Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: mtnman on November 03, 2008, 12:02:06 PM
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This is coming as a result of a discussion in another thread questioning plane performance. Specifically the point was made about gear being deployed and retracted within seconds, but that got me thinking about other things...
I've been giving some thought to how the modeling of our AH pilot (and also joystick set-up) could lead us to being able to get our planes to perform at a higher level than is realistic or even possible. As in- maybe we're attributing perceived errors to the FM, when the "pilot model" could easily be at least partially to blame.
Even beyond the obvious questions of exertion, fatigue, etc...
Last night at work I weighed my head/neck and arm. And then I came home and found out I could just google them, which might have been easier... Anyhow- it turns out my head/neck weigh around 16#, and my arm around 12#. In a 5G turn, my head/neck would effectively seem to weigh 80#, and my arm 60#.
My joystick is set up with my flaps on a switch on my throttle that I can control with my index finger. This allows me to control both at the same time, which from what I can tell, shouldn't even be possible in the F4U. For me, not only is it possible, it's easy and second-nature. Even under G-load I can easily manipulate both controls- again, I doubt that would be possible in the real plane.
Also, under G-load my head should be more difficult to move, and even impossible to hold in certain positions. In a high G turn, should I be able to rapidly transition between looking over my right shoulder, to looking over my left, to looking straight up, while dropping another notch of flaps, reducing throttle, kicking rudder and not jostling the stick too much? Keep in mind I'm not wearing bulky clothing, gloves etc, while playing at home. I'm not scared, I don't have to do #2, and I'm not stiff from being in one position and cold for hours at a shot.
My point is this- even if the FM is correct for any particular plane, I should be able to get performance out of it that would be impossible in real life. I effectively have a robot flying my plane, programmed by my thoughts. The physical limitations aren't modeled, and I have the luxury of setting up my controls in a manner that easily allows me to perform actions impossible to perform in real life.
Would it be worthwhile/valuable to have a more accurately modeled pilot? Would it be difficult? Would it unfairly restrict people new to the game? A time-delay between inputs for certain function (throttle and flaps, for example), and slowing down the transition between views as G's increased might add realism. Also, having certain functions "frozen" under high G's (ability to switch between looking forward and checking high six while experiencing high G's?) Or even modeling fatigue by slowing down control inputs as time under G's builds...
Even in slow flight my stick set-up allows a reduced work-load for me, allowing me to devote my efforts elsewhere.
From a realism standpoint, modeling a more realistic pilot might be a great thing...
MtnMan
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^_^ and pulling 6 G as you crank ur head look behind ya ! that's kinda tuff in RL!
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Great post, and I think your point is 100% accurate.
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What's the criteria for slowing down any given input to instrumentation? How do you avoid complaints from users of a certain plane that had either less of a handicap than the proposed general handicap, or significantly less than another plane? G-Suits standard on some planes and not others? G-effect reduced or increased from seat position? etc.
I think this probably falls into the same rationale that gave us standardized instruments and combat trim. It allows the players to focus on the dogfighting rather than the micromanagement distractions. It would have been great for CT..
These features that would be the same regardless of the plane, like the linda blair and/or xyzG limitations on head positions could be an exception, though. It's going to be hairy to model the exact limitations for each different flight regime, for each different cockpit, imo.
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Good point but I suspect gameplay woud suffer as a result.
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Great post mtn.
We have enough real pilots on here. Imagine flying around, pulling some G's, and then having to take your hand off the throttle to find the flap handle, and position it to the position you want it in. Now, imagine cranking 5 or 6 G's and doing that. Now imagine cranking 5 or 6 G's, looking behind you, inverted, and doing it.
Yep, sure is alot easier to just have those two little buttons on my HOTAS for 'flaps up' and 'flaps down'.
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Would be nice if this was implemented, however I don't think it will be.
Fears of running customers away...
I'm anal retentive about realism but a lot of people aren't.
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What's the criteria for slowing down any given input to instrumentation? How do you avoid complaints from users of a certain plane that had either less of a handicap than the proposed general handicap, or significantly less than another plane? G-Suits standard on some planes and not others? G-effect reduced or increased from seat position? etc.
I think this probably falls into the same rationale that gave us standardized instruments and combat trim. It allows the players to focus on the dogfighting rather than the micromanagement distractions. It would have been great for CT..
These features that would be the same regardless of the plane, like the linda blair and/or xyzG limitations on head positions could be an exception, though. It's going to be hairy to model the exact limitations for each different flight regime, for each different cockpit, imo.
I agree with your points- they crossed my mind as well. I don't expect HTC to remodel the pilot, Iwas mainly trying to point out that factors other than plane modeling could easily be skewing the performance envelope of the planes we fly. If I could drive my truck from the comfort of my chair at home I'm confident I could get it to do things I would never imagine even trying if I was behind the wheel myself.
From a realism standpoint, I'd love to see a remodeled pilot. Just as I'd love to see some wind in the MA. I can also see the points in not having wind, night, engine management, etc.
When the pilot-factor is removed from the planes, we're going to see some "altered reality". Of course, that may not be bad, it's just not realistic. For better or worse...
MtnMan
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G effects etc are one factor, planes in AH are dumbed down to their most basic degree of flight operations, hit E full throttle take off..
There are checklists-steps-procedures to every aspect of flying. AH has none of that including G effects to the degree you've mentioned (though a good idea) simply because it's designed to fit within the scope of a PC Game not a flight simulator. Where the focus is more on gunnery, then FM,procedures,atmosphere and G effects.
We don't even have variable atmosphere,clouds,wind,temp conditions and buffeting etc all planes fly as if they are on rails. So that any newbie can take off and shoot stuff.
Yes they could add extra Pilot G effects as you've described or they could move aircraft operations from gamey to simulator. But that would never happen as it would require complete redesign of every aircraft to include the kind of detail you see in pro-addon aircraft for MSFS.
As for the "This is coming as a result of a discussion in another thread questioning plane performance. Specifically the point was made about gear being deployed and retracted within seconds, but that got me thinking about other things..."
That discussion was more specifically to the point of the F4Us ability to dump gear in a second use it as a air brake,dump full flaps and still being able to maintain a level of control that's simply overmodeled and abused. Nothing to do with the overall point being made of "all aircraft" being able to do this as they can't. It's a F4U only attribute.
<S>...-Gixer
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Great post mtn.
We have enough real pilots on here. Imagine flying around, pulling some G's, and then having to take your hand off the throttle to find the flap handle, and position it to the position you want it in. Now, imagine cranking 5 or 6 G's and doing that. Now imagine cranking 5 or 6 G's, looking behind you, inverted, and doing it.
Yep, sure is alot easier to just have those two little buttons on my HOTAS for 'flaps up' and 'flaps down'.
DIDN'T THE F4F, AND A COUPLE JAP PLANES have automatic combat flaps? :noid
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:aok I like the idea of making it harder to look around while pulling high G's. :pray Let it come to the game.
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Okay, one thing I've noticed, I think we tend to have too much control authority at too high a speed at some airplanes. There are many airplanes, like the 109, that were supposed to get very heavy controls at high IAS, but you can easily pull into the blackout in the 109 until past 400mph IAS. Since these kind of speeds are practical only from a powerdive, control stiffness has very little negative impact on a smart 109 pilot, or that of any other aircraft that historically had this sort of defect. I think this factor can effect gameplay in ways contrary to history, example, the relative effectiveness of the 110 in BoB scenarios vs. its more or less sitting duck status in the BoB.
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icons makes life too easy
having a neon sign ontop of your plane makes sneaks so much harder
60% of all successful kills where when the pilot never saw his enemy IRL
In another competing game they have low icon ranges (under d10 for enemy or so depending on scenario, and only few or no range icons) for scenarios.
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As for the "This is coming as a result of a discussion in another thread questioning plane performance. Specifically the point was made about gear being deployed and retracted within seconds, but that got me thinking about other things..."
That discussion was more specifically to the point of the F4Us ability to dump gear in a second use it as a air brake,dump full flaps and still being able to maintain a level of control that's simply overmodeled and abused. Nothing to do with the overall point being made of "all aircraft" being able to do this as they can't. It's a F4U only attribute.
<S>...-Gixer
That's why I answered the gear question there (where it was brought up) but took my tangent here, where gear deployment wasn't brought up.
And it's not an F4U only thing. It's game wide. List an airplane where deploying gear or flaps at the approved airspeed doesn't result in a near-instantaneous effect of the gear or flaps being deployed. Show me an airplane that doesn't remain stable as a result of same. Show me a plane that has an air brake that can't use that to slow down, or that loses control as a result of doing so. You're aware that the gear on the F4U is an air brake right? Is it abusive to use it as such?
You seem confidant in your accusations of the F4U being overmodeled. Any proof? Going by gut instincts? Second hand accounts? Preconceived notions based on nicknames (Ensign Eliminator, or Sweetheart of Okinawa). Or do you have something more? If you have anything reliable and factual, please present it. It's been argued enough without any substantial data to support a change. I for one would welcome any realistic changes to any of the flight models. Do tell, what should the level of control be for the Hog?
Your post makes it appear to me that you're arguing that aspects of the game are dumbed down, but that other aspects are too (the F4U flight model)? And that others aren't (all the other fight models)?
MtnMan
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DIDN'T THE F4F, AND A COUPLE JAP PLANES have automatic combat flaps? :noid
The flaps on the F4U (once deployed) should blow back up as airspeed increases, and return to their down position as airspeed decreases. Would I find it useful to have my flaps blow up like that, and then return to the down position as I slowed? Sure! In that respect, an argument could be made that the flaps on the F4U are UNDER-modeled.
Yes, several other airplanes in WWII had that feature as well. (N1K?)
With our already reduced pilot workload, I'm not so sure that modeling that is necessary, but it would be neat from a realism standpoint.
MtnMan
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icons makes life too easy
having a neon sign ontop of your plane makes sneaks so much harder
60% of all successful kills where when the pilot never saw his enemy IRL
In another competing game they have low icon ranges (under d10 for enemy or so depending on scenario, and only few or no range icons) for scenarios.
be nice if HTC can make it possible for CMs to be able to turn all icons off for like scenarios, FSO, snapshots SEC, etc it would be awesome
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I'd LOVE to have my auto-blowback/drop flaps. Imagine the whines tho from people who already don't understand the F4U's flap modelling. :D
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On the other hand, in real life, most real pilots would have a tough time pulling 4 or 5 G's in the real planes. I think the P-51 takes about 50 pounds on the stick per extra G, so a 5 G turn would take about 200 pounds of pressure on the stick. Try doing that maneuver for a few second and you will quickly run out of ability to get even a couple G's out of your plane, unless you're in real good shape.
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The flaps on the F4U (once deployed) should blow back up as airspeed increases, and return to their down position as airspeed decreases. Would I find it useful to have my flaps blow up like that, and then return to the down position as I slowed? Sure! In that respect, an argument could be made that the flaps on the F4U are UNDER-modeled.
Yes, several other airplanes in WWII had that feature as well. (N1K?)
With our already reduced pilot workload, I'm not so sure that modeling that is necessary, but it would be neat from a realism standpoint.
MtnMan
i was only asking about the auto flaps out of curiousity. the only really bad thing about flaps right now, as modeled, is the fact that they retract automaticlly. i don't like that. i prefer to do it myself.....and if i forget....well, then i guess i'd suffer the failure, as they break, right?
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It should happen only if the historical aircraft allowed it. If they didn't then forget to retract your flaps at your own risk. :D
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Last night at work I weighed my head...
MtnMan
I can't believe I'm the first to say it: "PROVE IT!"
Post the pics of your head on a scale!!! :rofl
I giggled through two pages of replies picturing your head on a scale at work. For gawd's sake, what the heck did your coworkers say? The usual? "What? Him? No problem, he'll stop when his break is over."
Other than that, your post was insightful, original, and thought-provoking. Great stuff.
HONK!
Gooss
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I can't believe I'm the first to say it: "PROVE IT!"
Post the pics of your head on a scale!!! :rofl
I giggled through two pages of replies picturing your head on a scale at work. For gawd's sake, what the heck did your coworkers say? The usual? "What? Him? No problem, he'll stop when his break is over."
Other than that, your post was insightful, original, and thought-provoking. Great stuff.
HONK!
Gooss
Ahhhahahaha .... Man .... now theres a good since of humor.
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that is a good point :aok
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I can't believe I'm the first to say it: "PROVE IT!"
Post the pics of your head on a scale!!! :rofl
I giggled through two pages of replies picturing your head on a scale at work. For gawd's sake, what the heck did your coworkers say? The usual? "What? Him? No problem, he'll stop when his break is over."
Other than that, your post was insightful, original, and thought-provoking. Great stuff.
HONK!
Gooss
What, you think it's odd to weigh your head/neck, and arm at work?
BTW mtnman was it your left or right arm.
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Would be nice if this was implemented, however I don't think it will be.
Fears of running customers away...
I'm anal retentive about realism but a lot of people aren't.
There are a lot of things not realistic in this game. lets start out with....it's a game.
The fight models are not realistic. Many of them are either over modeled or under modeled to make for a more even playing field. At one time they may have been closer to the real thing but complainers have changed that.
How many stage flaps does a real spit have?
How fast can a f6 go in level flight?
Why is that when you pull just slightly back on the stick in a 51 do the rounds fall like they were cannon being fired at 2 G? It's not that way when using other 50's in different planes.
If your plane's engine was on fire how long could you stay in a fight..1 more kill? 2?
How many planes had rear view mirrors?
Would a tank shell, bomb or rocket really ricochet off a tank or cv?
If you walked over to a CV window could you look up or behind you?
Can B26's really go 440 miles an hour in a dive without breaking their wings off?
Now if your talking about being as real as possible with the plane skins.. I think you have the right game :) God forbid a non real one should enter the game like the black P38 skin did awhile back.
Just my 2 cents and I love the game the way it almost is
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There are a lot of things not realistic in this game. lets start out with....it's a game.
....How many stage flaps does a real spit have?
Umm 1, just like in AH. You're just joking right, not attempting to humiliate yourself in public?
As for you other realism dweebs, I'm prepared to hire myself out to aid in your realistic AH experience. I'll happily spray WD40 in your eyes and bring my own large calibre pistol to recreate those 'special' moments.
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I can't believe I'm the first to say it: "PROVE IT!"
Post the pics of your head on a scale!!! :rofl
I giggled through two pages of replies picturing your head on a scale at work. For gawd's sake, what the heck did your coworkers say? The usual? "What? Him? No problem, he'll stop when his break is over."
Other than that, your post was insightful, original, and thought-provoking. Great stuff.
HONK!
Gooss
Hehe, it's about time someone picked up on that! I was purposely vague to see if I'd get a response, lol! We have a scale at work mounted in a pit so it's flush with the floor, used to weigh 55 gallon barrels on carts. I just tossed a sheet of cardboard on it (the scale had ink on it) and layed down so I could use the scale like a pillow... One of my co-workers was giving me an odd look, so I asked him if he'd read off the weight for me. He did, and was still giving me a quizical look, so I slid over and weighed my right arm...
He says "Ok, I should know better than to ask this from you of all people, but, WTF?" I said "Nothing much, just curious what shipping is going to cost..." and left it at that. Prior to that, at our shift safety meeting, statistics were brought up regarding the number of murders committed at the workplace each year. I figured that was an easier explanation than that I was trying to figure something out about a game...
MtnMan
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we pretend to fl;y WWII planes having a FBW system, JHMCS, Link 16 real-time info and HOTAS environment and a fly model that forgives a lot of mistakes.
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There are a lot of things not realistic in this game. lets start out with....it's a game.
The fight models are not realistic. Many of them are either over modeled or under modeled to make for a more even playing field. At one time they may have been closer to the real thing but complainers have changed that.
Examples pls or this is just so much hyperbole.
How many stage flaps does a real spit have?
2, up or down...just like in the game. However do we use them realistically is another question.
How fast can a f6 go in level flight?
To my understanding it is modeled with the pitot tube error.
Why is that when you pull just slightly back on the stick in a 51 do the rounds fall like they were cannon being fired at 2 G? It's not that way when using other 50's in different planes.
Relevancy... how fast you are going relates to how stick movement needed to pull excess g. See mustangs usually like to stay fast.
If your plane's engine was on fire how long could you stay in a fight..1 more kill? 2?
I've heard that some pilots have died because of failure to get the hell out.
How many planes had rear view mirrors?
Many, and I've heard tell due to vibration they were all but useless. If you see it in the mirror too late.
Would a tank shell, bomb or rocket really ricochet off a tank or cv?
Why do you think they try and make the armor so thick?
If you walked over to a CV window could you look up or behind you?
Point?
Can B26's really go 440 miles an hour in a dive without breaking their wings off?
I've heard stories of B26s using a shallow dive to escape pursuers that would have caught them in lvl flight.
Now if your talking about being as real as possible with the plane skins.. I think you have the right game :) God forbid a non real one should enter the game like the black P38 skin did awhile back.
Zomg 1 slipped through...the sky is falling.
Just my 2 cents and I love the game the way it almost is
While I agree on the premise the game is not perfect. There are much better things to pick at.
Flaps auto retracting/deploying if so equipped.
Perked ords.... just how often did American fighters carry 1000 lb bombs?
Looopty loop drones still staying in formation.
ect ect ect.
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Gawd Tool.
It's not pretty but here goes.
How many stage flaps does a real spit have? Two, up and down
How fast can a f6 go in level flight? 611 kph-380mph-330kts
Why is that when you pull just slightly back on the stick in a 51 do the rounds fall like they were cannon being fired at 2 G? It's not that way when using other 50's in different planes. It's not the rounds falling but the plane moving away from the vector in which the rounds are travelling. I does happen in all aircraft under the conditions you describe.
If your plane's engine was on fire how long could you stay in a fight..1 more kill? 2? IIRC in AH it's not the engine on fire but the fuel in the aircraft. The duration of the fire IRL is determinate of many factors such as quantity of fuel, type of material surrounding the structure, the strength of the structure and speed of the aircraft. In AH it's difficult to model all of these factors into a workable system so we get a pre determined time to failure of the burning component. If it's burning and still shooting keep firing at it. It will die.
How many planes had rear view mirrors? Many, but HT has already told us that to model mirrors into the game would be ineffective for most players and an FR killer for the rest. Not going to happen anytime soon.
Would a tank shell, bomb or rocket really ricochet off a tank or cv? Yes. It happened many times and continues to happen today. It has been well documented on paper and on film.
If you walked over to a CV window could you look up or behind you? Probably. All of the navy vessels I've been on have transparent windows.
Can B26's really go 440 miles an hour in a dive without breaking their wings off? The B26 was noted for it's excellent diving speed. One dive was clocked at a true speed of 560 mph, though indicated air speed was closer to 400
Now if your talking about being as real as possible with the plane skins.. I think you have the right game :) God forbid a non real one should enter the game like the black P38 skin did awhile back. I really cannot comment. The black '38 was one of my favourite skins for it when I had occasion to fly a light bomber. I didn't have any idea that it wasn't an authenticated skin.
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Oh wow
There are MANY cans of worms in this game..
aka Unresolvable issues..
Effect of G on pilots, would open a MAJOR new one...
No two pilots are the same, physical conditioning,
mental discipline, blah, blah..
How could ya POSSIBLY model that? Ya Can't!!!
I worry about the "game" becoming so anally retentive
about "realism", that it becomes unplayable..
I suppose that someone could develop a "G simulator",
as a game peripheral.. Possibly a band that wraps
around your neck, and uses an airpump to pop your head
like a zit if ya pull too many G's... LOL!!!
C'mon Guys, you DO know that this IS a game right???
Dump your Ord, and lighten up!!!
<S>RC
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(http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii275/zoozoo13/HQ2-1-1.jpg)
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- Planes that had auto retracting flaps should have them, and planes that didn't shouldn't.
Pilot g effect would be really cool.
Pilot wound effects would be good also. Different wounds have different results.
It's a game, but they could add a balanced version of g's and pilot wound effects so as not to ruin game play, but at least change it up a bit.
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Was Just thinking more about this...
As a peripheral
Hmmmm, what if you used a modern G/suit, combined
with a supply of compressed air? Between the two you could
use a, (pc interactive valve) that would compress or release
air press to the suit... In that way, when you pull G's in the game,
you feel the press on your body... Feedback from the suit could
delay blackout on the screen, (Muscle Tension to prevent blackout)..
Just like real pilots train to do...
WOW, that might do it.. Because it wouldn't be generic to all...
YOUR actual physical attributes would effect YOUR gameplay..
Hmmm, get a patent, that might be popular...
RC
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And when the valve malfunctions and squeezes too tight, you wind up looking like zoozoo's picture.
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Was Just thinking more about this...
As a peripheral
Hmmmm, what if you used a modern G/suit, combined
with a supply of compressed air? Between the two you could
use a, (pc interactive valve) that would compress or release
air press to the suit... In that way, when you pull G's in the game,
you feel the press on your body... Feedback from the suit could
delay blackout on the screen, (Muscle Tension to prevent blackout)..
Just like real pilots train to do...
WOW, that might do it.. Because it wouldn't be generic to all...
YOUR actual physical attributes would effect YOUR gameplay..
Hmmm, get a patent, that might be popular...
RC
BUT then what about the basement trolls? they'd have an almost zero tolerence to g forces. :rofl
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The spit was just thrown in there to make some wonder. The spit only has two settings...up and down.
I read somewhere that the brits did want 3 stages at one point and in order to take off from a carrier somewhere. They had to wedge a block of wood in the flaps so they would not go down all the way to give it enough lift for take off from a short deck.
The F6 is modeled slower than the real thing and the 51 is modeled to not shoot as straight as it once did... so I have seen and 51 pilots like AKDG have agreed.
An engine fire in any single engined WWII fighter would put you out of commission within a few seconds due to smoke, heat, oil and panic. We have black outs for G's, it would be cool to get red outs to simulate heat.
I'd imagine a small percentage of ords were dud's in real life but in this game bombs and rockets should not bounce off tanks. I've had only one bomb bounce that I know of but plenty of rockets in the previous patch. I gave up trying to hit them with rockets for the most part. I did hit one a few days ago but all I got was a bullet hit sprite and an assist. My first rocket hit assist ever.
All in all the game could be better but is just fine as is for the most part. Don't be fooled, HTC can and does play with #'s frequently, they can break or fix anything they want and could probably add in pilot G effect...not that I want pilot G affect :o
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The spit was just thrown in there to make some wonder. The spit only has two settings...up and down.
I read somewhere that the brits did want 3 stages at one point and in order to take off from a carrier somewhere. They had to wedge a block of wood in the flaps so they would not go down all the way to give it enough lift for take off from a short deck.nev er knew that about the spits...i thought they just managed with single position flaps....
The F6 is modeled slower than the real thing and the 51 is modeled to not shoot as straight as it once did... so I have seen and 51 pilots like AKDG have agreed.had no clue on these either. i still think the updated f6 turns better, although it could be my imagination. the updated engine oil hit on the other hand......i can't see crap through the windscreen. to land, i had to slip her all the way down final, till over the runway, then let her straighten out, watching the runway through the corners. on another occasion, i flew runway heading to lead a wingie in.
An engine fire in any single engined WWII fighter would put you out of commission within a few seconds due to smoke, heat, oil and panic. We have black outs for G's, it would be cool to get red outs to simulate heat.i thought the fires we got here were fuel tank fires?
I'd imagine a small percentage of ords were dud's in real life but in this game bombs and rockets should not bounce off tanks. I've had only one bomb bounce that I know of but plenty of rockets in the previous patch. I gave up trying to hit them with rockets for the most part. I did hit one a few days ago but all I got was a bullet hit sprite and an assist. My first rocket hit assist ever.
All in all the game could be better but is just fine as is for the most part. Don't be fooled, HTC can and does play with #'s frequently, they can break or fix anything they want and could probably add in pilot G effect...not that I want pilot G affect :o
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Would be nice if this was implemented, however I don't think it will be.
Fears of running customers away...
I'm anal retentive about realism but a lot of people aren't.
WW2OL has a crappy version of pilot modeling or at least used to when I played, not sure if it's still in the game.
ack-ack
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It should happen only if the historical aircraft allowed it. If they didn't then forget to retract your flaps at your own risk. :D
Unfortunately, the masses need to be coddled and we'll see no such things as a more realistic flap model.
ack-ack
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I'd like to see mandatory realistic gunsight modelling, too: planes and vehicles in game should use whatever sight they were equipped with historically. But I'm sure to have VETERANS jumping on me for suggesting such a thing, too. ;)
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I can't believe I'm the first to say it: "PROVE IT!"
Post the pics of your head on a scale!!! :rofl
I giggled through two pages of replies picturing your head on a scale at work. For gawd's sake, what the heck did your coworkers say? The usual? "What? Him? No problem, he'll stop when his break is over."
Other than that, your post was insightful, original, and thought-provoking. Great stuff.
HONK!
He's a mountain man he just weighed himself then cut off an arm and weighed himself again!
As for the head and neck,well kinda self explanatory... :devil
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I'd like to see mandatory realistic gunsight modelling, too: planes and vehicles in game should use whatever sight they were equipped with historically. But I'm sure to have VETERANS jumping on me for suggesting such a thing, too. ;)
honestly, i would like that. its simple enough, one small change (but only up near 260 or 270 planes/gv to do) but itd add a lot more realism in such a small way. sure, i think if you didnt like the sight you could change it, but the default for each plane would be historically accurate, im game for this, nice idea! :salute
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I'm not expecting it, tho. I've been asking HTC to fix the SIZE of the microscopic gunsights in the F4Us (should be about twice as large in size at the default head position) every update since we got the 1A. :p
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...I've been giving some thought to how the modeling of our AH pilot (and also joystick set-up) could lead us to being able to get our planes to perform at a higher level than is realistic or even possible. As in- maybe we're attributing perceived errors to the FM, when the "pilot model" could easily be at least partially to blame.
...Even beyond the obvious questions of exertion, fatigue, etc...
...My joystick is set up with my flaps on a switch on my throttle that I can control with my index finger. This allows me to control both at the same time, which from what I can tell, shouldn't even be possible in the F4U. For me, not only is it possible, it's easy and second-nature. Even under G-load I can easily manipulate both controls- again, I doubt that would be possible in the real plane.
...Also, under G-load my head should be more difficult to move, and even impossible to hold in certain positions. In a high G turn, should I be able to rapidly transition between looking over my right shoulder, to looking over my left, to looking straight up, while dropping another notch of flaps, reducing throttle, kicking rudder and not jostling the stick too much? Keep in mind I'm not wearing bulky clothing, gloves etc, while playing at home. I'm not scared, I don't have to do #2, and I'm not stiff from being in one position and cold for hours at a shot.
...My point is this- even if the FM is correct for any particular plane, I should be able to get performance out of it that would be impossible in real life. I effectively have a robot flying my plane, programmed by my thoughts. The physical limitations aren't modeled, and I have the luxury of setting up my controls in a manner that easily allows me to perform actions impossible to perform in real life.
Would it be worthwhile/valuable to have a more accurately modeled pilot? Would it be difficult? Would it unfairly restrict people new to the game? A time-delay between inputs for certain function (throttle and flaps, for example), and slowing down the transition between views as G's increased might add realism. Also, having certain functions "frozen" under high G's (ability to switch between looking forward and checking high six while experiencing high G's?) Or even modeling fatigue by slowing down control inputs as time under G's builds...
To respond to Mtn's original comments: You're absolutely correct about the effect the stress and strain has in RL and AH doesn't present the same issues but then I don't know how it could. A big difference is the ability to use HOTAS whereas no WWII aircraft had this unless you want to consider having a trigger and mike switch on the stick HOTAS. Gear, Flaps, Cowl flaps, Mixture, trim, etc., etc., are located throughout the cockpit. Even today I know of no airplanes that have all these in a HOTAS configuration but the things you'd need in a fight are. On the other hand, given the fact that the only option is either a HOTAS setup or using the keyboard I vote for retaining full programmability so you can set up your own HOTAS.
In RL can you look around at 6G? Sure, sort of. The way it's done is to preposition yourself before you pull the G's. For instance, let's say you're making a neutral pass and intend to go into a left turn. You see you're going to pass him left to left so you slide in your seat to the right and twist to the left a bit so you can follow him as he passes, once you're in position THEN you pull the 6 G's. You may not be able to swing your head around much but if you're in the right position you can follow him with your eyes and you can see alot that way. Also, the idea of continuous 6G turns isn't realistic, it's usually something like 6G for a few seconds then unload and roll at low G then put on the G again. You use those times of low G to reposition, check six, do a belly check, check your fuel/alt, etc., and do any of these other things you'd need to do.
Extended fights are something that can't really be addressed realistically in AH. In RL a high-G fight is exhausting even with powered flight controls, G suits and cockpit airconditioning. If you get into a fight that lasts for more than a few minutes or a series of back to back fights you're drenched in sweat, your muscles ache and it gets harder and harder to handle the G. The tradeoff is that your opponent is in exactly the same condition so it sort of evens out. In WWII this would probably be an even more dramatic dropoff in pilot performance given the non-boosted controls, no AC and terrible control ergonomics.
Bottom line is that it would be almost impossible to realistically model the physical "pilot" in a way that would be meaningful and we're not going to get full simulator cockpits in the near future so we have to go with what we have. Does this mean we all get more out of the planes than a RL WWII pilot would? Absolutely but then we don't fly them the same way anyway. Fear of death is a big motivator in your decision making that just dosen't transfer into a game so there's only so much realism you're going to get anyway.
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On the subject of looking around at G's, I was at space camp a while back, riding the centrifuge to 4 G's, when all of a sudden I thought I heard a voice talking to me, looked around, and ended up having to stop. I dashed out of the door, ralphed my roast beef sandwich and fries into the nearest trashcan, and fell asleep on the ground for about fifteen minutes (as said by the other kids). So if we can't have G force feelings of sluggishness, we should at least feel some resistances of the looking around.
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Bottom line is that it would be almost impossible to realistically model the physical "pilot" in a way that would be meaningful and we're not going to get full simulator cockpits in the near future so we have to go with what we have.
This is the definitive post on the topic. Thanks for the perspective Mace. Nothing like hearing from someone that's already bought the T-shirt...
:aok
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The fight models are not realistic. Many of them are either over modeled or under modeled to make for a more even playing field. At one time they may have been closer to the real thing but complainers have changed that.
How many stage flaps does a real spit have?
How fast can a f6 go in level flight?
Why is that when you pull just slightly back on the stick in a 51 do the rounds fall like they were cannon being fired at 2 G? It's not that way when using other 50's in different planes.
100 Krusty's I say!
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100 Krusty's I say!
Poor Krusty. You know that one's gonna stick.
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100 Krusty's I say!
:rofl
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On the subject of looking around at G's, I was at space camp a while back, riding the centrifuge to 4 G's, when all of a sudden I thought I heard a voice talking to me, looked around, and ended up having to stop. I dashed out of the door, ralphed my roast beef sandwich and fries into the nearest trashcan, and fell asleep on the ground for about fifteen minutes (as said by the other kids). So if we can't have G force feelings of sluggishness, we should at least feel some resistances of the looking around.
It's not unusual for someone to become nauseous when first feeling the effects of high G but for most people that goes away. I got sick my first five flights in the training command but never got sick again in over 2,000 hours regardless of how many G's I pulled. With regard to creating some sort of "resistance" to looking around the question remains how that would be done and how effectively you would be able to simulate RL. There is a huge difference in feeling actual resistance to movement under G and just slowing or locking the views while you pull. I just don't see this as realistic. Also, even with your head locked in one position (RL) you can still move your eyes which gives you an effective 180deg field of regard without ever moving your head. If you lock the view in AH you'd be limited to 90deg so it would be far more constrained that RL. Also, the tunnel vision effect in AH does a good job of limiting what you can see to the center of your vision. This is fairly realistic in that you do get tunnel vision under high G. Even here though you have a problem because that tunnel you're looking for is centered on the particular view you've selected with the Hat Switch while in RL you can usually keep the target in the center of the tunnel. This is one of the areas where Track IR lends quite a bit of realism to the game as you can still maintain good sight even though you're maneuvering at high G in a dynamic environment and aren't limited to specific view angles.
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Mace2004: Your description of G pulling and fighting has brought back a lot of memories.
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I'm sure there's a way to implement such a thing in the game. Maybe by locking out operation of flaps when flying under high G loads, or making it easier to black out under sustained Gs? Maybe exhaustion could be simulated by the virtual pilot's ability to pull Gs being reduced? As the pilot is more exhausted he blacks out or gets tunnel vision at a lower and lower threshold under instantaneous Gs. Additionally, the pilot would also black out sooner under sustained Gs, until eventually he's so "tired" he can no longer tolerate significant acceleration.
This could also be varied by aircraft to account for things such as boosted controls and pressurized G-suits.
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IIRC the blackouts already do become more frequent and longer in duration if you persist with them.
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What about making it so you don't have to go into full blackout? What if just pulling sufficient G's to make your vision tunnel is enough to trigger the process?
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I can't wait till someone comes up with a "Bio-port". Instead of using a joystick you just jab a USB Bio-plug into your belly button (or where ever).
Think of the posibilities for realism with something like that!!!
<stares off into the distance>
<eyes glaze over>
<big smile forms on face>
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I can't wait till someone comes up with a "Bio-port". Instead of using a joystick you just jab a USB Bio-plug into your belly button (or where ever).
Think of the posibilities for realism with something like that!!!
That would certainly revolutionize Internet Porn...
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(O)(O) ----------------> direct interface detected. Boobies sequence initialized....