small is :furious
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He objected to language on Georgia's territorial integrity, saying South Ossetia and Abkhazia did not want to be part of Georgia.
Funny how they object now but when the Soviet Union broke up Russia set the boundaries for Georgia and left South Ossetia and Abkhazia as part of Georgia.
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had SO separatists shoot at Georgians until the Georgians came to put a stop to it
I suspect that is exactly what happened.
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They've out manuvered the world.
No, they've intimidated a gelded world. What they're doing is so simplistic a bullied 13 year old could see it. If you want perspective on maneuvering, listen to Gary Kasparov's take on Russia's tactics. He understands maneuvering. Russian thugs understand intimidation. HUGE difference. Russia will never co-exist. They need to be beaten down- PERIOD. They need to be B-slapped plain and simple. They are thugs ( i.e., cowards, opportunists, disloyal, basically stupid, and will not go the distance to WORK for a prize). We need to win a token military altercation with them. It will not be WW3. They are too cowardly for that.
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What? :O Can't believe this. Many men and woman died to get where we are and the suggestion of leaving and letting the Taliban have a victory however small is :furious
Weak.
A feint to draw the enemy into the open is time tested.
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What? Our whimpering Congress stand up to the likes of Putin? What have you been smoking? After a 13 second stare down they would claim defeat and switch straight to appeasement.
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How do you figure that?
They outmaneuvered this administration by giving away Russian passports to anyone with a heartbeat, pre-positioned a mech division in SO, had SO separatists shoot at Georgians until the Georgians came to put a stop to it and then launched a division on an invasion?
Where exactly in that chain of events was this admin outmanuevered?
IMHO, Toad...Putin simply waited until he had Bush in a situation that he couldn't respond to. AKIron's figures' about our military's deployment count the total manpower available to all the services', and all of the branches. It doesn't list our combatant totals, of which I believe all of our troops' that are free to act are commited to the middle east. We could respond with a CVBG, but I don't think anyone in the Navy or the Pentagon would want to risk one in the Black Sea-It's just too confined, and the Russian's are used to operating there. We could use airpower, but unless we could use airfields' in the region, we would have a hard time doing that.
On the diplomatic end, the Europeans' are gonna sit on the fence, IMHO. I don't think even Sarkozy from France will do much more than what he already has. I don't see the German's as acting very aggressively either. So that leaves' our allies' out.
The biggest win in this whole thing though, is that Putin wins' a big propaganda victory. He invaded an ally nation of the U.S., did whatever he wanted to, and left, simply having to wither some harsh words' from Washington. It makes' us look like a bunch of Hypocrites; we scream and yell for them to come and help us take over Iraq, and fight in Afghanistan. They do, but when it comes' time to help them...? Well, at least we could give them a ride back home.
I have a bad feeling that a lot of the nations' that looked to the U.S. to help them in a time of need, might be thinking of their other options. Like, going to the other big boys (Russia or China) when they get in a bind. We could have just handed the Russians' a bigger victory than we thought.
For what it's worth, Toad...The people in the White house, If they have to admit a defeat to themselves, so that they can learn from it and catch it before it happens' next time, they really need to. Honestly, this should never have gotten as far out of hand as it did.
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this should never have gotten as far out of hand as it did.
Short of already having combat troops on the ground, how does one prevent this sort of thing?
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Weak.
A feint to draw the enemy into the open is time tested.
Problem with letting the taliban have any ground is that it becomes propaganda against us. They will tell others that they have won victory and they are pushing us back. Just today 10 French soldiers gave their lives for Afghanastans freedom.
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Short of already having combat troops on the ground, how does one prevent this sort of thing?
Well...There might have been an intelligence failure. However, we knew the soviets' had a Motor-rifle division in the area. IMO, since we had some trainers there anyway, we probably should have tried to sneak in a Regimental-sized unit of our own to help "train" a month or two ago. That mighta helped stymie the Russians' in any kind of incursion, or at least kept them on their side of the border (for fear of engaging U.S. troops directly.)
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Well...There might have been an intelligence failure. However, we knew the soviets' had a Motor-rifle division in the area. IMO, since we had some trainers there anyway, we probably should have tried to sneak in a Regimental-sized unit of our own to help "train" a month or two ago. That mighta helped stymie the Russians' in any kind of incursion, or at least kept them on their side of the border (for fear of engaging U.S. troops directly.)
Putting an armored brigade in country just might have done the trick. Of course, Russia would have been screaming bloody murder over us putting a brigade in their back yard.
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Putting an armored brigade in country just might have done the trick. Of course, Russia would have been screaming bloody murder over us putting a brigade in their back yard.
I sure that the most Americans would feel the same as if Russia wanted to put a large number of troops in say.... Cuba
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I sure that the most Americans would feel the same as if Russia wanted to put a large number of troops in say.... Cuba
Except.....troops from Cuba can't just walk to Florida. :D
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HEY BTW! you old SOD!
When are you coming back to terrorize me with that Dora?
I miss ya Bro!
(man, you gave me nightmares in AW LOL)
RTR
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Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't it take about 3 weeks after the post-election riots started to get ~3000 UN Peacekeepers into Timor?
That would seem to reinforce the idea that the Russians had been planning this for quite a while. You don't alert, equip and move 10K troops in a day. Then there's that pesky fig leaf of handing out the passports.
About 3 weeks is right, with the Indonesians relenting after 8 days, and the UN SC resolution 11 days after independance but the main force was landing within 5 days of the UN SC resolution, with SAS and commandos within 3 days (there were credible reports that Australian/NZ SAS troops were operating before the UN SC resolution). Australian and New Zealand battalions were preparing for operations just after trouble started (after the declaration of independance), so your assertion that the Russians had been planning this for sometime is probably highly accurate.
Tronsky
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so your assertion that the Russians had been planning this for sometime is probably highly accurate.
Tronsky
Thank you. That's the point.
All the Russian BS from Boroda and all the Russian support from the blinded Euros seems to conveniently ignore that point.
I believe it is highly likely that this was planned long in advance and the SO "separatist" inititated sniper battles of 1 Aug that escalated into Georgian intervention on 8 August were part of that plan. Just like the passports.
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All the Russian BS from Boroda and all the Russian support from the blinded Euros seems to conveniently ignore that point.
Indeed, they aren't looking at the whole picture, they are only looking at the intervention by Georgia. To analyze a situation you need to look at all of the information leading up to the situation being looked at.
I believe it is highly likely that this was planned long in advance and the SO "separatist" inititated sniper battles of 1 Aug that escalated into Georgian intervention on 8 August were part of that plan. Just like the passports.
I'm in agreement with that based on everything we know right now.
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Word is out that the Russians are handing out Russian passports to a minority group in Ukraine.
In the past week Ukrainian politicians have claimed that Russia has been doling out passports to residents of the Crimea, which has strong allegiances to Moscow, raising fears about the Kremlin's intentions in the region.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/georgia/2580734/Russian-president-Dmitry-Medvedev-vows-further-retribution-against-Georgia.html
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Word is out that the Russians are handing out Russian passports to a minority group in Ukraine.
Looks like the Ukraine is next. :rolleyes:
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I'd suggest we begin handing out US passports to Russian citizens but we've been doing that since '91 and have plenty of them living here. Maybe we should send them back to claim russia as the 51st state?
<edit>
or 58th state if you ask Obama ;)
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HEY BTW! you old SOD!
When are you coming back to terrorize me with that Dora?
I miss ya Bro!
(man, you gave me nightmares in AW LOL)
RTR
I miss those late night flights! I used to enjoy the cat and mouse ( I da mouse!) at 40k:)
Since I quit smoking, I doubt I'd have the patience to climb that high, and lets face it, I suck under 40k or co-alt :P
I'm going to come back. I've finished the house so I've a lot more time now. Who was the other guy that used to fly late night - MT? (not the midnight target here - or maybe it is?)
You doing ok RTR?
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Problem with letting the taliban have any ground is that it becomes propaganda against us. They will tell others that they have won victory and they are pushing us back. Just today 10 French soldiers gave their lives for Afghanastans freedom.
Perhaps after we kick Russia's bellybutton the Taliban might be a bit more compliant. I'm betting Iran will.
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Putting an armored brigade in country just might have done the trick. Of course, Russia would have been screaming bloody murder over us putting a brigade in their back yard.
I wish we had done something like that. But of course, "if we had" doesn't count for beans' now. We have to measure our response as to what we've gotta do at this moment. The Russians' still won't honor the pullbacks' mentioned in the peace treaty.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080820/ap_on_re_eu/georgia_russia (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080820/ap_on_re_eu/georgia_russia)
This situation's still kinda tense, with the Russian Stalling. I mean, How far into Georgia have they gone? 70 miles? The Motor-Rifle elements' deployed in Georgia should be able to do that more or less in a day.
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(http://www.theweekdaily.com/img/dir_13/the_week_6973_29.jpg)
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The fact is that our military is thin right now and Russia knows it. We can't do squat militarily to Russia right now with our current strategic situation in the middle east and asia, short of merely bombing them and that alone might do more harm than good.
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Perhaps after we kick Russia's bellybutton the Taliban might be a bit more compliant. I'm betting Iran will.
Good point there, AKIron-Russian relations' with the Iranians, and helping them with their Nuclear program, are at stake here too. The White House want's Russia's help on curbing Iranian Nuclear ambitions, but they might not play ball with this situation in Georgia, and the new missile deals' signed in Poland and the Ukraine. This might be the beginning of a larger conflict.
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The fact is that our military is thin right now and Russia knows it. We can't do squat militarily to Russia right now with our current strategic situation in the middle east and asia, short of merely bombing them and that alone might do more harm than good.
The Georgians' got routed because of a lack of air cover-If we could have won Air superiority for them, this whole thing could have had a different outcome.
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Free Passports: The New Russian Excuse For Invasion.
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This guy lays it out pretty well.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20080820.wwcogeorgia20/BNStory/International/home
The party's over for Europe: The bear is back
If Ukraine is allowed to enter NATO, all other members must be ready to send their troops to defend its borders - an outlandish notion for most of them. Would German troops go back to the Ukrainian front? Would the Italians? Or the British, for that matter? Yet, to refuse Ukraine's admission now would surely hand it over to Russian hegemony.
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This guy lays it out pretty well.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20080820.wwcogeorgia20/BNStory/International/home
The party's over for Europe: The bear is back
That's what it seems' to be. Especially when you consider the way that Putin managed to sidestep his own constitution to stay in power as the de facto leader of Russia, basically reducing their president Medvedev to a figurehead position.
All of the European nations' are simply gonna add up the sum total's of Russia's regression to it's old self, and they are gonna start choosing sides.
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One way or the other, Europe's holiday from serious geopolitics is over.
The party is over, time to get back to work.
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The Georgians' got routed because of a lack of air cover-If we could have won Air superiority for them, this whole thing could have had a different outcome.
Right, we're supposed to start shooting down Russian attack aircraft. :rolleyes: Unless we were willing to back that up 100% with our Navy and Army, it would be a diplomatic/strategic disaster.
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Right, we're supposed to start shooting down Russian attack aircraft. :rolleyes: Unless we were willing to back that up 100% with our Navy and Army, it would be a diplomatic/strategic disaster.
NOT doing anything was the disaster. It belied weakness' both to Russia, and our Allies. The Russian's will be encouraged to try to pull more crap, and our Allies' won't really know what to think of us, possibly convincing some of them to turn allegiances.
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NOT doing anything was the disaster. It belied weakness' both to Russia, and our Allies. The Russian's will be encouraged to try to pull more crap, and our Allies' won't really know what to think of us, possibly convincing some of them to turn allegiances.
This is far from over. Acting too quickly or rashly would be as big a mistake as not acting at all.
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This is far from over. Acting too quickly or rashly would be as big a mistake as not acting at all.
I believe that this invasion was like a message to the world. It was basically a "Hello, Russia's still large, and on this continent, still in charge" kinda message, meant mostly to the West. It also showed the Russian people that Putin could face down the U.S., and NATO as well, by doing this. I honestly think our best play would have been to have moved in and slapped him down ASAP. It would have lost him face with his gov't., and IMHO, we would have been rid of the worst of the old Soviet Hard-liners, because he most likely would have taken the blame for what would have been a fiasco for Russia (if we had responded strongly.)
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It's a statement. OIL.
They don't want to be 'shut-off', either.
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It's a statement. OIL.
They don't want to be 'shut-off', either.
This whole thing is more about their former life as one of two big-boys on the block, nothing more. Oil's just a tool to them.
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I put the full responsibility on you, Frode, to bump this in 8 years and pay me homage.
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I put the full responsibility on you, Frode, to bump this in 8 years and pay me homage.
Won't be able to bump-there will be to many duplicate-near topic threads' in existence then.
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;)