Aces High Bulletin Board

General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Anaxogoras on November 10, 2008, 11:14:46 AM

Title: Mk 108: the unter-cannon
Post by: Anaxogoras on November 10, 2008, 11:14:46 AM
First film, I blow off the rear fuselage of a Seafire, and get an assist when a friendly shoots his wing off afterward.

Second film, a direct 30mm hit on a Spit9 that proceeds to fly off as if nothing happened.  I was later credited with an assist, so the hit was recorded on his front end, it just wasn't enough to take off any parts.

The Mk 108 is nerfed.

http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?zm0awdidtnq (http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?zm0awdidtnq)
http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?mzoww03jmoj (http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?mzoww03jmoj)
Title: Re: Mk 108: the unter-cannon
Post by: TrueKill on November 10, 2008, 11:35:53 AM
IMO once a plane has a whole wing or its tail missing it should act like a friendly when someone shoots at it. You shoot a plane that's already down you killshoot yourself.

Second film should have been an instent pilot kill.
Title: Re: Mk 108: the unter-cannon
Post by: Karnak on November 10, 2008, 11:41:34 AM
IMO once a plane has a whole wing or its tail missing it should act like a friendly when someone shoots at it. You shoot a plane that's already down you killshoot yourself.
I don't think it should kill shooter you, but the game should disregard any damage done after a wing or tail is removed when calculating who gets the kill.
Title: Re: Mk 108: the unter-cannon
Post by: TrueKill on November 10, 2008, 11:51:34 AM
I don't think it should kill shooter you, but the game should disregard any damage done after a wing or tail is removed when calculating who gets the kill.


That would work to but acting as a kill shooter would make those tards who do it to steal kills think twice about it.
Title: Re: Mk 108: the unter-cannon
Post by: Bodhi on November 10, 2008, 11:54:14 AM
Finish off your kills and you won't have to worry about them adding new code.
Title: Re: Mk 108: the unter-cannon
Post by: Anaxogoras on November 10, 2008, 12:03:54 PM
Finish off your kills and you won't have to worry about them adding new code.

This thread is supposed to be about the anemic Mk 108.  Let's keep it on track.
Title: Re: Mk 108: the unter-cannon
Post by: TrueKill on November 10, 2008, 12:12:35 PM
Finish off your kills and you won't have to worry about them adding new code.


Once a wing or tail is gone that plane is finished. If we didn't have people that shoot at them when they are floating down to earth then we wouldn't have to worry about wasting ammo on a dead plane so you don't get it stolen from you.
Title: Re: Mk 108: the unter-cannon
Post by: hubsonfire on November 10, 2008, 12:14:49 PM
Pic of the moment of impact.

(http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii244/AHhub/tater.jpg)

Not even a scratch. Nice.
Title: Re: Mk 108: the unter-cannon
Post by: TrueKill on November 10, 2008, 12:18:37 PM
What games you play on stream hubs?
Title: Re: Mk 108: the unter-cannon
Post by: Bruv119 on November 10, 2008, 12:19:28 PM
sometimes I get rubber bullets on JP players.

Hthide,  busa etc,   Get solid hits and they fly on willy nilly.
Title: Re: Mk 108: the unter-cannon
Post by: Lusche on November 10, 2008, 12:23:35 PM
This thread is supposed to be about the anemic Mk 108. 

The MK 108 is far from being anemic. What happened to you is the result of several factors, all of them not rooting in the cannon used but resulting from other issues, for example how the credit for kills is being awarded.

That being said, the Mk 108 is one of the most potent cannons in game, only other 37mm guns have a similar one hit - one kill capability.

In current year, almost 50% of my fighter kills have been made with MK 108 equipped rides - ~3500 out of ~7400 kills in. Not more than  4-5 enemy fighters have been able to fly after a single MK 108 hit by me, all hits to the engine. That's a pretty low percentage for an anemic cannon ;)
Title: Re: Mk 108: the unter-cannon
Post by: Stang on November 10, 2008, 12:24:22 PM
I've had this happen as well with the 108.  More recently it's happened to me with the 37mm in the P39.  Highly annoying lol.  I rarely film so I've never caught one to send to HTC... and if the server supposedly keeps sending damage info until you get it and your plane takes the damage, I'd love to hear the explanation for this...
Title: Re: Mk 108: the unter-cannon
Post by: BaldEagl on November 10, 2008, 12:24:49 PM
IMO once a plane has a whole wing or its tail missing it should act like a friendly when someone shoots at it. You shoot a plane that's already down you killshoot yourself.

No... then Steve and I wouldn't think about stealing kills from one another.   ;)
Title: Re: Mk 108: the unter-cannon
Post by: wnt2 on November 10, 2008, 12:42:13 PM
Don't know if it's AH's viewer or what, but when I slow it down and watch the shot from the first film, it appears that the round passes just in front of the left wing...anyone else see this?
Title: Re: Mk 108: the unter-cannon
Post by: Shuffler on November 10, 2008, 12:46:04 PM
Pic of the moment of impact.

(http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii244/AHhub/tater.jpg)

Not even a scratch. Nice.

Ahh he hit the pilot in the head.... could be hard headed pilot syndrome.
Title: Re: Mk 108: the unter-cannon
Post by: hubsonfire on November 10, 2008, 12:59:21 PM
What games you play on stream hubs?

[hijack] DoD Source mainly, played around with RO and HL2 DM a bit, but I've uninstalled them for the moment.[/hijack]

I've mostly had good luck with the larger cannons, but occasionally hit someone squarely in the cockpit, engine, wing root, etc and watch them fly off, leaving me wondering what's wrong. I even shot an F6 directly in the nose, head on from less than 1K, with a Firefly- he started leaking coolant or fuel, but flew away and landed just fine.

It certainly seems as though there's something amiss with either the big guns, or the damage model in general.
Title: Re: Mk 108: the unter-cannon
Post by: PFactorDave on November 10, 2008, 01:06:53 PM
I think everyone falls victim to "Rubber Bullet Syndrome" occaisionally.  Hazards of online gaming.
Title: Re: Mk 108: the unter-cannon
Post by: hubsonfire on November 10, 2008, 01:10:57 PM
It's not supposed to be possible in AH (assuming you have Vsync enabled).
Title: Re: Mk 108: the unter-cannon
Post by: Curlew on November 10, 2008, 01:15:40 PM
Pic of the moment of impact.

(http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii244/AHhub/tater.jpg)

Not even a scratch. Nice.

I have disocvered that any hit behind the cockpit and infront of the tail, in that mid fusilage, really does nothing, all yiou can hope for is puting enough rounds in it to make it explode, i have also had bad luck, especialy at that angel
Title: Re: Mk 108: the unter-cannon
Post by: Wedge1126 on November 10, 2008, 01:17:25 PM
It's not supposed to be possible in AH (assuming you have Vsync enabled).
What does Vsync have to do with "Rubber Bullet Syndrome"?
Title: Re: Mk 108: the unter-cannon
Post by: hubsonfire on November 10, 2008, 01:44:23 PM
You'd have to ask HTC about that one for a definitive answer. It involves how things work at the hardware level, and some aspects of the game code and position updates that I don't fully understand.

The packets that your PC transmits to the server, which relays them to your opponent, aren't dropped if they can't immediately be sent- the game keeps trying to send them until they are received by your opponent- so that there can't really be "rubber bullet syndrome", as it's been explained to us, except in the case of Vsync being disabled, and extremely high frames per second being rendered on your front end.
Title: Re: Mk 108: the unter-cannon
Post by: Bodhi on November 10, 2008, 02:47:09 PM

Once a wing or tail is gone that plane is finished. If we didn't have people that shoot at them when they are floating down to earth then we wouldn't have to worry about wasting ammo on a dead plane so you don't get it stolen from you.

BS.  It's a game and that's how it works.  If you don't like the model don't play.

Personally I love stealing kills from people that will whine about it.
Title: Re: Mk 108: the unter-cannon
Post by: Spikes on November 10, 2008, 02:53:56 PM
IMO once a plane has a whole wing or its tail missing it should act like a friendly when someone shoots at it. You shoot a plane that's already down you killshoot yourself.

Second film should have been an instent pilot kill.
What if there's lag, or your already shooting at it? Killshoot yourself for the computers mistake..nice.

Like Karnak said, have it like COD, when the guys's dead but the body is falling or something, it does no damage even though it's still "alive" to a point (not lying on the ground).
Title: Re: Mk 108: the unter-cannon
Post by: Spikes on November 10, 2008, 03:24:59 PM
Pic of the moment of impact.

(http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii244/AHhub/tater.jpg)

Not even a scratch. Nice.
Sometimes computers have their faults, you know.
Title: Re: Mk 108: the unter-cannon
Post by: Anaxogoras on November 10, 2008, 03:48:40 PM
Sometimes computers have their faults, you know.

Not a computer error, I'm afraid.  The hit definitely registered on his machine because otherwise I wouldn't have received an assist message later.  This is an error in the game, in the way it models the Mk 108.
Title: Re: Mk 108: the unter-cannon
Post by: SectorNine50 on November 10, 2008, 03:55:52 PM
I actually believe it's where you hit the A/C.  It seems like it's behind the cockpit, but in front of where the tail section separates in the damage model.
Title: Re: Mk 108: the unter-cannon
Post by: Xasthur on November 10, 2008, 06:59:18 PM
The assist has nothing to do with the Mk 108. Look at the damage model as a 'point accumulation' system and each component has a limit of 100 points. If you're wingman is using .50 cal and he get hits on the wing, fuselage and tail section the points would be allocated like this, for example, wing = 60 damage points, fuselage = 40 points, tail section = 30 points. That's a total of 130 damage points allocated to your wingman for that enemy aircraft.

If you come along and put a 30mm round onto the wing, you're awarded 100 damage points and you see the structural failure of the aircraft. However, your wingman has already registered 130 damage points on the aircraft you disabled so he is awarded the kill.

The damage points accumulate to their maximum and the kill is awarded. If you hit an aircraft that only has 5 points left before it reaches the maximum you could it with a nuclear weapon and still get the assist because the system will only acknowledge the 5 points the aircraft had remaining before failure point was reached.

----------------

On to the second one.... the 30mm cannon, whilst devastating, is not an assured kill from a single round. It is possible for a round to pass through the fuselage and have the aircraft survive... I am pretty sure that I've seen a photo of a Spitfire with a gaping hole in the fuselage from a 30mm round.

Having said that, I have noticed several times lately that I have fighters fly on unabated after I hit them with 30mm and 20mm but this only happens in the Ta 152.

I have film on a 30mm hit on the wing root of a 190 A8 that flew on with no visible sign of damage. I put more rounds into that left wing and it still didn't come off... I had to hose it down with 30mm and 20mm to get it to break up. It did break up into lots of pieces, so clearly lots of hits registered... but it just seems odd that the same hits in a 109 would have killed it immediately. 30mm hits on the wing = instant death when I land those hits in a 109.
Title: Re: Mk 108: the unter-cannon
Post by: Anaxogoras on November 10, 2008, 08:07:31 PM
The assist has nothing to do with the Mk 108. Look at the damage model as a 'point accumulation' system and each component has a limit of 100 points. If you're wingman is using .50 cal and he get hits on the wing, fuselage and tail section the points would be allocated like this, for example, wing = 60 damage points, fuselage = 40 points, tail section = 30 points. That's a total of 130 damage points allocated to your wingman for that enemy aircraft.

If you come along and put a 30mm round onto the wing, you're awarded 100 damage points and you see the structural failure of the aircraft. However, your wingman has already registered 130 damage points on the aircraft you disabled so he is awarded the kill.

The damage points accumulate to their maximum and the kill is awarded. If you hit an aircraft that only has 5 points left before it reaches the maximum you could it with a nuclear weapon and still get the assist because the system will only acknowledge the 5 points the aircraft had remaining before failure point was reached.

What you're saying makes it sound like the damage model favors aircraft that rely on a high rof over those that rely on high lethality per round when it comes to awarding kills.

On to the second one.... the 30mm cannon, whilst devastating, is not an assured kill from a single round. It is possible for a round to pass through the fuselage and have the aircraft survive... I am pretty sure that I've seen a photo of a Spitfire with a gaping hole in the fuselage from a 30mm round.

I don't think AH models shells failing to detonate.
Title: Re: Mk 108: the unter-cannon
Post by: BnZs on November 10, 2008, 08:17:56 PM
I have noticed the same effect with Ostwind/FG vrs. Wirbel.

Get a ping that destroys (and out of WW range), get an "assist" because the wreckage followed a course that brought it into range of the WWs.

Its not that hard to understand why this happens.. Although the 30mm does massive damage to the part it pings, the 20mms or .50s or whatever have a higher ROF and you can lad far more hits AND damage in a given period of time, although that damage may well be scattered all across the target and thus not even rip off any parts.
Title: Re: Mk 108: the unter-cannon
Post by: Noir on November 10, 2008, 10:42:39 PM
lets face it the AH2 damage model is from the 80's
Title: Re: Mk 108: the unter-cannon
Post by: TrueKill on November 10, 2008, 11:21:20 PM
BS.  It's a game and that's how it works.  If you don't like the model don't play.

Personally I love stealing kills from people that will whine about it.



Thats just sad bodhi.
Title: Re: Mk 108: the unter-cannon
Post by: Xasthur on November 11, 2008, 06:36:52 PM
What you're saying makes it sound like the damage model favors aircraft that rely on a high rof over those that rely on high lethality per round when it comes to awarding kills.

I wouldn't say that.... I'd say it's easier to kill with 30mm than .50 cal. Think of all the components that aren't modelled in AH... Control surface lines/linkages, hydraulic lines etc etc. All of that stuff cannot be damaged by .50 cal fire, so you have to make sure that you put your rounds onto parts that will make plane crash quickly.

The damage model favours who ever gets the highest sum of damage first, that's all.

There are no assists if you get in first with the 30mm.

I know it's annoying to see a plane splinter into pieces from your well placed 30mm round only to get an assist for your trouble but look at it as the straw that broke the camels back...
Title: Re: Mk 108: the unter-cannon
Post by: Anaxogoras on November 12, 2008, 12:06:57 AM
There are no assists if you get in first with the 30mm.

You didn't watch my first film?  That Spit had absolutely zero damage before I hit him.  I had just taken off and he came in from above.  I was the first person to put any hits on him.
Title: Re: Mk 108: the unter-cannon
Post by: Xasthur on November 12, 2008, 04:21:22 AM
No, I didn't, sorry mate.

I'm surprised you got an assist if someone else finished it off.

They must have put a lot of rounds into it if that's the case.

Title: Re: Mk 108: the unter-cannon
Post by: TrueKill on November 12, 2008, 05:02:58 AM
Okay this is how it is with the assists. Each part of a plane has damage points 0-100. When there is enough damage to make that part go to 100 it falls off. Those points add up to who gets the kill and who gets assists. You got one hit on the tail and it fell off. That's 100 points to you. If you watch he takes the spits left wing off that's 100 points to him. He must have hit something other then that wing he took of thus giving him more then your 100 points and he got the kill.