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General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Soulyss on October 15, 2008, 09:48:54 AM

Title: Re: B-25H and the use of AP ammo
Post by: Soulyss on October 15, 2008, 09:48:54 AM
Rather than resurrect a thread from back in August I thought I'd just start a new one.  Someone was looking for information on wether the B-25's ever loaded anything other than HE on the 75mm cannon.  I just picked up a copy of "B-25 Mitchell Units of the MTO" from Osprey.  While I don't expect this anecdotal evidence to change anything I thought I'd post it for those who may be interested.

"[Talking about the B-25G] I was in an attack at sea, but against Panzers it was rare that we got off two rounds.  But one round usually did the trick, with pieces of the tank flying high into the air.  When the shaped-charge shells like those 75mm brutes we used hit a tank, it blew it up from the inside out."

and

"Those 75mm  cannon rounds were 26 inches long and weighed some 20lbs each.  Just above the cannon breech was a rack that held 20 rounds.  We carried mostly high explosive warhead rounds, with a few armor piercing shells thrown in for good measure just in case we me one or more of the dreaded German destroyers prevalent in the area."

"The cannon was a standard M4, with a specially constructed spring to absorb some of its recoil shock."
Title: Re: B-25H and the use of AP ammo
Post by: PFactorDave on October 15, 2008, 11:47:44 AM
Interesting indeed.  AP rounds in that gun would make minced meat out of GVs for certain.  I want it!   :pray
Title: Re: B-25H and the use of AP ammo
Post by: Yossarian on October 15, 2008, 07:54:39 PM
Thanks for posting that, I think I might have been the one to post that original question, but I can't remember now  ;)

Anyway, it would be really nice to get those AP shells in-game.

<S>

Yossarian
Title: Re: B-25H and the use of AP ammo
Post by: Lusche on October 15, 2008, 08:02:10 PM
Interesting indeed.  AP rounds in that gun would make minced meat out of GVs for certain.  I want it!   :pray

The B-25' 75mm does already make minced meat out of every GV in game...
Title: Re: B-25H and the use of AP ammo
Post by: Xasthur on October 15, 2008, 08:05:13 PM
Sounds great, the Il2 has a new set of fangs so we might as well give the B25 a new set of choppers too.
Title: Re: B-25H and the use of AP ammo
Post by: Soulyss on October 15, 2008, 08:43:53 PM
The B-25' 75mm does already make minced meat out of every GV in game...

While it's entirely possible that I"m just a horrible shot, I can dispatch Panzers and M4's with the B-25 if I hit them in the back, I have trouble knocking out T-34's and Tigers.  How would one approach one of those tanks?  Most my shells seem to bounce off, even from the rear.
Title: Re: B-25H and the use of AP ammo
Post by: E25280 on October 15, 2008, 08:55:16 PM
While it's entirely possible that I"m just a horrible shot, I can dispatch Panzers and M4's with the B-25 if I hit them in the back, I have trouble knocking out T-34's and Tigers.  How would one approach one of those tanks?  Most my shells seem to bounce off, even from the rear.

T-34s, from the side between the bogie wheels / into the driver compartment.

Tigers, from the top.  See Bronk do it . . .

http://www.mediafire.com/file/ynzmjjfnweh/2_tiger_kills.ahf
Title: Re: B-25H and the use of AP ammo
Post by: splitatom on October 15, 2008, 08:55:56 PM
tigers often bounce but when they stick they only can smoke a tiger they cant kill it i almost did it once a tank had to come in and kill it but i got the kill as a was aproaching to land and t34 all my rounds bounce i have aproached by all angles
Title: Re: B-25H and the use of AP ammo
Post by: E25280 on October 15, 2008, 08:58:19 PM
tigers often bounce but when they stick they only can smoke a tiger they cant kill it
Incorrect. See my previous post.
Title: Re: B-25H and the use of AP ammo
Post by: Bronk on October 15, 2008, 09:01:32 PM
tigers often bounce but when they stick they only can smoke a tiger they cant kill it i almost did it once a tank had to come in and kill it but i got the kill as a was aproaching to land and t34 all my rounds bounce i have aproached by all angles
1 shot 1 kill on tigers is most definitely possible.
Title: Re: B-25H and the use of AP ammo
Post by: splitatom on October 15, 2008, 09:07:44 PM
i have a film somewhere on my computer where 3 b 25 shot at a tiger we tracked it once and then it got patched up and then we couldnt even touch it after it so tanks took it out our field ak was also shooting at them i only started recording after about 15 shots already on him
Title: Re: B-25H and the use of AP ammo
Post by: Bronk on October 15, 2008, 09:14:54 PM
i have a film somewhere on my computer where 3 b 25 shot at a tiger we tracked it once and then it got patched up and then we couldnt even touch it after it so tanks took it out our field ak was also shooting at them i only started recording after about 15 shots already on him
Duhhhh
vvvvv
T-34s, from the side between the bogie wheels / into the driver compartment.

Tigers, from the top.  See Bronk do it . . .

http://www.mediafire.com/file/ynzmjjfnweh/2_tiger_kills.ahf
2 trigger pulls 2 tiger kills.
Title: Re: B-25H and the use of AP ammo
Post by: BoSoxFan on October 16, 2008, 01:40:27 AM
http://www.fileden.com/files/2007/4/24/1013733/B25vstiger.zip
Title: Re: Re: B-25H and the use of AP ammo
Post by: moot on October 16, 2008, 05:05:10 AM
"[Talking about the B-25G] I was in an attack at sea, but against Panzers it was rare that we got off two rounds.  But one round usually did the trick, with pieces of the tank flying high into the air.  When the shaped-charge shells like those 75mm brutes we used hit a tank, it blew it up from the inside out."

and

"Those 75mm  cannon rounds were 26 inches long and weighed some 20lbs each.  Just above the cannon breech was a rack that held 20 rounds.  We carried mostly high explosive warhead rounds, with a few armor piercing shells thrown in for good measure just in case we me one or more of the dreaded German destroyers prevalent in the area."
Does the book mention which tanks those were, more specificaly?

The tiger dies to 25H cannon shells very easily, the difficulty is getting the hang of maneuvering and timing an accurate shot as near vertical as possible.  I've never seen someone post results of tests on whether airspeed is a meaningful factor in lethality or not.
Title: Re: B-25H and the use of AP ammo
Post by: Ghosth on October 16, 2008, 06:01:33 AM
Would love it if HTC would give us a loadout option to include up to but no more than 5 AP rounds for the big gun.

Personally I've been having a blast with the iL2 and the new 37mm guns.
Title: Re: B-25H and the use of AP ammo
Post by: Saxman on October 16, 2008, 07:45:14 AM
The question I'd have is were they supplied WITH AP rounds, or did they scrounge them up somewhere?

However if there's evidence the B-25G/H used AP rounds then we SHOULD have it in-game.

It ALSO sounds like it didn't matter if the shell was AP or not. Granted he's not saying if this is two shots in one pass, but the shaped HE charges were more than enough to knock out a Panzer, and probably not by having to put one up his tailpipe at 200yds. The B-25's cannon should be more effective against armored vehicles in the game than it is (now ain't THAT a scary thought).
Title: Re: Re: B-25H and the use of AP ammo
Post by: Soulyss on October 16, 2008, 10:44:39 AM
Does the book mention which tanks those were, more specificaly?

Unfortunately no it doesn't, it was chance that I happened across the passage when I got the book the other day, I would be surprised even if the  a panzer model was mentioned whether his recollection of events would be accurate, what with traveling 200-300mph and people shooting at him, and the passage of 40-50 years. :) You could probably make an educated assumption if you looked at the entry date into service for the B-25H and look at what tanks were operating in Italy at the time.  But that's about as close as I think you're going to get.   I would think that the Panzer IV would be the most numerous tank in service for Germany at the time, but that's little more than a blind guess, I'm largely ignorant when it comes to service dates of most german tanks. 
Title: Re: B-25H and the use of AP ammo
Post by: Angus on October 16, 2008, 11:45:13 AM
I hammered several of those into a Tiger yesterday with no results.
Title: Re: B-25H and the use of AP ammo
Post by: Bronk on October 16, 2008, 05:12:49 PM
I hammered several of those into a Tiger yesterday with no results.
look at the film... helps.
Title: Re: B-25H and the use of AP ammo
Post by: Soulyss on October 16, 2008, 05:29:03 PM
I took a look at the film and I'll have to give it a try.  My problem is I don't think I'm a good enough shot to line up the target, pull the trigger, then pull up before I plow into the ground. :)
Title: Re: B-25H and the use of AP ammo
Post by: BaDkaRmA158Th on October 16, 2008, 06:30:28 PM
Thats always been my problem, i always plow into the ground on pullout, or scrape the ground and ram the target.


Fail.
Title: Re: Re: B-25H and the use of AP ammo
Post by: moot on October 16, 2008, 06:35:28 PM
Hammerheading with separate engine throttling helps...
Title: Re: B-25H and the use of AP ammo
Post by: Soulyss on October 16, 2008, 07:52:40 PM
Well I'm inspired, if anyone's looking for an easy kill there will probably be a B-25 lumbering around the MA's tonight looking for GV's to shoot. :)

Title: Re: B-25H and the use of AP ammo
Post by: Bronk on October 17, 2008, 08:11:31 AM
Well I'm inspired, if anyone's looking for an easy kill there will probably be a B-25 lumbering around the MA's tonight looking for GV's to shoot. :)


Welll..... how did it go? :)
Title: Re: B-25H and the use of AP ammo
Post by: Soulyss on October 17, 2008, 10:36:37 AM
Spent last night in the MW, and there was actually little chance to up the lumbering artillery piece.  Had some decent scuffles in my poor beat-up and battered P-38, only ran into a wirlbe at the end of the night, but he blew up nicely. :)

Title: Re: Re: B-25H and the use of AP ammo
Post by: Yossarian on October 17, 2008, 12:13:25 PM
Hammerheading with separate engine throttling helps...

Agreed, I was messing around very recently practising this (I mapped three buttons on my joystick to control which engines are selected) and when I looked at the film, I was very surprised by how tightly I could reverse course that way :D

Later that sortie I got an assist on a 109K4 :D :D
Title: Re: B-25H and the use of AP ammo
Post by: Saxman on October 17, 2008, 05:34:09 PM
If we ever got AP for the pumpkin chucker HTC would almost HAVE to perk her. Right now the only thing keeping her from being the top-dog premier anti-tank platform in the game is the fact you have to make some real trick shots at point-blank range to cause damage (granted, the information in the original post suggests our HE rounds are far less effective than they SHOULD be). Imagine the whines if the 25H was able to pick off tanks from over 1000yds out!

:D
Title: Re: Re: B-25H and the use of AP ammo
Post by: moot on October 17, 2008, 06:38:47 PM
I'm not sure, but I think 1000y kills are actualy very doable.  I think I remember me and kappa killing some flaks or panzers from around GV icon range.  I'm pretty sure that if it's possible (the shell is still lethal at that range), it's a rare sight because it requires just so much precision (or luck).
.. Now that I really dig for the memory, I'm pretty sure I specificaly remember the sight of us setting up our shots so we'd fire em and pull out just as the flaks started firing.
Title: Re: B-25H and the use of AP ammo
Post by: splitatom on October 17, 2008, 08:43:51 PM
the only thing the b25 with armor piercing shells can do is knock out the turets of flack guns
Title: Re: B-25H and the use of AP ammo
Post by: Bronk on October 17, 2008, 09:27:44 PM
the only thing the b25 with armor piercing shells can do is knock out the turets of flack guns
lol maybe that's all you can do.
Title: Re: B-25H and the use of AP ammo
Post by: BoSoxFan on October 18, 2008, 02:34:15 AM
If we ever got AP for the pumpkin chucker HTC would almost HAVE to perk her. Right now the only thing keeping her from being the top-dog premier anti-tank platform in the game is the fact you have to make some real trick shots at point-blank range to cause damage (granted, the information in the original post suggests our HE rounds are far less effective than they SHOULD be). Imagine the whines if the 25H was able to pick off tanks from over 1000yds out!

:D

I can kill tanks from out of icon range. It may take a few shots but Iv done it. The other day I killed a wirbelwind from about 1.3k out. It took two aiming shots and the third hit him and sent him back to the tower. Iv also got PT boat and M3/M16/jeep kills from as far out as 3k, but because they are light skined you only need a near miss.
Title: Re: B-25H and the use of AP ammo
Post by: Saxman on October 18, 2008, 02:39:48 AM
moot,

Not against tanks. I can (and have) hit M-16s and M8s from 1000yds to knock them out, and maybe turret an Ostwind or Wirblewind, but doing a tank from that range would require a LOT of luck.

splitatom

I don't have it on film but there was an attack against a Rook GV base a while back where I rolled out a B-25H to provide air support. Knights were hitting it with about eight Panzers, and there were a few friendly GVs in the area and one A-20. I took out one Panzer with bombs, and the A-20 got another one or two with his eggs. I then gunned down three more Panzers with four rounds TOTAL (all four rounds hit. Two were one-shot one-kill, one I didn't quite have the approach angle right on my first pass).

As it stands now it's all in where you hit them and from how far. Give the B-25H AP and guaranteed you'll be seeing tanks getting popped routinely from 1500-2000yds out. There wouldn't be a better pure tank-killer in the game.
Title: Re: B-25H and the use of AP ammo
Post by: Wolfala on October 18, 2008, 01:50:11 PM
If we ever got AP for the pumpkin chucker HTC would almost HAVE to perk her. Right now the only thing keeping her from being the top-dog premier anti-tank platform in the game is the fact you have to make some real trick shots at point-blank range to cause damage (granted, the information in the original post suggests our HE rounds are far less effective than they SHOULD be). Imagine the whines if the 25H was able to pick off tanks from over 1000yds out!

:D


Funny thing about that - I usually get in close enough to spit on them - but the bigger problem ended up being my ricochets from the 75mm bouncing back at me and occasionally hitting me! I"ve got a video of that happening to me somewhere.

Title: Re: B-25H and the use of AP ammo
Post by: Saxman on October 18, 2008, 04:30:07 PM
I've killshot myself like that once. Fired a shell, bounced off and hit a friendly aircraft nearby.
Title: Re: Re: B-25H and the use of AP ammo
Post by: Spikes on October 18, 2008, 04:44:06 PM
Anyone ever done damage with the 12 50cals on it? I usually end up running out of 75mm rounds or get popped by the angry guy before I can use em all.
Title: Re: B-25H and the use of AP ammo
Post by: Soulyss on October 18, 2008, 06:48:00 PM
you can damage the lighter vehicles with .50 but a "tank".  M3, M16, M8, Jeeps of course, I even think you can damage the german halftrack (name escapes me at the moment).  You can take out LVT's as well I think, and you can knock out the turret on a wirble or ostie. 

You may be able to get the "kill" on a tank if you hit it enough if someone else comes along and knocks it out, but I don't believe you can destroy any of the tanks with .50 cal ammo on your own. 
Title: Re: B-25H and the use of AP ammo
Post by: Serenity on October 18, 2008, 06:58:49 PM
I even think you can damage the german halftrack (name escapes me at the moment).

The wrath of god couldn't kill the SDK! I struggle to remember a single instance where I have lost one of those, lol. Ive taken hundreds of pounds of bombs, hundreds of new IL-2 37mm rounds, and auto ack, and I usually use a track at the most.
Title: Re: B-25H and the use of AP ammo
Post by: Newman5 on October 18, 2008, 07:16:31 PM
*Bookmark so I can check Bronk's video when I get home from work*
Title: Re: B-25H and the use of AP ammo
Post by: BoSoxFan on October 18, 2008, 08:37:24 PM
I've killshot myself like that once. Fired a shell, bounced off and hit a friendly aircraft nearby.

Iv done something like that. Bounced a round off a tiger and it hit by a countryman in his nearby tank. Sent me right to the tower.
Title: Re: B-25H and the use of AP ammo
Post by: Soulyss on October 18, 2008, 09:21:50 PM
The wrath of god couldn't kill the SDK! I struggle to remember a single instance where I have lost one of those, lol. Ive taken hundreds of pounds of bombs, hundreds of new IL-2 37mm rounds, and auto ack, and I usually use a track at the most.

To be honest it was a guess at best, I haven't tried it.  I rarely see the SDK in the MA's.
Title: Re: B-25H and the use of AP ammo
Post by: Chalenge on October 18, 2008, 10:30:54 PM
Unpossible! AXIS steel is much too hard for a mere 25H to kill like that!  :aok
Title: Re: B-25H and the use of AP ammo
Post by: 1701E on October 18, 2008, 11:41:00 PM
The wrath of god couldn't kill the SDK! I struggle to remember a single instance where I have lost one of those, lol. Ive taken hundreds of pounds of bombs, hundreds of new IL-2 37mm rounds, and auto ack, and I usually use a track at the most.

Been using the B-25H since its release, and i have always had slight troubles with the 251.  However I am yet to see one not die after a few hits.  Seems if i can kill those pesky Wirbles from 1.5K i could kill a 251 from 300 out right?  About 2 nights ago it took 5 direct hits to finally get it, cost me a pilot though.
Still fun to pick off ack from 5K out or even GVs from 2.5K (best shot yet on gv). :D  Course dogfighting in it is fun as well.


 :salute
   X
Title: Re: B-25H and the use of AP ammo
Post by: Saxman on October 18, 2008, 11:49:55 PM
I love coming face to face with the La-7/N1K2/C-Hog/Hurri 2C/Typhoon dweebs who think their cannon pwn all in the HO.

Then I give them a taste of MY cannon. :D
Title: Re: B-25H and the use of AP ammo
Post by: Ack-Ack on October 20, 2008, 07:53:25 PM
the only thing the b25 with armor piercing shells can do is knock out the turets of flack guns

The Mitchell is pretty good at killing Tigers and T-34s with the existing HE rounds, so I'd imagine they'd be a lot better and easier at killing Tigers and T-34s with AP rounds.


ack-ack
Title: Re: B-25H and the use of AP ammo
Post by: Ack-Ack on October 20, 2008, 07:56:55 PM

Funny thing about that - I usually get in close enough to spit on them - but the bigger problem ended up being my ricochets from the 75mm bouncing back at me and occasionally hitting me! I"ve got a video of that happening to me somewhere.




That happened to me against a Tiger once, came in from the side and fired from d400 out and pulled up and as I flew over the Tiger, I blew up.  Watching the film, the round richoted off the side of the turret and went straight up and connected with the belly of my Mitchell just as I passed over.  Best death ever.


ack-ack
Title: Re: B-25H and the use of AP ammo
Post by: Saxman on October 20, 2008, 08:05:15 PM
I do wonder if rounds should really bounce off tanks the way they do now. Especially HE, shouldn't that go off regardless of whether it's solid enough to do telling damage?
Title: Re: B-25H and the use of AP ammo
Post by: Delirium on October 20, 2008, 08:43:57 PM
From all the accounts I've read, they do. Then again, when you see a tank get hit (you can't really visualize your own) you don't know what type of shell they used on it.
Title: Re: B-25H and the use of AP ammo
Post by: splitatom on October 20, 2008, 09:33:52 PM

That happened to me against a Tiger once, came in from the side and fired from d400 out and pulled up and as I flew over the Tiger, I blew up.  Watching the film, the round richoted off the side of the turret and went straight up and connected with the belly of my Mitchell just as I passed over.  Best death ever.


ack-ack
that hapens a lot to me with 30mm or rockets if they deflect off a t34 when i am near them
Title: Re: B-25H and the use of AP ammo
Post by: E25280 on October 21, 2008, 07:19:37 PM
I do wonder if rounds should really bounce off tanks the way they do now. Especially HE, shouldn't that go off regardless of whether it's solid enough to do telling damage?
This has come up before.  My WAG at the matter is that the bounce is the best visual representation HTC can give you that your shot had no effect.  If they always exploded, even when doing no damage -- think of the whines!
Title: Re: B-25H and the use of AP ammo
Post by: save on October 25, 2008, 03:17:04 PM
75mm HE turret side should explode without doing much damage against later mbt's.
If you hit top of tank  you might ruin their day RL.