Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: Crousader on January 19, 2009, 01:32:41 PM
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This is just one of my weaknesses but of all it's the most frustrating. I typically fly planes with nose mounted gun packages, I get well within range (inside D400) I get on the guys six , put him in the middle of my pipper and squeeze.
Then the shells fall behind, below, above, you name it. I tip him off (of course) and he breaks away leaving me feeling awful ..
What do I need to do to get better?
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Practice ! From a strait 6 shot you lead just above the plane at 400 to account for bullet drop. Closer less, farther away, more. The 6 shot is one of the hardest due to the plane profile being very small. Learn to set up your shots for when the enemy gives you a bigger profile, like in a turn. Throw a few rounds out there to let him know your there, then when he breaks giving you that nice big profile, let him have it !
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1. Turn your tracers off. They hide the hit sprites and let the enemy know you are shooting at him.
2. There are lots of techniques to help you get hits. In a true tracking shot you have a little time to move the bullet stream. You can start with the gunsight in lag(behind the bandit), press the trigger when the gunsight is on the target and continue your pull through the target until the bandit disappears below the bottom of the gunsight. You can do the reverse, start in lead and hold the trigger down as the bandit flies through the gunsight.
Snapshots are a matter of feel mostly but most of the time you are picking a point in space you think the bandit will fly through and putting rounds on that point in space.
I'll try to post a few short films showing what I am describing although 90% of my shots are lead to lag (the second method I described)
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What do I need to do to get better?
Get inside 200. Seriously. Makes shooting much easier.
- oldman
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Oldman is correct, closer is always better.
Here are the films I promised, all from one sortie a few days ago.
When you start the films make sure Use Recorded views is UNCHECKED then us Page Up and Page Down and the Arrow keys to adjust the view until it looks like the screenshot below. That will replicate the view I use to shoot with (I have a button mapped to achieve this ...plus 2 more to adjust the zoom in or out. I only use those when sniping running mustangs :devil )
(http://home.comcast.net/~micelihouston/film%20library/gunsightview.jpg)
Film 1 (http://home.comcast.net/~micelihouston/film library/gunsspit1.ahf)
Film 2 (http://home.comcast.net/~micelihouston/film library/gunsspit2.ahf)
Film 3 (http://home.comcast.net/~micelihouston/film library/gunsspit4.ahf)
Film 4 (http://home.comcast.net/~micelihouston/film library/gunsp391.ahf)
Also slowing down the film below 1x speed is helpful in seeing the shot.
These aren't necessarily the best examples, just the ones from a recent fight. And I'm far from the best shot in the game but I definitely ain't the worst.
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One more thing.....
I have two separate buttons for machine guns and cannons (I pretty much only fly P38). I only use cannon for low G, close in shooting. The cannon drop is such that under more than 2 G you can't see the target and hit it with cannon. You are basically guessing (which you can get good at....most Luftwaffe flyers get good at this). I use the 50 cals for most shots and the P38 package usually doesn't need the 20MM to get a quick kill. I doubt I used the cannon for any of the shots in the films but who knows.
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This is just one of my weaknesses but of all it's the most frustrating. I typically fly planes with nose mounted gun packages, I get well within range (inside D400) I get on the guys six , put him in the middle of my pipper and squeeze.
Then the shells fall behind, below, above, you name it. I tip him off (of course) and he breaks away leaving me feeling awful ..
What do I need to do to get better?
Unless you are one someone's "dead six" and they are flying straight and level ... putting "him in the middle of my pipper" is not what you want to do.
"Pulling lead" means exactly that ... you must place/"pull" the pipper to where you think the plane will be ... not where the plane is at.
If you place your pipper on a maneuvering plane ... your bullets will go where he was at the second you fired the gun, and unless you are right on top of the bad guy, his plane will not be there when the bullets arrive (unless of course your bullets fly at the speed of light, then putting the pipper on the bad guy and shooting will most likely work).
"Pulling lead" and figuring out where the bad guy WILL be ... is something that is acquired over time with lots of practice (at least for me it was).
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"Pulling lead" and figuring out where the bad guy WILL be ... is something that is acquired over time with lots of practice (at least for me it was).
Exactly. I remember hearing a WWII vet on an air combat TV show say something to the effect of "If I saw his nose pointed directly at me, I didn't worry...If I saw his nose pointed in front of me, I got real nervous."
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One would assume that the OP knows about the need to lead from the thread title.
I think he is looking for techniques to learn the lead required in different situations.
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Thanks everyone but I do know I need to pull lead and aim where the bandit *will* be but how do I do it especially in a turn fight when the bandit falls below my nose.
My problems are compounded by the sneaky shot at the bandits low 6 where I still miss and give away my attack
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Thanks everyone but I do know I need to pull lead and aim where the bandit *will* be but how do I do it especially in a turn fight when the bandit falls below my nose.
My problems are compounded by the sneaky shot at the bandits low 6 where I still miss and give away my attack
Ahh that takes practice is all. Don't let it get too complicated for you, just keep doing it. Dead six shots are actually more difficult than a lead/turning shot. I get many kills while pulling to blackout with the plane under my nose. Honestly, there's not a special trick to it, it just takes practice. Even your latency comes into play.... just keep at it and you will see results. Be careful who you get advice from, some people who have posted in here have rather banal hit %'s and may not be giving you good info. Again... just keep at it.
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One thing that helps is to get close, pull more lead than you think you need, then relax the stick to unload your airframe. Your bullets will travel less arced and more concentrated. If you get hits, it will be more than just one or two pings like you'd get if you continued to pull g's.
Again, it's all practice and more practice until you get a feel for it and a good mental picture of where the plane is and where he will be.
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Keep your tracers on, film, and shoot where it seems most natural. Don't hold back, don't hesitate. Watch the film and see what adjustments you need to make.
Rinse, repeat...
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Honestly, there's not a special trick to it, it just takes practice.
Hasn't helped me so far...please prescribe a PED of some sort.
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Turn tracers off, go offline and work on the drones until you can 'one pass them' from every angle.
Practice makes perfect, there isn't a magic button to cause you to suddenly make easy kills.
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But then he can't see where the bullets went (on film) when he misses. It'll take a while to teach his brain what works and what doesn't, and why. I think my method is better to start with :) Feel free to punch me.
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If he starts from 0 AOT/180 AOT and then slowly works his way to 90 AOT, he will learn with the best tool; his own eye.
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Try getting through these excellent articles:
http://www.simhq.com/_air/air_028a.html
http://www.simhq.com/_air9/air_268a.html
http://www.simhq.com/_air9/air_269a.html
and revisited:
http://www.simhq.com/_air/air_031a.html
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If he starts from 0 AOT/180 AOT and then slowly works his way to 90 AOT, he will learn with the best tool; his own eye.
I still think he needs to have tracers on to begin with. See their behavior at all those angles and speeds. Watch the films (not possible without tracers) for extra pov's (sometimes first person pov is misleading), slo motion etc. Once that's integrated, he turns em off and uses the force.
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I agree with you Moot, if he is learning the ballistics for the tater. The amount of lead in a 90 degree AOT with the tater can be surprising.
For a 50cal/20mm nose mounted bird, I still feel my suggestion is the best in the long run.
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Dang, you're right.. I wasn't even thinking about that. Shots over ~600y would still be worth filming with tracers on for a good initial understanding, though.
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Dead 6 shots are by their very nature difficult, my advice is:
-like oldman said, get closer if you can
-If you tend to be undershooting make a conscious effort to apply twice as much lead as you think you need
-practice attacking the offline drones from various angles
-fire short bursts not long ones, if you miss adjust your aim (my own preference is tracers on)
-try to get comfortable firing blind- sometimes you'll have to pull so so much lead the con will be under you nose. Offlines drones will be handy for this too
- i know a lot of people do this but don't zoom in to shoot- i generally only use this if a con is hard to see against the ground
-If a con is level you can dive below a con then shoot as you are rising, you'll have a larger plane aspect to shoot at and be momentarily closer. Even in an extended chase this can get you and extra 200-400yrds closer for a short period if the con stays level.
I've just uploaded a film for you crousader, the first 5 mins contains minimal ACM, just pure gunnery dweebery.
http://www.4shared.com/file/81615376/5ceb2540/furballisle2.html (http://www.4shared.com/file/81615376/5ceb2540/furballisle2.html)
I'll try and hunt a film for a good example of the last tip i mentioned.
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Try getting through these excellent articles:
http://www.simhq.com/_air/air_028a.html
http://www.simhq.com/_air9/air_268a.html
http://www.simhq.com/_air9/air_269a.html
and revisited:
http://www.simhq.com/_air/air_031a.html
Great resources thanks!!
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Oldman is correct, closer is always better.
Here are the films I promised, all from one sortie a few days ago.
When you start the films make sure Use Recorded views is UNCHECKED then us Page Up and Page Down and the Arrow keys to adjust the view until it looks like the screenshot below. That will replicate the view I use to shoot with (I have a button mapped to achieve this ...plus 2 more to adjust the zoom in or out. I only use those when sniping running mustangs :devil )
(http://home.comcast.net/~micelihouston/film%20library/gunsightview.jpg)
Film 1 (http://home.comcast.net/~micelihouston/film library/gunsspit1.ahf)
Film 2 (http://home.comcast.net/~micelihouston/film library/gunsspit2.ahf)
Film 3 (http://home.comcast.net/~micelihouston/film library/gunsspit4.ahf)
Film 4 (http://home.comcast.net/~micelihouston/film library/gunsp391.ahf)
Also slowing down the film below 1x speed is helpful in seeing the shot.
These aren't necessarily the best examples, just the ones from a recent fight. And I'm far from the best shot in the game but I definitely ain't the worst.
what do you do about nose bounce when you're zoomed in that far? i have my dampning, and deadbands up, and i've scaled my inputs back fairly heavily, but it still bounces waaaayyy too much....only zoomed though.
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Crousader:
Various good advice given already in this thread but I want to revisit a particular topic. You commented that you understand the idea that you have to aim where the bandit will be. However you stated the following as well:
I typically fly planes with nose mounted gun packages, I get well within range (inside D400) I get on the guys six , put him in the middle of my pipper and squeeze.
I bolded the key phrase for emphasis. Putting the bandit in the middle of your pipper is not aiming and shooting where the bandit is going to be. Assuming the bandit is turning you are already shooting behind the bandit if you're centering the bandit in your pipper.
Let me second Spatula's post. Don't let it get lost. Andy Bush's articles on SimHq are the best ones I have seen on the topic. The last thread Spatula posted is Andy's most concise gunnery article on the topic. Here is the link again for it:
http://www.simhq.com/_air/air_031b.html
So back to where to put the bandit in relationship to your pipper. Andy does a great job laying out rules of thumb for it. Here's an example worth briefly discussing..
(http://www.simhq.com/_air/images/air_031b_13.jpg)
Source: Andy Bush, SimHQ - "Air to Air Gunnery Revisited"
Notice just how far away the bandit is in relationship to the pipper. The bandit is not anywhere near centered in the pipper because we have to aim and shoot at where the bandit is going to be. This is "leading" the bandit.
Andy talks about using the concept of bandit wingspan distances for lead. There is a whole theory around this that Andy elaborates on. Here the pipper is placed about 3 wingspan distance ahead of the bandit as visually measured from the pipper to the bandit (the pipper and bandit in the same 2D plane) from inside the shooter's cockpit.
In this specific example the amount of lead used here at 3 wingspans is based on the amount of angle-off of the target's tail the shooter is in relation to the target. The greater the angle-off, the greater the lead, the further out ahead of the target's flight path the pipper needs to be placed. The following illustration show's where the center of the pipper would be placed at 1, 2, or 3 wingspans away from the target demonstrating this idea.
(http://www.simhq.com/_air/images/air_031b_10.jpg)
Source: Andy Bush, SimHQ - "Air to Air Gunnery Revisited"
The general equation for lead is:
L = Vt x 1000 x sin(angle_off) / Vm
L = amount of lead (mils)
Vt = target velocity (ft/s)
angle_off = angle_off target (degrees)
Vm = average muzzle velocity of the round from firing to impact including your velocity (ft/s)
We mentioned angle_off already above but increasing Vt also means you have to shoot with more lead as well. In other words if a target was at the same angle_off but travelling at a higher speed than you would need to have to shoot with more lead than would have been the case at a slower speed but the same angle_off.
There are other factors to keep in mind as well: gravity, dispersion, projectile weight etc. but hopefully that whet's your appetite to go study up on Andy's articles :). Just one particular note- Andy talks about designing gunsights from AH. That was done for an older version of AH so not sure what parts of his talk there still apply or not.
SHOOTING FROM DEAD 6
One comment I think worth mentioning since people keep bringing it up- On shooting from dead-six, there's a factor that complicates the shooting dead-six that a lot folks don't realize and that's the concept of vertical convergence. Gravity pulls bullets down so guns are actually are set at some angle so that bullets arrive in the center of your pipper (if you were just shooting while flying level) at the convergence distance you desire. The following is a pic showing a sideview elevation of bullet trajectory for vertical convergence:
(http://www.simhq.com/_air/images/air_031a_3.gif)
Source: Andy Bush, SimHQ - "Air to Air Gunnery Revisited"
In this pic, the gun has been set for convergence at about 300 yards. The implication of this vertical convergence is that if the target is less than 300 yards than the bullet stream in relationship to the pipper is actually below the center point of the pipper at less than 300 yards. The closer the target is, the lower the bullet stream is below the center of your pipper. Therefore if your target is closer than your gun convergence then you will need to put the center of your pipper above your target to hit it.
Here is a short .WMV that I did to illustrate the point (guns set at 300 yds convergence on a P-51D). Note where the bullet impacts are in relationship to the gunsite depending on how close the target is to my plane. The closer the target, the lower beneath the center of the pipper the bullets hit.
http://brauncomustangs.org/films/gunrange.wmv
Hope that's helpful!
Tango, XO
412th FS Braunco Mustangs
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Crousader:
Various good advice given already in this thread but I want to revisit a particular topic. You commented that you understand the idea that you have to aim where the bandit will be. However you stated the following as well:
I bolded the key phrase for emphasis. Putting the bandit in the middle of your pipper is not aiming and shooting where the bandit is going to be. Assuming the bandit is turning you are already shooting behind the bandit if you're centering the bandit in your pipper.
Let me second Spatula's post. Don't let it get lost. Andy Bush's articles on SimHq are the best ones I have seen on the topic. The last thread Spatula posted is Andy's most concise gunnery article on the topic. Here is the link again for it:
http://www.simhq.com/_air/air_031b.html
So back to where to put the bandit in relationship to your pipper. Andy does a great job laying out rules of thumb for it. Here's an example worth briefly discussing..
(http://www.simhq.com/_air/images/air_031b_13.jpg)
Source: Andy Bush, SimHQ - "Air to Air Gunnery Revisited"
Notice just how far away the bandit is in relationship to the pipper. The bandit is not anywhere near centered in the pipper because we have to aim and shoot at where the bandit is going to be. This is "leading" the bandit.
Andy talks about using the concept of bandit wingspan distances for lead. There is a whole theory around this that Andy elaborates on. Here the pipper is placed about 3 wingspan distance ahead of the bandit as visually measured from the pipper to the bandit (the pipper and bandit in the same 2D plane) from inside the shooter's cockpit.
In this specific example the amount of lead used here at 3 wingspans is based on the amount of angle-off of the target's tail the shooter is in relation to the target. The greater the angle-off, the greater the lead, the further out ahead of the target's flight path the pipper needs to be placed. The following illustration show's where the center of the pipper would be placed at 1, 2, or 3 wingspans away from the target demonstrating this idea.
(http://www.simhq.com/_air/images/air_031b_10.jpg)
Source: Andy Bush, SimHQ - "Air to Air Gunnery Revisited"
The general equation for lead is:
L = Vt x 1000 x sin(angle_off) / Vm
L = amount of lead (mils)
Vt = target velocity (ft/s)
angle_off = angle_off target (degrees)
Vm = average muzzle velocity of the round from firing to impact including your velocity (ft/s)
We mentioned angle_off already above but increasing Vt also means you have to shoot with more lead as well. In other words if a target was at the same angle_off but travelling at a higher speed than you would need to have to shoot with more lead than would have been the case at a slower speed but the same angle_off.
There are other factors to keep in mind as well: gravity, dispersion, projectile weight etc. but hopefully that whet's your appetite to go study up on Andy's articles :). Just one particular note- Andy talks about designing gunsights from AH. That was done for an older version of AH so not sure what parts of his talk there still apply or not.
SHOOTING FROM DEAD 6
One comment I think worth mentioning since people keep bringing it up- On shooting from dead-six, there's a factor that complicates the shooting dead-six that a lot folks don't realize and that's the concept of vertical convergence. Gravity pulls bullets down so guns are actually are set at some angle so that bullets arrive in the center of your pipper (if you were just shooting while flying level) at the convergence distance you desire. The following is a pic showing a sideview elevation of bullet trajectory for vertical convergence:
(http://www.simhq.com/_air/images/air_031a_3.gif)
Source: Andy Bush, SimHQ - "Air to Air Gunnery Revisited"
In this pic, the gun has been set for convergence at about 300 yards. The implication of this vertical convergence is that if the target is less than 300 yards than the bullet stream in relationship to the pipper is actually below the center point of the pipper at less than 300 yards. The closer the target is, the lower the bullet stream is below the center of your pipper. Therefore if your target is closer than your gun convergence then you will need to put the center of your pipper above your target to hit it.
Here is a short .WMV that I did to illustrate the point (guns set at 300 yds convergence on a P-51D). Note where the bullet impacts are in relationship to the gunsite depending on how close the target is to my plane. The closer the target, the lower beneath the center of the pipper the bullets hit.
http://brauncomustangs.org/films/gunrange.wmv
Hope that's helpful!
Tango, XO
412th FS Braunco Mustangs
Thanks for the input. I hadn't even thought of the fact that the bullet stream is angled to converge vertically at the point you set!
I know about lead BUT you are correct, because of my difficulties with leading, G effects and losing the target below my cowl. I tend to search for the dead six shot hoping that all of these factors would be lessened if not negated by being right behind my opponent. I have been proven wrong time and time again
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what do you do about nose bounce when you're zoomed in that far? i have my dampning, and deadbands up, and i've scaled my inputs back fairly heavily, but it still bounces waaaayyy too much....only zoomed though.
I've been flying with maximum sensitivity in all axis for quite a long time and I've always flown with the same model stick. The end result is a very light touch on the controls. If you have a tight grip overcontrolling will result (same as in a high-performance airplane in real life). That is the first (and most important) step in reducing nose bounce. If you need more than one finger and a thumb to fly then you probably have too tight a grip.
The zoom is very short. I have it mapped so that it is in zoom when I hold the button and on release it returns to normal view so I am only in that view for actual shooting. The field of view is too small for anything other than the shot and on snapshots I don't zoom. A true snapshot won't be helped by zoom anyway.
The best way to learn to shoot is by shooting. Offline drones, DA furball lake, a buddy willing to let you shoot at him.
Theory is great but there is no substitute for doing.
And I am a recent convert to no tracers (~ 6 months). My gunnery in Warbirds was excellent but I spent 2 years in AH with average gunnery. Turn the tracers off and within a few weeks my gunnery improved 1000%.
Now I'm making shots that are instinctive and extremely accurate. I can't imagine ever turning them back on.
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One more thing.....
I have two separate buttons for machine guns and cannons (I pretty much only fly P38). I only use cannon for low G, close in shooting. The cannon drop is such that under more than 2 G you can't see the target and hit it with cannon. You are basically guessing (which you can get good at....most Luftwaffe flyers get good at this). I use the 50 cals for most shots and the P38 package usually doesn't need the 20MM to get a quick kill. I doubt I used the cannon for any of the shots in the films but who knows.
The ammo counter in the film tells a different story, You do use the 20MM, the order of the film according to the ammo counter is also different then the order of the films as numbered. According to the ammo counter the order of the films is film 1, film 4, film 2, Film 3 will not down load properly. according to the film you presented, the "quick Kill" were all aided by the 20MM. Who Knows? Anyone reviewing the films knows, just zoom in inside the cockpit and look at the ammo counters.
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Turn tracers off, go offline and work on the drones until you can 'one pass them' from every angle.
Practice makes perfect, there isn't a magic button to cause you to suddenly make easy kills.
Practice does make perfect, whether tracers are on or off if you can make one pass killes at every angle, tracers won't matter.
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The SimHQ images don't apply in every aspect. The real guns aimed up, the bullets arched upwards, then down to land on the target. They didn't pass straight out then down. AH models them so they pass up then down.
This means if you're flying in a plane with bad ballistics like a 109K-4 with 30mm gun, and set it all the way at max distance, the round can actually "lob" so high on the way to the target you will miss if lined up perfectly at a target only 250-300 yards away. My best suggestion on this is to record your films, note the distance you get killshots at (NOT the distance you open fire, or want to open fire, but the actual distance the target goes "boom") and set your convergence to THAT distance.
Regarding tracers: They clutter your screen. The white trails don't really tell you if the rounds are going too high or too low except in extreme cases. In my experience, I could almost never tell if my rounds needed a slight adjustment up or down. Instead, learning how to shoot with the tracers off has given me a much better hit% and a better chance of killing a target. I no longer waste my concentration on where the fuzzy smoke lines are and trying to figure out if they're in front of or behind the target, instead I focus on setting up a gunsight image where I think I can fire my guns with a "kill shot". I equate tracers more to spraying and praying than to lining up shots the proper way.
Just my opinion on tracers.
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The ammo counter in the film tells a different story, You do use the 20MM, the order of the film according to the ammo counter is also different then the order of the films as numbered. According to the ammo counter the order of the films is film 1, film 4, film 2, Film 3 will not down load properly. according to the film you presented, the "quick Kill" were all aided by the 20MM. Who Knows? Anyone reviewing the films knows, just zoom in inside the cockpit and look at the ammo counters.
Sure, enough when I was low G, close in I pressed the cannon button. Seems like that is when I said I used the cannon.
I didn't number the films in any particular order.
I still doubt I hit anything with cannon but it could be that I did. I'm glad you took the time to fact check and discover that I did use the cannon.
Thanks
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Make use of the Lead Computing Gunsight feature, and practice with it a bit to gain an eye for how much you need to adjust your lead in different scenarios.
To enable offline, Clipboard>options>arena setup>environment>arena settings>flightmodeflags
(http://trainers.hitechcreations.com/files/murdr/lcg.jpg)
Online it is already enabled in the Training Arena (http://trainers.hitechcreations.com/trainingarena/trainingarena.htm). To use it, all one needs to do is hit Ctl-tab to enable friendly lock, and tab to select the friendly target. Enemy lock is enabled by default.
(http://trainers.hitechcreations.com/files/murdr/lcg1.jpg)
If you have different gun types, it will display a lead crosshair for both types. The 20mm M2 and .50 cal M2 have similar muzzle velocities and ballistics at close range in the screen shot.
(http://trainers.hitechcreations.com/files/murdr/lcg2.jpg)
The 30mm Mk 108 on the other hand is slower and requires more lead than the 13mm MG 131s. Which really shows in the following high aspect screen shot.
(http://trainers.hitechcreations.com/files/murdr/lcg3.jpg)
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1. Turn your tracers off. They hide the hit sprites and let the enemy know you are shooting at him.
I find that a bad idea if you are having trouble. Spend some time in the TA with tracers on. Ask some people if you could practice your gunnery on them.
It takes awhile to learn how to shoot accurately from different angles and distances. Your best bet is to play around with shooting, seeing where your rounds land, and self-correcting.
**Look at murdr's post above, that is a great way to learn.
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The rule of thumb for shooting position and lead I use is this:
1) If I have a turn-rate advantage, whether innate or by virtue of relative speed, I prefer a lead pursuit somewhat in excess of that required for the current angle of deflection for a shot. Then when I am ready to fire I just relax it a bit for the actual shot angle. This forces the less maneuverable bandit to do some drastic, E sacrificing maneuver to spoil the shot or he's toast.
2) If I am at a turn-rate disadvantage, whether innate or by virtue of relative speed, I prefer a lag pursuit prior to firing, all other factors being equal. This allows me to conserve energy in anticipation of having to counter a radical maneuver by the bandit to get angles. If I tried to match or exceed his turn-rate to pull lead for an extended period he would bleed me dry if I did not score a killing blow immediately. When I am ready to fire I will get perfectly "in-plane" with him then pull lead for what amounts to a snap shot as I likely will not have the sustained turn-rate to hold that firing position for long on a more maneuverable foe.
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9 times out of 10 if people are really having trouble hitting, they are trying to shoot too far out.
Trying to figure the lead for a 400 + yard shot is more than twice as hard as doing the same for a 200 yard shot.
For every 100 yards you add to the distance you can figure 5 to 10x the difficulty. So if your having problems, start by pulling where you expect to shoot back in a bit. Remember 440 yards is 1/4 of a mile. Chances are you wouldn't try to hit a running deer with a rifle at those ranges.
Also depending on plane and armament, sometimes its better not to try to track them. But instead take snapshots as they cross your nose. For one, you have a much bigger, usually much closer target. A couple of good snapshot hits will often knock something vital off, leaving you with a much easier to win fight.
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9 times out of 10 if people are really having trouble hitting, they are trying to shoot too far out.
Trying to figure the lead for a 400 + yard shot is more than twice as hard as doing the same for a 200 yard shot.
For every 100 yards you add to the distance you can figure 5 to 10x the difficulty. So if your having problems, start by pulling where you expect to shoot back in a bit. Remember 440 yards is 1/4 of a mile. Chances are you wouldn't try to hit a running deer with a rifle at those ranges.
Also depending on plane and armament, sometimes its better not to try to track them. But instead take snapshots as they cross your nose. For one, you have a much bigger, usually much closer target. A couple of good snapshot hits will often knock something vital off, leaving you with a much easier to win fight.
Well Ghost, I was going to ask you if you had any training tips for learning to aim better. I know even after all these years its the one thing that gives me the biggest trouble.
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Sure, enough when I was low G, close in I pressed the cannon button. Seems like that is when I said I used the cannon.
I didn't number the films in any particular order.
I still doubt I hit anything with cannon but it could be that I did. I'm glad you took the time to fact check and discover that I did use the cannon.
Thanks
What you said was:
"I use the 50 cals for most shots and the P38 package usually doesn't need the 20MM to get a quick kill. I doubt I used the cannon for any of the shots in the films but who knows."
You used the 20MM for each of the kills recorded in the films you presented. True you only use the cannon when close in and I agree with that tactic, however, your doubt as to wether you used cannon for any of the recorded kills, well, the film you provided tells a different story.
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So would you like for me to post films where I don't use cannon and still get quick kills.
?
I've got three days off.
The point is 4 .50 cals packed in the nose of the P38 are sufficient to achieve kills.
As a side note I've figured out which end of Robert E. Lee's horse is your namesake.
PS...At least one of the films already posted is cannon-less.
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I'm not an expert by any stretch, but...
NOT using the traditional trigger (i.e. "meat-hooking" it with your index finger) has helped me a lot. I use my thumb for cannons. My hit % has improved since I have been using a different input for the MG and the Cannon. Just like shooting a weapon in the real world, pulling too hard on the trigger can affect your shot, and you won't even realize it.
what do you do about nose bounce when you're zoomed in that far? i have my dampning, and deadbands up, and i've scaled my inputs back fairly heavily, but it still bounces waaaayyy too much....only zoomed though.
I also have (my elevators) scaled back fairly heavily.
I've been flying with maximum sensitivity in all axis for quite a long time and I've always flown with the same model stick. The end result is a very light touch on the controls. If you have a tight grip overcontrolling will result (same as in a high-performance airplane in real life). That is the first (and most important) step in reducing nose bounce. If you need more than one finger and a thumb to fly then you probably have too tight a grip.
The zoom is very short. I have it mapped so that it is in zoom when I hold the button and on release it returns to normal view so I am only in that view for actual shooting. The field of view is too small for anything other than the shot and on snapshots I don't zoom. A true snapshot won't be helped by zoom anyway.
The best way to learn to shoot is by shooting. Offline drones, DA furball lake, a buddy willing to let you shoot at him.
Theory is great but there is no substitute for doing.
And I am a recent convert to no tracers (~ 6 months). My gunnery in Warbirds was excellent but I spent 2 years in AH with average gunnery. Turn the tracers off and within a few weeks my gunnery improved 1000%.
Now I'm making shots that are instinctive and extremely accurate. I can't imagine ever turning them back on.
Without being contrary, Dawger, I would have to disagree. Some of us do not have the same control over fine motor skills as do others. I also realized that rudder pedals were going to be a must as the twisty stick was only making me reach for the Advil :devil
(http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff107/tymekeepyr/DansArmXRay.jpg)
Practice Practice Practice !!!
Also, like others have said. Get CLOSE............
Then get CLOSER :aok
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I hope you were a lefty for those 'intimate' alone times. :devil
It sort reminds me when I was a trainer on AW, I asked a student if he had a HOTAS system. I was surprised when the raw newbie said he did and I told him it is generally better to have views with the hand that manipulates the throttle and not the stick. He came back with the one comment I didn't expect...
"OK, but I only have one hand."
He was a great student, a great guy, and had a great attitude about the game and life in general.
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I play the drums (although not as much as before) so I'm fairly ambidextrous. :aok
Only having one hand, though? That would be hard. Try tying your shoes with one hand. :O
I :salute that guy.
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I only fire when i'm at 200 yards or under. I have my convergence at 400 yards. However, 95% of my shots are under 200. Since a lot of my shots are at super high deflection angles, I usually don't see my target xplode. I usually half blacking out and coming out w/ a kill message. I don't know hwo to explain it. A lot of it is in my set up as I approach my target. Here are a few films that could help you see how I aim. Most of my kills takes about 10-20 rounds fired. On D-9 I usually hit 10 kills and a few assists by 250 cannon rounds fires. so bout 20ish rounds per kill. Usually a good 5 rounds will kill almost any fighter planes.
http://files.filefront.com/Airfield+Capping+2ahf/;11594440;/fileinfo.html
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Ive always found shooting from dead 6 is the hardest for me. Especially P38s..they are like shooting a razor's edge. Very thin.
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I'm not sure which stick you have but if it has multiple hats you can set one up so that it raises you in the seat. That way you can see where your tracers are going a wee bit better. This however depends on the type of plane. In the F4U's it helps only marginally because of the long nose.
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I only fire when i'm at 200 yards or under. I have my convergence at 400 yards. However, 95% of my shots are under 200. Since a lot of my shots are at super high deflection angles, I usually don't see my target xplode. I usually half blacking out and coming out w/ a kill message. I don't know hwo to explain it. A lot of it is in my set up as I approach my target. Here are a few films that could help you see how I aim. Most of my kills takes about 10-20 rounds fired. On D-9 I usually hit 10 kills and a few assists by 250 cannon rounds fires. so bout 20ish rounds per kill. Usually a good 5 rounds will kill almost any fighter planes.
http://files.filefront.com/Airfield+Capping+2ahf/;11594440;/fileinfo.html
Yenny's General Stats for Late War Tour 107
Total Sorties: 55
Total Sortie Time: 05:46:58
Sortie Type End Sortie Type
Fighter 3 Landed 5
Attack 52 Discos 1
Bomber 0 Bails 12
VehicleBoat 0 Ditches 3
FieldGunner 0 Captured 7
Deaths 27
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Yenny's General Stats for Late War Tour 107
Total Sorties: 55
Total Sortie Time: 05:46:58
Sortie Type End Sortie Type
Fighter 3 Landed 5
Attack 52 Discos 1
Bomber 0 Bails 12
VehicleBoat 0 Ditches 3
FieldGunner 0 Captured 7
Deaths 27
Picking a player apart based on those aspects of rank really doesn't have any bearing on this subject (aiming). Yenny's overall stats don't tell us whether or not he can hit what he's aiming at. Looking specifically at his fighter rank ( hit %) would be more applicable. Even that's worthy of some speculation (shooting primarily bombers?).
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If you're having trouble with aiming, I've never seen how turning your tracers off would help.
As someone whos taught many people how to shoot effectively in real life, one simple aspect has always come into play. They always need to know how they've been shooting, in order to see where correction is needed. The feedback of where past rounds went is vital. In real life we use a paper target for that, in air/air we use tracers for that. Once the basics are learned, that can be dispensed with, but getting rid of it too early results in a much longer, more discouraging learning period. And at the end of it, I can't say the student has mastered shooting any more as a result of a tougher learning period, but rather that they simply take longer to reach the same point. And taking longer to reach the same point allows the other student to progress even further beyond that point. I guess I don't see the advantage.
Imagine shooting at a flying clay target with a .22. Bird flies by, you fire and miss. Why did you miss? High, low, too much lead, too little lead, not swinging through? No feedback, since your bullet left no lasting mark on the sky... Now try again, but lets change the angle and speed of the target. You miss again. Why/where? What do you need to do to hit the target? Lets try again, but lets change the speed/angle of the target, and pull you around on a cart. Did you miss again? Why? Even if you do manage to hit one, why did you hit it? What did you do right? Or did you do something wrong that allowed your incorrect aim to result in a hit (held your cheek off the stock, maybe?). That could make things even tougher by teaching you to repeat the incorrect aim.
When shooting at flying clay targets with a shotgun, we even have feedback. Two forms come to mind. One, the flying wadding (even though it's not terribly reliable/accurate, it does give a rough idea...). And two, experienced shooters looking over your shoulder and giving feedback.
Is it possible to learn to shoot with no feedback? Yup. But it's time-consuming and discouraging. If we made the .22 rounds visible in flight your learning would be much quicker, and much less random. Even if the .22 round was visible, but not exactly accurate in it's perceived flight, it would be more helpful. For example, you could learn that the round needs to "appear" to fly directly in front of the target for a hit. You can easily progress in learning because you'll find your tracers going consistantly behind your target, or above it, etc, and learn to correct for that tendency. You can't do that without feedback form previous rounds fired.
What can you learn with no feedback? How quickly would you learn math if you were rewarded for correct answers, ignored for wrong answers, and no feedback was given for how you erred on the wrong answers?
I'd get closer, leave your tracers on, try the Lead Computing sight, and start trying to figure out where you're consistently missing, and why. Learning what would have made your past rounds hit will tell you exactly what you need to do to ensure hits in the future under similar situations.
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Picking a player apart based on those aspects of rank really doesn't have any bearing on this subject (aiming). Yenny's overall stats don't tell us whether or not he can hit what he's aiming at. Looking specifically at his fighter rank ( hit %) would be more applicable. Even that's worthy of some speculation (shooting primarily bombers?).
I've watched Yenny's films and he is in fact a good shot, consistently killing at all manner of deflection angles.
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Aim for where they are going to be-not where they are.
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Aim for where they are going to be-not where they are.
I know "where" they are going to be, its "when" that screws me up :(
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Somehow it is the "alignment" that gets me missing snapshots the most.
Say there is a crossing snapshot on somethings beam, I'll have sufficient lead and open fire in time but find that I'm shooting under or over.
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I know "where" they are going to be, its "when" that screws me up :(
What you firing fugitive? 50's, hispanos, the german stuff etc?
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What you firing fugitive? 50's, hispanos, the german stuff etc?
I'm an equal opportunity shot misser :) I spend most of my time in American iron, 38's, 51's, 47's. I do enjoy flying other planes. Spits for quick base defense, 109s when I have a bit of time to get up, and so on. I know jumping from plane to plane isn't helping me any, but like I said most of the time I'm in the american stuff.
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Mntman, first off on your clay targets example. Which btw is a great example.
But you don't start off trying to shoot them at 50 yards, with slugs. You start off with a shotgun, with an open choke, at 20 yards, with #8's, with someone watching over your shoulder. On a bet, I proved that in a hour I could shoot a silver dollar sized target hand thrown with a bb gun. Started with pop cans about 5 feet in the air, after 30 minutes I was able to work my way up and out till I was hitting washers with a tape over the hole as far up as he could fling them. And by the end of the hour I was nailing 4 out of 5. But you start small and close and work up to it. Feedback, yes. I agree, and yet.
On tracers, if your looking at your tracers that you just fired, what are you not looking at?
The enemy plane.
Granted tracers are a personal preference.
But most people in here with gunnery problems have been shooting with those tracers.
So sometimes the solution is to change the normal. Force them to concentrate on a new way.
Remove the habit, start over with changes.
Take away everything but the the sight, and the enemy plane. Then up a low slow turning plane, get them to get CLOSE, then hit you. Then start calling targets, left wingtip, right wingtip, tail, cockpit
With time, practice it is very possible to take someone with gunnery problems and in half an hour get them
back on the road to good shooting again.
It takes feedback yes, but thats MY job. :)
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I agree with Ghost on this one, removing tracers made the difference for me a long time ago. I do also feel the anyone firing 30mm should keep tracers enabled until they are very comfortable with their aim, as the muzzle velocity of most of these guns is pretty bad when compared to .50 cals or many 20mms.
Even using the lead computing site in the TA for more than an hour or so can make someone reliant on that 'crutch'. It is ok to use it to get a feel, but it can further frustrate someone in the long run.
My best advice is to take a plane up offline and work the drones until you can 'one pass' them from 180/0 degrees AoT, and gradually high speed snapshots 90 degrees AoT. I still do this if I have been offline for some time, just as warm up.
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But you don't start off trying to shoot them at 50 yards, with slugs. You start off with a shotgun, with an open choke, at 20 yards, with #8's, with someone watching over your shoulder. On a bet, I proved that in a hour I could shoot a silver dollar sized target hand thrown with a bb gun. Started with pop cans about 5 feet in the air, after 30 minutes I was able to work my way up and out till I was hitting washers with a tape over the hole as far up as he could fling them. And by the end of the hour I was nailing 4 out of 5. But you start small and close and work up to it. Feedback, yes. I agree, and yet.
That's awesome Ghosth! We used to do something similar. We'd toss a marble up with one hand, quickly shoulder the .22 and shoot it. That looks impressive, but is easy once you have the knack/timing. Teaching/learning an "advanced trick" is great, but it's just that. Something for someone who already has the basics down. If someone I was teaching couldn't hit a basic paper target I wouldn't switch him/her over to tossing stones or marbles in the air...
I do some trick shooting with my .54 flintlock rifle. I can shoot the flame off of a candle at 30 yds, standing position with no rest, and without touching the wax. From that same standing position, at the same range, I can cut a playing card in half by shooting through it edgewise, cut a piece of dental floss in half, shoot an axehead to cut my ball in half and break clay targets on either side, etc. I'm skilled enough to no longer need the feedback of where my bullet goes when I miss (as long as my rifle is sighted in). I didn't start out that way though. I learned the basics with a lot of feedback. There was a day I could shoot aerial clay targets with my bow, and even a slingshot, but I'm way out of practice now, hehe. I could probably still do it with the slingshot, since I still play around with that. I haven't shot my bows in 5 years :^(
Delirium- I agree excessive use of the lead computing sight can be detrimental, and should only be used as a starting point. I found myself watching the aim-point instead of the enemy plane way back when I first used it.
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I'm an equal opportunity shot misser :) I spend most of my time in American iron, 38's, 51's, 47's. I do enjoy flying other planes. Spits for quick base defense, 109s when I have a bit of time to get up, and so on. I know jumping from plane to plane isn't helping me any, but like I said most of the time I'm in the american stuff.
All I would say is try and not take the low pecentage shots, you seem to be using the best weapons for firing, could be lag or whatever, I'd say try and have a little more patience, get in close, go offline and just keep practicing, I use the tater a lot and that puppy drives me insane sometimes, I've now got a feel for where I sould be aiming so I'll see how the next few days pan out.
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I use to have trouble pulling lead, my solution was some reading online. I set a button on my joystick "View head position move left", and i also fly in the page up position. Both of these together allow me to avoid that pesky, dang i lost him under my nose moment. People turn hard i look around my nose and split them in half. Still gotta get into position to make that shot though, which i am still learning.
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When you know where the target is and where it's going, you don't need to see it under your nose to hit it.
What he needs to do is just practice self control. Don't fire the trigger until you're close. Until you're SURE you can't miss. Don't spray, and if you feel even a hint of praying (any uncertainty means you're not 100% sure of your shot) then just DON'T FIRE THE GUNS! Keep fighting, manuvering, positioning until you KNOW you've got a kill shot.
Try flying a plane with crappy ammo loads. All those RTBs with no kills under your belt will reinforce your self-training, and when you finally land any kills you can know you held your fire until you had a GOOD shot. This is very much in agreement with Ghosth's comments.
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When you know where the target is and where it's going, you don't need to see it under your nose to hit it.
What he needs to do is just practice self control. Don't fire the trigger until you're close. Until you're SURE you can't miss. Don't spray, and if you feel even a hint of praying (any uncertainty means you're not 100% sure of your shot) then just DON'T FIRE THE GUNS! Keep fighting, manuvering, positioning until you KNOW you've got a kill shot.
Try flying a plane with crappy ammo loads. All those RTBs with no kills under your belt will reinforce your self-training, and when you finally land any kills you can know you held your fire until you had a GOOD shot. This is very much in agreement with Ghosth's comments.
I agree with all of this.
- oldman
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Yenny's General Stats for Late War Tour 107
Total Sorties: 55
Total Sortie Time: 05:46:58
Sortie Type End Sortie Type
Fighter 3 Landed 5
Attack 52 Discos 1
Bomber 0 Bails 12
VehicleBoat 0 Ditches 3
FieldGunner 0 Captured 7
Deaths 27
when I used to play a lot it looks something like this.
Score Rank
Kills per Death + 1 7.92 41
Kills per Sortie 3.72 21
Kills per Hour of Flight 11.88 70
Kills Hit Percentage 13.97 61
Kill Points 99651.38 6
Fighter
Kills 934 0
Assists 213
Sorties 251
Landed 119
Bailed 8
Ditched 13
Captured 42
Deaths 65
Discos 4
Time hh:mm:ss 78:34:42
Rank 2
But since I'm gettin ready to deploy i'm forced to cancel my account=/. I'll be back some day though !
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When you know where the target is and where it's going, you don't need to see it under your nose to hit it.
What he needs to do is just practice self control. Don't fire the trigger until you're close. Until you're SURE you can't miss. Don't spray, and if you feel even a hint of praying (any uncertainty means you're not 100% sure of your shot) then just DON'T FIRE THE GUNS! Keep fighting, manuvering, positioning until you KNOW you've got a kill shot.
Try flying a plane with crappy ammo loads. All those RTBs with no kills under your belt will reinforce your self-training, and when you finally land any kills you can know you held your fire until you had a GOOD shot. This is very much in agreement with Ghosth's comments.
I know where the guy is going to be, I know he's under my nose at 200 out, I know we are in a 2 G turn, I know I have to unload the Gs and take my shot burst, but the "when".... too soon, too late, rarely on time.
Being 100% sure it's the time to shoot, almost never. My confidence in my aim is about nil these days. I have a film of a recent fight....fight LOL well after the LA blew his first couple of passes he decided I wasn't the easy target he wanted so the chase was on :) First couple of shots are in the 100-400 range, both crossing shots both missed because I was late. Next cross I get hit he's streaming white smoke and really ready to run now. I'm in a ponyB so I chase him, for over two minutes at ranges of 400-200. I shoot burst after burst, most going over him, some hitting, finally get a wing tip, he continues on, finally take his tail off and he goes down. "PatriotB" a teammate that was trying to get in position through most of the fight jokingly ask if I have any ammo left :cry Hes right, took more than half my load for one stinking LA !
I jokingly add in the film that I can pretty much out fly anybody, I just can"t hit them ! I then catch Dred at the top of a rope about 500 out with a singe burst that takes his tail off :rolleyes: Some day I'll get it all together.
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I've been noticing a lot more rudder use these days. It's quite hard to predict lead for a blind nose low-deflection shot if the bandit is throwing in some timely rudder yaw. This is the biggest reason I stick with planes with great nose-low deflection views. Using planes with good nose-low deflection views is generally good practice for improving your aim via visual feedback re-enforcement, which is also another reason to leave tracers on while learning, it builds your mind's visual, mental shot library much more quickly. Another suggestion is to choose a particular type of weapons package system and stick with it forever or at least until your aiming confidence is extremely high. For example...
1) Nose/Cowl or Wing Guns
2) Mixed Ballistics, cannon and mg. or Single type.
3) Slow RoF weapons or high RoF weapons.
Keeping all of that the same, one way or another with whichever plane(s) you choose, helps a lot. I've found if you switch that stuff up all the time it really messes up your brain's aiming computer. This is especially true of the wing guns vs. nose/cowl gun systems as with nose/cowl guns you only have to compensate for G's and angle of attack not convergence.
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When you know where the target is and where it's going, you don't need to see it under your nose to hit it.
What he needs to do is just practice self control. Don't fire the trigger until you're close. Until you're SURE you can't miss. Don't spray, and if you feel even a hint of praying (any uncertainty means you're not 100% sure of your shot) then just DON'T FIRE THE GUNS! Keep fighting, manuvering, positioning until you KNOW you've got a kill shot.
Try flying a plane with crappy ammo loads. All those RTBs with no kills under your belt will reinforce your self-training, and when you finally land any kills you can know you held your fire until you had a GOOD shot. This is very much in agreement with Ghosth's comments.
I agree with parts of this- and disagree with primarily the last part.
I agree completely with the "get close" aspect. And I agree with picking your shots, and waiting until you're sure the shot is a good one (one you can hit). And I agree with the "no spraying" aspect.
I personally hold my shots to D200. Maybe D400 if I'm too slow, and the guy is pulling away, and I'm trying to scare him into turning. Maybe D400 if I'm closing fast, and don't think I'm going to be at my "sweet" range of D200 long enough . I may begin shooting at D400 on bombers too, since I know I can hit them, and want/need a bit of extra firing time. D600 for me is simply to score a few pings and hopefully influence my opponent into a turn. He's getting away, and I need him to turn so I can get closer and have a better profile for a shot.
As for picking your shots, waiting for a good one, I agree there too- mostly. I would definately try to set up some nice, high-probability shots, then aim carefully, shoot carefully (in small bursts) and appraise the result. Adjust aim a bit, and try again if needed (and it probably will be). Paying attention to the shot situation, making a judgement on aim, and testing your hypothesis is really the only way to learn. If you miss, try a small adjustment, and see if that helps. If not, adjust again.
Spraying is bad for a few reasons at least. One, it wastes ammo, and it also doesn't give you the crisp feedback of a small shot-stream. With a long stream for your target to fly through you do have a better chance to score a few hits. But you won't figure out the aiming, leads, etc nearly as precisely, since you won't know if you hit him with the beginning or ending rounds in that long stream. In a long stream you're probably also varying your G-loading, which plays a huge factor in aim-point as well.
However- waiting for the perfect shot will get you killed, especially at first. It'll cause you to miss opportunities that good shots could have been used effectively, and maybe that was your only good opportunity in that fight. Waiting too long can make the fight last longer too, which gives you more time to screw up and/or get joined by other planes (maybe bad guys!) So, I wouldn't wait for "perfect" set-ups, I'd wait for "good" set-ups, and, like in hunting, take the first "good" shot presented. It may be the only shot presented. Get killed a few times waiting for perfect shots, and I bet you'll get discouraged, lose patience, and start making some bad shot choices. You won't learn to make the tough shots by not taking them.
The last idea is one I completely disagree with. The crappy ammo load idea.
Crappy ammo load planes present several obstacles to learning. One, low ammo count, and two, generally poor ballistics with a weapon (probably some big cannon of one sort or another) that's tough to hit with. Not only is it tough to hit with, it won't help you learn how to shoot the majority of the guns in the game, it'll teach you to shoot with that one oddball gun. Another aspect, is that IMO it can lead to sloppy shooting, since all you need to do is get lucky and hit with one shell. A lucky hit is too effective. Random lobbing can be rewarded with a lucky hit, leading to success, leading to repeating the process... You win that fight, but learn a bad habit.
The biggest detriment IMO to a low ammo load is the reduced amount of shooting possible. I know the theory is that low ammo count will lead to a more concentrated effort to aiming. It also leads to less practice. Practice makes perfect. Less practice makes less perfect. No practice makes no perfect. A .50 cal plane with a large ammo count will give you about 13-16 seconds of practice time per flight. That's about the best you can do. .50s are easy to hit with (positive reinforcement), but require a concentrated fire on a small area (spraying won't work so hot- neither will firing under high or differing G-loads). They also shoot "flatter" making hitting easier at varying ranges, but again, require concentrated firing on a small area (limiting effectiveness to near convergence, which I recommend you set close, say 250-300)(I'm talking wing mounted guns). Unless you hit the pilot, you won't get as many "golden BB's" with .50s as you do with cannons. That's a good thing when learning, it''ll force you to concentrate. And you'll have enough ammo to practice a bit. The time to limit ammo is after the basics are learned- when you're trying to refine the behavior. Not when you're learning the behavior.
Get close, take careful shots, practice a lot, and pay attention to where you miss and why, so you can correct it next time. Look for your general trends- do you shoot too high quite often? Not lead quite enough almost all the time? And don't shoot at the enemy plane. The easiest way to miss a deer is to shoot at it. Aim for a specific point on that target. I personally aim for the spot the windscreen meets the cowl if possible, and pick a different target if it's not (wingtip?). If you're just shooting at his plane, you're not concentrating enough. And any hit on that big area will serve as a "success". If I aim at the cockpit, and hit the tail, I screwed up, and will mentally try to correct for that next time. Sure, I may have won with that tail shot, but it was luck, not aim... If I aim at the cockpit, and hit it, I get a big explosion (positive reinforcement). If I miss it, but hit the engine, wings, fuselage, tail, it registers in my mind as an "Oops, better fix that!", but also teaches me where I screwed up (not enough lead?) so I can adjust (visual feedback, which my tracers will give me if I really mess up).
Lots of reading, sorry. Skip it if you want...
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I think 50cal planes have way too much ammo. Especially navy planes and p47s. You fall into the pattern of telling yourself "okay, just one more attempt, rats, missed, wait, one more try, damn, missed!" and you get too fixated on some minute aspect that you get blinders.
I would say THE plane that helped me hone my aiming skills was the 109F-4. I'd be lucky if I could get 2 kills with 200 rounds of 20mm nose cannon. Once I got to 4 kills per single-ammo-load I knew that I was improving simply by the end results.
Other low-ammo, but normally-armed planes (i.e. no taters or anything) would include the spit5, the 109s with only 1x20mm nose gun, US planes with low ammo counts (F4F, FM2, P40E, and I suppose the P51D), and a few others. Planes that make you feel it when you totally miss. It's a given you'll get reinforcement when you hit, but the idea was to have a rap on the knuckles when you miss. The rap would be having to RTB empty.
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I think 50cal planes have way too much ammo. Especially navy planes and p47s. You fall into the pattern of telling yourself "okay, just one more attempt, rats, missed, wait, one more try, damn, missed!" and you get too fixated on some minute aspect that you get blinders.
I would say THE plane that helped me hone my aiming skills was the 109F-4. I'd be lucky if I could get 2 kills with 200 rounds of 20mm nose cannon. Once I got to 4 kills per single-ammo-load I knew that I was improving simply by the end results.
Other low-ammo, but normally-armed planes (i.e. no taters or anything) would include the spit5, the 109s with only 1x20mm nose gun, US planes with low ammo counts (F4F, FM2, P40E, and I suppose the P51D), and a few others. Planes that make you feel it when you totally miss. It's a given you'll get reinforcement when you hit, but the idea was to have a rap on the knuckles when you miss. The rap would be having to RTB empty.
Fm2 has a silly firing time something like 400+ rounds per gun. Yak-u is good for honing skills.
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I would say THE plane that helped me hone my aiming skills was the 109F-4. I'd be lucky if I could get 2 kills with 200 rounds of 20mm nose cannon. Once I got to 4 kills per single-ammo-load I knew that I was improving simply by the end results.
This same scenario plays out regardless of ammo load in any plane. For example, to tailor it to my situation I could say there was a point were I could only get 2 kills with the ammo in my F4U, but now find it to be enough for over a dozen kills.
Too much ammo? I think you're confusing "too much ammo" with "less dedicated/concentrated or lower quality practice". Having more ammo in no way means you can't practice seriously with it. Sloppy practice won't yield good results, but neither will good practice if it's too limited. A lot of high quality practice is the best of both worlds.
Do you prescribe to a "less practice will make you better" notion? Or a "less practice will force you to get better" notion? Do you know of other skills where this pans out? Is there a situation where no (or very little) practice could make you an expert?
I do understand the point you're trying to convey though. I like to think that all my shooting with a single-shot muzzleloader has helped me a lot, where a multi-round clip might have hindered me. It's more of a trial to fire a gun that takes 30 seconds to reload, than to run through a clip of .22 shells. In actual fact though, it took a lot of practice to get better. Round after round after round. And I wasn't exclusively shooting a single-shot. I've thrown thousands of rounds downrange, and they've all contributed to the skills I now possess. Had I limited myself to the single-shot it would have taken me longer to learn, simply due to a slower gain in experience. Running through clip after clip of .22 rounds taught me much that enables me to be more effective when I'm holding my muzzleloader. Firing 100 (or more) rounds in windy conditions teaches me more than firing 10 rounds in the same conditions.
Taken to the extreme- how much better would you be today, had your plane been limited to 10 rounds? Or one round? Imagine how much you'd be forced to concentrate. Imagine how much of a rap on the knuckles a miss would be then! Maybe the 200 round clip hindered you more than it helped?
For that matter, maybe limiting military shooters to single shot weapons with limited ammo would improve their abilities? Maybe rapid loading/firing weapons are leading to the demsie of the worlds military skills?
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Just my thoughts on the discussion...
I would not completely discount, or blanket perscribe either the weak ammo load, the no tracers, or the LCG. It depends on what aspect needs worked on, and what the shooters knowledge base is.
Most gunnery problems are a lack of lead, which means they are shooting at the wrong sight picture. The LCG shows you what the sight picture should be for a variety of scenarios. It shows all levels of players how they need to be correcting their sight picture.
No tracers is an option for a player who has been around long enough to know what to expect from AH's various gun ballistics. It forces the shooter to look for the correct sight picture rather than walking their way into the correct picture with the tracers.
Weak ammo load forces the shooter to be more picky about the quality of sight picture they should be looking for. That can be helpful if that is really what the shooters problem is, but it's also completely inappropriate for newer players who have a host of other flight issues to be working on.
What a newer player needs is pleanty of firing time to develop what I've taken to calling "a mental library of sucessful sight pictures". So that means something with a durable ammo load, and preferably something maneuverable and E forgiving to put them in a position to use their guns.