Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Kaw1000 on August 27, 2008, 09:00:24 AM
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Is it just me, or are you guys sick of hearing about healthcare reform?
Hillary brought it up last night...it's a bunch of Hooweee...she has been working on this for
16 years now, and what has she accomplished?? Nothing I do believe. What a wind bag.
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Look at the VA hospitals and you'll see what government healthcare reform will bring to the masses.
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We already have government health care for the masses, medicare , it seems to work.
shamus
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We already have government health care for the masses, medicare , it seems to work.
It only covers a small portion of the population, paid for a large part of the population (who are not covered) and it will go broke in 2019. (http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=9794068 (http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=9794068))
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medicare works about as well as social security works... a bunch of people some years down the line are gonna get royally screwed.
I never could understand how these poor people who can afford a $100 a month for cable and $50 a month for cell phones can't afford maybe $75 a month for health care insurance.
lazs
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medicare works about as well as social security works... a bunch of people some years down the line are gonna get royally screwed.
I never could understand how these poor people who can afford a $100 a month for cable and $50 a month for cell phones can't afford maybe $75 a month for health care insurance.
lazs
Try $5,000 a year. And it's not health care, it's just robbery. When you wind up sick, then you discover they don't cover whatever it is you needed for treatment, then they take your house.
Unless your an illegal. Then your covered.
Just another screwing.
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medicare is not free, part A is, but that is for major problems, part B is for everything else and it costs me $98 a month and it has a high co-pay, if you want to supplement medicare it will cost you even more and you still have a co-pay. i pay about $135 a month for my "free" medicare.
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most of the stuff that you are paying for is stuff that you would have died from in the 50's and there would have been nothing they coulda done for you.
making sure weak people live a long time costs a lot of money.
How many weak people do you want to live a long time?
I would just as soon take my chances with what I can afford rather than having some commie tell me when I had to go to the doctor and what I can eat or do and what medical "programs" I would be forced to be on.
Alabama is now fining fat people who work for the state.. they are forced to go into programs and get treatment and if they are overweight... lose it or be fined.
Just like seatbelt and helmet laws tho.. no one is getting a big fat rebate check from the insurance companies for all that is saved.
The two biggest threats to life and liberty and individual freedom are the EPA and the insurance companies... one private and one government entity.. both have their tentacles in every facet of your life and want more and more control over everything you do.
lazs
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Is it just me, or are you guys sick of hearing about healthcare reform?
Yeah, I'm also tired of hearing about it. It's time to actually do something about it.
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Try $5,000 a year. And it's not health care, it's just robbery. When you wind up sick, then you discover they don't cover whatever it is you needed for treatment, then they take your house.
Unless your an illegal. Then your covered.
Just another screwing.
But its a private sector, open to competition screwing, so its a good thing.
shamus
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Try $5,000 a year. And it's not health care, it's just robbery. When you wind up sick, then you discover they don't cover whatever it is you needed for treatment, then they take your house.
Unless your an illegal. Then your covered.
Just another screwing.
I pay around $475 a month for my insurance under a small group plan. This is the only quality plan I could afford and it took a lot of fenagiling to get into it. An HMO, the care you get depends on the doctor. Mine had diagnosed me as having heartburn issues for 2 years. Had stress tests, EKG's and finaly an esophageal scope done to see why I had chest pains from 'heartburn'. When the scope results came back clean I demanded that my GP send me to a heart doc. When I called that doc this past January he said meet me at the hospital NOW. Heart surgery the next day and a ten day hospital stay that would have cost me $385,000 if I hadn't had insurance. The Ins co. paid $68,000 because that's their negociated payout to the hospital.
Had I not been able to afford nearly $500/month for this insurance I'd have no home now, had I no home in the beginning I'd be absolutly ruined financialy. Had I not had insurance I likely would not have gotten treatment and wouldn't be here today
Time for this country to reform their health system where all Americans can afford to be protected no matter their income level, putting a price on whether a person lives or dies is shameful, disgraceful and not what America should be like.
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anytime a politician says they are going to "reform" something i get scared, reform does not mean better, it just means change.
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Is it just me, or are you guys sick of hearing about healthcare reform?
I am sick of people saying health care is a right.
It is not.
I have the right to free speech, religion, assembly and press, and the first amendment prohibits government from taking it away from me.
Those four are mine by being born American. Nobody has to pay someone for my rights*, nobody had to go to school to learn how to give these rights to me.
*Although many paid to allow me to keep these rights.
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from the Constitution of the USA.
Article I, section 8 of the U. S. Constitution grants Congress the power to "lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts, and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common defense and general Welfare of the United States."
general welfare.
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medicare is not free, part A is, but that is for major problems, part B is for everything else and it costs me $98 a month and it has a high co-pay, if you want to supplement medicare it will cost you even more and you still have a co-pay. i pay about $135 a month for my "free" medicare.
Simple solution, opt out and go get some of that $75.00 a month coverage that laz is talking about.
shamus
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I never could understand how these poor people who can afford a $100 a month for cable and $50 a month for cell phones can't afford maybe $75 a month for health care insurance.
lazs
I want the name of that company that has $75.00 a month health care insurance. :)
At any rate, health insurance is expensive enough as it stands. The price of my freedom and rights is damn sure a price I am not willing to pay.
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Health insurance is THE most costly thing outside of rent/home repayments there is these days. And in some cases it can be even more expensive.
Here's an example of the approximate difference between your (USA) health care system and our (Australian) taxpayer funded health care system.
The Birth of our Daughter Brianna.
2 Week stay in Hospital in private room for Sarah due to extreme hypertension.
Emergency C-Section at 34 weeks gestation.
3 week stay in the NICU for Brianna with oxygen in the humidicrib and jaundice treatment until she was well enough to come home.
Cost to us in the USA, easily $100000-$200000
Cost to us in Australia, NOTHING, nil, nada, zip.
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That we have wound up calling what most people get from their employers health "insurance" is part of the problem.
In most cases, it's not insurance, it's a pre-paid health plan.
If what most folks really had was insurance - where they paid for all routine medical expenses out of pocket except for catastrophic events (say, over $10,000) like other insurance, then the cost of healthcare would be set by the market and the cost of insurance would be relatively low.
Make an impact - get a high deductible health plan and shop for your health care and spend your own money for it.
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Employers don't offer health plans here.
You have two choices, you can pay unrealistically high (for the average family) premiums for health insurance and get a small tax break or pay what is called the Medicare levy (which is actually quite reasonable) and get almost the same level of healthcare for "free".
The only place that the public system really drops the ball is in dental care. It's cheaper in the long run for us to pay out of our own pockets for dental since most heath insurers will usually only refund you half anyway.
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Yeah, I'm also tired of hearing about it. It's time to actually do something about it.
Easy enough to say.......
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The problem with healthcare...is that capitalism doesn't really jive with saving lives. The best thing to do is collect $$$ from healthy people, then hope sick people die in a few hours. Of course, this doesn't sound great to most people.
That said, I think the biggest problem with healthcare is the pharmaceutical industry. A bunch of freeloading, lobbyist pigs. The industry is probably next on the chopping block after other trendy investments that have recently failed.
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The problem with healthcare...is that capitalism doesn't really jive with saving lives. The best thing to do is collect $$$ from healthy people, then hope sick people die in a few hours. Of course, this doesn't sound great to most people.
That said, I think the biggest problem with healthcare is the pharmaceutical industry. A bunch of freeloading, lobbyist pigs. The industry is probably next on the chopping block after other trendy investments that have recently failed.
Their profit margins go down, the price goes up. The 'industry' will not abandon is percentage without a gun to their heads. Same old crap.. just another world class screwing for joe public..
"Next..."
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Look at the VA hospitals and you'll see what government healthcare reform will bring to the masses.
Amen to that, brother! Anybody who thinks that federally underwritten healthcare will be just the same as their current healthcare are incredibly naive. I have seen the worst docters and nurses in VA facilities (not every single doctor and nurse, just most of them in my experience). I have seen a doctor pronounce a serious condition that needs prompt surgical attenttion check his calendar to schedule the surgery, find he is booked up for the next month so HE CHANGES THE DIAGNOSIS TO SOMETHING INNOCUOUS BECAUSE HE DOESN'T HAVE THE TIME TO DO IT! I have seen my dads (WW II vet, tank driver) doctor end his examination of my dad because HE HAD ALREADY USED UP THE 20 MINUTES ALLOTTED FOR EACH PATIENT! This doctor only schedules patients appointments for 1 visit per 3 months. That's it. 20 minutes every 3 months. This is that doctors policy. When visiting my dad in one VA hospital, a man was being given a enema 6 feet from him in a 4 man ward. A short cotton curtain was the only thing separating the pairs of patients on each side of the room. Imagine your loved ones trying keep you company at your bedside while a man is blasting his bowels out into a steel bedpan a few feet away on the other side of a flimsy partial curtain.
BTW, on the other side of my dads bed was the rooms sink. The nurse (?) that came around to empty the urinals in each room was so damn lazy, she would simply dump them into the sink by his bed. Didn't even bother to rinse the sink out. Each time I entered the room the smell of old piss would nearly make me retch. He spoke to the head nurse about it and nothing was done.
I was there when these events took place. There are more events I could detail. These events took place in Jackson, Ms. and Big Springs, Tx.
My dad is now 84 years old. He has been suffering from injuries inflicted in WW II and is in constant pain. He is a veteran and the best man I ever met, yet he has been subjected to that kind of care in those federal hospitals. Yeah, the federal government really knows how to provide great health care.
BS!
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Cost to us in Australia, NOTHING, nil, nada, zip.
Are you really so naive about basic economics to think that you don't pay for that? The money for the doctors, staff and hospitals just comes out of thin air?
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Healthcare costs were low until the government got involved. I believe there are studies on this.
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Are you really so naive about basic economics to think that you don't pay for that? The money for the doctors, staff and hospitals just comes out of thin air?
You neglected to read my follow up post didn't you?
I know it's not "free" every taxpayer is charged a Levy which goes toward the public heathcare system.
Those that can afford private health cover get to claim 50-75% of their fees and Medicare tops most of the gap up. They usually find themselves a little out of pocket.
For the most part the Public patients receive their health care free of charge. Most Doctors bulk bill, those that don't the patients receive a refund when they lodge their claim at a Medicare office either in person or by post.
Some specialists, like the ones Sarah needs to see to manage her chronic hypertension in her pregnancy charge above the rebate so we are a little out of pocket each visit but that's the way it goes.
All in all, it's been an effective working system in Australia for about a hundred years. Seems pretty sustainable to me.
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Oh wait.. I missunderstood... you guys don't want health care.. you want unlimitied and free health care... sorry.
the $75 a month stuff has a $4000 deductible and does not pay for doctors visits or perscriptions.
If a $4000 deductible is going to ruin you then you should never own a car.. a transmission going out will cost more than that.. sometimes the glass.
If a $100 doctor visit is going to ruin you then you should not own a car or a cell phone.. Every time you take your car in for anything it is $100 to $500 or more.. some careless and useless texting will run your cell phone bill to $100
I average about 1 doctor visit every 10 years.. usually in an ambulance. Always covered by some kind of insurance.
I have had a heart operation that was a birth defect.. a valve.. pretty common. thing. It cost about a quarter million bucks.. I had insurance.. if I had a $4000 deductible I would be no worse off but.
The operation I had did not exist in the 50's.. the famous singer james darrin died from the same operation in the 60's In the 50's you lived with it or died with it.
Any national health care is going to have to ration health care. Any national health care is going to force you to live like a socialist in a nanny state.. you will be at their mercy and will be told what to eat and do and when to go to the doctor.
and... you will end up with british teeth anyway.
lazs
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You neglected to read my follow up post didn't you?
I know it's not "free" every taxpayer is charged a Levy which goes toward the public heathcare system.
The problem is you're holding up the 100k-200k like it's a legit number. No woman I know has ever had to pay a bill like that. At most, they paid a few hundred in deductibles over the span of their pregnancy, from prenetal vitamins all the way to delivery. They're paying monthly private insurance premiums just like you said the pregnant women in the land down under do.
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Time for this country to reform their health system where all Americans can afford to be protected no matter their income level, putting a price on whether a person lives or dies is shameful, disgraceful and not what America should be like.
Flat out true!
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I look at it like this. If they want to raise my taxes to fund a national health care program, that's fine AS LONG as I still retain the option of providing my own insurance and still get to pick what doctor I go and see, AND my insurance premiums are tax deductable.
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I look at it like this. If they want to raise my taxes to fund a national health care program, that's fine AS LONG as I still retain the option of providing my own insurance and still get to pick what doctor I go and see, AND my insurance premiums are tax deductable.
Be careful whay you wish for. To fund national health care your taxes would be so high you might not be able to afford your own insurance.
Remember the Dems moto. "From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs."
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Healthcare costs were low until the government got involved.
It's a little more complicated than that. Healthcare costs have skyrocketed for several reasons:
1. Better care. The typical patient in ICU today would, 50 years ago, be in the morgue. Some morphine and a hearty handshake were pretty cheap. But CT, MRI, chemotherapy, radiation therapy, organ transplants ... that crap's expensive.
2. Third party payers. Back then, it was fee for service and the fee came out of your pocket. But every insurance scheme, whether public or private, insulates the patient from the true cost of health care so there's no incentive for patients to make good economic decisions. Also not all the insurance premium goes to health care -- the shareholders, sales people, and bureaucratic staff get their cut first.
3. Out of control legal environment. Back in the day, a drunk went to the police station. Now he comes through the ED because of fears he might aspirate on his own vomit and die in police custody leading to an expensive lawsuit. Or god forbid a patient might develop a complication, in which case they scurry to the local ambulance chaser like they buy lottery tickets, but with a much better chance of hitting the jackpot. Modern doctors spend an incredible amount of time documenting and ruling out unlikely diagnoses not because it improves care, but because they prefer to not loose their house.
4. Futile care. Keeping your demented 90-year old granny with 8 comorbidities alive another 2 months sucking life through plastic tubes costs big money. 50 years ago, or today in any other country, this patient would have died 15 years earlier.
5. Patients are not encouraged to take responsibility for their own health. We smoke, drink too much, eat too much, don't exercise enough, ride motorcycles without helments and engage in all sorts of other foolish behavior ... but when the heart says "See ya", the liver shrinks up or the head splats on the concrete we expect somebody to fix it.
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I guess we need to define "health care" and even "free health care"...
They are very broad subjects. It seems that some of you feel that it is your gawd given right that... any new procedure.. so long as it keeps you alive or.. you simply want it.. that it is your birthright that someone pay to give you that procedure.
Say a drug came out that would cure cancer but it costs oh... 10 million bucks for the treatment.. 90% success rate.
Would everyone be entitled to it under your "free health care" or is it even considered "health care" by you guys?
lazs
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myelo,
You for got one.
People and Illegals with out health insurance....Drives up cost big time!
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Actually uninsured patients don't drive up costs as much as everyone seems to think, at least directly. (whether they're immigrants or not doesn't matter and 47 million US citizens aren't insured)
Let's say the typical gun-and-knife club member goes to the local ED to have his face put back together because he was standing on the corner, minding his own business when two dudes (it's always at least two) jumped him for absolutely no reason at all. He doesn't have insurance and isn't going to pay out of his own pocket (that would cut into his cell phone, cigarette, and tattoo budget). So the hospital doesn't get paid and has to eat the bill. That means they have to jack up their fees for folks with insurance. The insurance companies in turn jack up their premiums to pay for the increased fees.
But ...
Let's say this same dude is Laz's buddy and has gotten some of that $75/month health insurance. So the hospital gets paid by the insurance company. But guess what? The insurance company now jacks up their premiums so everyone else who has health insurance pays higher premiums. Same result.
Indirectly though, this behavior probably does increase costs to some degree for another reason. The folks with no health insurance are more likely to go to the ED with minor complaints instead of a primary care doc or an urgent care place. The ED by law has to evaluate them even if they can't pay, while the first thing the primary care place does is see if the patient can pay. If not, they won't see them.
And for several reasons, getting your earache treated in an ED is a lot more expensive than getting it treated at primary care. But the problem here is more the stupid EMTALA law (which I did leave out).
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My 23 year old son got a Blue Cross Preferred Care policy for $100/month. This policy is his alone. I'm on a different system at work.
He has a $2500 deductible. After that he pays 20% in network. Covers prescriptions and some dental too.
So it can be done.
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That is true, Toad, rates are cheaper for the young and healthy. But if he were 50+, or had a chronic illness, the rates would be much higher if available at all.
And Myelo, many good points made there. The ED is rapidly becoming the primary care provider for the uninsured, and for the most part this is unreimbursed care. Our hospital ends up writing a lot of that off.
and EMTALA....causes no end of problems for our small rural hospitals
Joker
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When the politicians spit out the numbers on how many Americans have no health insurance do they break it down by age?
Don't think they do.
Point is that health insurance IS available to many of the currently uninsured for the price of the all-in-one cable/internet package as Laz said.
As for older, chronically ill people, there should be high risk pools like there are for car insurance.
Where did this idea come from that everyone should be entitled to the same health care at a standard price? There are very high risk behaviors that are linked to serious illness. Should smokers pay the same as non-smokers?
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"Point is that health insurance IS available to many of the currently uninsured for the price of the all-in-one cable/internet package as Laz said."
Point IS that those people you are talking about, will not pay a penny because they don't have to. So great, heath Insurance is available
to every one.....even if you tried to make people pay for it....They will not.Why should they?? Ahh the Democratic way!
Lets watch, tonight, and here Obamma how hes going to fix heath care...can't wait to get a good chuckle.
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medicare works about as well as social security works... a bunch of people some years down the line are gonna get royally screwed.
I never could understand how these poor people who can afford a $100 a month for cable and $50 a month for cell phones can't afford maybe $75 a month for health care insurance.
lazs
What kind of health care insurance costs $75 a month?
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MT, my son could have gone ~$75, maybe a bit less if he had not chosen the "Preferred Plan". They had cheaper plans available.
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If you're young and healthy, you can get relatively cheap health insurance if you're willing to have a decent-sized deductable and copay. You do have to pay attention to the maximum reimbursement (both yearly and total).
And that's really the way health insurance was originally intended to work -- protect you against catastrophic losses. The problem is a lot of people want their health insurance to pay for every little minor thing. That gets really expensive. Think of homeowners insurance. If you want to get reimbursed if your house burns down, that's relatively cheap, because it's a rare occurrence. But if you wanted to to reimbursed for things like getting the heat pump fixed, the walls repainted or the toilet repaired it's going to be expensive. In fact it's always cheaper just to pay for that yourself because for the insurance company to cover that they're going to first take out their overhead costs and profit.
So if you're young and healthy and willing to pay for the small stuff yourself, you can get pretty cheap insurance.
On the other hand, if you're older and/or already have a serious health problem or two, it's going to get expensive. After all, if your house is already on fire, how much do you think you would have to pay for homeowners insurance?
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All true, Myelo.
I think that it needs to be pointed out however that when our teary-eyed politicians decry the lack of a national free health care system for the millions of Americans that have no insurance they are including the young, healthy people that could get insurance from providers like Blue Cross for less than $100 like my son did.
So in any event, their numbers are really skewed. Many of the millions could get health insurance for less than their cable/internet package but would rather have cable/internet instead.
Again, where did this idea come from that everyone should be entitled to the same health care at a standard price or even free from the government?
There are very high risk behaviors that are linked to serious illness. Should smokers pay the same as non-smokers? Should smokers be entitled to free health care even though it's proven that they are voluntarily increasing their health risks enormously and that they will require far more national healthcare resources (as a group) than non-smokers?
Lastly, I don't believe there is an existing national health care system in any country where that healthcare isn't rationed. The example being the Canadians that come to the US for treatment because they can't wait a year for a CAT scan and surgery in Canada.
Is there anyone foolish enough to think that health care will not be similarly rationed here?
We'll probably be joining the Canadians on the way down to Mexico to get prompt medical services and treatment.
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The guy I know who gets insurance for $75 a month is almost 50 years old and has had back surgery and a few other things. He has a $4000 deductible and he pays $50 for a doctor visit.
I would love to hear what "right" to what kind of "health insurance" you have.
myelo proves my point I think.. my buddy doesn't go to the doctor every day cause he pays for the visits. myelo admits that when people use the system it all goes up for everyone. with "free" health care.. unless it is a really bad system.. one you hate to use.. worthless aholes will be parked in doctors offices around the country with every little ache and pain hoping to get some kind of good drugs or a disabillity pension.
lazs
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Think of the Canadians. Where will they go for quality health care if we governmentalize ours?
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Look at the VA hospitals and you'll see what government healthcare reform will bring to the masses.
Are you on Crack? The VA hospitals and the crap that happened in the last few years was because Cheney let private contractors take it over. It was fine before they cut all the govt employees and understaffed it with private contractors.
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can't wait for the 16+ hour wait in the emergency rooms and the 4+ hr wait in the doc offices with all the sluggs with runny noses once they get their free ticket..as if it isn't bad enough now
please visit your local dmv on any given day for a preview of whats to come with "universal health care" ..
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Are you on Crack? The VA hospitals and the crap that happened in the last few years was because Cheney let private contractors take it over. It was fine before they cut all the govt employees and understaffed it with private contractors.
:rofl :rofl :rofl
WRONG. My Dad was in the VA health care system BEFORE Cheney was vice President. It sucked then, it sucks now. Bush/Cheney didn't make it what it is, but no doubt they failed to fix it.
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can't wait for the 16+ hour wait in the emergency rooms and the 4+ hr wait in the doc offices with all the sluggs with runny noses once they get their free ticket..as if it isn't bad enough now
please visit your local dmv on any given day for a preview of whats to come with "universal health care" ..
Last time I went to the emergency room after a car wreck.. I waited about a hour and a half just to get the Triage then another 45 mins before they took me in the back. Another hour and a half later the doctor checked me out and spent literally 5 mins with me. So I have no clue how waiting in a govt run hospital would be any diffrent than the wait at a private run hospital.
Now compaire that to my local DMV here in Daytona, the longest I've waited was about 20 mins.
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Are you on Crack? The VA hospitals and the crap that happened in the last few years was because Cheney let private contractors take it over. It was fine before they cut all the govt employees and understaffed it with private contractors.
Are you on crack?
:rofl :rofl
The government hospitals, VA and military, have sucked for decades.
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Are you on Crack? The VA hospitals and the crap that happened in the last few years was because Cheney let private contractors take it over. It was fine before they cut all the govt employees and understaffed it with private contractors.
VA Hospitals started their downward spiral after WWI.
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Lastly, I don't believe there is an existing national health care system in any country where that healthcare isn't rationed.
Any health care system has rationing to some degree. Since there's generally a limit on how much money is available you have to have some control on the amount of health care you provide. This is true even with private health care insurance, which are neck deep in regulations regarding what they will and will not pay for. But in general, the more government is involved the more rationing you have. Even a true free market fee for service system has rationing to the extent that unless you're super rich, there is a limit on what you can pay for.
One other point: there seems to be a lot of confusion on the difference between a government funded health care system and a government run health care system. In a government funded system the government pays for health care provided by private hospital and doctors using taxes and/or payments. These include Medicare and Medicaid in the US, and the Canadian system.
In a government run system the hospitals and doctors are government employees. Examples are the VA system and the UK system.
Most of the talk of reform in the US centers on government funded systems not government run systems.
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So when it is rationed, should it still be available?
If anyone wants to have a balanced view on this I suggest:
The Ugly Truth About Canadian Health Care
http://www.city-journal.org/html/17_3_canadian_healthcare.html
Excerpts:
...Another sign of transformation: Canadian doctors, long silent on the health-care system’s problems, are starting to speak up. Last August, they voted Brian Day president of their national association. A former socialist who counts Fidel Castro as a personal acquaintance, Day has nevertheless become perhaps the most vocal critic of Canadian public health care, having opened his own private surgery center as a remedy for long waiting lists and then challenged the government to shut him down. “This is a country in which dogs can get a hip replacement in under a week,” he fumed to the New York Times, “and in which humans can wait two to three years.”...
... M. D. Anderson in Texas, a prominent cancer center, spends more on research than Canada does.
That said, American health care is expensive. And Americans aren’t always getting a good deal. In the coming years, with health expenses spiraling up, it will be easy for some—like the zealous legislators in California—to give in to the temptation of socialized medicine. In Washington, there are plenty of old pieces of legislation that like-minded politicians could take off the shelf, dust off, and promote: expanding Medicare to Americans 55 and older, say, or covering all children in Medicaid.
But such initiatives would push the United States further down the path to a government-run system and make things much, much worse. True, government bureaucrats would be able to cut costs—but only by shrinking access to health care, as in Canada, and engendering a Canadian-style nightmare of overflowing emergency rooms and yearlong waits for treatment...
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Any health care system has rationing to some degree. Since there's generally a limit on how much money is available you have to have some control on the amount of health care you provide. This is true even with private health care insurance, which are neck deep in regulations regarding what they will and will not pay for. But in general, the more government is involved the more rationing you have. Even a true free market fee for service system has rationing to the extent that unless you're super rich, there is a limit on what you can pay for.
One other point: there seems to be a lot of confusion on the difference between a government funded health care system and a government run health care system. In a government funded system the government pays for health care provided by private hospital and doctors using taxes and/or payments. These include Medicare and Medicaid in the US, and the Canadian system.
In a government run system the hospitals and doctors are government employees. Examples are the VA system and the UK system.
Most of the talk of reform in the US centers on government funded systems not government run systems.
Government funded will be government run within a couple of years.
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I don't think that's necessarily true. Medicare and medicaid been going 40+ years, still not government run. Same for Canada's system.
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Let's say the typical gun-and-knife club member goes to the local ED to have his face put back together because he was standing on the corner, minding his own business when two dudes (it's always at least two) jumped him for absolutely no reason at all.
hmm, in that case the two dudes (it's always at least two), might be the ones that need free health care.
ER doc" what happened to you guys?"
dudes, "some crazy neocon shot us and cut us up with a knife, all we wanted was his money"