Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Sincraft on January 13, 2009, 10:48:02 PM
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Can someone explain to me how hoing works? When I go in with someone, I've become rather good at getting kill shots and turning away, but many times the guy turns with me and everytime even though it appears we missed by 50+ feet, I see a collision msg. Sure enough, I fall out of the sky while the other guy ...smoking...flies on.
It appears that if the other guy hits you from the top or right side, you lose...so I just try to avoid the fight till I can get a familiar altitude with him to take it to a more 'proper' fight.
??
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sincraft. If you're able to reply back within the next 1/2 hour I'll meet you in the TA to go over this topic with you. That is if you have the time for it.
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I've logged from the TA for the evening, but the offer still stands. Feel free to PM me, or catch one of the other trainers.
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It looks like HOing threads are done with. Lets move back to the LA7 threads for a bit please :D
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It looks like HOing threads are done with. Lets move back to the LA7 threads for a bit please :D
...and arena caps. Don't forget about arena cap threads :D
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It is usually hard to know how much damage is caused by collision and how much by the enemy shooting at you in a HO situation.
Just remember that there is no such thing as getting HOed.
If it is a HO, you are also doing it, just as much as the enemy. Anything else is at most a front quarter shot and a failed evasion happening at the same time :)
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Word Up!!!!
Just remember that there is no such thing as getting HOed.
If it is a HO, you are also doing it, just as much as the enemy.
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If both pilots can take the shot at the same time its a ho. So dont pull the trigger!
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Why on earth would one point his plane right at the other one's face with no intention to pull the trigger? :rofl
Even more weird, what else can the enemy think if one points his guns at his face... "maybe that guy has no intention to shoot... maybe he is just pointing his guns at my face for some other reason" :huh
I'd say that if you decide to go for HO, absolutely always pull the trigger! If you decide not to pull the trigger, don't fly to anyone's face.
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Just remember that there is no such thing as getting HOed.
If it is a HO, you are also doing it, just as much as the enemy. Anything else is at most a front quarter shot and a failed evasion happening at the same time :)
and THAT boys and girls is what each and every ho'r will tell you. so you're damed if you do, damed if you don't.
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Forget about the HOHO go for the Cherry Pie!
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Well... I very seldom end up into a HO situation. I rather land my kills than risk it all for just one kill.
But when I do (e.g. plane badly damaged and no hope of getting back home, or fighting alone as an underdog against several enemies), it is my own decision to go for it.
Only those who feel victimized and die in their own HO:s bother whining about HO:s or call other players HO:ers :P
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Why would any one want to define it.....They might have to live by a standard if they did that... :devil
Typical definition is Both pilots have a gun solution at the same time......
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Why would any one want to define it.....They might have to live by a standard if they did that... :devil
Typical definition is Both pilots have a gun solution at the same time......
which is the hotards excuse. when you're merging them, they turn head on into you....with full intention of firing. you turn, slip, dive....whatever avoidence maneuver you choose.....you take ur guns off them. if your evasive was unsuccessful, and you call em on it, they call it a deflection shot, because you didn't have a guns solution. BS. it was a friggin ho. perhaps if they'd take the offers of help from the likes of murdr, hammer, and other trainers, they;d learn how to fight, and not need to ho in the first place.
friggin tards......... :mad: :furious
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If a hotard HOs and kills you, which one of you is the real "tard"?
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:pray
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If a hotard HOs and kills you, which one of you is the real "tard"?
the skillless tard that'd die if he missed the ho
:D
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You cant prove anyone is a 'hotard' because you dont know what their last thoughts are (were).
Example: "I better start shooting now because I cant win any other way."
Who would admit to that? :huh
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You cant prove anyone is a 'hotard' because you dont know what their last thoughts are (were).
Example: "I better start shooting now because I cant win any other way."
Who would admit to that? :huh
IN ALL SERIOUSNESS....
i think quite a few have in some of the ho threads.
also........i generally don't.......but will, if you do first.....like before i've tried whatever evasive......if i'm outnumbered heavily......if i'm defending against a horde........if i'm hurt, and no other shot presents itself......and finally, if i'm comming into a fight, and i happen to know who the other person is, and they're notorious for it. i didn't used to do it at all, but it's getting to the point that if i expect a good fihgt, i'm better off against the AI in offline mode. i've also noted that no one tries to ho in the TA. :D :aok
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I will whine about a HO if:
The guy tries to HO and only HO repeatedly even if it doesn't work.
A guy appears from nowhere and HO's me while I'm trying valiently to outfly the three other guys on my six.
I'm so low and slow I've momentarily lost manouverability and some tard comes in and HOs me (a HO picker).
It's not always your fault that you got HO'd. Fights aren't always one on one with E.
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I will whine about a HO if:
The guy tries to HO and only HO repeatedly even if it doesn't work.
A guy appears from nowhere and HO's me while I'm trying valiently to outfly the three other guys on my six.
I'm so low and slow I've momentarily lost manouverability and some tard comes in and HOs me (a HO picker).
It's not always your fault that you got HO'd. Fights aren't always one on one with E.
heh....
i had a guy in a spit9...i think it was last tour. me in a 38. 4 ho attempts. he could've easily outmaneuvered me, but insisted on the ho instead. on pass#4, i ho'd him back. we both died. :rofl
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IMO,
If you are merging/remerging and both fighters could put their nose on and fire with no problems, then they probably shouldn't, unless its a truly desperate situation for one of them (190A8 vs. La7 or the like). The outcome is just too likely to be unproductive for anyone.
Obviously there is a fuzzy area here, situations like scissors or high deflection shots it will occasionally be debatable.
People do however, exaggerate the ease with which a HO can be avoided. With some diving room or plenty of E to work with, can be done most of the time. In a slow fight on the deck, the MA being what it is, you should hose them down in return if they force you to it, to make sure the other guy doesn't get a scot-free kill.
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People do however, exaggerate the ease with which a HO can be avoided. With some diving room or plenty of E to work with, can be done most of the time. In a slow fight on the deck, the MA being what it is, you should hose them down in return if they force you to it, to make sure the other guy doesn't get a scot-free kill.
I merge nose to nose and am ho'd at 1000's of times each tour.
I can generally count on one hand how many times I actually get shot down by said ho'r. (probably two hands how many damage me to some degree, but it's super rare)
It's remarkably EASY to use their poor choice of maneuver against them and end up 1/2 around to their six before they have let off the trigger. It takes practice, and timin', but really it is not hard to accomplish. (I also love how most people that ho have not a clue what to do 'next' if the ho fails)
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I merge nose to nose and am ho'd at 1000's of times each tour.
I can generally count on one hand how many times I actually get shot down by said ho'r. (probably two hands how many damage me to some degree, but it's super rare)
It's remarkably EASY to use their poor choice of maneuver against them and end up 1/2 around to their six before they have let off the trigger. It takes practice, and timin', but super easy to do. (especially because most people that ho have not a clue what to do 'next' if the ho fails.
They've been getting more accurate since I started playing. What you say about them missing used to be true for me most of the time too. The *practiced* HOer is now a fact in AHII.
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I merge nose to nose and am ho'd at 1000's of times each tour.
I can generally count on one hand how many times I actually get shot down by said ho'r. (probably two hands how many damage me to some degree, but it's super rare)
It's remarkably EASY to use their poor choice of maneuver against them and end up 1/2 around to their six before they have let off the trigger. It takes practice, and timin', but really it is not hard to accomplish. (I also love how most people that ho have not a clue what to do 'next' if the ho fails)
could you then post some films of you doing this? to help those of us that aren;t as succesful at it as you are?
thanks!!
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Um... Im a Ho and people say im a tard..... OMG im a HoTard.... Oops wrong forum :devil
Honestly I just try to avoid the head on merge all together it is a a low percentage shot with a higher percentage of a collision. I think the slight delay in the connection might play a little bit of a roll in the Ho situation? perhaps some of the experts could elaborate more on this ?
As I said above I try to avoid the HO shot but if forced and I see tracers I will try to mess up any chance of a firing solution anyway that I can .
worse than the HO is some jerk that kills you in your chute.... that is really lame and both used to really be bad form and you only really saw this kind of thing from new people or others that lacked skill and honor.
Rabbit
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Bah, to HO as a preferred tactic unless against a BUFF is not my style. I prefer to fly with a wingman that I know and trust and employ BnZ tactics against our foes. I am also VERY fond of using Drag and Bag with a trusted wingman, of couse with icons on it makes it a tougher task to pull off. However given the ammount of target fixation that occurs regularly it still works well.
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I will whine about a HO if:
The guy tries to HO and only HO repeatedly even if it doesn't work.
A guy appears from nowhere and HO's me while I'm trying valiently to outfly the three other guys on my six.
I'm so low and slow I've momentarily lost manouverability and some tard comes in and HOs me (a HO picker).
It's not always your fault that you got HO'd. Fights aren't always one on one with E.
I would see no reason for whining myself.
Case 1) If that is all the enemy is capable of attempting, I'd place myself at his 6 after 2nd or 3rd pass and shoot him down.
Case 2) I'd be in bad situation against 3 enemies and would be just happy to risk that one HO kill offered to me. Better to get that and die than get nothing and die.
Case 3) Again I'd laugh my butt off for getting the chance to shoot back at the enemy while helpless myself and about to die :)
If/when I get shot at, why would I rather get the hit from behind than from HO? If I am almost finished anyway, the enemy who allows a HO is taking stupid risks :)
Everyone is in control of their own HO situations. Do not play a victim and admit that the enemy can control you and your actions so much that "you get HOed" :D
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(http://i435.photobucket.com/albums/qq77/AAdeath/hoho.jpg)
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I would see no reason for whining myself.
Case 1) If that is all the enemy is capable of attempting, I'd place myself at his 6 after 2nd or 3rd pass and shoot him down.
Case 2) I'd be in bad situation against 3 enemies and would be just happy to risk that one HO kill offered to me. Better to get that and die than get nothing and die.
Case 3) Again I'd laugh my butt off for getting the chance to shoot back at the enemy while helpless myself and about to die :)
If/when I get shot at, why would I rather get the hit from behind than from HO? If I am almost finished anyway, the enemy who allows a HO is taking stupid risks :)
Everyone is in control of their own HO situations. Do not play a victim and admit that the enemy can control you and your actions so much that "you get HOed" :D
Then you are simply adding to the problems that exist in the MA's today, especially in scenario #2. If no one rags on these dweebs then they will continue to think that thier actions are acceptable.
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Honestly, if you are alone and being pressed by 3 enemies, and a 4th one dives in offering you a HO shot... you won't take it???? You rather just dodge and then keep on dodging and die dodging 4 enemies?
Well... your choice, of course. If you see that as a problem, we definitely are not playing a same game :) ...then again. We are all free to play this game the way we enjoy it.
Whining is simply useless and childish :P
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Can someone explain to me how hoing works? When I go in with someone, I've become rather good at getting kill shots and turning away, but many times the guy turns with me and everytime even though it appears we missed by 50+ feet, I see a collision msg. Sure enough, I fall out of the sky while the other guy ...smoking...flies on.
It appears that if the other guy hits you from the top or right side, you lose...so I just try to avoid the fight till I can get a familiar altitude with him to take it to a more 'proper' fight.
??
(http://i40.tinypic.com/30m7ink.jpg)
Thats a HO.. nose to nose both with shots on the other person
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Then there are the ones where one player sees a nose-to-nose merge/remerge coming, strives mightily to avoid it, and the other guy gets to righteously claim "It wasn't a HO" because their opponent wasn't pointing his guns directly at them, because he trying to avoid having the fight end with mutually assured destruction...
(http://i40.tinypic.com/30m7ink.jpg)
Thats a HO.. nose to nose both with shots on the other person
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Then there are the ones where one player sees a nose-to-nose merge/remerge coming, strives mightily to avoid it, and the other guy gets to righteously claim "It wasn't a HO" because their opponent wasn't pointing his guns directly at them, because he trying to avoid having the fight end with mutually assured destruction...
Yea.. but i was defining that certain type of HO :D :uhoh
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Someone in this thread talked about the HO and the free kill from the disadvantage that may arise from avoiding.
What works well sometimes especially on the high diving Pony is at 1.5 give them a burst to let them know if your intention is to HO i will also.
This will usually make them break slightly and give u a clean merge.
It also quickly identifies the HOtard, if he keeps coming, u know what is coming, and can react accordingly.
I agree most Hotards are easily reversed and usually dead very quickly.
There are some that are famous for this However u can almost bet on 90% of the ponies will HO.
90% of the 190's will HO
90% of Tiffies will HO
100% of 110's will HO
98% of Hurri's will HO
98% of La's will HO
Chogs another HO machine but less likely cuz its perked
Obviously the IL2 but this one is your fault not theirs
These #'s are obviously not researched and pure opinion but u get my drift i think.
Oh and 1 More i almost forgot which has gotten out of control, its bad enough to be a SpitTard but a SPITHOTARD is worse of all.
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I always forget... which one is the HOtard, the one who is first heading towards his enemy, or the one who turns towards the enemy which is heading at him.... :rolleyes:
Or is it the one who survives the HO? :rofl
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My merge in the LW is actually very similar to what I would do in the DA with guns cold on 1st pass. I WANT them to maneuver for the HO, as it makes the rest of the fight so much easier for me.
It is all about timing. I do my break/lead turn RIGHT as they are about to shoot me. I tend to do a shallow dive and I like to be nosing up slightly to them on the merge (as in they are under 1k out from me when I do this). I can tell (usually) who is gonna fall for it by how they react to my mini-juke (which is basically just me changing my vector slightly a couple times as we close under 1k. doesn't have to be a shallow dive but it is most just import. to be changing your vector).
But WHEN to do the "real" merge is all about practice to get the timing down. I will ask if any of my squaddies have film still of a few 2 on 1's we did last year. It would show what I am talking about. They are both great sticks, but fight after fight they just couldn't HIT me solid 'nuff to shoot me down. I managed this by doing slight vector changes when they had gun solution.
It's similar to when you got a con on your 6 d600 back shooting. Those little mini-jukes you do to evade their bullets. Something like that, but during the fight.
You would be amazed what just a slight change of vector will do, but you have to TIME it right. Don't do your actually "move" untill they are starting to pull their trigger (hopefull RIGHT before they pull). I will generally pull into a turn to give them something to line up on, but when they are JUST ABOUT to shoot me is when I do my "real" move. It can be as simple as a slight vector change or something more complex like this one low yoyo to an immel to a lag displacment roll that I tend to do.
I flew for the first time in over a month this past week and I will try to remember (once I shake just a little rust off) to film what I am talking about.
This works if they are on my 6,12,9 whatever, but it especially works in the HO. You can merge nose to nose with the ho'rs. Just don't be where their guns are pointed when they pull the trigger. Timing, timing, timing. Too soon, they will see it and adjust. Too late and they will hit ya'.
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which is the hotards excuse. when you're merging them, they turn head on into you....with full intention of firing. you turn, slip, dive....whatever avoidence maneuver you choose.....you take ur guns off them. if your evasive was unsuccessful, and you call em on it, they call it a deflection shot, because you didn't have a guns solution. BS. it was a friggin ho. perhaps if they'd take the offers of help from the likes of murdr, hammer, and other trainers, they;d learn how to fight, and not need to ho in the first place.
friggin tards......... :mad: :furious
I relize the mentality~! How can u not ?...thats the reason for the :devil I was playing the devils advocate....
I wont say names but there is an la7 pilot that goes straight for you every time ....if you move at all he kicks the rudder and "that was a deflection shot" but you get a face full on the first merge gauranteed....
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To expand on what WMLute is saying, my squad has actually trained and practised to encourage or give the impression of commiting to the HO, then avoid it to maneuver for a Lead Turn onto the bandit's six.
It is not that hard to be successful in the avoidance maneuver 80 to 90+% of the time. The secret, as Mr. Lute said, is practising the timing needed and the correct maneuver.
The thing to know is that to avoid getting shot, you need to take your aircraft Out-of-Plane with your opponent. And, doing so in only one dimension (such as nosing straight down to fly under him, called going negative for Vertical Separation) is usually not enough. If he's quick, he'll nose down too and hose a long burst in front of your path as you pass under his nose. You must add a second Out-of-Plane element in another dimension to further foil the bandit from getting that nose-down guns solution. Such as immediately after starting the nose-down move, pull a quarter bank angle to the right or left.
In fact, the way we execute this is at 1.5K you push nose-down. If bandit really wants you, he noses down to stay sight-on. This increases his speed - a bad thing for trying to reverse turn quickly later. A quarter second later at 1000K, you initiate your second Out-of-Plane move, which for me is usually a slight bank and pull right (this is going for Lateral Separation - both types of separation give you Turning Room on the bandit after you pass him), then pull up and left into a wide half barrel roll, which I reverse back to nearly level flight and continue immediately to pull into a reversing loop to get on the bandit's six.
All happening in less than a second or so, it's rare that the bandit corrects quickly enough in all dimensions to get a solid hit, if any. At that point, as you flash past he is still committed to manuevering for the HO kill with no plan for reversing into a turn fight. He's late in deciding to turn, has more speed than he should have to do so. You have at least a half to 1 and a half seconds of maneuvering lead on him, even if he recovers to the situation fairly quickly.
I'll show anyone who wishes to learn this maneuver how to do it in the TA. Don't hate the HO'er. Encourage him. Nuture him. For he is a dogfighter's quick kill waiting to happen. :D
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To expand on what WMLute is saying, my squad has actually trained and practised to encourage or give the impression of commiting to the HO, then avoid it to maneuver for a Lead Turn onto the bandit's six.
It is not that hard to be successful in the avoidance maneuver 80 to 90+% of the time. The secret, as Mr. Lute said, is practising the timing needed and the correct maneuver.
The thing to know is that to avoid getting shot, you need to take your aircraft Out-of-Plane with your opponent. And, doing so in only one dimension (such as nosing straight down to fly under him, called going negative for Vertical Separation) is usually not enough. If he's quick, he'll nose down too and hose a long burst in front of your path as you pass under his nose. You must add a second Out-of-Plane element in another dimension to further foil the bandit from getting that nose-down guns solution. Such as immediately after starting the nose-down move, pull a quarter bank angle to the right or left.
In fact, the way we execute this is at 1.5K you push nose-down. If bandit really wants you, he noses down to stay sight-on. This increases his speed - a bad thing for trying to reverse turn quickly later. A quarter second later at 1000K, you initiate your second Out-of-Plane move, which for me is usually a slight bank and pull right (this is going for Lateral Separation - both types of separation give you Turning Room on the bandit after you pass him), then pull up and left into a wide half barrel roll, which I reverse back to nearly level flight and continue immediately to pull into a reversing loop to get on the bandit's six.
All happening in less than a second or so, it's rare that the bandit corrects quickly enough in all dimensions to get a solid hit, if any. At that point, as you flash past he is still committed to manuevering for the HO kill with no plan for reversing into a turn fight. He's late in deciding to turn, has more speed than he should have to do so. You have at least a half to 1 and a half seconds of maneuvering lead on him, even if he recovers to the situation fairly quickly.
I'll show anyone who wishes to learn this maneuver how to do it in the TA. Don't hate the HO'er. Encourage him. Nuture him. For he is a dogfighter's quick kill waiting to happen. :D
film?
it seems that all you guys that claim it's easy to avoid.....(i manage sometimes, but not all the time).
there are people in the arenas that will manage to hit you regardless of your using a single or multiple maneuvers to avoid.
i've done shallow dives, shallow dives combined with a little slip, climbing the same way, easy turns, hard turns.........and they all call it a deflection shot at that point, because i took my guns off of him.
believe me.....if i were the uber ho-avoider some of you guys claim to be, i'd never be in one of these threads.
as for having a head start on maneuvering with him? i almost always see them continue straight ahead......extending/......
film man!! film!!!
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film?
it seems that all you guys that claim it's easy to avoid.....(i manage sometimes, but not all the time).
there are people in the arenas that will manage to hit you regardless of your using a single or multiple maneuvers to avoid.
as for having a head start on maneuvering with him? i almost always see them continue straight ahead......extending/.....
Here is the "fun" bit. Yes they will sometimes keep going (not always) and extend. Then they will reverse and try it again. USUALLY on the 3rd or 4th failed attempt they will "do something stupid" and try to maneuver with you (most likely out of frustration) and they die quickly. Rare indeed is the guy who will ONLY ho until they are out of ammo (which does happen, but not usually).
As for the guys that will "always hit you", as I said I can usually count on one hand the ones that actually "get" me each tour (and those I usually allow the HO and HO 'em back 'cause I'm out #'d or damaged etc). I am just not where they are shooting 99.5% of the time. That is the "timing" of it. It isn't any one or two "special secret" maneuvers. Most of the time it is a simple bank of the plane so I am not where they are aiming. You have to practice the timing of it.
King of the Hill is the best place to see what I am talking about. There are several pilots who are most excellent at what I am talking about. (ManeTMP comes to mind, as does SkyRock, Stang, Murdr, FX1 <insert uber stick here, there are many in KOTH>) You go to pull guns and they are JUST out of solution. It seems every time you have a gun solution and you shoot they have changed their position slightly and you miss. KOTH is where I finally figured out how to do this. I watched others for years do this in CM eye God mode and it finally "clicked" one day and I practiced it.
Again, the "trick" isn't the maneuver, it's the timing. Give them a shot to line up and aim and when they pull the trigger, don't be there. Most of the time they are JUST missing me. (I hear the 'ting, ting, ting' of the close misses more often than not) It isn't WHAT you do so much as WHEN you do it.
Sloehand has it right though. You do one maneuver so they line you up for a shot, and then do a second so you are not where they are firing at. "Out of Plane" is exactly what I am talking about, but I'm trying to keep it simple and w/o any "jargon".
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In this first picture you turn in about the same time as the enemy plane you are accepting the HO. You know he's going to shoot, and the best you can do is roll or jink a bit, at which point he will slam his rudder and call it a "deflection shot"
(http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii253/maddogjoe_photos/accept.jpg)
In this second picture you are not giving him the HO shot. This is the best way to avoid the HO. Instead of turning toward him to go head to head, continue away. This can be either in a flat plain like the picture shows, or it could be in a vertical or any combination of both. It forces him to maneuver for his shot. If he doesn't want to maneuver, you are already part way through your turn and in the position of advantage.
(http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii253/maddogjoe_photos/avoid.jpg)
Thats the biggest problems with HOs, it takes 2 to HO. By turning towards the enemy like that you give up angles, and give them the option to HO or rudder in a "deflection shot". Sure against the horde you get stuck facing the wrong way sometimes, but if you have the choice why go H2H?
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In this first picture you turn in about the same time as the enemy plane you are accepting the HO. You know he's going to shoot, and the best you can do is roll or jink a bit, at which point he will slam his rudder and call it a "deflection shot"
(http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii253/maddogjoe_photos/accept.jpg)
In this second picture you are not giving him the HO shot. This is the best way to avoid the HO. Instead of turning toward him to go head to head, continue away. This can be either in a flat plain like the picture shows, or it could be in a vertical or any combination of both. It forces him to maneuver for his shot. If he doesn't want to maneuver, you are already part way through your turn and in the position of advantage.
(http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii253/maddogjoe_photos/avoid.jpg)
Thats the biggest problems with HOs, it takes 2 to HO. By turning towards the enemy like that you give up angles, and give them the option to HO or rudder in a "deflection shot". Sure against the horde you get stuck facing the wrong way sometimes, but if you have the choice why go H2H?
JUST A COUPLE WEEKS ago, i tried what you're showing in the second pic. when i came outta my turn, we were nose to nose. i turned off to his right, to gain myself some seperation for the upcomming turns. he immediatly pointed into me, and before i could do anything else, i was minus my right engine, and PW'd.
this was no noob either.....it was a vet....one i used to respect. ooo.....and he did use the ""it wasn't a ho, it was a deflection shot" line. like they all do.
now on the other hand, a month or so ago, i had a spit9 did nothing but try to ho me. he hit me on one of the passes, but no major damage. the one he got me on was when i got pissed enough to not avoid, and on pass#4 i ho'd him back. we both died..which i thinnk i mentiopned in this thread earlier. i was in a 38, and couldn't manage to get his six, or any other good shots before he had his nose pointed back at me again.
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Forgive my crude work Fugi, but I modified the image slightly to depict a potential mid-point problem I am imagining, particularly if it turns out your opponent does not wish to HO...?
(http://c4.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/55/l_0dfad493902042e2b28e6eff5169ad1b.jpg)
In this first picture you turn in about the same time as the enemy plane you are accepting the HO. You know he's going to shoot, and the best you can do is roll or jink a bit, at which point he will slam his rudder and call it a "deflection shot"
(http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii253/maddogjoe_photos/accept.jpg)
In this second picture you are not giving him the HO shot. This is the best way to avoid the HO. Instead of turning toward him to go head to head, continue away. This can be either in a flat plain like the picture shows, or it could be in a vertical or any combination of both. It forces him to maneuver for his shot. If he doesn't want to maneuver, you are already part way through your turn and in the position of advantage.
(http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii253/maddogjoe_photos/avoid.jpg)
Thats the biggest problems with HOs, it takes 2 to HO. By turning towards the enemy like that you give up angles, and give them the option to HO or rudder in a "deflection shot". Sure against the horde you get stuck facing the wrong way sometimes, but if you have the choice why go H2H?
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I relize the mentality~! How can u not ?...thats the reason for the :devil I was playing the devils advocate....
I wont say names but there is an la7 pilot that goes straight for you every time ....if you move at all he kicks the rudder and "that was a deflection shot" but you get a face full on the first merge gauranteed....
yaknow what? i think i owe ya an apology! :rofl i thought ya were serious.
DOH!!!
sorry bout that cheif(in my best maxwell smart voice.) :aok
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Ho`s usually are easy to avoid i agree but today i came across a 190 he was coming right at me got to 1.5k i see no sign of him firing so i think ill duck under him and over the top as soon as im gna make my move i start receiving damage turns out the guy has tracers turned off and i moved to late. Got me thinking tho if we had no tracers on perminantly no one would no about the ho until it was 2 late.
:salute
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I avoid 98% of all HO attempts by flying straight at the guy then rolling into a simple barrel roll at the last second. It's a very difficult move to follow for the HOer and unlike the dive under him doesn't bleed any E.
Normally I like to follow this by reversing the roll direction into an Immelman or a high yoyo. The con will normally react to your vector at the time he passes and he'll typically lose vis on you on the double move giving you an immediate advantage when you're not where he expects you to be.
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What did you do to my beautiful pictures !!!! :D
OK lets look at the fight turning into what you butchered.... ummm set up here :P
(http://c4.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/55/l_0dfad493902042e2b28e6eff5169ad1b.jpg)
In the picture to the left the blue plane avoids the HO. By the time the red plane reaches its second point the blue plane would be a bit further along than what you have there given equal "E" states. If you go nose low as the red plane gets to guns range it forces him into a "redout" to try and make his shot, blues aggressive move instead of continuing nose low to the left, break high and to the right in a barrel roll to catch the red planes 6. Or extend after completing 270 degrees of the turn and extend if you are more careful. Either way at the shot opportunity I'm giving him a slim profile shot, and forcing him more toward where "I" want him. After a HO you only guess where they are going.
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Forgive my crude work Fugi, but I modified the image slightly to depict a potential mid-point problem I am imagining, particularly if it turns out your opponent does not wish to HO...?
This is a dynamic situation, and not easily diagramed out. You take a heading several degrees off the mid point between you and your opponent. He commits to a nose on attitude, then you turn into him to close off his potential of gaining guns angle. If timed right what you are really doing is entering his turn circle just ahead of his guns.
(http://trainers.hitechcreations.com/files/murdr/avoid.jpg)
In this figure we are looking directly nose on into the bogies guns. If you make it to this point and are ahead of the bandits pitch ange, you've likely eliminated a true guns threat. With the closure rate of an average merge, and low separation, the aspect angle is changing at an insane rate. Well beyond the capibility of a bandits best instantanious rate of turn. Meaning he's unable to ever "catch up" in angles to connect a shot.
Or as Lute aptly describes:
You go to pull guns and they are JUST out of solution.
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Takes 2 to merge, 1 to HO :aok
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What did you do to my beautiful pictures !!!! :D
OK lets look at the fight turning into what you butchered.... ummm set up here :P
(http://c4.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/55/l_0dfad493902042e2b28e6eff5169ad1b.jpg)
In the picture to the left the blue plane avoids the HO. By the time the red plane reaches its second point the blue plane would be a bit further along than what you have there given equal "E" states. If you go nose low as the red plane gets to guns range it forces him into a "redout" to try and make his shot, blues aggressive move instead of continuing nose low to the left, break high and to the right in a barrel roll to catch the red planes 6. Or extend after completing 270 degrees of the turn and extend if you are more careful.
I don't have much problem avoiding the HO when there is room available to duck...its on the deck when in a relatively low E state that it seems like one party can turn it into a HO if they want.
Either way at the shot opportunity I'm giving him a slim profile shot, and forcing him more toward where "I" want him. After a HO you only guess where they are going.
Um...but giving them a slim profile shot is still giving them a shot, is it not? I'm even more worried about the possibility that the guy would *not* take the shot and would lag off somewhere into the rear quarter already possessing a big chunk of angles.
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Head on Dogfights of World War II does happen and is part of being a true fighter pilot.
So this will happen in this game, since it happens to be a combat simulator game of WORLD WAR II.
If you can't handle head on dogfights, that your problem.
Here is a link for proof - posted from a WWII pilot book.
http://www.cebudanderson.com/carson02.htm
Dog Fight over Germany
by Ken Hodges
<S> GGHOST
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Head on Dogfights of World War II does happen and is part of being a true fighter pilot.
So this will happen in this game, since it happens to be a combat simulator game of WORLD WAR II.
If you can't handle head on dogfights, that your problem.
Here is a link for proof - posted from a WWII pilot book.
http://www.cebudanderson.com/carson02.htm
Dog Fight over Germany
by Ken Hodges
<S> GGHOST
The point is, this is a game !! real life/wwii doesn't compare. The HO shot <---- note that word, its important..... is a lame, skillless tactic. If its the only trick in your bag, you might as well go play some first person shooter where you re-spawn endlessly.
Turning into a HO maneuver <---- notice its a different word now..... is a maneuver that happens often in the game, mostly due to the fact a lot of players can't tell which way the other plane is going. Using the closing tangent as the starting point in a maneuver to get your self into a firing solution is called "fighting" which by the way is the main purpose of the game, ie: to fight !
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Turning into a HO maneuver <---- notice its a different word now..... is a maneuver that happens often in the game, mostly due to the fact a lot of players can't tell which way the other plane is going. Using the closing tangent as the starting point in a maneuver to get your self into a firing solution is called "fighting" which by the way is the main purpose of the game, ie: to fight !
ya know.....i find myself making this mistake more often lately. i think i'm closing ona guys 6, then next thing i know, he's really big in my screen, and his guns blazing.......
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More menstrual flows from the whinetard crowd. Friggin HO is a guns solution baby, stay out of it and quit crying like babies.
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The interesting thing is how often in these pilot reports you read "made a head-on pass...no hits scored".
By contrast, for whatever reason, HO passes are nothing but M.A.D. in AHII 90% of the time.
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I've always been of the opinion that the "HO" is a myth. It's very very difficult to get 2 planes directly "head on" to each other for any significant period of time unless both pilots want it. Separate from the "straight at them" head on at the merge the 2nd is the who got around 1st HO. The 1st is very easy to avoid (just give me a shout anytime and I'll be happy to show you in the TA) and the 2nd is more like an old west gun fight...you either clear leather 1st or you don't.
Now in a good 1 on 1 both sides elect to avoid that nose to nose shot within reason. However it's also perfectly fine to hose the guy if in fact you did get around first and the other guy is attempting to minimize the angle off vs evading. The pic below is from me sitting on a guy trying to do just that...so in the end I popped in the canopy BEFORE he could set up a mutual HO. If you have the shot and the other guy keeps coming then just light him up and let him complain...the flip side is that in a good fight if the guy eases off to avoid the nose to nose I pass on the FQ shot and assume that we are now in more of a 3/9 line fight. Really good fights take some nurturing but are well worth it....
(http://www.az-dsl.com/snaphook/canopyshot.jpg)
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... you might as well go play some first person shooter where you re-spawn endlessly.
Last I checked, we fly fighters and shoot in the first person, and I haven't heard about a re-spawn limit of any kind.
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Head on Dogfights of World War II does happen and is part of being a true fighter pilot.
So this will happen in this game, since it happens to be a combat simulator game of WORLD WAR II.
If you can't handle head on dogfights, that your problem.
Here is a link for proof - posted from a WWII pilot book.
http://www.cebudanderson.com/carson02.htm
Dog Fight over Germany
by Ken Hodges
<S> GGHOST
I re utter my point.
So all the generals - from General Robins Olds, a fighter pilot ace in 2 or more wars is a lame pilot.
That's my opinion that people are crying. And cannot handle the head on dogfight.
Learn from it and move on.
Crying about it because you get shot down does you no good in dealing with the dogfight.
You will still be the lame duck getting shot down again to cry some more and post another (HO) head on post.
Bottom line LEARN AND MOVE ON.
<S> GGHOST
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Most of the time I will try to steer clear of firing on the merge, only to receive a snoot full myself.(deflection shot :confused:)
But every now and then I will get some one who actually wants to fight and we merge multiple times without firing a fq shot.
The best fights I've had are when both of us are jockying for the 6 o'clock shot.
The Ho shot or FQ shot on the merge are performed by guys who want the kill, not the fight.
I'm finding it harder and harder not to pull the trigger on the merge.
And whether they were a common tactic in WW2 or not, they are extremely prevelent in this game, and I guess its something that I have to live with. Like it or not.
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I re utter my point.
So all the generals - from General Robins Olds, a fighter pilot ace in 2 or more wars is a lame pilot.
That's my opinion that people are crying. And cannot handle the head on dogfight.
Learn from it and move on.
Crying about it because you get shot down does you no good in dealing with the dogfight.
You will still be the lame duck getting shot down again to cry some more and post another (HO) head on post.
Bottom line LEARN AND MOVE ON.
<S> GGHOST
What an idiot..... AGAIN !!! you can NOT compare WWII with a game ! Gen Olds and many other did what they had to do as their duty. If its your life or the other guys you take what ever shot you get. However....and I'll type this slow... This is a game, the point being is to play, and playing means fighting. It is lame game play to HO due to the FACT its a skilless shot.
Boner says it well....
Most of the time I will try to steer clear of firing on the merge, only to receive a snoot full myself.(deflection shot :confused:)
But every now and then I will get some one who actually wants to fight and we merge multiple times without firing a fq shot.
The best fights I've had are when both of us are jockying for the 6 o'clock shot.
The Ho shot or FQ shot on the merge are performed by guys who want the kill, not the fight.
I'm finding it harder and harder not to pull the trigger on the merge.
And whether they were a common tactic in WW2 or not, they are extremely prevelent in this game, and I guess its something that I have to live with. Like it or not.
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I am going to take the high road and not call you any name. Your actions in your name calling says it all. .... Fugitive
Grow up!
<S> GGHOST
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When it comes to aerial combat, there are two very basic ideas that form the foundation for every other aspect.
Shoot the other guy, and don't get shot yourself.
The reason to avoid the HO isn't because it's a cheap shot- you should avoid it because it's dangerous, and it breaks one of the two basic rules (don't get shot).
Unless you're getting ganged, or have reached a point of not having enough E to manuever, avoiding HO's isn't tough at all. I'd class it as a simple, basic, beginner-level exercise. Chop throttle to slow down and land, pull out of your dives early enough to avoid augering, and try not to let the other guy shoot you.
If you give the other guy a shot-solution, you should expect him to fire. For him to not fire would cheapen the fight. If my merge is so poor as to offer a "beginner" an opportunity to end the fight at it's very beginning, how "advanced" are my skills?
Give me a good reason why a 12 O'clock shot isn't exactly as legitimate as a 6 O'clock shot, or a 10 O'clock shot, or a 3 O'clock-high shot.
You're not supposed to let the other guy shoot you! No matter what! It doesn't matter if he's above you, below you, next to you, behind you, in front of you, in a blue plane, or a red plane, wearing funny goggles, drinking beer, or whatever! You're not supposed to let him shoot you! If you're getting shot, you're not doing what you're supposed to do!
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What an idiot..... AGAIN !!! you can NOT compare WWII with a game ! Gen Olds and many other did what they had to do as their duty. If its your life or the other guys you take what ever shot you get. However....and I'll type this slow... This is a game, the point being is to play, and playing means fighting. It is lame game play to HO due to the FACT its a skilless shot.
Boner says it well....
The very fact that it is a game, is another reason why the HO is a valid tactic. If I play a game of chess with you, and decide to not put you're king in check-mate at my first opportunity, the game is a lie. What if I pass a legitimate game-ending move, and you end up beating me? Is your "win" valid? No! You only won because I "allowed" you to continue playing. What's the point of allowing the game to drag on when one opponent blew it already?
Same for the HO...
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They've been getting more accurate since I started playing. What you say about them missing used to be true for me most of the time too. The *practiced* HOer is now a fact in AHII.
(Quote was in reference to HO shots being easy to avoid)...
To paraphrase the way this sounds to me-
The beginner pilots used to be pretty easy for us experienced pilots to dodge and kill. But now, the beginners are getting better, and us more-advanced players are having a rough time of it. Those dirty buggers keep killing us before we even get a chance to open our cans of Whup-Azz!
It isn't fair! It isn't a valid tactic! How can I demonstrate my aerial prowess if he won't even let me start?
If the beginner pilots won't let the advanced pilots into a position where the beginner has little or no chance of winning something is wrong!
They shouldn't be allowed to shoot us in the face before we get a chance to shoot them in the back!
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If you require the other guy to not shoot you when you give him an opportunity to do so, in order for you to get an opportunity to shoot him, your tactics are flawed at a very basic level...
And, if you expect him to pass the shot on you (the HO), is it fair for him to expect that you'll pass the the shot on him (the 6-O'clock)?
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It would be nice if the noobs didnt get merging and Hoing confused.
"You came for the HO so i shot"
"Its called a merge"
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If you require the other guy to not shoot you when you give him an opportunity to do so, in order for you to get an opportunity to shoot him, you're tactics are flawed at a very basic level...
Hello Mtnman,
This is signature line material Sir.
<Salute>
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Theres seems to be an increase in the suicidal HOs in the game. In actual war Pilots HO'd but they surely cared if they were shot down and/or killed.
I see this flying IL-2s. Like today a spit came in with all kinds of Alt on me yet settled for an HO, rammed the IL-2 as well "very common". While they often will inflict a lot of damage to the IL-2 its very unlikely they will survive the encounter too. Most of the time they will ram my IL-2 as well.
The real question is "why"? Why would you do that when flying something like a Spit that is capable of dancing around an IL-2 and slaughtering it with even medium skill? Thats what gets me about a lot of these players who live by the HO. They dont try and develop skills that gives them other options. Its almost like they are just out to ruin everyones elses day without playing to survive their own selves. In fighters you see this a lot when players give away all their E and Alt. just to come level with you and head right in. Why would you do that?
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The accuracy I'm speaking of is not a thing associated with true *beginners*.
The specific tactic I'm talking is basically HOing as soon as it becomes clear the opponent will *not* be going for a HO shot. If the HOee always returned the favor to the HOer, there would be almost 0 chance of anyone having a working airplane at the end of it, and who got the kill would always be a coin toss. The fights would be very short indeed...THAT is the reason more than any other not to go for a HO in AHII if any other options are open, and why people can't understand this is beyond me.
However, a certain % takes advantage of the % who understand this and who would rather not go nose-on for M.A.D destruction in situations where it is conceivably possible, and takes cheapshots.
The idea that there is any practical way to merge where an opponent bound and detirmined to HO absolutely can *not* conceivably take an aimed shot is something of a myth. Yes, the largest % are more likely to screw up and put themselves in an awkward position rather than do any damage, but hell, most of the time that is true of most making a pass at your 6 as well.
Something I will mention again, I believe the very effectiveness of the HO pass as a firing solution is somehow an artifact of simulation and not something true to life.
(Quote was in reference to HO shots being easy to avoid)...
To paraphrase the way this sounds to me-
The beginner pilots used to be pretty easy for us experienced pilots to dodge and kill. But now, the beginners are getting better, and us more-advanced players are having a rough time of it. Those dirty buggers keep killing us before we even get a chance to open our cans of Whup-Azz!
It isn't fair! It isn't a valid tactic! How can I demonstrate my aerial prowess if he won't even let me start?
If the beginner pilots won't let the advanced pilots into a position where the beginner has little or no chance of winning something is wrong!
They shouldn't be allowed to shoot us in the face before we get a chance to shoot them in the back!
----------------
If you require the other guy to not shoot you when you give him an opportunity to do so, in order for you to get an opportunity to shoot him, you're tactics are flawed at a very basic level...
And, if you expect him to pass the shot on you (the HO), is it fair for him to expect that you'll pass the the shot on him (the 6-O'clock)?
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Something I will mention again, I believe the very effectiveness of the HO pass as a firing solution is somehow an artifact of simulation and not something true to life.
Hmm, I think you could be on to something there-
In real life it's doubtful that anyone would merge so close nose-nose when there was a high likelyhood of getting shot and dying. In a simulation, we're often more careless in our merge, and allow ourselves to get into the other guys sights because we think he "shouldn't", or "wouldn't dare" shoot us...
It may not be anything artificial in terms of modeling, accuracy, or lethality, but rather an artificial "attitude" that makes us think it's ok to merge in what would/could otherwise be seen as a suicidal manner.
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You guys still have this thread going........ WHOA
So what if somebody were to say that statistics from pilot records of the US Army Air Corp from WWII have more instances of ho's spoken on then dogfights?
Not that I'm saying that....... But I think I'd put some coin down on that bet.
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Head on Dogfights of World War II does happen and is part of being a true fighter pilot.
So this will happen in this game, since it happens to be a combat simulator game of WORLD WAR II.
You assume AH was ment to simulate WWII, it has never attempeted to do so in the main. Nore has it ever been the goal to do so.
There is a drastic diffence between simlating WWII Aircraft and a simulation of WWII.
HiTech
We make a game around WWII planes and vehicles. We do not try to simulate WWII. Simulation of WWII is one of CT's goal's. Then things like ho's start to be used much more like they were in the war. Once there is a substatial penalty on death. And you can win with out shooting down the other guy. Then the choice of to HO or not becomes a very diffferent equation.
The "real WWII HO" argment breaks down as HT says because the facts of the situation are different. A pilots goal was to complete his mission. In the game, you do not get "graded" on completing mission objectives. You get "graded" on damaging or destroying the enemy and their facilities. If a pilots mission was to escort bombers, then their success did not depend on killing the enemy. Only on preventing the enemy from killing the bombers. In AH the measure of sucess dynamic is much different, as is the consequence for taking the risk of flying straight into the enemies guns.
But at the same time, it is a valid tactic...
Not sure what you mean by HO's being "turned on" in AH. In general, I would say you're taking the wrong approach. When you say, "I will only fire when I see the enmy start to shot, cuz I know I'm gonna die," that to me sounds like you always make the same approach to the merge - barreling straight into the guy hoping that he doesn't take the shot. Once he fires, you decide to return fire, but by that time, you're at a big disadvantage. You need to decide before then whether you'll be taking that shot or not. That should be a tactical decision, not an ethical one. You need to make a split second risk assessment and choose the tactic that best fits the situation. If you always go for the HO or never go for the HO, you're using a sub-optimal strategy.
Generally, in a 1v1 you want the other guy to commit to the HO shot. If he's going to push, you want to pull unless maybe he's a boxer wanting to trade blows with a puncher. The idea is to bait him into a low % HO shot in order to gain angles and position on him. Let him overcommit and set him up for the counter. Going low on the merge is a great way to accomplish this because because he has to really bury his nose to get enough lead for a shot. You pull a lead immelman there and if he also pulls an immelman after the shot, you'll already be in his hind quarter following the initial merge.
IRL I would say that HO's are more effective than in the game even though they probably result in a higher % of shootdowns in the game.
As to anecdotes about head-ons, just grab a book of WWII air combat anecdotes. You won't have to look too hard. An amusing anecdote regarding the tactic can be found in James Howard's "Roar of the Tiger".
"The Fourth had been flying P-47 Thunderbolts since that spring, so Blakeslee came to us as a veteran who could speak with authority based on experience. Don proved very durable. By the end of the war, he had accumulated a thousand hours of combat flying, more than any other American fighter pilot.
"In Blakeslee's briefing that afternoon, he explained we had three tactics to use against the enemy: (1) shoot down the enemy plane (or be shot down), (2) make the enemy fighter break off an attack first, (3) if the enemy fighter fails to break off, continue on a collision course.
"We were stunned. Did he mean we should deliberately ram the enemy head-on?
"Blakeslee hesitated for emphasis and then said, "We never turn away from a head-on attack. If we do, the word will get back to Luftwaffe pilots that the Americans break first in a head-on pass. They will then have a psychological advantage of knowing beforehand what we will do."
"A young pilot in the front row asked what would happen if the German pilot followed the same orders. Blakeslee looked down at the young man with a contemptuous smile and said, "In that case you've earned your flight pay the hard way!"
People also seem to forget how with no collisions in AW, you would could head on in AW flying right threw the apponent with no worries of impact.
When a change was made to the randomly throwing out hits was the end of my FW flying days. Not because I liked to head on, but it took a very valid tatic away. In those days I would use a pure head on when ever I was at a disavantage. I.E. just finished a fight, slow on dec. and a spit is comming in. You can be sure I would take the head on in that case, because it was my only option if the guy wanted to fly right at me, and I had no speed to turn or manuver with him. But even more important than the pure head on was how it totaly removed the rope a dope. Against a resonable aponent ropes and using the vertical became almost inposible, because everone would just wait, and point there nose at you knowing there chances of being hit was very low, even thow they were stalled was required no lead to shoot them.
And create another frustration, move the play advantge to the slow turn fighters.
I rember very well the no head on code in AW, as a ropa doper in FW, and F4's it me very frustrated me greatly to have a guy supspended totaly still in mid air, and not be able to shoot him because he had his nose point some what towards me.
2nd the aim point between AW and AH are drasticly different.
3rd in AW you didn't have to worry about colliding with the other guy.
Finaly If you are just fairly new, and aw was the last thing you played, You still have realy bad habits about the merge that you need to adjust.
HiTech
There is one advantage against maneuvering against a plane going for a head-on shot that is present here but not in a real fight and that's lag. I can't believe I'm the only one who gets warm fuzzies as I'm halfway through an immelman looking staight back and seeing a guy still firing his head-on shot. He ends up losing a lot of angles at the merge by going for the shot. It's kind of like Andrew Jackson dueling, take the other guy's wild shot and then calmly make him pay.
------------------
Doug "Pyro" Balmos
HiTech Creations
I really disagree with the justification of "Hey, they did it in WWII". This isn't WWII. Intentionally exposing yourself to the enemies guns, which is what a HO does, is inherently risky. It "might" be the best tactic for a given scenario, but odds are that it is likely a poor choice. I think Pyro's comment in bold sums that up pretty well.
At the same time. I will not give free passes to someone trying to lead turn a merge poorly. If they leave me an easily achievable shot, I will take it. I consider it doing them a favor by letting them know they just messed up. But I will not go out of my way to chase a shot on a well executed lead turn. Actually I am probably too busy doing my own lead turn.
I will HO when the situation calls for it, but odds are I'll have a better option most of the time.
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The "real WWII HO" argment breaks down as HT says because the facts of the situation are different. A pilots goal was to complete his mission. In the game, you do not get "graded" on completing mission objectives. You get "graded" on damaging or destroying the enemy and their facilities. If a pilots mission was to escort bombers, then their success did not depend on killing the enemy. Only on preventing the enemy from killing the bombers. In AH the measure of sucess dynamic is much different, as is the consequence for taking the risk of flying straight into the enemies guns.
But at the same time, it is a valid tactic...
I really disagree with the justification of "Hey, they did it in WWII". This isn't WWII. Intentionally exposing yourself to the enemies guns, which is what a HO does, is inherently risky. It "might" be the best tactic for a given scenario, but odds are that it is likely a poor choice. I think Pyro's comment in bold sums that up pretty well.
At the same time. I will not give free passes to someone trying to lead turn a merge poorly. If they leave me an easily achievable shot, I will take it. I consider it doing them a favor by letting them know they just messed up. But I will not go out of my way to chase a shot on a well executed lead turn. Actually I am probably too busy doing my own lead turn.
I will HO when the situation calls for it, but odds are I'll have a better option most of the time.
spot on. :aok
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Mntman
I was thinking more of the OODA loop. Consider the steps Is that speck an airplane? Is that airplane an enemy airplane? Should I fire? What is the relative heading? Aim... *BAM*
In iconless reality, I suspect two planes on a near-collision course would often go from being specks to passing each other in a twinkling before fire, or accurate fire, could be delivered.
Hmm, I think you could be on to something there-
In real life it's doubtful that anyone would merge so close nose-nose when there was a high likelyhood of getting shot and dying. In a simulation, we're often more careless in our merge, and allow ourselves to get into the other guys sights because we think he "shouldn't", or "wouldn't dare" shoot us...
It may not be anything artificial in terms of modeling, accuracy, or lethality, but rather an artificial "attitude" that makes us think it's ok to merge in what would/could otherwise be seen as a suicidal manner.
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If the act of HO demonstrates lack of skill then why is it so many people cant do it? :huh
I want to be clear too. If you turn HO and fire at me I will let it slide maybe once but the second time you do it Im going to shoot every time I have a shot. I know what you mean about skill though because I see one Niki in particular attack in HO only while at the same time using his twisty stick to spray in as large a pattern as possible (shotgun style).
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"The Fourth had been flying P-47 Thunderbolts since that spring, so Blakeslee came to us as a veteran who could speak with authority based on experience. Don proved very durable. By the end of the war, he had accumulated a thousand hours of combat flying, more than any other American fighter pilot.
"In Blakeslee's briefing that afternoon, he explained we had three tactics to use against the enemy: (1) shoot down the enemy plane (or be shot down), (2) make the enemy fighter break off an attack first, (3) if the enemy fighter fails to break off, continue on a collision course.
"We were stunned. Did he mean we should deliberately ram the enemy head-on?
"Blakeslee hesitated for emphasis and then said, "We never turn away from a head-on attack. If we do, the word will get back to Luftwaffe pilots that the Americans break first in a head-on pass. They will then have a psychological advantage of knowing beforehand what we will do."
"A young pilot in the front row asked what would happen if the German pilot followed the same orders. Blakeslee looked down at the young man with a contemptuous smile and said, "In that case you've earned your flight pay the hard way!"
And this is why all armies in history have prefered young men-you can get 'em to buy into this sort of thing.
By the time you've seen about 30 winters you get to wondering things like, WTF do I care about the psychological state of the Luftwaffe if I just tried to swallow a 109 prop-first....
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The very fact that it is a game, is another reason why the HO is a valid tactic. If I play a game of chess with you, and decide to not put you're king in check-mate at my first opportunity, the game is a lie. What if I pass a legitimate game-ending move, and you end up beating me? Is your "win" valid? No! You only won because I "allowed" you to continue playing. What's the point of allowing the game to drag on when one opponent blew it already?
Same for the HO...
OK lets use your chess analogy, this would have to be a new rule as there is no such thing in chess, but lets say once a game you have the chance to call the "HO Gambit". This entitles you to one roll of a pair of dice. If you roll anything over a 5 you win the game, under you loose. Now knowing you are not very good at the actual game, what would you do? Most of todays players choose to roll the dice and end the fight in one blaze of glory.
In some cases you don't have that chance to "pass up a game winning move", its forced on you time and time again. Too many people look for the easy way out and go for the HO, heck, its easier to just up another plane than it is to learn....oh I don't know air combat maneuvers!
I am going to take the high road and not call you any name. Your actions in your name calling says it all. .... Fugitive
Grow up!
<S> GGHOST
I am long past "growing up" and am now well with in being "crotchety". You post was ridiculous and I told you so, sorry. While I never was in a war, I know this game doesn't come close to real life in any way. Even my time in the service tho during "peace time" makes this game look like..... well a game.
You defend the HO, most likely because its your one and only move, and your score shows it. The game is about fighting, not just racking up kills. If you think your having fun getting kills with your HOs, wait until you can earn the kill by maneuvering for the shot, and downing a plane with a well placed burst from your guns.
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Old
Wow I'd never seen those quotes from HT and Pyro, in a sense what a mixed bag I can see where it all comes from now. AW pilots were all ACM with the exception of having to learn a variation of a merge tactic, (I personally never flew through someone in AW it was a bad merge if I did no angles). To get the full realm of possibilities into the game frontal shots were incorporated (Good Idea). But some AH players found they could sometimes get kills by using this tactic to their advantage knowing full well if they lost a new plane was free to go get and it somewhat increased their odds to get lucky.
New
Newer players with none or little knowledge and even less interest to learn ACM and eager for the Quake or Counter Strike kills don't see it any other way, Its a game I got a kill, and it grew and is growing.
So what started as way to increase ACM by making all options available may have actually decreased ACM in mass. Maybe that's why stubborn old AW guys like me continue to struggle.
hmmmm
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double posted
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You defend the HO, most likely because its your one and only move, and your score shows it.
I sense some frustration on your part. There is help available.
The game is about fighting, not just racking up kills.
This game is many different things to many different people. It would be a mistake on your part to think that your view of the game is the only correct view.
If you think your having fun getting kills with your HOs, wait until you can earn the kill by maneuvering for the shot, and downing a plane with a well placed burst from your guns.
The Head On shot is a guns solution shot. Head On shots are easily made and just as easily avoidable.
Talk with Shuffler about avoiding the Head On shot. He is one of the best angles players in the game and rarely ever gets taken out with a Head On shot. AKAK as well. Great angles player.
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I sense some frustration on your part. There is help available.
This game is many different things to many different people. It would be a mistake on your part to think that your view of the game is the only correct view.
The Head On shot is a guns solution shot. Head On shots are easily made and just as easily avoidable.
Talk with Shuffler about avoiding the Head On shot. He is one of the best angles players in the game and rarely ever gets taken out with a Head On shot. AKAK as well. Great angles player.
It is very rare that I get taken out in a HO, I avoid them and will even give up angles to avoid them. The issue I have is the players that are coming in today, for the most part look for the easy path, and it is bring the general game play down in to the slums.
Fighting, or "combat" (Murdr should be along with the quote from HT about the game soon :D ) is the reason for the game, it is what the game is all about. There are many avenues to that combat, but its still about combat. If you don't want to fight in a GV go play "iron Fist", if you don't want to fight in a plane, go play Microsofts flight sim. By going for the HO, you are giving up the fight and putting it all into chance, by not learning to fight and maneuver your plane your cheating yourself.
I've flown with Shuf and AKAK, as well as against them, they are ALWAYS good fights, and that's what its all about. You fight them you better bring your "A" game, and a HO ain't going to save you.
HO's are for losers, its a lame, skilless maneuver. Take some time to learn a real maneuver or two and challenge yourself to a fight with someone else who knows a maneuver or two. Other wise you might as well go play some stupid box game, I hear some even have AI that shoot back, so be carefull :rolleyes:
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I sense some frustration on your part. There is help available.
This game is many different things to many different people. It would be a mistake on your part to think that your view of the game is the only correct view.
The Head On shot is a guns solution shot. Head On shots are easily made and just as easily avoidable.
Talk with Shuffler about avoiding the Head On shot. He is one of the best angles players in the game and rarely ever gets taken out with a Head On shot. AKAK as well. Great angles player.
I don't spend all day on Aces High II, so my score isn't always better then everyone else. I never said that I was the best. But I sense that you like to think your the best.
But I learn, I turn and I do dogfight ACM's. But when I turn and the enemy is doing the same ACM and comes at me head on, I try to adjust for a angle shot on your wing or your fuse lodge. Giving into a basic ACM and not take a shot, when someone is going to shoot at me is pure ridiculous. I will take the shot and I will kill you or be killed period.
But I am not posting my crying HO or head on report.
I learn adapt and over come the situation. And move on.
Seems to me that you don't like any ones opinion, if it is different then the yours.
This is America if you don't like someone opinion.
You should be adult enough to handle it.
Some people never grow up.
See you later on the 200 channel - AKA: The whaan channel.
Later - GGHOST
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But I sense that you like to think your the best.
"/epic fail" :rolleyes:
"I beg your pardon, I never promised you a rose garden."